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3 minutes ago, saraha said:

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding. Are you going to let this come between us? You can’t believe everything you hear. Long pause, big sigh, well, you are a grown person, I guess you are going to do what you are going do.

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right? And is she now saying my sister lied by saying I can’t believe everything I hear? She’s the one who canceled thanksgiving. Ugh. I’m sorry to be working this out in real time with all of you but dh won’t be home til late and now the dread and second guessing and just wanting to smooth it over is here

So sorry dear.  Post away.  And hit the pause button.  You need some space. Certainly until after this holiday weekend.  I am sure she is doing a mad scramble realizing she will have to explain why her kids did not come for TG per usual. But remember SHE cancelled and it is not unreasonable of you to not be jerked around like this.   

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Dread and second guessing and wanting to smooth things over are natural reactions to uncomfortable situations. But go back and reread the post where you detailed her antics- that should encourage you that staying the course is the right thing. Hang in there… we’re here for you!

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it's a classic move, the tearful non apology. Designed to ramp up the guilt and gaslight you into thinking that you were/are the unreasonable one. 

Do you really, honestly think that she understands why you are upset and is sorry about it?

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16 minutes ago, saraha said:

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding. Are you going to let this come between us? You can’t believe everything you hear. Long pause, big sigh, well, you are a grown person, I guess you are going to do what you are going do.

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right? And is she now saying my sister lied by saying I can’t believe everything I hear? She’s the one who canceled thanksgiving. Ugh. I’m sorry to be working this out in real time with all of you but dh won’t be home til late and now the dread and second guessing and just wanting to smooth it over is here

It means she's trying on the very reasonable person + martyr thing as plan B.
It's not an apology. Even if she apologised, it wouldn't be sincere. It'd be manipulation.


Smoothing it over means you need to forget everything in this thread and go back to sweeping everything under the carpet, after making some seriously grovelling apologies. 
Even if you can do that, it won't be worth it. Chasing mean people never is. There is absolutely nothing you can do to make a healthy relationship with your mother because she doesn't want one. She couldn't dare.

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6 minutes ago, Annie G said:

Dread and second guessing and wanting to smooth things over are natural reactions to uncomfortable situations. But go back and reread the post where you detailed her antics- that should encourage you that staying the course is the right thing. Hang in there… we’re here for you!

Yes! She's not apologizing! She's still trying to make it your fault. Please don't even think about trying to smooth this over with her -- stand firm! We're here for you, and I know your dh is in your corner, which is the most important thing!

Also, ask yourself this -- why would you want to smooth things over? What benefit is there to doing that? Won't it just prolong the nightmare and push it down the line until the next time you have to see her, when it will start all over again?

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3 minutes ago, LMD said:

Do you really, honestly think that she understands why you are upset and is sorry about it?

I have no idea? Her messages sound like they are addressing a different issue maybe? She said this is a misunderstanding, a mistake. But she didn’t say so how can we fix it, or where can we go from here. She said are you going to let this come between us? And sounded annoyed

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Saraha, you did something brave, and now you need to do something difficult.

You need to block your mother on your phone. (You may also need to block your sister and other relatives, but right now, it looks like it's just your mother.) Do not unblock her until you've had a few sessions with a licensed therapist and have a plan for dealing with her.

Nobody wants to do this. I wouldn't even suggest going no contact as a FIRST step except that she's clearly got her claws in your head still.

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Just now, saraha said:

I have no idea? Her messages sound like they are addressing a different issue maybe? She said this is a misunderstanding, a mistake. But she didn’t say so how can we fix it, or where can we go from here. She said are you going to let this come between us? And sounded annoyed

She is saying whatever she usually says that she knows will get you to second guess yourself.

She isn't addressing a different issue; she's trying to muddy the waters so she can come across as the injured party and so you are the one who is wrong and who needs to come groveling back to her.

She is messing with your head.

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No need to apologize, this is a support board after all.  We fully support you and are happy to be of assistance.

There was no misunderstanding.  You understand very clearly what happened.  You called Mommy Dearest on her BS, you set a reasonable boundary, she threw a fit and cancelled, and now she's rewriting history and trying to suck you back in.

Anyone want in a narc pool?  

I'm guessing Mommy Dearest will have a sudden medical (either physical or mental) crisis that she'll call Sis about so Sis can call saraha about to guilt her back into contact.  Of course in that situation saraha should reply, "Call 911." 

