Does anyone have experience with property fence issues?

[MEmama]

25 minutes ago, Eos said:

Damn they are being so annoying.  Could you ever buy that strip from them?  Agree with getting a new survey if there's any doubt.

I think if both parties agree it is possible to legally change the property line. I would be in favor of that as a solution, it seems fairly straightforward. We would then let our mortgage company know so we could start paying the tax. I’ll look into that option, though I suspect they won’t go for it. 

[TechWife]

I am so sorry. We have an attorney who is a pain next door to us as well. I agree with others that you need to get your lot surveyed and to talk to an attorney of your own. Honestly, the attorney might have someone they use for the survey. You may have a right to use the property since the fence has been there so long. The attorney may have you look for the oldest picture that you have that includes the fence. 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

The narrow side yard for reference, taken last summer

I can see why you would be sad to lose that 😞 

[Mom_to3]

That's an amazing side yard! Google adverse possession or acquiescence laws in your state. Can you find out how long that fence has been in that position? If it's well above the time frame for your state, and depending on how the law is phrased, you may actually own the land already, and it may be your property line (no survey needed). 

I am not an attorney, but we were in a very similar situation (very narrow lot with lots of established plantings on our side, so a lot at stake in our case as well; our property value would have taken a big hit just from loss of curb appeal). Research the law before you talk to the neighbors. They may just give up if they realize you know the law. Don't let them pull that fence out before resolving this, as that fence may be the only evidence of the property line. If needed, get a free consultation with an attorney, but I'd do the research yourself first to see what the law says. Also think about what you can prove regarding age of the fence. Good luck!

[plansrme]

Absolutely get a survey; perhaps your neighbors will want to split the cost with you, as you both need to know where the line is, but if they want to move their fence farther onto their property, they can. A traditionally- offset fence is highly unlikely to give rise to any right of adverse possession to land that you know perfectly well is not yours. Fences simply do not create boundary lines in modern subdivisions. Short of buying the land from him, which may not be possible if you are in a subdivision that prohibits splitting of lots, I'm not sure what you expect the neighbor to do or what in the world your simmering distrust has to do with anything. Your neighbor is exercising his obligation to maintain his fence and will be erecting a new fence on his property. He was neighborly-enough to give you notice; what is so sinister about that? The fact that you've treated the strip of land as yours does not mean he is evil or acting in bad faith.

[I talk to the trees]

39 minutes ago, plansrme said:

Absolutely get a survey; perhaps your neighbors will want to split the cost with you, as you both need to know where the line is, but if they want to move their fence farther onto their property, they can. A traditionally- offset fence is highly unlikely to give rise to any right of adverse possession to land that you know perfectly well is not yours. Fences simply do not create boundary lines in modern subdivisions. Short of buying the land from him, which may not be possible if you are in a subdivision that prohibits splitting of lots, I'm not sure what you expect the neighbor to do or what in the world your simmering distrust has to do with anything. Your neighbor is exercising his obligation to maintain his fence and will be erecting a new fence on his property. He was neighborly-enough to give you notice; what is so sinister about that? The fact that you've treated the strip of land as yours does not mean he is evil or acting in bad faith.

Goodness gracious! What an aggressive post! The OP never said “simmering distrust”. She described the neighbors as having a “simmering ruthlessness” about them, in other words, their actions have caused her to have a negative gut feeling of concern. She mentioned that she and her dh have gone out of their way to promote good neighborly relations, to the extent that her dh has handled repairs on *the neighbor's fence* because the neighbor was neglecting it, and it was damaging *her* property. And now, rather than replacing or repairing the fence as is stands, the neighbors are being petty and demanding that she remove a garden which provides significant benefits to the OP's family. (Check out the cost of fresh raspberries and herbs the next time you shop for groceries.) Furthermore, until a survey is completed, she does not know “perfectly well” that the land doesn’t belong to her and her dh! Which is why so many of us have jumped in and suggested researching the laws and having a survey done prior to the fence's replacement. There is no need for them to give in to cantankerous bullies just because the bullies say so!

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, plansrme said:

Absolutely get a survey; perhaps your neighbors will want to split the cost with you, as you both need to know where the line is, but if they want to move their fence farther onto their property, they can. A traditionally- offset fence is highly unlikely to give rise to any right of adverse possession to land that you know perfectly well is not yours. Fences simply do not create boundary lines in modern subdivisions. Short of buying the land from him, which may not be possible if you are in a subdivision that prohibits splitting of lots, I'm not sure what you expect the neighbor to do or what in the world your simmering distrust has to do with anything. Your neighbor is exercising his obligation to maintain his fence and will be erecting a new fence on his property. He was neighborly-enough to give you notice; what is so sinister about that? The fact that you've treated the strip of land as yours does not mean he is evil or acting in bad faith.

