Funds threatened in library over homosexual materials

[heartlikealion]

Update: conflicting info on what is really being debated. See lower posts for more info. I attended the city hall event and stuck around after. 
—————————

I thought we'd already established, as a society, that it makes no sense to remove what someone considers offensive materials from libraries. Where would it end? 

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/mississippi-mayor-withholds-library-funds-over-lgbtq-books

I've read a couple articles on it. I tried not to cackle when I read that a bunch of self-described furries have donated funds to offset costs (disclaimer: just found it really random, this isn't a jab at anyone). The whole thing sounds like a weird movie. There is a meeting tonight at their city hall. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by heartlikealion

[Tanaqui]

Undoubtedly the library has a process for residents to raise concerns about books and request removal. That is the appropriate way for this all to be handled - not through mayoral fiat.

[MercyA]

48 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

The whole thing sounds like a weird movie. 

This is what I say to my husband all the time about the last few years...

[Farrar]

I just read today about a school district that banned Dragonwings. I can't even anymore.

[Faith-manor]

I have often wondered if the counter to all of this nonsense, in order to cause people to think, would be to counter protest for the banning of the Bible in libraries. Genocide, incest, rape, kidnapping, child sacrifice, sex trafficking, all manner of gory violence, homosexuality, magic, ...it is rated X for sure. So if other books must be banned for graphic or offensive content why not the Bible? Seems like a massive double standard.

I mean people wanted Harry Potter banned from school here and its got nothing on a good read of the book of Judges!

[Frances]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I have often wondered if the counter to all of this nonsense, in order to cause people to think, would be to counter protest for the banning of the Bible in libraries. Genocide, incest, rape, kidnapping, child sacrifice, sex trafficking, all manner of gory violence, homosexuality, magic, ...it is rated X for sure. So if other books must be banned for graphic or offensive content why not the Bible? Seems like a massive double standard.

I mean people wanted Harry Potter banned from school here and its got nothing on a good read of the book of Judges!

Also seems like a massive double standard to decry certain speakers being disinvited at some colleges and complain about censorship by Facebook, Twitter, etc. when they remove blatantly false dangerous information and ban users who continually violate their policies, while trying to not allow certain books to be held or used in some public libraries or schools. I don’t agree with the universities in most of the speaker cases, but private universities and businesses can do as they please.

[historically accurate]

I currently work in a library, and we're getting flack from loads of people for "Magical Story Hour". On the other hand, it's one of our more popular programs. It consists of a story with a magic theme read online, some book rec's with magical themes, and a time slot to come in to make magical things like "potion" bottles (beads, glitter, and oil to make them move like a lava lamp). It's done monthly for the winter season. 

I would not put it past our mayor to do similar to the one mentioned in the article - you could've knocked me over with a feather when I attended the city council meeting (to help present the budget for the library) and they opened with (explicitly Christian) prayer. My director says we're already on thin ice for being the "witches" of XX town, so I was not to make a scene, but I really wanted to.

An example of the type of messages that are currently being sent to the librarian who hosts Magical Story Hour:
 

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. The bible states that no sorcerers will enter into heaven. Witchcraft is listed as a work of the flesh in which no man or woman who do such things shall enter the kingdom of God. The reason is that witchcraft and sorcery all find their roots in satanism and come from Satan himself. For century's these practices have involved child sacrifices where some person kills a child and then drinks their blood. Such practices in the eyes of a holy God are abominable. Jesus warned in the gospels that it would be better for a person to tie a millstone around his or her neck and be cast into the sea and drowned then to offend a little child. All these satanic practices corrupt the minds and hearts of such little children. Such little children were made in the image of God. I hope this will pursue you to change your mind and actions in promoting these satanic practices and encourage you to turn your hearts to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Thank you and God bless you."

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by historically accurate

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

I currently work in a library, and we're getting flack from loads of people for "Magical Story Hour". On the other hand, it's one of our more popular programs. It consists of a story with a magic theme read online, some book rec's with magical themes, and a time slot to come in to make magical things like "potion" bottles (beads, glitter, and oil to make them move like a lava lamp). It's done monthly for the winter season. 