Or will it be a threat to write saraha and/or saraha's kids out of Mommy Deaerest's will. To which saraha should reply, "That's fine with me, it's her money, she can do whatever she wants with it."

Anyone else have a guess as to the next step from Mommy Dearest and/or Sis?

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Just now, saraha said:

I have no idea? Her messages sound like they are addressing a different issue maybe? She said this is a misunderstanding, a mistake. But she didn’t say so how can we fix it, or where can we go from here. She said are you going to let this come between us? And sounded annoyed

She tried to use your child as a pawn in her hurtful, manipulative game.

She lied about your children to their aunt.

SHE did these things. Your response is not about letting some "thing" come between you and your mother, it is about you establishing healthy boundaries for your family.

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You and your sister were clear with her. Any misunderstanding is a deliberate misunderstanding. She knows, she just doesn't like it.

The mistake is that she feels she needs another chance to get the manipulation right this time.

This is truly textbook behaviour, because a narc's worldview is seen through the lens of their own strongest emotion. It's true because she feels it/wants it to be, and no, no one else's feelings are part of the equation.

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7 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

No need to apologize, this is a support board after all.  We fully support you and are happy to be of assistance.

There was no misunderstanding.  You understand very clearly what happened.  You called Mommy Dearest on her BS, you set a reasonable boundary, she threw a fit and cancelled, and now she's rewriting history and trying to suck you back in.

Anyone want in a narc pool?  

I'm guessing Mommy Dearest will have a sudden medical (either physical or mental) crisis that she'll call Sis about so Sis can call saraha about to guilt her back into contact.  Of course in that situation saraha should reply, "Call 911." 

Or will it be a threat to write saraha and/or saraha's kids out of Mommy Deaerest's will. To which saraha should reply, "That's fine with me, it's her money, she can do whatever she wants with it."

Anyone else have a guess as to the next step from Mommy Dearest and/or Sis?

ha!

maybe a fit about alienating her grandchildren from her, with a legal threat about grandparents rights?

or, she'll just rock up at your doorstep.

btdt 

Edited by LMD
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At what point do I talk to her? I don’t want to go no contact forever, I just need to cool down. But I also need her to not lie about my kids. Not put the blame on me. But really I don’t know how it could come up again? 
ugh, I sound like that wife that doesn’t want to leave her abusive husband. Up until yesterday she has never mistreated the kids. And she didnt actually mistreat them, they know nothing about it.

I want to talk to her about it, I just don’t know when

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6 minutes ago, saraha said:

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding. Are you going to let this come between us? You can’t believe everything you hear. Long pause, big sigh, well, you are a grown person, I guess you are going to do what you are going do.

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right? And is she now saying my sister lied by saying I can’t believe everything I hear? She’s the one who canceled thanksgiving. Ugh. I’m sorry to be working this out in real time with all of you but dh won’t be home til late and now the dread and second guessing and just wanting to smooth it over is here

That is pretty textbook personality disorder. DH's relatives try this all the time. The narrative will quickly change to this being all your "fault" and how you are trying to ruin everyone's holiday. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this @saraha! It's really terrible no matter how used to it you get. 😢

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If you feel badly leaving them hanging, you could simply say, "I'm going to be unavailable for a few days. We can talk after the holidays". Or "after Thanksgiving" if the holidays boundary feels like too much right now. Everyone needs to be blocked for a few days while you process.

Narcs typically get frantic when they realize there is a boundary set. You need to prepare yourself mentally for some wild behavior.

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9 minutes ago, LMD said:

ha!

maybe a fit about alienating her grandchildren from her, with a legal threat about grandparents rights?

or, she'll just rock up at your doorstep.

btdt 

Luckily she hasn’t bothered to come to my house in 10 years. She probably couldn’t find it if she wanted to. She doesn’t have internet or a cell phone 

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40 minutes ago, saraha said:

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding.  

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right?  

She realized she went too far and she's losing her supply.   She's gaslighting you ("it's just a misunderstanding" - no, it isn't.)  in an attempt to keep you in her power.  Narcs will also love bomb to keep their victims in their grasp.  Supply is everything.   There's a reason another name for them is emotional vampire.

 

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3 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

If you feel badly leaving them hanging, you could simply say, "I'm going to be unavailable for a few days. We can talk after the holidays". Or "after Thanksgiving" if the holidays boundary feels like too much right now. Everyone needs to be blocked for a few days while you process.