As I have clearly stated, I do not live in a modern subdivision (have you read my posts?). Nor am I accusing anyone of being sinister or evil. I honestly don’t know what has prompted your anger.

I came here with this issue to ask for advice, and thanks to the generosity and kindness of posters who have been through similar disputes and/or have knowledge of them, I have received it in spades. I have learned that fencing issues are complex yet common, and have learned what questions to ask at my Town Hall and what to further research for my state because as it stands, the rights either of us have are unknown and I would be remiss to not do my due diligence. I am truly grateful for the support.

I also believe I am entitled to be sad. If I lose part of my small garden I will very likely come back here and ask for advice on how to handle it graciously in order to maintain a semblance of good neighbourliness, even if my heart won’t be in it for awhile. I think that’s fair too. In no way does that imply that I think my neighbors to be evil people; I don’t know where anyone would get that idea but suffice it to say that’s just terribly off base. 

[MEmama]

28 minutes ago, I talk to the trees said:

Goodness gracious! What an aggressive post! The OP never said “simmering distrust”. She described the neighbors as having a “simmering ruthlessness” about them, in other words, their actions have caused her to have a negative gut feeling of concern. She mentioned that she and her dh have gone out of their way to promote good neighborly relations, to the extent that her dh has handled repairs on *the neighbor's fence* because the neighbor was neglecting it, and it was damaging *her* property. And now, rather than replacing or repairing the fence as is stands, the neighbors are being petty and demanding that she remove a garden which provides significant benefits to the OP's family. (Check out the cost of fresh raspberries and herbs the next time you shop for groceries.) Furthermore, until a survey is completed, she does not know “perfectly well” that the land doesn’t belong to her and her dh! Which is why so many of us have jumped in and suggested researching the laws and having a survey done prior to the fence's replacement. There is no need for them to give in to cantankerous bullies just because the bullies say so!

Thank you. More than I can express. ❤️

[Bootsie]

20 minutes ago, I talk to the trees said:

Goodness gracious! What an aggressive post! The OP never said “simmering distrust”. She described the neighbors as having a “simmering ruthlessness” about them, in other words, their actions have caused her to have a negative gut feeling of concern. She mentioned that she and her dh have gone out of their way to promote good neighborly relations, to the extent that her dh has handled repairs on *the neighbor's fence* because the neighbor was neglecting it, and it was damaging *her* property. And now, rather than replacing or repairing the fence as is stands, the neighbors are being petty and demanding that she remove a garden which provides significant benefits to the OP's family. (Check out the cost of fresh raspberries and herbs the next time you shop for groceries.) Furthermore, until a survey is completed, she does not know “perfectly well” that the land doesn’t belong to her and her dh! Which is why so many of us have jumped in and suggested researching the laws and having a survey done prior to the fence's replacement. There is no need for them to give in to cantankerous bullies just because the bullies say so!

I am not sure that I thoroughly understand the situation, but if the area allows for people to put a fence on a property line, and someone buys a property and wants to construct a fence on their property line, I am not seeing how that is being petty or a cantankerous bully.  It is an unfortunate situation indeed.  If there is confusion over who owns the property and where the property line is, that is one thing.  But, if I use someone else's property for a few years and then that person wants to use their property, the fact that my use of their property provides significant benefits to me, does not make them petty.  

[goldberry]

Curious about being forced to pay for part of a fence. How can that be done? What if you just don't have the money? That seems so strange to me.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, goldberry said:

Curious about being forced to pay for part of a fence. How can that be done? What if you just don't have the money? That seems so strange to me.

Me too.  Lots of people just don't have fences.  I don't see how someone else can compel you to pay for a fence.  

[Melissa in Australia]

10 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Curious about being forced to pay for part of a fence. How can that be done? What if you just don't have the money? That seems so strange to me.

It is the norm here in Australia.  Here There are very clear rules about fences. The fence goes in the property line, both neighbours have to pay half for a standard fence. If one wants a fancier fence the other neighbour only pays the price of a standard fence. A standard fence is a 6 foot high wood fence.   If one neighbour does all the labour the other neighbour still pays the price of half of a standard fence. Just about all properties are fenced. Especially in towns and cities. I live rural so the standard fence is barb wire. If the property line in in dispute, both neighbours split the cost to find out where the property line is 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

The fencing rules here https://www.justice.vic.gov.au/fencing-law-in-victoria

[Bootsie]

16 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Curious about being forced to pay for part of a fence. How can that be done? What if you just don't have the money? That seems so strange to me.

We have some subdivisions in which all backyards are fenced.  Fences were provided with the original construction and it is part of deed restriction or HOA that all yards must be fenced.  The fences are placed along property lines and the property owners are jointly responsible for the fence and replacement if needed.  

