The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I want verse by verse teaching of actual Bible passages. I want them explained in a way that makes it understandable to a modern audience with the appropriate background information and broader context given. But neither the pastor nor the church itself is qualified to apply scripture to my life. That’s God the Holy Spirit’s job. So while my faith informs my life, including the principles I use to make political decisions, it is not a political faith. My true citizenship (from a biblical perspective) is in heaven, not anywhere on earth. (I do believe that I have a secular civic duty to vote.). 

We had the most wonderful teacher in Hawaii. The pastor has since retired but I love what he did for our church/us as a family. It was perfect for a new family of four, very active with family and service events that included the whole congregation, not various segmented 'ministries'. We didn't always agree but we knew to our core that we were loved, appreciated, and valued for our gifts. When Pastor D got a shoutout from DH on a random family beach day, we were excused from new member classes. LOL.

Edited October 8, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Happy2BaMom]

On 10/7/2021 at 2:01 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been hearing for years how the "liberal" mainline churches are all dying. But that's actually not true. We sometimes attend an Episcopal church. They have young families. They are full on Sunday. And they even open the Bible. 

I think it's kind of unfair to say that a mainline church "barely even opened the Bible." I think we all know that isn't true. 

I also know many people, including myself, who have left conservative churches since 2016. 

You're not wrong. In the most recent PRRI survey (July, 2021), white mainline Christians were up by ~3.5% over the last five years (to 16% overall). By comparison, during that same period, evangelicals dropped by more than 2%, to 14.5%.

[ktgrok]

28 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

A group that takes tax deductible donations can't tell you to who to vote for. However, if there wasn't such a law then I think a church could tell people who to vote for. The Catholic workers don't tax deductible donations because they don't to be involved with the government at all. 

There's nothing morally wrong with a church leader telling people that a vote for one candidate is not consistent with the church's teachings. Everything is lesser evil. There is no pure vote. I think it was immoral to vote for a particular candidate in a recent election. Obviously many disagree. People disagree about morality. 

We have the idea in the USA that politics aren't polite discussion. I think it comes from being a pluralistic country. But ultimately it's based on the assumption that politics don't matter that much. We have all of those stories like how Ted Kennedy was best friends with Orrin Hatch and how Scalia and Ginsberg were best friends. 

But politics are life and death. 

If politics didn't really matter that much then people could agree to disagree. But can you agree to disagree with people who want you to die or want to prevent policies that could save your life? 

Who benefits from passivity about politics, i.e. that it doesn't matter, every politician is the same, etc? 

Right, but we do have that law. 

And you don't have to agree to disagree, but you can disagree by stating your stance, your reasons, etc or you can disagree by swearing and screaming. 

I think you know I do NOT believe all politicians are alike, or that we shouldn't discuss things just because they are difficult topics or stir up big emotions. I was reffering to a particular sermon where the pastor was reaffirming that we are not to try to drive people out of the church because we don't like their politics, or to start calling them obscenities on facebook. That doesn't mean shying away from discussion of hard things, or things people disagree on. I do think that happens, but it's not what was happening here. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I understand that. I was responding to your posts but engaging more with the discussion about the other churches where politics isn't discussed. 

Ah, gotcha!  I was like, "no...I swear...my church isn't like that!" lol. The pastor was just saying hey, if people leave because they don't like what we are teaching here, that's on them. But it is not our place to chase them out by attacking them on facebook, etc etc. 

Because I totally agree that things like civil rights, justice, mercy, the environment, etc are absolutely things we should be talking about in churches! 

Edited October 8, 2021 by ktgrok

[klmama]

I don't understand why you think a house of worship having an armed guard means you can't leave your politics at the door.  My church has an armed security team made up of off-duty or former law enforcement or military present in every service, just in case of attack by who-knows-who-or-why.  Crazies wanting to hurt people while they worship come in all stripes.    

 

 

[ktgrok]

9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I went to synagogue tonight for the first time in about 20 years. There was an armed guard outside which was sobering. It made me think that the ability to leave politics at the door of your church is a privilege that some people don't have. 

 

I get what you mean, but I will say that the Catholic churches near me all have armed police at every service, as does the Episcopal parish I attended. 