I would not put it past our mayor to do similar to the one mentioned in the article - you could've knocked me over with a feather when I attended the city council meeting (to help present the budget for the library) and they opened with (explicitly Christian) prayer. My director says we're already on thin ice for being the "witches" of XX town, so I was not to make a scene, but I really wanted to.

An example of the type of messages that are currently being sent to the librarian who hosts Magical Story Hour:
 

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. The bible states that no sorcerers will enter into heaven. Witchcraft is listed as a work of the flesh in which no man or woman who do such things shall enter the kingdom of God. The reason is that witchcraft and sorcery all find their roots in satanism and come from Satan himself. For century's these practices have involved child sacrifices where some person kills a child and then drinks their blood. Such practices in the eyes of a holy God are abominable. Jesus warned in the gospels that it would be better for a person to tie a millstone around his or her neck and be cast into the sea and drowned then to offend a little child. All these satanic practices corrupt the minds and hearts of such little children. Such little children were made in the image of God. I hope this will pursue you to change your mind and actions in promoting these satanic practices and encourage you to turn your hearts to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Thank you and God bless you."

 

 

Wow. Just wow. I can't even....

All I can say is this is not a theocracy, and the religious fanatics need to shut up. Don't like what the library has to offer, don't go to the library. Simple. Don't they have a book that says something like, "Be ye not of the world"? Well, the library represents the world. They should just stay home.

 

[Farrar]

This anti-magic crap comes in waves. And every times it comes it eventually dies out and I think, okay, finally, good grief. And then it starts back up again. Y'all heard about the giant book burning in Tennessee where they burned Harry Potter and Twilight, right? Like, Twilight?!? Who the heck is still reading Twilight?! They can't even figure out what current popular thing to hate on so they have to pick something nearly twenty years old.

[Farrar]

Oh, and there are people who file joke/protest reports complaining about the Bible. There's SO MUCH there that's really offensive if you're going to go by today's standards, so it's pretty easy to trick the book banners into agreeing to ban a book where there's infanticide, rape, men having sex with women decades younger, etc. as long as you just don't mention that it's the bible.

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

This anti-magic crap comes in waves. And every times it comes it eventually dies out and I think, okay, finally, good grief. And then it starts back up again. Y'all heard about the giant book burning in Tennessee where they burned Harry Potter and Twilight, right? Like, Twilight?!? Who the heck is still reading Twilight?! They can't even figure out what current popular thing to hate on so they have to pick something nearly twenty years old.

It reminds me of when there was a boycott of "Good Omens" against Netflix except that wasn't the streaming service carrying the show. Good grief. A. If you don't like it, don't watch it. B. It is hard to take these folks seriously when they can't even get a simple fact straight like "Who is it that carries the show the preacher said we can't watch?" 

[Sneezyone]

It’s cray. I’m not sure how students are supposed to ever be able to put this in context without being presented with news (dates removed) from years gone by. It’s a thing people do to restrict information/ideas. Always.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Sneezyone

[heartlikealion]

Sooooo I drove out of the way to the meeting mainly to support librarian friends. I think there’s been a lot of misunderstandings. I hope the articles update with more clear info but I don’t know what to believe. Misquotes, retracting statements or misunderstandings. The mayor was asked directly tonight if he was trying to ban books and he said no. A few people said the issue was a particular display and the fact that it was in the Children’s section. This display included books such as Love is Love and The Queer Bible. I stayed afterwards and spoke to a reporter (off the record) to inquire about a local article and the guy that questioned the mayor. The whole thing is ridiculous as the arguments were about 2 different things. A display vs censorship. I argued a little about what is/is not the librarian’s responsibly as far as keeping kids away from adult displays (if not placed in the Children’s area). He was shocked I remember the curtain in movie rental places lol I said libraries don’t have curtains and not all are 2 story. Where should they put controversial book displays? Basically their answer was up out of reach or the librarian should shoo the kid from the area. 

I was told I “believed lies” because I believed the several articles that said the mayor was trying to ban books. I think that was the mayor’s son that said that to me lol they said go to the source and I said well you can’t expect every person to go to the source every time they read an article. 

