Omicron anecdata?

[Martha in GA]

3 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

What is the shortest time for having a repeat case of COVID that anyone is aware of?  I have a friend who is about 80 years old in NYC who had carefully avoided COVID for over two years.  His wife got COVID but he did not--until two weeks after she was testing negative.  He then got COVID, feeling very sick for a couple of days, was treated with anit-viral and fully recovered.  I spoke with him a couple of days ago and he said he was feeling fine.  Now, two weeks later, he feels worse than he did before and has again tested positive for COVID.  Is this really a second case of COVID?  Or is it some type of relapse from the previous case?

Did he get Paxlovid? They are saying there are a lot of rebound cases with that...

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Martha in GA said:

Did he get Paxlovid? They are saying there are a lot of rebound cases with that...

I don't know what he got; he simply said "a five-day course of anti-viral medication"..  

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I don't know what he got; he simply said "a five-day course of anti-viral medication"..  

That sounds like Paxlovid. That's longer than usual for relapse though. It seems like usually it happens within a few days of finishing the course. Still seems more likely than catching it again so quickly, but with all the new BA variants, each of which seems to confer little protection from the next, it might be possible. Especially in someone that age.

Also, paxlovid rebound is usually described as milder symptoms than the original infection, so that would make me wonder as well. Is he quite sick?

Edited June 3, 2022 by KSera

[Spryte]

My first thought was Paxlovid rebound as well, but I have heard of re-infection as soon as three weeks. That was in an article posted here recently.

I hope he feels better soon.

[Arcadia]

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/novavaxs-stock-slides-23-after-fda-details-myocarditis-cases-for-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-2022-06-03 
(The FDA report is 80 pages)
“Shares of Novavax Inc. NVAX tumbled 22.9% in trading on Friday after the Food and Drug Administration published a report that detailed the agency's assessment of the clinical data for the company's COVID-19 vaccine candidate. There were at least four instances of myocarditis, a type of heart inflammation, in the clinical-trial participants. "If causally associated, the risk of myocarditis following NVX-CoV2373 could be higher than reported during post-authorization use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines," the FDA said. No cases of myocarditis were reported in clinical trials for either of the approved mRNA vaccines, which were developed by Moderna Inc.MRNA and BioNTech SE [sbntx] and Pfizer Inc. PFE . The first reports about myocarditis came after the mRNA vaccines had already been authorized. The FDA report was released in advance of next Tuesday's meeting of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee. The two-shot vaccine has a 90% efficacy rate against mild to severe symptomatic COVID-19“

ETA: @Ting Tang I remembered you were interested in Novavax.

ETA: from FDA report 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Arcadia

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/novavaxs-stock-slides-23-after-fda-details-myocarditis-cases-for-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-2022-06-03 
(The FDA report is 80 pages)
“Shares of Novavax Inc. NVAX tumbled 22.9% in trading on Friday after the Food and Drug Administration published a report that detailed the agency's assessment of the clinical data for the company's COVID-19 vaccine candidate. There were at least four instances of myocarditis, a type of heart inflammation, in the clinical-trial participants. "If causally associated, the risk of myocarditis following NVX-CoV2373 could be higher than reported during post-authorization use of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines," the FDA said. No cases of myocarditis were reported in clinical trials for either of the approved mRNA vaccines, which were developed by Moderna Inc.MRNA and BioNTech SE [sbntx] and Pfizer Inc. PFE . The first reports about myocarditis came after the mRNA vaccines had already been authorized. The FDA report was released in advance of next Tuesday's meeting of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee. The two-shot vaccine has a 90% efficacy rate against mild to severe symptomatic COVID-19“

ETA: @Ting Tang I remembered you were interested in Novavax.

ETA: from FDA report 

Thank you so much for sharing.  This is not news I was hoping to read about it.  😞

[TravelingChris]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:25 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Yikes. I would look for a new doctor stat. Even if the virus was man made, his statement makes no sense. You can eradicate even man made viruses by not providing a host etc.  

Well since we have only been able to eradicate one virus (smallpox) and apparently, maybe causing another virus (monkeypox) to beomce more prevalent because of that eradication, I can surmise it is here to stay.  I do agree with you that it is stupid to say because it is man-made it will stay.  And I do believe it was manipulated in the Wuhan lab.