[Starr]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I get what you mean, but I will say that the Catholic churches near me all have armed police at every service, as does the Episcopal parish I attended. 

I hadn't heard this. Are they afraid of shooters?

[klmama]

After the highly publicized church shootings in recent years, many churches have started having armed guards/off-duty police present during services.  Even if there is no one in uniform or visibly carrying, there may be law enforcement among members of the congregation who are carrying at church in case of emergency.  

[SlowRiver]

The mega church models is pretty outside my experiences in my own church, although I do know of a few mega-church types in our denomination down in Texas. It's never been common in any denomination here, I suspect for a few reasons related to the community aspect. One being that this part of the country was settled early so older congregations are within walking distance of communities and tend to be physically small. And the other that there was never enough money to supprt that kind of thing. There's one mega church on the outskirts of the city now, that is part of an American evangelical church plant, and a few older ones built on a similar model but they just don't have the same size.

It always strikes me that they are the natural for Christianity would take in a capitalist society.

The leadership element is a real problem in these groups. It's a real two edged sword with a strong charismatic leader and you can get those anywhere. My current parish had one for many years, a nice man and very talented, able to bring about some amazing and fantastic things from the congregation. But it's also hard to avoid the personality becoming a focus, some people can mix it up with the real message and work of the church. And everyone has flaws and in a charismatic personality those can be reflected and become magnified in the congregation as well as the good things. Plus if you get an abusive personality there is a lot of damage that can be done.

My denomination has an episcopal structure, which can mitigate against some of these things, I think. The historical tendency to have parishes tied very much to geographic areas (though in the UK this is being undermined.) The priest is answerable both to the parish council and wardens, and also to several people higher up the line. And, importantly, doesn't control the money. Parishes are required to do audits and there are a lot of rules about financial matters with oversight. And there are limits around the religious teachings and services as well, so there is only so much an individual rector can do to change them.

[HS Mom in NC]

30 minutes ago, Starr said:

I hadn't heard this. Are they afraid of shooters?

Not just shooters, but that happens now.  Security at a church I attended before the pandemic was in discussions about getting shirts that read STAFF, so if there was a shooter people would know staff members were telling them to get on the ground or giving them directions to get to a safer area.

That's not the only issue.  Their job included keeping an eye out for a person a member had a restraining order against. It was mentioned causally in conversation, so I assume anyone with that kind of threat against them can let them know and give them a picture.   The church "bouncer" (not his official title) looks like pro football player and is the nicest sweetest guy who greets people and chats very pleasantly, putting people at ease.  He has training to subdue an assailant. When the guy with the restraining order showed up the church "bouncer" was able to convince him to leave without even raising his voice. "What are doing here, man? There are plenty of other churches to attend if that's what you want."

They also had a stalker who would showed up repeatedly when there were women's only activities, so the "bouncer" would be around for those too. The music leader's day job was a police officer who works with gangs in the city.  I don't mean just arresting them, I mean working to build bridges. She's a nice lady, but she's no stranger to subduing violent people. There are even a few members there with ankle monitors and many former criminals no longer serving sentences or living that life.  Sometimes people like that have dangerous enemies from their old life.

My grandparents attended a church where back in the 1980s, a mentally disturbed man walked in during the service and started ranting crazy talk from pulpit pushing the pastor away.  Several deacons tackled him and held him while the police showed up.

[SlowRiver]

On 10/7/2021 at 3:01 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I've been hearing for years how the "liberal" mainline churches are all dying. But that's actually not true. We sometimes attend an Episcopal church. They have young families. They are full on Sunday. And they even open the Bible. 

I think it's kind of unfair to say that a mainline church "barely even opened the Bible." I think we all know that isn't true. 

I also know many people, including myself, who have left conservative churches since 2016. 

It's one of those things that has some truth to it, but at the same time the pattern isn't completely predictable. Part of the confusing might stem from how people understand the word "conservative" because it doesn't always map on to religious observance well.  So if conservative means a fundamentalist, evangelical group, that might map on to American conservative politics. If it means something like the Catholic Church, that's another kettle of fish and many of those people don't fit well under any political flag. But at the moment the Catholics, and especially the traditional Catholics, and the Orthodox, are growing a fair bit and they would generally be seen as socially if not politically conservative.