Probably  was a waste of gas but now I heard from “the source” I guess. Still don’t know what’s true. Seems like a bad game of telephone. 

[heartlikealion]

2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I currently work in a library, and we're getting flack from loads of people for "Magical Story Hour". On the other hand, it's one of our more popular programs. It consists of a story with a magic theme read online, some book rec's with magical themes, and a time slot to come in to make magical things like "potion" bottles (beads, glitter, and oil to make them move like a lava lamp). It's done monthly for the winter season. 

I would not put it past our mayor to do similar to the one mentioned in the article - you could've knocked me over with a feather when I attended the city council meeting (to help present the budget for the library) and they opened with (explicitly Christian) prayer. My director says we're already on thin ice for being the "witches" of XX town, so I was not to make a scene, but I really wanted to.

An example of the type of messages that are currently being sent to the librarian who hosts Magical Story Hour:
 

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. The bible states that no sorcerers will enter into heaven. Witchcraft is listed as a work of the flesh in which no man or woman who do such things shall enter the kingdom of God. The reason is that witchcraft and sorcery all find their roots in satanism and come from Satan himself. For century's these practices have involved child sacrifices where some person kills a child and then drinks their blood. Such practices in the eyes of a holy God are abominable. Jesus warned in the gospels that it would be better for a person to tie a millstone around his or her neck and be cast into the sea and drowned then to offend a little child. All these satanic practices corrupt the minds and hearts of such little children. Such little children were made in the image of God. I hope this will pursue you to change your mind and actions in promoting these satanic practices and encourage you to turn your hearts to Jesus in repentance and faith.

Thank you and God bless you."

 

 

A prayer was said. Along with the pledge of allegiance. Maybe that’s normal. But I don’t get the prayer in a non religious setting. 

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, heartlikealion said:

A prayer was said. Along with the pledge of allegiance. Maybe that’s normal. But I don’t get the prayer in a non religious setting. 

The Supreme Court has upheld the right for volunteer chaplains to open government meetings with prayer. 

I object more to the Pledge. 😉 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MercyA

[heartlikealion]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

The Supreme Court has upheld the right for volunteer chaplains to open government meetings with prayer. 

I object more to the Pledge. 😉 

They both feel weird to me lol Like even if it didn’t say under God it just feels like hey let’s get together and worship this object

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I currently work in a library, and we're getting flack from loads of people for "Magical Story Hour".

Okay. I understand how people arrive at the decision to not allow their children to read books that involve sorcery. As a tangental example, I didn't allow my young child play with toy guns because I didn't want her to "play at" killing, just like I wouldn't want her to pretend to steal. (Now that she is older she chooses her own entertainment.) I also thought, before I was a parent and for a time after, that I wouldn't allow my young child to read books about magic. I thought it might inform her play in a direction I didn't want it to go; namely, acting out spells or similar things. I've since changed my position, but it was something I took seriously at the time.

All of that to say these people have reasons for thinking like they do. They are not all crazy wakadoos. Many are just trying to follow their understanding of Scripture in raising their children.

That said, since we don't live in a theocracy, and we do live in a country which allows free speech, I don't know why anyone is surprised to find books they don't care for or programs with which they disagree at a *public library*. Any citizen of any town has the right to express their opinions about the books and resources their tax money pays for--but they should be prepared to hear that the library *does not just serve them* but others as well.

If you have objections to what your children might find at your library, go with them and help them choose their books. Isn't that what people do until children are older and can make their own informed decisions?

[Stacia]

3 hours ago, historically accurate said:

I currently work in a library, and we're getting flack from loads of people for "Magical Story Hour". 

Funny how the bible has stuff like:

Giant flood that kills everyone (bye, humans + most animal life!) except a dude and his family + selected pairs of animals, all living on a giant boat together;

A different dude living in the stomach of a whale;

Virgin birth;

Seas parting so people can walk through them;

Feeding masses by (magically?) creating extra food & drink;

A dude walking on top of water;

A flaming bush that speaks.

And more. (Not to mention the excessive violence, sex, and perversion.)