[TravelingChris]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:55 AM, Jean in Newcastle said:

Someone from the CDC called me yesterday (connected to V-safe) and asked if me I had to go to the hospital after my second vaccination. 

They called me at one point too last year.

[TravelingChris]

5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

What is the shortest time for having a repeat case of COVID that anyone is aware of?  I have a friend who is about 80 years old in NYC who had carefully avoided COVID for over two years.  His wife got COVID but he did not--until two weeks after she was testing negative.  He then got COVID, feeling very sick for a couple of days, was treated with anit-viral and fully recovered.  I spoke with him a couple of days ago and he said he was feeling fine.  Now, two weeks later, he feels worse than he did before and has again tested positive for COVID.  Is this really a second case of COVID?  Or is it some type of relapse from the previous case?

VP Harris got it about 6 weeks later

[TravelingChris]

Dh and I were talking yesterday because we are always getting automated phone calls that someone in his gigantic high rise building clusters got COVID--now mind you- if someone in his immediate area got COVID, he wouldn't get an automated call.  He would be called personally.  Nit as pf now he gets 2 calls- cell and home, plus email too.  Anyway, there really is no way for us to know if we have ever had COVID, right?  I still haven't gotten a single infection since Feb 2020.  Dh got what seemed to be RSV (wasn't COVID) along with dd1, dsil1, and ds too back in Sept 21.  Otherwise he hasn't been sick .  But if you had asymptomatic COVID- you would never know, right?

Our local news had a story about how so many people, especially kids,  are now getting sick with colds, etc

[catz]

6 hours ago, Bootsie said:

What is the shortest time for having a repeat case of COVID that anyone is aware of? 

Like I think this is hard to say.  A while back, prior to Omicron for sure there was somewhere in Europe that had done a small study found clear cases of relapse.  They knew this because they were testing and sequencing at least some individuals enough to identify those cases.  The relapse cases showed the exact same strain persisting and ramping up symptoms again up to 6-8 weeks later and not necessarily in immuno compromised (though I think timing wise this was prior to boosters being common). So there are cases of known relapse.

The other thing with the anti-viral is there were the similar percentage of relapse cases in the control group to the med group.  I think relapse isn't unheard of, and some may just identify it as taking a long time to recover and a lot of people report feeling up and down.  It may not be Paxloid dependant at all.

I would suspect something within about 6-8 weeks especially in areas of a single dominant strain are most likely a relapse.  

We are not sequencing nearly enough in the US to be able to ID relapses vs. new infections.  We also have done enough studies watching symptoms through recovery through possible long covid to know patterns of possible relapse.  So I think there is a lot of shooting in the dark on this.  Early in covid in there were reports of testing negative and then positive again later when we had a single stable strain circulating.    

[Ausmumof3]

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

What is the shortest time for having a repeat case of COVID that anyone is aware of?  I have a friend who is about 80 years old in NYC who had carefully avoided COVID for over two years.  His wife got COVID but he did not--until two weeks after she was testing negative.  He then got COVID, feeling very sick for a couple of days, was treated with anit-viral and fully recovered.  I spoke with him a couple of days ago and he said he was feeling fine.  Now, two weeks later, he feels worse than he did before and has again tested positive for COVID.  Is this really a second case of COVID?  Or is it some type of relapse from the previous case?

Do you mean anecdotally or officially? There was one at 19 days that hit the news recently.

The time period seems too long but if he had pavloxid it could be the rebound thing.

The other possibility is that Covid has weakened the immune system a bit and made them more susceptible to something else

Edited June 3, 2022 by Ausmumof3

[sassenach]

Tales from my job in public health: Flu went through one facility, hospitalized 5 and killed 2. All of our other facilities combined have had 2 deaths in this surge from Covid, though I'm not sure about total hospitalizations (I'm fairly sure it's more than 5). The lesson? Paxlovid is great, influenza sucks.

