Ukraine

[kbutton]

24 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Does anyone have a source that actually plays what the former President said in entirety or reports in entirety.  Because even reading the short and abbreviated part that I read, you can tell it is  said sarcastically.  And in reporting on some other news outlet (not an ally of that President), the report said he gave conflicting statements about Ukraine in those remarks  which seems to go along with my impression that the so-called praise was actually sarcasm.

 

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, Frances said:

It’s pretty sad when he leaves many wondering if it was sarcasm or not in regards to something so very important. Being plain spoken in this situation seems very important. 

No one is wondering. He says what he means. Nothing remotely new here.

But you know that as well as I do.

Bill

 

[Frances]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

No one is wondering. He says what he means. Nothing remotely new here.

But you know that as well as I do.

Bill

 

I think those experiencing strong cognitive dissonance are wondering because the alternative might be too difficult to deal with.

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, DreamerGirl said:

Flabbergasted at the words of someone who I thought will lead the condemnation. 

I have words, but will be banned so I shall 😷. 

Last thing this world needs after the past almost 3 years is WWIII.

What was that quote about people who do not learn from history. 

Not to be picky and not super relevant to the thread but I feel like another emoji would be better for staying quiet than a mask one? Too many people already think of it as an imposition on the freedom of speech without reinforcing that idea.

This is not aimed at you particularly I’ve seen it used that way a few times and had the same thought.

[TravelingChris]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I think those experiencing strong cognitive dissonance are wondering because the alternative might be too difficult to deal with.

When you read the  fuller remarks above, you will see that I am not having any cognitive dissonance. 

And I agree with you about how his speaking style is not very good at all.  The current one's is even worse.  I mean, saying that our response for a little incursion would be different from a big incursion, gave a green light to what has happened.

[goldberry]

43 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Does anyone have a source that actually plays what the former President said in entirety or reports in entirety.  Because even reading the short and abbreviated part that I read, you can tell it is  said sarcastically.  And in reporting on some other news outlet (not an ally of that President), the report said he gave conflicting statements about Ukraine in those remarks  which seems to go along with my impression that the so-called praise was actually sarcasm.

Cause you can definitely think someone is making smart moves while not thinking that those are moral.  

OH I finally found it- very obvious he was not saying it is a good thing that Russia was invaded.  In fact, he called it very sad.  Earlier, he said other words that made it clear he was not saying this was a good thing.

He wasn't saying the invasion was good, but he was not being sarcastic about Putin.  He admires Putin's strategy.  Which is an anti-democratic and dictatorial strategy to get what he wants at whatever cost.

[Frances]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

When you read the  fuller remarks above, you will see that I am not having any cognitive dissonance. 

And I agree with you about how his speaking style is not very good at all.  The current one's is even worse.  I mean, saying that our response for a little incursion would be different from a big incursion, gave a green light to what has happened.

I did read the full remarks. How people continue to defend the indefensible is beyond me. Cognitive dissonance is the only rational explanation that makes any sense to me.

Your final sentence is not worthy of response, so I will refrain.

[KSera]

50 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

OH I finally found it- very obvious he was not saying it is a good thing that Russia was invaded.  In fact, he called it very sad.  Earlier, he said other words that made it clear he was not saying this was a good thing.

Did you find the full, full remarks? Because he wasn't calling the invasion sad. He was calling the current president that.

11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

When you read the  fuller remarks above, you will see that I am not having any cognitive dissonance.

Did you follow the link to the full transcript, not just that quote? I can see someone convincing themselves from just that quote out of context that it must be sarcastic, but when read in context, I can't see any way to interpret it that way.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, KSera said:

Did you find the full, full remarks? Because he wasn't calling the invasion sad. He was calling the current president that.

Did you follow the link to the full transcript, not just that quote? I can see someone convincing themselves from just that quote out of context that it must be sarcastic, but when read in context, I can't see any way to interpret it that way.