There was an interesting book though, the title of which escapes me at the moment, about the pattern of belief in families over generations, and it gives some insight into the problems progressive congregations have. Over the generations the tendency is for a family to go from a more conservative or traditional sort of church, to a more mainstream progressive church, and then over a few generations they become Christmas and Easter Christians. The difficulty being that those people don't sustain the church.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Starr said:

I hadn't heard this. Are they afraid of shooters?

I honestly am not sure why tey are there - my current church does not, and is the same size as the Episcopal one I used to go to, so not based on size. 

[Faith-manor]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I honestly am not sure why tey are there - my current church does not, and is the same size as the Episcopal one I used to go to, so not based on size. 

It could be for the children. We went, years ago, to a large church with a very robust Children's ministries, tons of kids. Due to some issues with ugly divorces, non custodial parents up to no good, they had to have a security team just to make sure no one attempted to take children for whom they had no custody or visitation. They were also nervous about attracting the registered sex offender/pedophile who was living with his folks less than a mile away. They were just very nervous about that and decided to have a security staff person at each entry/exit.

[Faith-manor]

I think that it is very difficult to maintain the religion from generation to generation because it is human nature to challenge the status quo, ask questions. Eventually, like a house of cards, it comes down to, for a lot of folks, the existence of several thousand denominations, and everyone arguing over what their scriptures actually mean without very much consensus, is discouraging if not just a total off. Though we were raised traditionally christian, then had a LOT of issues with scriptural interpretatIon, moved to a more moderate church, then to a progressive one because we just could not stomach much of the rhetoric around LGBTQ persons, then to me and the kids one by one leaving the faith, to dh now feeling very deist but not christian. We know numerous folks who look back across their lives and now see that they really do not think anything theologically can be known for certain. I suspect that this trend will get worse before it gets better.

Within the UMC, the division is huge. They are going to split in 2022, it is about a 95% sure thing as there is an ecclesiastical agreement for it. Most of the young folks are in the group that will become progressive, and that is going to take nearly all of the large churches and the urban churches. Most of the traditional churches are rural, unfortunately for them two and three point charges who cannot maintain a full time pastor, low numbers, and almost entirely folks over 65, average age being in the 70's. But it should also be noted that while the UMC is growing overseas partIcularly in Africa and Indonesia and will remain traditional, in the USA it is on the brink of serious trouble. So many of the traditional churches are within five -ten years of closing. And while GenX, Millenial, and Gen Z members are in the progressive chuches, Milennial and Gen Z are not there in large numbers so the new version of Methodism may not have more than 10 years before it is suddenly in very big trouble when the bulk of the membership becoming pensioners.

The Mark Driscolls of the world, the Dougs, the Rick Warrens, the RC Sprouls, the Mahanneys, the Haggards, the Falwells, and the so very many others do NOT make the situation any better. Add to that, the mixture of extreme political positions in with "theology" has made it exponentially worse. I am not sure if going forward it is feasible to view Christianity as a faith that is handed down from generation to generation/to think of the Christian church as one dependent on retention instead of new converts. I don't know that retention is an option unless there are radical changes within organized christianity regardless of mainstream, evangelical, or fundamentalist bent.

I do think that churches that welcome questions, include LGBTQ community, do not pretend to have the answers to life in a neatly wrapped box, do not feel threatened by a plurality of ideas, have open leadership with significant accountability and safety practices, and are "feed the poor, cloth the naked, and love everybody" will have a better shot at standing the test of time than those who continue more traditional practices.

But if the gospel is to be believed, christianity was not supposed to be a numbers game, most certainly not a celebrity game. These two issues becoming the end all be all for very visible churches has been devastating to the view of church in a postmodern world.

For those of you living in the UK, Scandinavia, etc. where certain faiths are state sponsored how is the generstional thing working out, and do you have as much issue with celebrity leadership status and scandal?