We have other neighborhoods for which fences are not required.  Neighbors can agree to share a fence.  Or if one chooses to have a fence and pays for the fence the neighbor nextdoor cannot "tie" a fence to the existing fence.  In other words if your neighbor places a fence between the yards, you can not then build a little fence and gate perpendicular to, and connecting to, that fence to then have your own yard fenced.  You can put your own perpendicular fence and gate, but you cannot have any connecting hardware to the neighbors fence (so there is technically a gap between the fences).  

[Clarita]

I grew up in a clear property line area. Fencing was placed at property lines, and everything was fenced. (Seriously even the front yard had super clear delineations. To now where I live in a blurry property line area, I absolutely feel for you. My husband has had to bring out the survey map to prove to a neighbor he was building his fence 5 feet into our property. I would suggest even if this issue can be resolved without a survey get one anyways for yourself.

[Tap]

 

(((hugs))) it is hard to have to reinvision your property on the smaller side of what you have always known!

You are not alone. I have a similar property line, where the previous owners built the fence about 18 inches inside their property. I have always known this, so when I do plantings on that side, I always allow for the extra 18 inches of green space. It is mostly rock in that area, but I do have a small tree that is maybe 15 feet tall that I would lose if they ever decided to reclaim it.  It was a shrub when we put it in, but in 20 years, it has definitely morphed into tree size. There is another area, that they fenced around an existing tree in the corner of their property. That land is on my side of the fence, so when I planted there, I put in a hydrangea, so if they decided to claim that back, the plant would live on, on their side of the fence. I plan to refence next summer if prices are affordable, and I will need to talk to them before I do. I know they can't afford to pay to help with the cost, so I will be paying for it all. I hope I am able to keep the extra land, but we will see how they feel about the fence line at that time. 

[Ausmumof3]

I have to admit I’m a bit mind blown to learn that it’s common to have areas where there’s no fencing between yards there.

[Melissa in Australia]

38 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I have to admit I’m a bit mind blown to learn that it’s common to have areas where there’s no fencing between yards there.

me too. it seems a very strange and different from the way we live custom.  I can see endless fighting. I don't really understand how it works in practice.  I would be terrified of kids going missing. I guess people have to sit outside and watch their kids instead of let them play in the back yard.  No wonder people in USA all seem to have their dogs inside. they don't have fenced backyards to let them run around and be a dog.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I have to admit I’m a bit mind blown to learn that it’s common to have areas where there’s no fencing between yards there.

We have a mix in our neighborhood, but it’s mostly unfenced, especially front yards. People just mow/rake their half of the grass, or if it’s narrow between the properties either neighbor will tend to all of it. With the exception of unusual situations like shared driveways, I don’t think there’s much to cause problems. Some backyards are fenced, but not all. Because it’s an old neighborhood the lot sizes and shapes vary, ours is very small and enclosed but some yards are huge and open. 
 

Sometimes the property lines are clearly marked by old horse hitching style posts, granite markers or a simple stake.

[Ausmumof3]

19 minutes ago, MEmama said:

We have a mix in our neighborhood, but it’s mostly unfenced, especially front yards. People just mow/rake their half of the grass, or if it’s narrow between the properties either neighbor will tend to all of it. With the exception of unusual situations like shared driveways, I don’t think there’s much to cause problems. Some backyards are fenced, but not all. Because it’s an old neighborhood the lot sizes and shapes vary, ours is very small and enclosed but some yards are huge and open. 
 

Sometimes the property lines are clearly marked by old horse hitching style posts, granite markers or a simple stake.

we are big on fencing. if there’s about a foot between two houses there’ll be a fence there.

 

[MEmama]

27 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

we are big on fencing. if there’s about a foot between two houses there’ll be a fence there.

 

I’m sure there are plenty of areas in the US that are similar. It’s far too varied here to have a “typical” way of doing things— anything at all, really. I’m sure that’s obvious by the posts on this board! 🙂 

[Janeway]

I have a fence property issue, but do not know how to resolve.

But, in the past, for the fence, for us, neighbors split the cost of repairing the fence, no matter whose line it is on. The part that floors me with your issue though, is they had the nerve to expect you to move your shed, which was already there when you bought the house. That changed things but I am not sure what to do about it.

[Janeway]

I will say that my property line issue is that the fence that was put up is in to our yard. I did not realize it right away until I went and looked at that plat maps. The neighbors took about 8 inches or so in to our yard. This takes off a significant amount of our fence. I like our neighbors and they have been nothing but kind, so no point in bringing it up now. If the fence ever gets replaced again, I will bring it up then. 

