What Cornell wants from homeschoolers

[Bristayl]

https://cornelladmissions.happyfox.com/kb/article/4-homeschool/

>>Students who have been schooled at home are welcome to apply for admission to Cornell. Without an independent high school transcript, selection committees require additional information to evaluate the depth and variety of a student's experience. Applicants should submit the following for all four years prior to entering college:

1) English: list of books (including textbooks and other anthologies) you have read each year; how many papers and how long (indicate which are creative and which are expository writing); any research papers (list titles and length of each).

2) Social Studies: list of textbooks and books you have read each year; how many papers (topics listed) and how long; what independent research projects (titles and length).

3) Foreign Language: list of textbooks you have read each year; list of projects and/or papers; descriptions and dates of visits to other countries.

4) Science: list of textbooks you have used each year (description of topics covered if you did not use a textbook or used only part of the book); list of experiments and/or field trips; any projects or research done (titles and time spent).

5) Mathematics: list of textbooks (covering which topics) you have used each year; any independent projects (titles and time spent).

 In addition, applicants should submit transcripts from any college course(s) they have completed, and review our standardized testing policies website.<<

 

Edited to remove a personal bit

Edited October 7, 2021 by Bristayl

[kokotg]

Wow--Cornell sure does think a lot of itself (compared to, say, Harvard)! That kind of thing is always an immediate turn off for me, and it definitely reads like they'd rather not bother with homeschoolers. 

[regentrude]

This info you linked is located in a weird place that is not part of the official Cornell website. It is not hosted on the cornell.edu domain. I am wondering whether this article is actually an official list. There isn't even a menu item for homeschooled applicants on the main admissions page

FWIW, my homeschooled DD had been admitted to Cornell. We did not submit all this stuff; just a course description document.

Edited October 6, 2021 by regentrude

[Sebastian (a lady)]

34 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This info you linked is located in a weird place that is not part of the official Cornell website. It is not hosted on the cornell.edu domain. I am wondering whether this article is actually an official list. There isn't even a menu item for homeschooled applicants on the main admissions page

FWIW, my homeschooled DD had been admitted to Cornell. We did not submit all this stuff; just a course description document.

I agree that this website looks scammy. I'm pretty sure it is scrapping info about Cornell to create a look alike site.

However, I'll also say that the requirements mentioned aren't that far from what is often included in course descriptions. So while I don't think this is what Cornell is asking for, it would not be that high of a bar.

One of our young homeschool friends is a senior at Cornell.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I can't find these requirements anywhere on the Cornell University website.

[kokotg]

Okay, I found a discussion about this from 2017 on college confidential. It looks like this USED to be on the college of engineering's website.

https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/requirements-for-homeschoolers-at-cornell/1892236/9

Edited October 7, 2021 by kokotg

[kokotg]

oops, never mind--still there: https://www.engineering.cornell.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/first-year-applicants#home

It looks like it's a school of engineering specific list. I agree that a lot of that information is in most course descriptions, but a list of every paper you've ever written is pretty excessive, IMO (and what good does it do if they don't ask to actually see any of the papers?)

[Garga]

I have all that info for my student. But I’m also crazy-organized with things like that, so sometimes what seems normal to me isn’t normal to anyone else.  

Is that an overly burdensome list?  I don’t see it that way, but my kids aren’t applying to top tier schools like Cornell, so maybe I just don’t know what I’m talking about.

[Farrar]

Putting aside that this isn't actually Cornell's advice... Honestly, I wish homeschoolers would stop getting up in arms about being asked for a simple book list. If your book list isn't brag worthy and going to be an asset that you can show off, your kid probably shouldn't apply to Cornell anyway. 

[kokotg]

18 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Putting aside that this isn't actually Cornell's advice... Honestly, I wish homeschoolers would stop getting up in arms about being asked for a simple book list. If your book list isn't brag worthy and going to be an asset that you can show off, your kid probably shouldn't apply to Cornell anyway. 

it's the titles/topics from every paper written for 4 years that seems like overkill to me. That said, if I had a kid who wanted to apply to Cornell engineering, I'd go back and add more detail re: number and types of papers written to my course descriptions, but they probably wouldn't get the title of every paper. 