But none of that is considered magic. Those are miracles.

🙄

(Nevermind that thousands have lost their lives through the ages fighting over those stories.)

Are the local vacation bible schools hit with protests and complaints for their "magical story hours"?

Edited February 16, 2022 by Stacia

[MercyA]

18 minutes ago, Stacia said:

But none of that is considered magic. Those are miracles.

🙄

Many of us believe in those miracles as a matter of faith. I don't care if you don't, but the eye roll is a little rude, don't you think? 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MercyA

[Melissa Louise]

Harry Potter is being burned on the left and the right, so...

Moral is, don't mess with books? 

 

[Stacia]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

Many of us believe in those miracles as a matter of faith. I don't care if you don't, but the eye roll is a little rude, don't you think? 

No, I don't actually because non-believers are routinely subjected to public prayers (in supposedly secular settings), religion in our government (supposedly there's a division between church and state but they look intertwined pretty often), engraved messages on our public buildings and money, access to public library materials routinely challenged because of it, etc. We are surrounded by it, trampled by it, inconvenienced by it, yet are supposed to accept it and be nice. If we speak out against it we are told it's rude.

An eyeroll emoji feels polite at this point.

[heartlikealion]

21 minutes ago, MercyA said:

If you have objections to what your children might find at your library, go with them and help them choose their books. Isn't that what people do until children are older and can make their own informed decisions?

This is more or less my stance. But these grown men were telling me that kids DD’s age or thereabouts might pick up the pretty book about homosexuality (rainbow colors etc) and read some of it causing an unwanted circumstance for the guardian. I was like really, you think they will read pages out of it? One man went on to tell me he thinks masking children is child abuse. I know I got really loud at one point. I lost my cool lol I was like what other book displays shouldn’t be out because a child might open it? Civil rights books with a picture of someone being hosed?? Stephen King books? What if they read some of it and it’s gory. We went back and forth. We didn’t leave in anger. I just said I think you may need to adjust your expectations of the staff to monitor. Kids under like ~10 aren’t even allowed to be left at the library (he was talking about kids dropped off etc). 
I personally don’t know what I think is a “reasonable expectation” of staff. I sorta see his point but feel like Mom & Dad should be directing the kids away from books, not the staff. 

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Stacia said:

No, I don't actually because non-believers are routinely subjected to public prayers (in supposedly secular settings), religion in our government (supposedly there's a division between church and state but they look intertwined pretty often), engraved messages on our public buildings and money, access to public library materials routinely challenged because of it, etc. We are surrounded by it, trampled by it, inconvenienced by it, yet are supposed to accept it and be nice. If we speak out against it we are told it's rude.

An eyeroll emoji feels polite at this point.

I understand (and sometimes may share in) an eyeroll at what some Christians are doing. I don't think an eyeroll emoji applied to our religious beliefs is in keeping with the spirit or rules of this board. 

But, you know, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I get the frustration. 

[Stacia]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

I understand (and sometimes may share in) an eyeroll at what some Christians are doing. I don't think an eyeroll emoji applied to our religious beliefs is in keeping with the spirit or rules of this board. 

But, you know, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I get the frustration. 

Please feel free to report my post. 

[heartlikealion]

I don’t think of miracles as magic but I can see how someone might lump them together. Magic is something I associate with non religious things usually. In Harry Potter the girls are witches but I never see them as Wiccan. 

I had a priest that loved HP. It always amused me. 

[heartlikealion]

I'm viewing footage from various news stations and they showed clips of the library display (which I believe is not even up right now) and some of the books in question. You can tell that actually, some are children's books. My Shadow is Pink, Grandad's Camper, and Bling Blaine were prominently shown in some footage. So that's a lie that it was all adult books in a children's section. The news outlets of course didn't point out that the mayor said "no" when directly asked tonight if he was banning books. Man, I should have been a reporter. haha 

Edited: or there was more than one display?? It's super confusing. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by heartlikealion

[Carrie12345]

A public library? The kind of place I devoured Stephen King and Danielle Steel as a kid?  In my case, with my mother’s knowledge and permission… cuz, you know, she took me there. And I think the library rule was no drop offs until high school, and even then only because we were writing papers pre-internet.