[Jean in Newcastle]

My understanding of Christianity is that it is not a "family generation" thing.  In other words, each person has their individual relationship with God (or not).  So even if generations of a family are Christians (as is in part of my family), each individual made their own decision / their own relationship with God.  The linkage is being in God's family together in addition to the human family but one didn't bleed into another. 

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My understanding of Christianity is that it is not a "family generation" thing.  In other words, each person has their individual relationship with God (or not).  So even if generations of a family are Christians (as is in part of my family), each individual made their own decision / their own relationship with God.  The linkage is being in God's family together in addition to the human family but one didn't bleed into another. 

I think where it became a generational thing is when homeschooling for religious reasons became a thing, and then followed by a rise in "bring them up" thinking spurred by Ken Ham, The Dougs, etc. I saw a shift in churches changing from an individual faith teaching to a "parents clamp down on your kids so they can't leave the church" and this infiltrated even mainstream churches. And or course there are many family covenant type Christian organizations, SGM, IFB, etc., and among them, again, many celebrity preachers. Unfortunately in our area, we have witnessed a real ooze of this theology into churches who, 50 years ago, never thought this way. Reconstructionism/Dominionism movements really made the move to the forefront, and those are the ones that have had a impact on conservative politics and blended the boundaries.

[Laura Corin]

It's an interesting  series - completely outside of my experience. Thank you for mentioning it @fairfarmhand

[HS Mom in NC]

Other factors I think are in play in the Mars Hill situation:

It happened in a place with very few churches.  I assume that means they had new converts with little to no background in church, so they didn't have a subconscious red flag system already developed in their psyches. If you've never been around a solid church before, you don't have anything to compare the one you're attending to.

I come from the young, restless, and reformed world and Driscoll has relocated to the East Valley of PHX very close to where I lived for 45 years. I know some of that crowd in that area that's a range of people who gravitate to Reformed Theology in a contemporary worship styled church. There's definitely a group comfortable with much of Driscoll's theology. The groups I was around wouldn't have tolerated his sexual content in sermons, lack of scripture, and his views on demons. When I found out about their kind of "Biblical" counseling and observed some misogynistic attitudes coming from one of the elders I was outta there.  Word got back to me it was getting worse. Yeah, I thought it was easy to predict it would.  Apparently other people couldn't see it or they liked it.   Some people left and others came looking for just that.

Another factor is play is what I call "righteousness by relative positioning."  It's the subconscious tendency to look at something you think is wrong and decide that the best place to go is as far in the opposite direction as possible.  So anything the Bible calls sexual sin, a certain type of Christian will feel more righteous the more extreme they get, regardless of the Bible going nowhere near their extreme position.  As society gets more positive about LGTBQ issues, that type of Christian will go to an extreme form of traditional gender roles and toxic sexuality. As society gets more positive about the full range of masculinity and femininity, that type of Christian gets more extremely traditional in their views of gender to the point of being ridiculous.

[SlowRiver]

4 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

My understanding of Christianity is that it is not a "family generation" thing.  In other words, each person has their individual relationship with God (or not).  So even if generations of a family are Christians (as is in part of my family), each individual made their own decision / their own relationship with God.  The linkage is being in God's family together in addition to the human family but one didn't bleed into another. 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Worldwide and historically, outside of periods of significant change, most people have largely believed what their parents and society at large believed. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, SlowRiver said:

I'm not sure what you mean here. Worldwide and historically, outside of periods of significant change, most people have largely believed what their parents and society at large believed. 

I mean that  I believe the Bible teaches that each of us stand before God on the merits of our own belief in the gospel. I don’t care about the worldwide or historical views on cultural religion. 

[SlowRiver]

5 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I mean that  I believe the Bible teaches that each of us stand before God on the merits of our own belief in the gospel. I don’t care about the worldwide or historical views on cultural religion. 

Interesting, I'd have said we stand on the merits of Christ.

But either way, I don't think it's arguable that culture and family life strongly impact how people understand the world and the nature of God, which is going to impact faith formation. We don't exist in isolation.

[ScoutTN]

On 10/8/2021 at 10:18 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

I went to synagogue tonight for the first time in about 20 years. There was an armed guard outside which was sobering. It made me think that the ability to leave politics at the door of your church is a privilege that some people don't have. 