[Bristayl]

I already have a simple book list. This struck me as more than that, and assumes for example that we have the wherewithal to visit other countries for foreign language study. However, I should be able to gather this information from my records. I guess I reacted because I was getting ready to submit my counselor materials and was checking around for anything I had missed when I found this and discovered I wasn't done after all!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

5 hours ago, Bristayl said:

I already have a simple book list. This struck me as more than that, and assumes for example that we have the wherewithal to visit other countries for foreign language study. However, I should be able to gather this information from my records. I guess I reacted because I was getting ready to submit my counselor materials and was checking around for anything I had missed when I found this and discovered I wasn't done after all!

I don't see this as expecting the student needed to go to other countries, but asking for it to be noted if they did. 

Before you expend a lot more work on your documents, call the admissions office and ask if the additional content is required and useful. 

 

 

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

Putting aside that this isn't actually Cornell's advice... Honestly, I wish homeschoolers would stop getting up in arms about being asked for a simple book list. If your book list isn't brag worthy and going to be an asset that you can show off, your kid probably shouldn't apply to Cornell anyway. 

A booklist isn't a big deal, but I am strongly of the opinion that that list is ridiculous and I would walk the other way bc of it.  The title and length of every research paper across subjects? List of all projects across subjects?  Lists of dates and visits to other countries?  That is absurd, and yes, if you want to call my attitude "up in arms,"  I'll embrace it.

Asking for course descriptions, resources used, approx number of papers, example of a title/length, types of projects.....that might fall into my "jump through the hoops" level of toleration, but definitely not the expectations as given.  They'd be better off asking for a sample of work (a research paper) if they wanted meaningful information.

Edited October 7, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 hour ago, 8filltheheart said:

A booklist isn't a big deal, but I am strongly of the opinion that that list is ridiculous and I would walk the other way bc of it.  The title and length of every research paper across subjects? List of all projects across subjects?  Lists of dates and visits to other countries?  That is absurd, and yes, if you want to call my attitude "up in arms,"  I'll embrace it.

Asking for course descriptions, resources used, approx number of papers, example of a title/length, types of projects.....that might fall into my "jump through the hoops" level of toleration, but definitely not the expectations as given.  They'd be better off asking for a sample of work (a research paper) if they wanted meaningful information.

That's interesting, because the way I've imagined the documentation you might submit for some of your kids isn't that far from this list. 

How did you describe language study for your dd who did languages. Didn't she have significant projects to describe? 

I do think it's more effective for a college to say these are the types of information we must have and this is what may also be helpful. Rather than a blanket statement that we want all of this for every course across all subjects. 

I also think colleges that turn down 90% of applicants are trying to discern who did deep academic work like a foreign language fairy tale project and who did Duolingo on alternate Thursdays. And who is somewhere in between. 

[fourisenough]

If my kid were interested in Cornell, I’d simply submit my course descriptions (which contain much, but not all of the info detailed above). They could take it or leave it. It’s important to remember who is the customer here— we’re paying them, not the other way around. There are plenty of other schools (even highly -selective schools that have much more favorable attitudes toward homeschoolers) out there. 

[Farrar]

I think one of the shifts in admissions over the last decade or so that I see that keeps surprising a lot of homeschoolers is a move toward caring a lot more about rigor of coursework. They have ways of assessing that through school profiles and so forth for schooled kids. Course descriptions and book lists are their primary way to assess that for homeschoolers. I agree that asking about every paper is way overkill. But this wasn't actually Cornell doing that. And what I envision is not a laundry list of assignments, but rather a characterization.

"Work for this course included short essays of approximately two pages about each topic and a document-based question using primary sources for each unit. The student completed a longer research paper of approximately 6-8 pages with appropriate citations on topics of their choosing in 20th century American history once per semester. The second of these, a paper about women's roles in World War II, included archival research at a local library."

That's usually plenty for most colleges. Of course, if you want to include a laundry list, then that's okay for some schools. But I really think this is an asset that homeschoolers are being offered by selective schools. You get more time with the reader's eyes on your kid. That's a bonus, not a drawback. And that's why I really believe homeschoolers should provide them even with schools don't ask.

Of course, there are plenty of schools - especially some state flagships - that are also top tier that do not care about course descriptions at all.