Narcs typically get frantic when they realize there is a boundary set. You need to prepare yourself mentally for some wild behavior.

This.  Also, delaying any reconciliation discussion until after Thanksgiving means she has to suffer the consequences of her actions, which is a very good thing. If you rush back to make things ‘normal’ again, there is no incentive for her to change her behavior. But missing the holidays with the grands will sting. 

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6 minutes ago, saraha said:

I can’t believe it 

 I can; it's a constructive coping mechanism. There are more to choose from, https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=narcissist+bingo+cardsso if people want to play individually they can pick their own cards or we can play as the WTM boardie team (Go, Mummified Chickens!) and quote and give letter and action references as you keep us up to date (if you choose.)

So... N gaslighting for "misunderstanding" voicemail.

Edited by HS Mom in NC
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9 minutes ago, saraha said:

At what point do I talk to her? I don’t want to go no contact forever, I just need to cool down. But I also need her to not lie about my kids. Not put the blame on me. But really I don’t know how it could come up again? 
ugh, I sound like that wife that doesn’t want to leave her abusive husband. Up until yesterday she has never mistreated the kids. And she didnt actually mistreat them, they know nothing about it.

I want to talk to her about it, I just don’t know when

You don't have to make that decision right now. I know she is making it seem urgent but you don't have to jump on her timetable.

Now you know that she will drag and blame your kids to get her way. That's good information to have, it will help you make clearer decisions.

Take time to cool down. Talk it over with your husband.

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31 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Anyone else have a guess as to the next step from Mommy Dearest and/or Sis?

I predict a "gift" will be dropped off at saraha's house. Either the taco shirt will be left on the doorstep or Christmas presents will be dropped off early. Either way, there will be tears and melodrama about how much she loves the kids and what a martyr she is for driving alllll the way to saraha's house, just so the kids could have a present from their grandma.

And maybe a lawn tantrum from grandma, too.

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31 minutes ago, saraha said:

I have no idea? Her messages sound like they are addressing a different issue maybe? She said this is a misunderstanding, a mistake. But she didn’t say so how can we fix it, or where can we go from here. She said are you going to let this come between us? And sounded annoyed

Classic gaslighting.

Narcs idea of "fix-it" = everything being swept under the rug and going back to the way they were last week.

she is annoyed (she realizes she made a mistake.  She'll never apologize.) - you're not behaving the way she trained you. She told you to jump, and you didn't ask how high.   Not only did you refuse to jump, you chewed her out for demanding you jump and making your children jump.   

Putting your children first - is healthy and correct.

31 minutes ago, LMD said:

of course, she's annoyed at your audacity in thinking you may set a boundary with her. It doesn't matter how reasonable a boundary "Don't lie about my kids!" is, props don't get to be directors. 

Oh, the humanity! . . . . swoon . . . where's my fainting emoji . . . .

10 minutes ago, saraha said:

At what point do I talk to her? I don’t want to go no contact forever, I just need to cool down. But I also need her to not lie about my kids. Not put the blame on me. But really I don’t know how it could come up again? 
ugh, I sound like that wife that doesn’t want to leave her abusive husband. Up until yesterday she has never mistreated the kids. And she didnt actually mistreat them, they know nothing about it.

I want to talk to her about it, I just don’t know when

When you are able to walk away from her melodrama WITHOUT struggling or feeling guilty.  Just ' ces't la vie.  You *have* to be able to walk away.  

my grandmother was close to 80 when I learned about boundaries.  She was still a nasty piece of work.  very subtle too.  I had one 15 minute phone call with her once a week AS LONG AS SHE WAS POLITE!  as soon as she said something inappropriate (didn't have to be ott, just inappropriate) - I said goodbye and hung up.  (btw: we were not allowed to ever hang up on her.)  I didn't argue with her, I just refused to listen.  Many phone calls were no more than five minutes.  One was three minutes.  I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number that made it to 15.  That was several years' worth of phone calls before her mental health went off a cliff.   

I was much stronger when it came to dealing with my brother.  He got one attempt at redirection and before I'd say goodbye and hang up.  I'm now pretty much done with him.

Do not underestimate the damage exposure to her melodrama is doing to your children. And it will get worse as they get older.