[historically accurate]

8 hours ago, MercyA said:

The Supreme Court has upheld the right for volunteer chaplains to open government meetings with prayer. 

I object more to the Pledge. 😉 

Felt really off because the mayor himself led it and it was blatantly Christian, not even a remote possibility of some other higher power. He ended with, "In Jesus' Name". It was pretty in-your-face-Christian. As a former Christian, I was not impressed with it. Super unwelcoming to non-Christians in my opinion. 

But as the director said, "We're here to fight for funding. We can't fight God too."

[Faith-manor]

I think we need a prime time public service announcement along the lines of, "Libraries, museums, public pools, McDonalds, the mall, the city park, etc. are not daycare centers, nor are any staff members of these facilities responsible for the content your child is exposed to so if you worry about what they might see, hear, read, or do, then you better accompany them at all times. Parents who engage in bogus, time consuming, whining about this will be charged $50 per incident which goes directly to the facility that had to listen to this crap for their employee after hours margarita fund. Failure to pay the fine results in a one year ban from the facility for all humans living at the address of the whiner." 

It is no different than an atheist dropping their kid off at a Vacation Bible School, and then going bananas about the Bible content. I mean just wow! 

It isn't hard to think logically about this. Taxes support libraries. Taxes are taken from the public for this purpose. This makes the library a public place. Therefore, it will reflect or should reflect the diversity of the tax paying public. My eldest grandson's best friend is like a sister to him, and she has two mommies, and is raised in an atheist home but with grandparents on one side who are Catholic, and grandparents on the other who are Reformed Jewish. She has a right to go to the library and see that there are books about people and families like hers, and those can and should be on display the same as ones about WASP families, and Wicca families, and Muslim families, and Hindu families, families with no daddy, and families with no mommy, and ..... This nation is supposed to be "The Melting Pot" and of all the places in the world that should reflect that pot, it should be the public library.

We are rapidly descending into a state in which only one narrow definition of acceptable beliefs, family, entity of worship, approach to parenting, life, basis for public life, etc. is considered acceptable, and is being rammed down our throats despite a constitution that says this is wrong. That is not good, and those doing the ramming need to remember that historically the rammers eventually always come to no good end. Karma is not kind. You will "reap what you sow". 

[Faith-manor]

24 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

Felt really off because the mayor himself led it and it was blatantly Christian, not even a remote possibility of some other higher power. He ended with, "In Jesus' Name". It was pretty in-your-face-Christian. As a former Christian, I was not impressed with it. Super unwelcoming to non-Christians in my opinion. 

But as the director said, "We're here to fight for funding. We can't fight God too."

If find that so profoundly offensive. I thought it was offensive when I was a Protestant Christian, and it is doubly offensive now that I am not. And just because SCOTUS says something is legally okay, doesn't mean it is morally okay. SCOTUS is not infallible.

 

[heartlikealion]

I find it inappropriate when there are prayers said in non religious areas. But I might be more aware of this than others in the Bible Belt because growing up (when I was in CA) one of our family’s best friends were Jewish and I remember they were upset about a Christmas production at the public school. I am keenly aware of these things and always try to think of alternative ways to handle that stuff (they wanted it to be a winter program, not Christmas). 

[Pam in CT]

@historically accurate I'm really, really glad you spent the time and effort and gas to go to the meeting. It *was not wasted,* however mixed-message and confusing and hot mess it seems.  Also, that you're observing events as they unfold firsthand, and then (perhaps especially this) also observing how the events are being characterized by the insiders within the library, the folks howling to [ take down a handful of specific library displays / make librarians assume new responsibilities of monitoring and shooing middle-school aged kids / remove content from library shelves / burn books / create a chilling atmosphere where librarians conveniently self-censor out of funding fear... whatever it is that the howling folks really "want" to achieve].

And especially, that you're sharing here on the hot mess of that process.  Of serving as witness.

There are sooooooo many pressures on us, that invite us to glom on too fast to curated/ partial/ factually wrong/ reductive meme of complicated issues that pull in competing directions.  Often -- to my mind, usually -- "outrage" is the hook that pulls us in and gets weaponized to further widen the fissures already there.