[kokotg]

5 minutes ago, Farrar said:

 But this wasn't actually Cornell doing that. And what I envision is not a laundry list of assignments, but rather a characterization.

 

It is from the Cornell School of Engineering admission FAQ. The original link doesn't go to Cornell's actual site, but I did some sleuthing and found it. 

One other thing I'd say is that our experience with my oldest is that when schools seem to have particularly onerous requirements for homeschoolers, there may be more flexibility than they let on. Emory said it required 3 subject tests for homeschoolers, but my son only had 2 and applied anyway; he was waitlisted and then eventually offered a spot off the waitlist at their Oxford campus. And University of Georgia wants to see either a test score or a grade on an accredited transcript for every required core class, AND I've been told by admissions that this means the student should complete all these classes by junior year before they apply. This is ridiculous and approaching impossible (and keeps a whole lot of homeschoolers from applying, which is why I think list likes this are SUPPOSED to seem overwhelming and discouraging), but my son was accepted (and auto admitted to the honors program) even though biology was still in progress senior year. So, yeah, my main issue is with the tone, as I read it. But it's possible that the people over at the engineering school are not as careful about how their tone is perceived as humanties-focused me wants them to be 😉

[RootAnn]

 

@Farrar Actually, it is on a Cornell Engineering page:

https://www.engineering.cornell.edu/admissions/undergraduate-admissions/first-year-applicants#home

How do you evaluate applicants who are home-schooled?

• In order to understand and appreciate the depth and variety of the homeschool experience, the admissions selection committee requires the following information for all four years prior to entering college:

• English: list of books (including all textbooks and other anthologies) you have read each year; how many papers and how long (indicate which are creative and which are expository writing); any research papers (list titles and length of each).
• Social Studies: list of textbooks and books you have read each year; how many papers (topics listed) and how long; independent research projects (titles and lengths).

[8filltheheart]

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think one of the shifts in admissions over the last decade or so that I see that keeps surprising a lot of homeschoolers is a move toward caring a lot more about rigor of coursework. They have ways of assessing that through school profiles and so forth for schooled kids. Course descriptions and book lists are their primary way to assess that for homeschoolers. I agree that asking about every paper is way overkill. But this wasn't actually Cornell doing that. And what I envision is not a laundry list of assignments, but rather a characterization.

"Work for this course included short essays of approximately two pages about each topic and a document-based question using primary sources for each unit. The student completed a longer research paper of approximately 6-8 pages with appropriate citations on topics of their choosing in 20th century American history once per semester. The second of these, a paper about women's roles in World War II, included archival research at a local library."

That's usually plenty for most colleges. Of course, if you want to include a laundry list, then that's okay for some schools. But I really think this is an asset that homeschoolers are being offered by selective schools. You get more time with the reader's eyes on your kid. That's a bonus, not a drawback. And that's why I really believe homeschoolers should provide them even with schools don't ask.

Of course, there are plenty of schools - especially some state flagships - that are also top tier that do not care about course descriptions at all.

I have had kids applying to colleges for more than 10 yrs.  I don't really see a major shift.   As has been previously noted, their request is not what your pretty typical course description states.  Their request is onerous.

Edited October 7, 2021 by 8filltheheart

[8filltheheart]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

That's interesting, because the way I've imagined the documentation you might submit for some of your kids isn't that far from this list. 

How did you describe language study for your dd who did languages. Didn't she have significant projects to describe? 

I do think it's more effective for a college to say these are the types of information we must have and this is what may also be helpful. Rather than a blanket statement that we want all of this for every course across all subjects. 

I also think colleges that turn down 90% of applicants are trying to discern who did deep academic work like a foreign language fairy tale project and who did Duolingo on alternate Thursdays. And who is somewhere in between. 

Giving a general description of how a course is approached is far different than listing every paper and every project.  No, I have never given that level of detail.  

[EKS]

Given the test optional fad and possibly more people homeschooling through high school, I think we are going to start seeing colleges asking for more detailed information from homeschoolers over the next several years. 

(My other prediction is that in about 10 years, things are going to swing back the other way to requiring testing of everybody again.)

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

Given the test optional fad and possibly more people homeschooling through high school, I think we are going to start seeing colleges asking for more detailed information from homeschoolers over the next several years. 