And he was also lying when he said it. He first said, “There was no response from Biden.”
 

Same old, same old. Rinse and repeat.

[kbutton]

30 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I mean, saying that our response for a little incursion would be different from a big incursion, gave a green light to what has happened.

The Dispatch's morning newsletter discusses the pros and cons related to the severity of sanctions. It's not a black and white situation.

https://morning.thedispatch.com/p/the-morning-dispatch-the-west-responds?utm_source=url

I don't have a free version to share, but maybe someone has an article discussing those pros and cons that is free. 

[KSera]

It sounds like explosions are being heard in Ukraine 😪.

The President's statement:
Statement by President Biden on Russia’s Unprovoked and Unjustified Attack on Ukraine

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by KSera

[prairiewindmomma]

CNN is reporting their sources in Kyiv and Kharkiv (NE Ukraine) are hearing explosions. https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/h_27279159c134bb2b7e5e367f19656214

[kbutton]

Do we know what their targets in Kyiv are likely to be? 

[prairiewindmomma]

NZ news carrying similar reports, and mentioning more cities: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/ukraine-crisis-russia-declares-war-on-ukraine-reports-of-explosions-in-kyiv-putin-sends-warning-about-interference/NMAHHIPL6GMCRQT74YCSHSNP34/

[prairiewindmomma]

India Today agreeing with NZ news that Putin declared war on Ukraine: https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/world/story/russia-ukraine-conflict-explosions-in-kyiv-kharkiv-putin-declares-war-1917082-2022-02-24

[prairiewindmomma]

I am watching the UN Security Council meeting now. Ukraine addressed the council and now Russia is…multiple places are carrying it live.

[Roadrunner]

Oh god. 
Putin is calling it self defense and asking Ukrainians to lay down arms (Russian sources NTV.ru)

 

 

 

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

Oh god. 
Putin is calling it self defense and asking Ukrainians to lay down arms (Russian sources NTV.ru)

 

 

 

W.T.H? He is absolutely evil!

[Starr]

I read that would be his set up.

[Mom_to3]

Expected, but absolutely devastating.

[Roadrunner]

Explosions 15 minutes apart. Kiev (and this is according to MSNBC) is being hit by missiles. 

 

Mariupol, Borispol, and Belgorod - massive explosions. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by Roadrunner

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

When you read the  fuller remarks above, you will see that I am not having any cognitive dissonance. 

And I agree with you about how his speaking style is not very good at all.  The current one's is even worse.  I mean, saying that our response for a little incursion would be different from a big incursion, gave a green light to what has happened.

The decision had already been made. All that could be done was buy time and give warnings. Those who were/are being targeted got the chance to leave. That’s no small feat.

[Sneezyone]

58 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Do we know what their targets in Kyiv are likely to be? 

Military. Satellite/air defenses.

[bibiche]

nm 

Edited February 24, 2022 by bibiche

[Roadrunner]

+communication systems.

 

that’s how it starts. 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I did read the full remarks. How people continue to defend the indefensible is beyond me. Cognitive dissonance is the only rational explanation that makes any sense to me.

Your final sentence is not worthy of response, so I will refrain.

It is totally, completely indefensible. The corruption/collaboration of formerly ‘hawkish’ elements of the U.S. is complete.

[Sneezyone]

Lindbergh, anyone?? We’ve been here before. My ONLY sympathy is for the citizens of Ukraine.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[SoCal_Bear]

I just befriended a Ukranian homeschooling family who fled Kyiv and arrived her on 1/28. THe mom is American and the husband is Ukranian. They were able to come to stay with her family. They left everything behind. His entire family is still there and their community. They have no income because their jobs were there. They can't claim refugee status because there is no official war. His status is in limbo because they have to apply for a green card now and he can't work here legally. She is pregnant and due with child #3. I just can't imagine. The kids are traumatized. They were forced to leave behind their dog. They don't know if they can ever go back and what they would be going back to. They giving his family all their money and resources to try to leave Kyiv. It's awful and heartbreaking.