Actually participating firsthand in civic forums. and witnessing like you are doing is the only way I can see of getting beyond the mess we're in.  So, thanks (even if it does seem baffling and Sisyphean).

 

   

[livetoread]

It is also true that once a gov't body decides to allow religious prayer, it can't pick and choose the type of religious volunteer. Hence the Satanic Temple has been busy providing prayers in many gov't meetings until the officials finally decide maybe it's better to just leave that part out!

[Pam in CT]

46 minutes ago, livetoread said:

It is also true that once a gov't body decides to allow religious prayer, it can't pick and choose the type of religious volunteer. Hence the Satanic Temple has been busy providing prayers in many gov't meetings until the officials finally decide maybe it's better to just leave that part out!

Well, that's true as a legal matter.

As a practical matter, if the mayor is the one routinely kicking off the meetings, in the name of Jesus, there is a pretty stark and pretty clearly intentional statement of Who's Us, Who's Them that comes across.

Which is the purpose.

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

If find that so profoundly offensive. I thought it was offensive when I was a Protestant Christian, and it is doubly offensive now that I am not. And just because SCOTUS says something is legally okay, doesn't mean it is morally okay. SCOTUS is not infallible.

That's for damn sure. 🙂 

Just pointing out that currently it is legal to open government meetings in prayer. The mayor absolutely should not have led it.

[MercyA]

10 hours ago, Stacia said:

Please feel free to report my post. 

No need, I said my piece.

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

That's for damn sure. 🙂 

Just pointing out that currently it is legal to open government meetings in prayer. The mayor absolutely should not have led it.

Agreed! He should NOT have done that. One that page with you!

[HS Mom in NC]

We have severe discipleship problems in much of the American Church.

Some Christians like me aren't fans of public prayer because Jesus wasn't.  See Matthew chapter 6, " ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Way too many Christians directly disobey His command on this. They lie to themselves that they're being a witness "planting seeds" with something like, "Sure, sure, God Incarnate explicitly told me not to, but I know better. See, the Supreme Court backs me up, so I feel validated." Christians, stop. You're not being a good witness by doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.

I'm not opposed to stories of magic as a Christian, I've read hundreds of them to my kids. I would only be opposed to my child checking out a book giving instruction in actual, real life, no kidding occultic practices. That's on me to police for my own minor aged children.

And as to a secular entity, in this case, public libraries, scripture is clear there too in 1 Corinthians 5: 9-12. The principle of not holding non-Christian people (and I think non-Christian entities fits too) to biblical Christian standards applies." ⁹ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— ¹⁰ not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ¹¹ But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister^[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.¹² What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

[Pam in CT]

possible -- OK probable -- tangent alert here

54 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

We have severe discipleship problems in much of the American Church.

Some Christians like me aren't fans of public prayer because Jesus wasn't.  See Matthew chapter 6, " ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Way too many Christians directly disobey His command on this. They lie to themselves that they're being a witness "planting seeds" with something like, "Sure, sure, God Incarnate explicitly told me not to, but I know better. See, the Supreme Court backs me up, so I feel validated." Christians, stop. You're not being a good witness by doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.

I'm not opposed to stories of magic as a Christian, I've read hundreds of them to my kids. I would only be opposed to my child checking out a book giving instruction in actual, real life, no kidding occultic practices. That's on me to police for my own minor aged children.

And as to a secular entity, in this case, public libraries, scripture is clear there too in 1 Corinthians 5: 9-12. The principle of not holding non-Christian people (and I think non-Christian entities fits too) to biblical Christian standards applies." ⁹ I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— ¹⁰ not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. ¹¹ But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister^[a] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.¹² What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

Not Christian, and mostly-agree with the principal points here, and coming from a minority faith perspective 100%-appreciate the principal points here.

I have a question about *language* (and I don't mean to put you on the spot, so just don't answer if for any reason you're uneasy with/ troubled by the question).

Does the word "moral" to you refer mostly or entirely to sexual conduct?