If you see her - Always, always, always, have a plan to walk out with no notice.  Just say "bye, gotta go."  NO EXCUSES.

17 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

I knew there had to a narc bingo card. 

Ok, WTM Boardies, it's on.
Narcissistic personality disorder Bingo Card

love it. . .

dh and his twisted military brat sense of humor . . . . 

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24 minutes ago, saraha said:

Luckily she hasn’t bothered to come to my house in 10 years. She probably couldn’t find it if she wanted to. She doesn’t have internet or a cell phone 

Don't bet the rent on that.  Narcs will escalate their behavior when they feel they are losing control.

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12 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I predict a "gift" will be dropped off at saraha's house. Either the taco shirt will be left on the doorstep or Christmas presents will be dropped off early. Either way, there will be tears and melodrama about how much she loves the kids and what a martyr she is for driving alllll the way to saraha's house, just so the kids could have a present from their grandma.

And maybe a lawn tantrum from grandma, too.

 Fiddle_Player_Smiley_Face.GIF (185×180) (patriotden.com)

Edited by gardenmom5
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13 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I predict a "gift" will be dropped off at saraha's house. Either the taco shirt will be left on the doorstep or Christmas presents will be dropped off early. Either way, there will be tears and melodrama about how much she loves the kids and what a martyr she is for driving alllll the way to saraha's house, just so the kids could have a present from their grandma.

And maybe a lawn tantrum from grandma, too.

I don’t think she could find out house but something showing up in the mail wouldn’t surprise me.

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48 minutes ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Anyone else have a guess as to the next step from Mommy Dearest and/or Sis?

Scapegoating of Saraha is coming up next ... Saraha is so mean, so unreasonable, so ungrateful to her poor martyr mom who only wanted to be with her family for TG and who couldn't bear to be away from grandkids and all she ever wanted to have was "some fun" and tacos and Saraha was so coldhearted and screwed both Mommy and Sis.

They first install the buttons in you to guilt you, obligate you, to want their approval and to feel sad about their smear campaign. Then, they will keep pressing those buttons to make you react in the way they trained you to do. So, this time she involved your son in her games and it backfired. Most narcs have just a few predictable tricks and since they did not work on you this time, she is going to freak out. Watch out for the Smear Campaign of the Century against you and perhaps the blame shifting to your DH as he is your support system and she might blame him for turning you and the kids against her. 

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The nice thing about a smear campaign is that she doesn’t live in my town, we don’t have any other family, and she doesn’t have internet! So all she can do is call me, or mail stuff to me I guess😆 I don’t even know the ladies she goes to church with so very little of it will hit me.

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Get in the car and start driving - you can get to my house in time for Thanksgiving...I mean, the last time I invited friends to a "family" event my mom threw a tantrum but her tantrum will make ME feel guilty not you. 

I dont have Tacos planned but I can make some if your kids want lol and I have pie. 

(friends whose husband/father was deployed ... Air Force Family is family mom. F off.) 

Edited by theelfqueen
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42 minutes ago, saraha said:

I want to talk to her about it, I just don’t know when.

It won't help. You'll just get more of the same out of her.

Think about it. To recover from being an abuser, one must face the dreadful things one has done and actually feel the shame. It's too hard, and that's why narcs don't recover and become healthy people. It'd be too terrifying.

If you want to keep contact, you'll need to do like Gardenmom said about her grandmother. 

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3 minutes ago, theelfqueen said:

Get in the car and start driving - you can get to my house in time for Thanksgiving...I mean the last time I invited friends to a "family" event my mom threw a tantrum but her tantrum will make ME feel guilty not you. 

I dont have Tacos planned but I can make some if your kids want lol

(friends whose husband/father was deployed ... Air Force Family is family mom. F off.) 

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

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1 hour ago, saraha said:

So she just called and left a voicemail. She just said this is all a big mistake. It’s all a big misunderstanding. Are you going to let this come between us? You can’t believe everything you hear. Long pause, big sigh, well, you are a grown person, I guess you are going to do what you are going do.

Not sure what this means. It’s not an apology, right? And is she now saying my sister lied by saying I can’t believe everything I hear? She’s the one who canceled thanksgiving. Ugh. I’m sorry to be working this out in real time with all of you but dh won’t be home til late and now the dread and second guessing and just wanting to smooth it over is here

ETA: she left a similar, less patient message on house phone. I was in the shower and luckily ds11 asked if he should answer it for some reason, so I was able to say no. I wonder what made him ask if he should answer instead of just doing it? The kids don’t know a thing yet

Kids are perceptive.
 