 

[Ausmumof3]

 

[Roadrunner]

I believe they now cut the power in Kiev.

I really just can’t even breath. 

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It is totally, completely indefensible. The corruption/collaboration of formerly ‘hawkish’ elements of the U.S. is complete.

Sadly it’s more of the same upside down world we now live in here in the US. Right is wrong, the ends justify any means, lying is good and honesty is bad, the immoral is justified and explained away, authoritarian dictator/dictator wannabe leaders are praised and admired, because lies and misinformation about the possibility of things being even worse are believed more than actual reality. 

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I believe they now cut the power in Kiev.

I really just can’t even breath. 

As much as I hope this doesn’t turn into a world war STARTED BY A MADMAN in RUSSIA, NOT A GAFF-PRONE SEPTUAGENARIAN, history is written by the victors. As sirens go off over the heads of families JUST LIKE US, I hope folks get right with God and stop magnifying false equivalencies.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

As much as I hope this doesn’t turn into a world war, STARTED BY A MADMAN in RUSSIA, NOT A GAFF-PRONE SEPTUAGENARIAN, history is written by the victors. A sirens go off over the heads of families JUST LIKE US, I hope folks get right with God and stop magnifying false equivalencies.

What false equivalency? What did I miss?

[Melissa in Australia]

I think the war has begun

dr karl Kruszelnicki was on the abc radio just now for his regular weekly science thingy. He himself is Ukrainian/ / Polish. He said anyone who lives in the Southern Hemisphere should be  counting their blessings right now. 

 

 

wish some of you would stop your political squabbling . Why dont you take it to the political club? The rest of us don’t want the thread shut down.

[Sneezyone]

56 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

What false equivalency? What did I miss?

There’s a narrative circulating that this situation was caused by everything other than the insecurity and ideology of Putin. That’s it; that’s all. No one else wanted or caused this. Appeasing him, like Chamberlain (and the last admins) was a delay, not a solution. His zealous opposition to having a powerful, NATO-allied neighbor is what caused this. Full stop. Nevermind that Ukraine isn't in NATO, he saw a threat and acted on it.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I think the war has begun

dr karl Kruszelnicki was on the abc radio just now for his regular weekly science thingy. He himself is Ukrainian/ / Polish. He said anyone who lives in the Southern Hemisphere should be  counting their blessings right now. 

 

 

wish some of you would stop your political squabbling . Why dont you take it to the political club? The rest of us don’t want the thread shut down.

It’s not political. At this point, it’s FACT. Crazy men must be confronted and defeated. There is no appeasement. National borders and politics are irrelevant.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

14 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There’s a narrative circulating that this situation was caused by anything other than the insecurity and ideology of Putin. That’s it; that’s all. No one else wanted or caused this. Appeasing him, like Chamberlain (in the last admins) was a delay, not a solution.

I must have missed some posts. I can’t even right now. 
I think I am going to take some pills and attempt to sleep now. I am having issues breathing.

 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I must have missed some posts. I can’t even right now. 
I think I am going to take some pills and attempt to sleep now. I am having issues breathing.

 

I hope you feel better soon. I am grateful DH is no longer forward deployed. He's not. **I am still concerned for our friends.**

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Melissa in Australia]

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s not political. At this point, it’s FACT. Crazy men must be confronted and defeated. There is no appeasement. National borders and politics are irrelevant.

People squabbling about what former leaders of USA might or might not have meant or said IS political.

[Spy Car]

Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

People squabbling about what former leaders of USA might or might not have meant or said IS political.

Calling a democratic leader in Australia a "dictator" isn't political?

Bill

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Melissa in Australia said:

People squabbling about what former leaders of USA might or might not have meant or said IS political.