 

 

[sassenach]

11 hours ago, Bootsie said:

What is the shortest time for having a repeat case of COVID that anyone is aware of?  I have a friend who is about 80 years old in NYC who had carefully avoided COVID for over two years.  His wife got COVID but he did not--until two weeks after she was testing negative.  He then got COVID, feeling very sick for a couple of days, was treated with anit-viral and fully recovered.  I spoke with him a couple of days ago and he said he was feeling fine.  Now, two weeks later, he feels worse than he did before and has again tested positive for COVID.  Is this really a second case of COVID?  Or is it some type of relapse from the previous case?

Rebound from Paxlovid is much more prevalent than originally thought. I think the studies said 2-3% but we're seeing about 20%. Unfortunately, it has to be treated like a true infection. Paxlovid is amazing but the down side is if you get rebound, your time infected and in isolation is very much extended. It's an unfortunate reality of the real world use.

 

[TravelingChris]

I still hope they have the other medication around.  I can't take Paxlovid because it causes blood clots.

[wathe]

40 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I still hope they have the other medication around.  I can't take Paxlovid because it causes blood clots.

This is news to me - I've reviewed the paxlovid literature and I haven't seen this anywhere.  Can you point me to your source for this?

It does interfere with certain anticoagulants,  but mostly to increase anticoagulant levels and therefore increase bleeding risk.  Not clots, as far as I know.

[Mom_to3]

49 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I still hope they have the other medication around.  I can't take Paxlovid because it causes blood clots.

I haven't heard this either. Seems like a serious issue if true, especially since covid itself causes clotting issues. Would you have a reference?

[wathe]

While on the topic of paxlovid, a new study out of Isreal just published.

Real world data, during Omicron, included vaccinated patients.

Paxlovid 46%*** RRR in patients with at least one risk factor;  composite primary outcome of severe covid and covid-specific mortality (compare to 89% RRR in Pfizer's EPIC-HR for similar primary endpoint.  Real world data is pretty much never as good as clinical trials, and IME, Pfizer tweaked their study to optimize RRR numbers ).  

Paxlovid associated RR was independent of vaccinations status  - that's big, and surprised me.

Immunecompromised and older subgroups had more benefit (greater RRR) - not surprising.

Lots of limitations (as there always are with real-world data).  But better than what we had before for evidence on vaccinated patients (which was a Pharma press release EPIC-SR)

***Edit:  RRR 46% (not 43%)

**ETA, in the same study, vaccination associated with an 80% RRR for the same composite primary endpoint, independent of Paxlovid.

Vaccination remains the most effective therapeutic choice to reduce covid morbidity and mortality.   Superior to Paxlovid, by far. (aside from the obvious that it's better to never be exposed to covid in the first place, but that's not possible for most people)

Edited June 4, 2022 by wathe

[wathe]

55 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I still hope they have the other medication around.  I can't take Paxlovid because it causes blood clots.

I should add that we are still using remdesivir for high-risk patients who can't take Paxlovid.  Might be different in the US?

[mlktwins]

Please remind me again when I should get a PCR?  I’ve felt a little run down for days and had my 2nd booster a week ago today.  Yesterday afternoon my throat was a little sore, as opposed to a little tickely the other days, and I was achey (happy bday to me 🎉🎉🎉).  No fever.  Today I feel worse.  Sore throat is a little worse, still achey, no fever, and very minor congestion.  Home test this morning was negative.  What should I test for and when?  I am supposed to have cataract surgery a week from Wednesday 😢.  If I don’t have that surgery, my 2nd eye surgery will be postponed.  I am the only one sick in my house.  I am staying away from my family.  

[Kanin]

5 hours ago, mlktwins said:

Please remind me again when I should get a PCR?  I’ve felt a little run down for days and had my 2nd booster a week ago today.  Yesterday afternoon my throat was a little sore, as opposed to a little tickely the other days, and I was achey (happy bday to me 🎉🎉🎉).  No fever.  Today I feel worse.  Sore throat is a little worse, still achey, no fever, and very minor congestion.  Home test this morning was negative.  What should I test for and when?  I am supposed to have cataract surgery a week from Wednesday 😢.  If I don’t have that surgery, my 2nd eye surgery will be postponed.  I am the only one sick in my house.  I am staying away from my family.  