She’s gaslighting you. She’s not taking responsibility, and she’s pointing fingers at everyone else. This not an apology. It’s not your mess to fix or smooth over. 

She got your kids involved and tried to use them. Game over. Remember that. Every time you feel your resolve weakening, remember that she tried to use your kids in her battle with your sister and then turned on you when you didn’t want her to do that. 

I’d unplug the house phone and silence your cell phone until after the holiday. You said she lives an hour away? Be prepared for her to show up at the door and have a plan for what happens when (not if; *when*) she does. 
 

Have you heard from your sister? Because I’d bet solid money she’ll call soon with a story about how “we’re all family” and “we shouldn’t let this come between us” and “can’t we just let this go and invite mom?” Be ready for that too. 

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1 minute ago, saraha said:

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

There's still time to go out tomorrow and buy food for Thanksgiving dinner, or you and your family can go out to eat.

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5 minutes ago, saraha said:

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

I have gotten smoked Turkey and delicious sides from a BBQ place before.

Or ask each person in your family-what do you want for Thanksgiving and do that (even if it means one of them wants whipped cream from a can and one wants pancakes and one wants frozen pizza) ... encourage them to be crazy and just pick random stuff -- remember it all started because "your kids want tacos" ~~eye roll~~ so give them what they want. 

 

Sarah. You've got this. 

Edited by theelfqueen
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6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It won't help. You'll just get more of the same out of her.

Think about it. To recover from being an abuser, one must face the dreadful things one has done and actually feel the shame. It's too hard, and that's why narcs don't recover and become healthy people. It'd be too terrifying.

If you want to keep contact, you'll need to do like Gardenmom said about her grandmother. 

This is so true. And I agree that if you're going to have any contact with her, you need to set strict rules!

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2 minutes ago, Forget-Me-Not said:

Kids are perceptive.
 

She’s gaslighting you. She’s not taking responsibility, and she’s pointing fingers at everyone else. This not an apology. It’s not your mess to fix or smooth over. 

She got your kids involved and tried to use them. Game over. Remember that. Every time you feel your resolve weakening, remember that she tried to use your kids in her battle with your sister and then turned on you when you didn’t want her to do that. 

I’d unplug the house phone and silence your cell phone until after the holiday. You said she lives an hour away? Be prepared for her to show up at the door and have a plan for what happens when (not if; *when*) she does. 
 

Have you heard from your sister? Because I’d bet solid money she’ll call soon with a story about how “we’re all family” and “we shouldn’t let this come between us” and “can’t we just let this go and invite mom?” Be ready for that too. 

Mom is probably trying to get sister to do exactly that. If it were me and I wasn't sure I could stand up for myself, I wouldn't answer the phone at all.

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1 minute ago, saraha said:

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

You can go full Christmas Story and choose something entirely different so you're not comparing it to your previous Thanksgivings.  One year instead of our usual 20+ people, several were traveling and we only had 12 for Christmas. We took our cue from Ralphie's dad and ordered Chinese food and lit fireworks, 2 things we'd never done before.  It was fun!

You can watch stand up comedian Ronnie Cheng (sp?) as he talks about Thanksgiving meaning nothing to Asian people, so they're open for the holidays. (It's got F bombs, so it's not for most people's littles.)

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3 minutes ago, saraha said:

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

what do you want to do? 

order pizza and watch movies (or, the family watches movies while you stare, catatonically, at the wall...)?

 

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Boston Market used to make a really good dinner. I'd order that, or a cooked bird (chicken or turkey) and easy sides from a grocery store. You need a good break. Only do what feels fun to you and your family. 

You are showing your kids what treatment they should accept in future relationships. Be strong. Big hugs!

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12 minutes ago, saraha said:

Oh my gosh, what ARE we going to do for thanksgiving?!? Sis never got back to me about a place to meet and I doubt we’ll find something tomorrow! I don’t have any idea what we should do!

You are going to have a really fun day with your dh and kids. Figure out what you want to eat, get up and shop early and then plan a day of your family’s favorite activities. Set aside some time to say what you’re thankful for and enjoy not being abused for the day. Your sister hasn’t called you back because your mom has her convinced she can change your mind and everything will go back to normal. 

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