(My other prediction is that in about 10 years, things are going to swing back the other way to requiring testing of everybody again.)

Test optional is not really a thing. It’s a way for schools to just get more applications, and accept whom they would accept anyway, in a version of having cake and also eating it (if you look at last year’s data,students’ standardized test scores went down a bit, but the 25/75 percentiles at most selective schools actually went up. I was looking up the common data set of a college that has been “test optional” for many years—the percentage of accepted students that submitted tests was above 100% (which makes me think they not only submitted a test score, some students submitted both ACT and SAT 🤣).

and so, because it’s a win-win for colleges, I do not think “test optional” will go away anytime soon. I have some respect for schools like Georgetown who are transparent about their need for scores. 

[Farrar]

12 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Test optional is not really a thing. It’s a way for schools to just get more applications, and accept whom they would accept anyway, in a version of having cake and also eating it (if you look at last year’s data,students’ standardized test scores went down a bit, but the 25/75 percentiles at most selective schools actually went up. I was looking up the common data set of a college that has been “test optional” for many years—the percentage of accepted students that submitted tests was above 100% (which makes me think they not only submitted a test score, some students submitted both ACT and SAT 🤣).

and so, because it’s a win-win for colleges, I do not think “test optional” will go away anytime soon. I have some respect for schools like Georgetown who are transparent about their need for scores. 

I had several homeschool clients apply test optional, including to some very selective schools, in the last cycle, with good acceptances. So in that sense, it exists and is real.

It is not the best approach for all students or all schools.

[madteaparty]

35 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I had several homeschool clients apply test optional, including to some very selective schools, in the last cycle, with good acceptances. So in that sense, it exists and is real.

It is not the best approach for all students or all schools.

For sure there are anecdotes like this, especially for certain demographics. The data doesn’t seem to bear it out. 
 

Edited October 7, 2021 by madteaparty

[kokotg]

16 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Test optional is not really a thing. It’s a way for schools to just get more applications, and accept whom they would accept anyway, in a version of having cake and also eating it (if you look at last year’s data,students’ standardized test scores went down a bit, but the 25/75 percentiles at most selective schools actually went up. I was looking up the common data set of a college that has been “test optional” for many years—the percentage of accepted students that submitted tests was above 100% (which makes me think they not only submitted a test score, some students submitted both ACT and SAT 🤣).

and so, because it’s a win-win for colleges, I do not think “test optional” will go away anytime soon. I have some respect for schools like Georgetown who are transparent about their need for scores. 

It will be interesting to see how the big increase in test optional admissions affects things going forward. Pre-pandemic evidence was that going test optional tended to increase a school's diversity without a decline in graduation rates. 

I'm reading Jeffrey Selingo's Who Gets In and Why right now (I'm pretty addicted to behind the scenes in college admissions types of books), and he has a section in the intro about how test-optional policies affected things last year (after the bulk of the book was written). He reported that the admission rate was much higher at most of the schools he talked to for students who reported test scores than for students who applied test optional (at Emory, for example, it was 17% vs 8.6%). The people at admissions offices say that this is because the applicants submitting test scores tend to be stronger overall; i.e. they're not getting admitted at higher rates because they're submitting test scores. But, then again, what else would they say? "Sure, we say you can go test optional, but we don't really mean it, and you're way less likely to be admitted if you do"? Either way, I think the takeaway is the same: if you have strong test scores you should submit them; if you don't then you still have a shot at very selective colleges if the rest of your application is stellar. But I'm not sure how different that is now than in pre-test optional days. I think admissions committees (at least at schools with holistic admissions) were always willing to overlook lower test scores if a student had a strong application overall and, particularly, something else that the school was looking for to shape their class. 

[daijobu]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

One other thing I'd say is that our experience with my oldest is that when schools seem to have particularly onerous requirements for homeschoolers, there may be more flexibility than they let on. Emory said it required 3 subject tests for homeschoolers, but my son only had 2 and applied anyway; he was waitlisted and then eventually offered a spot off the waitlist at their Oxford campus. And University of Georgia wants to see either a test score or a grade on an accredited transcript for every required core class, AND I've been told by admissions that this means the student should complete all these classes by junior year before they apply. This is ridiculous and approaching impossible (and keeps a whole lot of homeschoolers from applying, which is why I think list likes this are SUPPOSED to seem overwhelming and discouraging), but my son was accepted (and auto admitted to the honors program) even though biology was still in progress senior year. So, yeah, my main issue is with the tone, as I read it. But it's possible that the people over at the engineering school are not as careful about how their tone is perceived as humanties-focused me wants them to be 😉

^^^This this this.  Exceptions are made for exceptional students, but one doesn't know if a student is exceptional until they apply.  If it is truly onerous, I would write that the required info is in the Course Descriptions and School Profile.  Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.  