 

Every synogogue I have ever been in or near has armed security. So does every large church and many medium sized ones in my city. And probably the mosques and the Hindu temple.

Makes me sad that this is our reality.

Edited October 10, 2021 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

13 hours ago, Starr said:

I hadn't heard this. Are they afraid of shooters?

Yes. That is the world we live in.
 

I sub in a small Christian school. They have shooter/lockdown drills, just like fire drills. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by ScoutTN

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

Interesting, I'd have said we stand on the merits of Christ.

But either way, I don't think it's arguable that culture and family life strongly impact how people understand the world and the nature of God, which is going to impact faith formation. We don't exist in isolation.

Well, yes.  Christ did the work on the cross.  Our belief is non-meritorious.  But it's still individual.  As is often said "God has no grandchildren".  (no idea who said that first.)  I grew up in a non-Western country which still had believers in Christ. . .   they still had their own culture and family life but responded to the gospel message from the Bible. 

[SlowRiver]

It's the comparison though, isn't it? Many mainstream groups like the Episcopal church have an astonishingly small number in attendance on a weekly basis, compared to what they once were. There are some successful parishes that grow, but more that seem to be just disappearing. At a certain point that's a problem because a few scattered parishes here and there doesn't have much coherence. 

But the trend for traditional Catholics to gain more seems indicative to me, in part because it mirrors what I see in other churches pretty much across the board. People want a church that seems very engaged, that has something like a coherent story and wants them to really ask more of themselves, often they seem to want a connection to the past as well . They don't want the kind of place that seems to just mirror what they'd find in a self-help book or social do-gooder club. They want it to offer something spiritually transcendent and challenging too.

Covid has overall been good for many churches but who knows whether that will stick. I hope so, but it's difficult to say.

[scholastica]

On 10/9/2021 at 12:37 PM, Jean in Newcastle said:

My understanding of Christianity is that it is not a "family generation" thing.  In other words, each person has their individual relationship with God (or not).  So even if generations of a family are Christians (as is in part of my family), each individual made their own decision / their own relationship with God.  The linkage is being in God's family together in addition to the human family but one didn't bleed into another. 

I agree with you on this. I’ve heard the saying “God has kids but no grandkids.” So my kids as adults have the decision to make for themselves. My children and I are all considered his children and brothers and sisters in Christ in that sense. I do not transmit the faith the way I transmit my DNA. (If only!!) They have to choose to accept salvation for themselves.

[Danae]

2 hours ago, SlowRiver said:

It's the comparison though, isn't it? Many mainstream groups like the Episcopal church have an astonishingly small number in attendance on a weekly basis, compared to what they once were. 

Mainline church membership was inflated for decades based on the cultural assumption that all fine upstanding citizens go to church. Whether you believed or not you showed up if you wanted to be considered respectable. (Members of non-Christian religions excepted, but often with an asterisk on “respectable.”)   Now that that assumption has faded and people go to church because they’ve made an affirmative decision to do so, yes, attendance will be smaller.  

[TravelingChris]

On 10/7/2021 at 5:02 AM, DawnM said:

I have been listening to a podcast that mentions him and his role in contributing to the current conditions of evangelicalism.   The podcast is excellent (and there is also a book by the same title).  It is called Jesus and John Wayne.   I highly recommend it.

It is time for some real change in the church and while I am a semi-deconstructionist at this time, I am not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater.   The church can do better.   It has to.   I am still struggling to find my place in the church, but the mega church model is all about numbers and dollars.    We have a mega church here that makes me sick.   You have probably heard of it if you are in the evangelical world.   It is called Elevation, with Steven Furtick.   I could go on and on about the issues there.......

Anyway, my main point in posting was to recommend the Jesus and John Wayne book and podcast.

Oh could you tell me about Elevation== my future daughter in law is watching this, I just realized.

[HS Mom in NC]

@DawnM You might be interested in Church Refugees by Packard. I recommend the book Jesus and John Wayne too. Thanks for the heads up on the podcast. That's what I'll be doing this week. It's what I was seeing in many of the Southern Baptist churches I attended from the 70s-mid 90s in the SW.