I'm sorry you're feeling crummy. A neighbor of mine told me that she didn't test positive until day 3 or 4 of feeling slightly ill. 

[Elona]

@watheI feel a little silly asking, but what does RRR stand for in the study above? I thought maybe relapse rate, but then it could be recovery rate . . . And still I can't figure out the third R. 🙂

[Tenaj]

My 28yodd tested positive yesterday.  She was at our house on Monday for a family gathering, got the body aches on Thursday and now she's worried about her grandparents and elderly aunt who were here also on Monday. 

Her 2yods was sick last week and she tested him but it was negative so she didn't think any more about it even though there had been two cases in his daycare.  Then she found out that a coworker who was out sick at the end of last week had Covid.  She was covering for him in his absence and physically worked in his office the whole day Friday and had to deal with nasty trash (takeout food containers) that he had left.  No one told her he had Covid.  Then on Tuesday she went to cover for him again but he was back.  They were in the same room for five minutes. That's when she found out he had had Covid.

 So she was either exposed last week or early this week and either we were all exposed or not.

She was feeling a bit better yesterday but her lower eye lids were swollen.  I think I've heard of eye involvement for some people?  

Edited June 5, 2022 by Tenaj
Clarity

[mlktwins]

10 hours ago, Kanin said:

I'm sorry you're feeling crummy. A neighbor of mine told me that she didn't test positive until day 3 or 4 of feeling slightly ill. 

Thank you.  Do you know if the result came from a home test or PCR?

[mlktwins]

Little update 😊.  I am feeling much better today. Sore throat and achey feeing is gone.  Still no fever.  Very minor congestion.  More like a little cold where you get the sore/scratchy throat at the beginning.  I will home test each day and then get a PCR to hopefully make sure it isn’t Covid.  I had DH put the air mattress in my office on the 3rd floor so will continue to be careful around my family.  We have been super careful with Covid -still.  I still mask indoors, etc.  Not sure where I got whatever I have given that.  
 

I am praying I can have my eye surgery next week and that the 2nd surgery isn’t delayed. The longer that is postponed, the less vision I will have restored in that eye 😩.

[TateyBonetto]

1 hour ago, Tenaj said:

She was feeling a bit better yesterday but her lower eye lids were swollen.  I think I've heard of eye involvement for some people?  

When I had Covid, I had a lot of sinus pressure and my eyelids were super swollen. I don't think it's uncommon. I heard of other people with swollen eyelids as well. It took a couple of days to go away.

[Idalou]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:33 PM, TravelingChris said:

VP Harris got it about 6 weeks later

Can you link that? I have heard nothing about her getting it twice, just once in late April

[Kanin]

59 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

Thank you.  Do you know if the result came from a home test or PCR?

No, I don't, sorry! For some reason I assumed home test, because she tested negative on both of the two days prior. 

[wathe]

11 hours ago, Elona said:

@watheI feel a little silly asking, but what does RRR stand for in the study above? I thought maybe relapse rate, but then it could be recovery rate . . . And still I can't figure out the third R. 🙂

Relative risk reduction.  Though technically in this study they calculated  hazard ratios,  and used that to estimate RRR (RRR = 1-HR)

[mommyoffive]

[Kassia]

42 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Do you know of another source to get information about local cases/hospitalizations?  

[TravelingChris]

On 6/3/2022 at 11:38 PM, wathe said:

This is news to me - I've reviewed the paxlovid literature and I haven't seen this anywhere.  Can you point me to your source for this?

It does interfere with certain anticoagulants,  but mostly to increase anticoagulant levels and therefore increase bleeding risk.  Not clots, as far as I know.

That is it.  I forgot which way it went. 

[TravelingChris]

On 6/5/2022 at 8:23 AM, Idalou said:

Can you link that? I have heard nothing about her getting it twice, just once in late April

She got it after the White House reporter\s funny thing they do--- can't remember the name. They were reporting that she was taking meds, etc.

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

She got it after the White House reporter\s funny thing they do--- can't remember the name. They were reporting that she was taking meds, etc.