 

(Like, the passage you cited includes swindling and gambling and idolatry.  Would you count short-changing a subcontractor or cheating on taxes, or a weekend in Vegas, or extreme worship of a sports/ entertainment/ political figure as "immoral"?  

Or, not in your specific examples above, but assuredly also in the texts, would you characterize acts of omission like failure to feed-the-poor, aid-the-sick, welcome-the-stranger etc as "immoral"?

Truly not trying to put you on the spot, so feel free to not-reply. Just curious, as I often am, about possibly different use of language, and how such differences can obscure other issues.)

[HS Mom in NC]

48 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

possible -- OK probable -- tangent alert here

Not Christian, and mostly-agree with the principal points here, and coming from a minority faith perspective 100%-appreciate the principal points here.

I have a question about *language* (and I don't mean to put you on the spot, so just don't answer if for any reason you're uneasy with/ troubled by the question).

Does the word "moral" to you refer mostly or entirely to sexual conduct?

 

(Like, the passage you cited includes swindling and gambling and idolatry.  Would you count short-changing a subcontractor or cheating on taxes, or a weekend in Vegas, or extreme worship of a sports/ entertainment/ political figure as "immoral"?  

Or, not in your specific examples above, but assuredly also in the texts, would you characterize acts of omission like failure to feed-the-poor, aid-the-sick, welcome-the-stranger etc as "immoral"?

Truly not trying to put you on the spot, so feel free to not-reply. Just curious, as I often am, about possibly different use of language, and how such differences can obscure other issues.)

Those are valid questions.  I'm glad you asked them. I don't feel put on the spot at all.

No, I don't only apply the word moral to sexual issues.  Immoral means disobeying God on any matter in thought, action, or deed, so yes, obeying the teachings of Jesus about loving your neighbor is moral and disobeying them is immoral, both in omission and comission. The Christian definition of idolatry is anything you do/think/love and defer to more than God.  Absolutely anything, including good things, can be idols if they're given status in your life that's higher than your love and devotion to God, so the examples you give generally are.  Jesus specifically told us to pay our taxes in full because our taxes belong to the government, the workman is worthy of his wages, pay who you hired what was agreed on up front, give to the poor, help the sick, etc.  Yes, welcoming the stranger and loving enemies is Christian teaching; again, disobedience to Jesus' teachings is immorality/sin that requires confession and repentance which is turning away from going in the wrong direction to going the opposite way that's the right direction.

Specific relevant points on those examples:

1. Weekend in Vegas.  BTDT several years with teen daughter for her The Vegas Shoot, an international archery competition. It was OK for us to be there because there's nothing wrong with archery competitions and eating in the restaurants and seeing the shows that didn't involve sexual content, exploitation, etc. When the coach and other moms invited all the moms to go see strippers one night, I politely declined with, "No, thank you." and offered to allow anyone else who wanted to to join me with my alternative, "I'm going to see (insert name of movie here) if anyone wants to join me."  No lecture or judgement directed at them because none of them had ever indicated to me that they're Christians. If had known one of them to be a Christian I would've taken them aside privately and matter of factly asked them why they thought it was OK to go when Jesus taught us to not look on anyone with lust. Stripping is only about looking on people with lust.

2. Gambling.  I don't gamble other than retirement funds in the The Stock Market, but I take no moral issue with Christians gambling as long as all the following criteria is strictly adhered to:
a. the gambling is legal
b. the person gambling has a responsible God honoring budget, is financially stable, doesn't owe anyone any money, and is only using the entertainment part of their budget and any winnings from the entertainment budget for gambling
c. the person gambling has never had any sign at all of a gambling addiction
d. the gambling doesn't involve harming animals (If human boxers want to volunteer to fight each other, that's their business, dumb, but voluntary. Animals can't volunteer.)

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Some Christians like me aren't fans of public prayer because Jesus wasn't.  See Matthew chapter 6, " ⁶ But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Way too many Christians directly disobey His command on this. They lie to themselves that they're being a witness "planting seeds" with something like, "Sure, sure, God Incarnate explicitly told me not to, but I know better. See, the Supreme Court backs me up, so I feel validated." Christians, stop. You're not being a good witness by doing exactly what Jesus told you not to do.