When God Left the Building is a documentary on plummeting church membership.  Here's a link to the DVD, but I watched it for much less somewhere online.  I can't remember where and I'm not in the mood to go looking.
https://www.amazon.com/When-Left-Building-Group-Productions/dp/1470742136/ref=sr_1_1?crid=11NHJ62R440LT&dchild=1&keywords=when+god+left+the+building&qid=1633916284&sprefix=when+God+left+the+%2Caps%2C197&sr=8-1

Other recommended reading (not that I agree with every single idea in each book):

Why Nobody Wants to go to Church Anymore by Shultz
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nobody-Wants-Church-Anymore/dp/0764488449/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2NECKZM6LV4P6&dchild=1&keywords=why+no+one+wants+to+go+to+church&qid=1633915667&sprefix=why+no+one+want%2Caps%2C184&sr=8-5
Church Refugees by Packard
https://www.amazon.com/Church-Refugees-Sociologists-reveal-people/dp/1470725924/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Church+Refugees+by+Packard&qid=1633915776&sr=8-1
Back-pocket God by Denton
https://www.amazon.com/Back-Pocket-God-Religion-Spirituality/dp/0190064781/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Back-pocket+God+by+Denton&qid=1633915878&sr=8-1
The Immoral Majority by Howe
https://www.amazon.com/Immoral-Majority-Good-Christians-Leaders-ebook/dp/B075WW678P/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=The+Immoral+Majority+by+Howe&qid=1633915924&sr=8-1
 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Plateau Mama]

We went to Mars Hill for 4-6 weeks.   Our church was going under so we gave our building etc. to Mars Hill.  My husband was the middle school director at the time so we had an inside view when the transition happened. This was a couple of years or so before the big Mars Hill implosion. I have been listening to this series and I will say a couple of the episodes were very upsetting/trigging for me.  

We used to refer to it as doctrine according to Mark Driscoll.  Mark never hired seminary trained pastors for his campuses.  He always hired "nontrained" pastors and trained them through Mars Hill University or whatever it was called.  He would never allow outside sources, curriculum, bible studies, books etc.  Children's ministry, women's ministry etc. all had to use content he wrote.  Not his staff, him.  When we handed over the church they said that they would not change any of our programs for a year.  Then they immediately changed them because and I quote from Mark "I don't know who Beth Moore is, so we can't use it.". and "Oh we didn't say for a year, we said until the end of the year." It was his way or the highway.  The youth leaders of the old church questioned some of the things they were doing, because we knew our kids and our families and they were told "You do not question how we do things. Ever.  If you don't like what we are doing then you can just leave."   

We were told that main service was family friendly.  They did not have classes for kids outside of the littles.  The last straw for me was when he started talking about masturbation during service.  I had my 4th & 6th grader in the "family friendly" service (and no other place for them).  I got up and walked out and told my husband I was never going back.  He also said either in that service or the one before I can't remember, that after he married Grace he found out she had been raped before they were married.  He said if he had known that he would not have married her. I could not believe that a) he would feel that way and b) that he had no shame telling this to the entire church.

 

[DawnM]

9 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Oh could you tell me about Elevation== my future daughter in law is watching this, I just realized.

There are many things.   Many.   You can do some research yourself, but here are a few highlights:

• He loves to say things for the shock value.   He will use swear words from the pulpit without any context or reason, just to be "relevant" to the culture.
• He doesn't have any accountability for money or teaching, he is his own entity.   $500 jeans worn on Sunday that he mentions from the pulpit,  expensive house and cars, etc....
• He gave out worksheets to the children's Sunday school that had HIS name and picture to color, not anything Biblical.
• He has plants in the audience come forward during service planted at various strategic places in the audience to show how people come to the alter when he preaches.
• He had fired people for questioning him or saying anything against him
• He even produced a "rap" youtube for anyone who disagrees with him (some local pastors called him out on some things) and it is called, "Haters"
• anti-mask, said no one can tell him when he can or can't meet and had a large gathering where many came down with Covid
• there is a lot more, but I would have to do some digging.