Um, he said what he said. Interpretations are opinion. At the end of the day, we are where we are because PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE with an assist/cosign from elements in the U.S. (MY COUNTRY) who approve(d) of his tactics, publicly and on the record. Those are historical events.

[Melissa in Australia]

24 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There’s a narrative circulating that this situation was caused by anything other than the insecurity and ideology of Putin. That’s it; that’s all. No one else wanted or caused this. Appeasing him, like Chamberlain (and the last admins) was a delay, not a solution. His zealous opposition to having a powerful, NATO-allied neighbor is what caused this. Full stop. Nevermind that Ukraine isn't in NATO, he saw a threat and acted on it.

I don’t think anyone is disputing this.

also there was provocation. Nothing is ever one sided, ever, never in the whole history of wars anywhere

but do we really need to have fights about this? Really?

 

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I don’t think anyone is disputing this.

also there was provocation. Nothing is ever one sided, ever, never in the whole history of wars anywhere

but do we really need to have fights about this? Really?

 

What provocation did you see, observe, read about? As to the bolded, fight? No. Clarify? Yes.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Melissa in Australia]

I will bow out and leave you all to your squabbling.

 I guess you all will be happy then

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

I will bow out and leave you all to your squabbling.

 I guess you all will be happy then

No, most of us will be happy when people can lay their heads to bed at night, with one another's children in peace. That's a hard thing to come by overall but it's especially devastating when carnage is initiated by 'superpowers' who can and should exercise restraint.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What provocation did you see, observe, read about? As to the bolded, fight? No. Clarify? Yes.

I think it has to do with the expansion of nato perhaps as his reasoning, but also, Ukraine is rich in natural resources. Either way, he’s a dictator. Scary times we are living in— the world is so different, so quickly. 😔

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

I think it has to do with the expansion of nato perhaps as his reasoning, but also, Ukraine is rich in natural resources. Either way, he’s a dictator. Scary times we are living in— the world is so different, so quickly. 😔

Of course it does but, he, *ONE MAN* doesn't get to dictate what other sovereign nations do. It's pathological thinking and we need to recognize it as such. Labeling it strongman or genius to find a pretextual basis on which to invade another nation is wrong. Putin said "Countries that interfere with Russia will face 'consequences you have never seen'". This is not a man who seeks peaceful resolution. He's cray. AGAIN...We've seen this before. History is repeating itself. Sadly.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Ting Tang]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Of course it does but, he, *ONE MAN* doesn't get to dictate what other sovereign nations do. It's pathological thinking and we need to recognize it as such. Labeling it strongman or genius to find a pretextual basis on which to invade another nation is wrong.

My only mental image of Putin is having seen him pose shirtless on a horse. That tells me all I need to know about him. It scares me— a man who may have no limits. 😔. I was just answering what the perceived provocation was on his end. I’m with you. Putin and Xi. My husband said Brazil may be an ally to Russia?

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

My only mental image of Putin is having seen him pose shirtless on a horse. That tells me all I need to know about him. It scares me— a man who may have no limits. 😔. I was just answering what the perceived provocation was on his end. I’m with you. Putin and Xi. My husband said Brazil may be an ally to Russia?

Orban and Bolsonaro are watching, waiting, to see what the world does.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Sneezyone

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The decision had already been made. All that could be done was buy time and give warnings. Those who were/are being targeted got the chance to leave. That’s no small feat.

 

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

There’s a narrative circulating that this situation was caused by everything other than the insecurity and ideology of Putin. That’s it; that’s all. No one else wanted or caused this. Appeasing him, like Chamberlain (and the last admins) was a delay, not a solution. His zealous opposition to having a powerful, NATO-allied neighbor is what caused this. Full stop. Nevermind that Ukraine isn't in NATO, he saw a threat and acted on it.

Hey, it is completely caused by Putin since it is his decision.  He is bent on getting back the former parts of the Soviet Union.  And China is bent on getting back Taiwan;