In your case, I would find out where the property line is exactly and make sure they do not come in to your yard for fence placement. I would find out very soon and I would put up markers. 

[kristin0713]

4 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I have to admit I’m a bit mind blown to learn that it’s common to have areas where there’s no fencing between yards there.

The houses in my parents’ neighborhood, where I grew up, are about 1/2 or just under 1/2 acre. Most people who have a fence have it because they have a pool and mostly they just fence in the pool area. The new next door neighbors were an anomaly last year when they fenced in their entire back yard, 6 inches in from the property line. It was the talk of the neighborhood for weeks 😂 The three surrounding houses (two sides and behind) including my parents were all in a tizzy because they didn’t realize where the line actually was. My mom had to modify landscaping, the neighbor behind refused to move her garden and it almost got ugly (but the new neighbors relented on that) and everyone was confused about who will take care of the landscaping right at the fence. It’s more complicated now because it’s more work for the surrounding neighbors to deal with this new fence, but the fence owners need to go on everyone else’s property now to edge the 6 inches of grass surrounding their fence on all sides. It’s just weird compared to how it always was and less community oriented. Very different from subdivisions that have smaller yards where they are all fenced and even share fences right on the property line.  

Edited March 24, 2022 by kristin0713

[kristin0713]

Oh and also, I had to move the invisible fence for our dog and fortunately I realized before they cut it by mistake. 

[shawthorne44]

One money-saving idea on a survey.   If you know someone with a metal detector that you could borrow you can find the buried property markers yourself.     Since your yards are small there likely won't either on the two corners most important to you.     But there will be some not too far away.    With the metal detector and one of those laser-things used in home construction it isn't hard to mark your property line yourself.   

Of course for you the problem isn't so much where the property line is but where the fence can be put.   

Your photo reminded me of a similar fence in my first house.  It was a starter home development where everyone had their back yards fenced, and since they had that fence they also fenced their side yard.   My next door neighbors didn't have a fence at all.    The problem was that just outside my master bedroom was my narrow side yard, then their wide side yard, then their kitchen/concrete porch/sliding glass doors.      That meant that I always had to keep my bedroom curtains completely closed because their kitchen sink looked straight in my bedroom.   When they sold the house, the flippers put in a fence.   I opened a window and leaned out when they were building it.   The guy got defensive pointing out where the property line was.    I said, "I'm just happy there is a fence."   He built it 6" in.  

 

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, shawthorne44 said:

One money-saving idea on a survey.   If you know someone with a metal detector that you could borrow you can find the buried property markers yourself.     Since your yards are small there likely won't either on the two corners most important to you.     But there will be some not too far away.    With the metal detector and one of those laser-things used in home construction it isn't hard to mark your property line yourself.   

Of course for you the problem isn't so much where the property line is but where the fence can be put.   

Your photo reminded me of a similar fence in my first house.  It was a starter home development where everyone had their back yards fenced, and since they had that fence they also fenced their side yard.   My next door neighbors didn't have a fence at all.    The problem was that just outside my master bedroom was my narrow side yard, then their wide side yard, then their kitchen/concrete porch/sliding glass doors.      That meant that I always had to keep my bedroom curtains completely closed because their kitchen sink looked straight in my bedroom.   When they sold the house, the flippers put in a fence.   I opened a window and leaned out when they were building it.   The guy got defensive pointing out where the property line was.    I said, "I'm just happy there is a fence."   He built it 6" in.  

 

Our neighbors don’t use blinds and we can see directly in to their kitchen, bathroom (yup) and one of their bedrooms where the husband sometimes likes to walk around naked. Ugh. Since our kitties like our shades open and will rip them up if they aren’t, we can’t always keep ours closed so we just try our best to not look that direction. I guess we are pretty private people, I just can’t understand wanting to be that much on display! 
Of course we’ve never said anything. I figure adults ought to realize that glass windows are transparent. 
 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Most backyards are fenced here (here as in my town, not the entire US). Especially if people have dogs. I personally think that it should be a requirement to have a fenced back yard if you have a dog. (I  know that not everyone agrees but it is my strong opinion for what it’s worth). My understanding is that some areas of the country have HOAs that don’t allow fences. I never understood that but then I don’t really understand HOAs!  
 

Neighbors on both sides paid for half the cost of the backyard  fence. Dh and one neighbor worked together to put in one side. Dh and I did all the work on the other and those neighbors insisted on paying for all the supplies since they said that dh’s labor constituted our “payment “.  
 

We had renters on one side who were brazenly letting their dogs come over to poop on our lawn while they watched. Talking to them did nothing. I got so angry one day that I went out to Home Depot with the kids, and the kids and I put up a short wire fence in an afternoon. No problems after that. Fences really can make good neighbors.