Harris tested positive (for the first time according to reports) on April 26 and then the corespondent's dinner was on April 30. Her husband had it in March, so maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Edited June 6, 2022 by KSera

[TravelingChris]

56 minutes ago, KSera said:

Harris tested positive (for the first time according to reports) on April 26 and then the corespondent's dinner was on April 30. Her husband had it in March, so maybe that's what you're thinking of.

And she was probably quarantining for that

[Ausmumof3]

 

[mommyoffive]

[mommyoffive]

[mommyoffive]

18 hours ago, Kassia said:

Do you know of another source to get information about local cases/hospitalizations?  

I think the states use their own info?   I am pretty sure here in WI they get their info about state cases from the Department of Health in our state.

[YaelAldrich]

The three people in my family who got Covid are now negative. No lasting side effects so far other than peeling fingertips and toes on me and my DD. The two kids in my house who were negative stayed negative.

My menstrual staining continued throughout. I am supposed to my period today and I think that's happening. Called my gynaecologist for suggestions. 

[mommyoffive]

Moderna Announces Omicron-Containing Bivalent Booster Candidate mRNA-1273.214 Demonstrates Superior Antibody Response Against Omicron (modernatx.com)

[YaelAldrich]

DH who had Paxlovid and a negative test has been coughing the last couple of days.  We tested for larks.  POSITIVE.  He is stunned and ANGRY.  My kid who is COVID free has been testing every day and we're supposed to go to my parents Sunday.  Argh.

[YaelAldrich]

Do we have to worry about those of us who just finished with covid at the same time (who didn't take Paxlovid).

[mommyoffive]

22 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

DH who had Paxlovid and a negative test has been coughing the last couple of days.  We tested for larks.  POSITIVE.  He is stunned and ANGRY.  My kid who is COVID free has been testing every day and we're supposed to go to my parents Sunday.  Argh.

Oh no, I am sorry.  Is he in Japan?

[YaelAldrich]

7 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Oh no, I am sorry.  Is he in Japan?

Not yet.  Tickets were bought though.

[mommyoffive]

16 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Not yet.  Tickets were bought though.

OH man.  I hope he is still able to go.  I am sorry.  How is he feeling?  Fingers crossed he doesn't get very sick.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

Do we have to worry about those of us who just finished with covid at the same time (who didn't take Paxlovid).

Rebounding seems to happen to around 2% anyway, and there’s significant evidence that people who rebound are fairly contagious and should isolate, so I’d continue to test and isolate if possible.  
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2022/05/25/rebound-covid-after-paxlovid-calls-5-days-isolation-cdc-says/9909593002/

This article says anecdotally the percentage of people who rebound after Paxlovid is pretty high though I think the jury’s still out on that one. It would not surprise me though based on what I’m personally seeing.

 

[Mom_to3]

A couple of questions about vaccines and kids:

Will the Modernal EUA for kids next week allow for Moderna boosters, or only first vaccinations? We've been very eager for Moderna boosters, especially for the kids in the 6-11 year age group...

Assuming that we get funding for updated boosters this fall - does anybody know if kids will also get updated vaccinations?

 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Mom_to3 said:

A couple of questions about vaccines and kids:

Will the Modernal EUA for kids next week allow for Moderna boosters, or only first vaccinations? We've been very eager for Moderna boosters, especially for the kids in the 6-11 year age group...

Assuming that we get funding for updated boosters this fall - does anybody know if kids will also get updated vaccinations?

 

These are good questions. Your second one is one I’ve been wondering as well, particularly with Moderna’s announcement about their bivalent vaccine candidate for fall. I would really like my kids to be able to get that one and it would be worth it to me to have my kid who is newly eligible for a booster to wait until fall if that would be available to her. 
 

For the second, won’t it only be Moderna’s vaccine for under six year olds that will be reviewed next week (and Pfizer’s) or did I miss that they were going to look at their other pediatric vaccines as well? It’s the one for the youngest kids that I’m waiting for so I’ve stopped being as aware of what’s going on for the over fives. 

[YaelAldrich]

10 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

OH man.  I hope he is still able to go.  I am sorry.  How is he feeling?  Fingers crossed he doesn't get very sick.

Same as before. Stuffy head, sneezing, coughing, tired, a little feverish.