As I do most of the time, I agree with your Scriptural analysis. Just because we *can* do something doesn't mean we should.

However, do you think there is any time and place for *corporate* public prayer, outside of the church? Jesus prayed in public often, when in groups, although when He prayed privately He is recorded as going into the hills or other private spaces to do so. I'm thinking of Christian groups that pray in public before an important project, families who pray in restaurants, etc. 

I agree that the motivation shouldn't be attempted "seed planting" and most definitely not self-righteousness, but rather genuine communication with the Father. 

[HS Mom in NC]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

As I do most of the time, I agree with your Scriptural analysis. Just because we *can* do something doesn't mean we should.

However, do you think there is any time and place for *corporate* public prayer, outside of the church? Jesus prayed in public often, when in groups, although when He prayed privately He is recorded as going into the hills or other private spaces to do so. I'm thinking of Christian groups that pray in public before an important project, families who pray in restaurants, etc. 

I agree that the motivation shouldn't be attempted "seed planting" and most definitely not self-righteousness, but rather genuine communication with the Father. 

Yes, I think it can be acceptable, but it's in dangerous territory and should be thought about as such.  I'm very hesitant to dismiss explicit teachings and I think most of the time groups and families in these examples you give don't give it enough conscious thought to avoid the specific problems Jesus was warning against.  I get praying for guidance when you're meeting someone to address something of a spiritual nature at a coffee shop, or out of a conviction of giving thanks for God's provision at all meals regardless of location, but IME, it's a very rare American Christian who truly thinks it through when they make exceptions for public prayer. It's usually habit, mild virtue signaling,  or a mild form of demonstrating us vs. them practices.

[Farrar]

15 hours ago, MercyA said:

I understand (and sometimes may share in) an eyeroll at what some Christians are doing. I don't think an eyeroll emoji applied to our religious beliefs is in keeping with the spirit or rules of this board. 

But, you know, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I get the frustration. 

To me, that's about the double standard that in a public government context like a library, that Christians get to say which acts of impossibility are miracles and which ones are evil magic. I absolutely give that a giant eyeroll because it's completely illogical. It's not an eyeroll to someone's beliefs. It's to the idea that anyone can decide for everyone else which stories are which. That's what's disrespectful and honestly absurd, not the criticizing of it.

[MercyA]

That's not what I took away from the previous post, @Farrar, but perhaps I misread Stacia. I get what you're saying and agree with you about double standards in the context of a public library. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MercyA

[TABmom]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

possible -- OK probable -- tangent alert here

Not Christian, and mostly-agree with the principal points here, and coming from a minority faith perspective 100%-appreciate the principal points here.

I have a question about *language* (and I don't mean to put you on the spot, so just don't answer if for any reason you're uneasy with/ troubled by the question).

Does the word "moral" to you refer mostly or entirely to sexual conduct?

 

(Like, the passage you cited includes swindling and gambling and idolatry.  Would you count short-changing a subcontractor or cheating on taxes, or a weekend in Vegas, or extreme worship of a sports/ entertainment/ political figure as "immoral"?  

Or, not in your specific examples above, but assuredly also in the texts, would you characterize acts of omission like failure to feed-the-poor, aid-the-sick, welcome-the-stranger etc as "immoral"?

Truly not trying to put you on the spot, so feel free to not-reply. Just curious, as I often am, about possibly different use of language, and how such differences can obscure other issues.)

Not the person that this was addressed to, but I wanted to throw my two cents in anyway! I am a Christian, though not conservative. I do not primarily think of "moral" relating to sexual conduct. In fact, if someone was described to me as being immoral, I would think first that they were a liar/cheat. Misrepresenting something or taking advantage of someone. I guess I think or moral as being very close to the word ethical. 

I also so think your acts of omission ARE immoral, but it is also a sticky situation. If I donate to one food bank, but not another, could I afford to donate more money if I bought a cheaper car/didn't vacation, I do NOT think that is immoral. But if God put someone/some situation in front of me and I did not respond/help as I could, I do believe that would be immoral.