I might also take a stab at approximating the information that was required, along the lines of @Farrar's suggestion.  

3 hours ago, Farrar said:

"Work for this course included short essays of approximately two pages about each topic and a document-based question using primary sources for each unit. The student completed a longer research paper of approximately 6-8 pages with appropriate citations on topics of their choosing in 20th century American history once per semester. 

I can imagine some gal on the admissions committee looking over the homeschooling requirements and thinking to herself, "Wow, those requirements are really out of line and not helpful anyway."  But if you've ever been part of a large org, you know that to get a front facing website changed requires meetings and approvals and TIME.  Probably not worth the effort just to be nice to homeschoolers.  

 

 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, madteaparty said:

Test optional is not really a thing.

That's what I used to think too.  But then the University of California went beyond test optional to not looking at scores at all, and my opinion evolved.

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, daijobu said:

I can imagine some gal on the admissions committee looking over the homeschooling requirements and thinking to herself, "Wow, those requirements are really out of line and not helpful anyway."  But if you've ever been part of a large org, you know that to get a front facing website changed requires meetings and approvals and TIME.  Probably not worth the effort just to be nice to homeschoolers.  

ALWAYS ask directly. We had a situation where the school website stated "If transcripts from an accredited home-schooling program are not available, an official copy of a GED certificate must be submitted for consideration for admission. “ We contacted the school about that (in our state, students may only take the GED if they are no longer enrolled in high school. A student who is homeschooled in 11^th or 12^th grade in a homeschool that is complying with the state laws is still enrolled in a high school program and thus not eligible to take the GED.)
We received the response " The wording from the excerpt  "If transcripts from an accredited home-schooling program are not available, an official copy of a GED certificate must be submitted for consideration for admission. " can be confusing to all of our homeschool applicants.  We take homeschool transcripts.  The student does not have to take the GED if complying with state law.  "

Lesson from thus: always always ask if you think the requirements are weird.

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, madteaparty said:

Test optional is not really a thing.

I think it is becoming one, especially since testing was not accessible to many students during the pandemic.

Many graduate programs have done away with the GRE, too. And there the number of applicants isn't really as important a criterion.

[prairiewindmomma]

The OP makes an interesting point. I have all of that information for my oldest, and I've even held onto his boxes of high school work, but we also booted off of the application list anyone that treated homeschoolers with onerous or weird requirements for homeschoolers.

Anyone can put a wide survey list of literature on a transcript.  Anyone can write a number of 5-10 page papers for a course.  Just listing those things on a transcript does not mean that the work completed met tippity top standards. If you don't have outside coursework or tests to bolster the application, the only real method of verifying standards is by reviewing boxes of work. Are they also asking for several work samples in the application?

It just seems ridiculous. 

[madteaparty]

29 minutes ago, EKS said:

That's what I used to think too.  But then the University of California went beyond test optional to not looking at scores at all, and my opinion evolved.

They were court-ordered to do so, and are now test- blind, not test-optional. It’s a totally different thing. 

[EKS]

13 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

They were court-ordered to do so, and are now test- blind, not test-optional. It’s a totally different thing. 

That's my point.

[Roadrunner]

I think if you are white or Asian, applying without having a hook, applying to popular majors, and you are homeschooled to top it off, you should probably consider testing. That’s all I will say about this.

If you are first generation public school student from certain minorities that are census identifiable with stellar grades, maybe you are in luck. 
 

UCs are truly test blind. That’s a different story. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Farrar]

4 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I think if you are white or Asian, applying without having a hook, applying to popular majors, and you are homeschooled to top it off, you should probably consider testing. That’s all I will say about this.

If you are first generation public school student from certain minorities that are census identifiable with stellar grades, maybe you are in luck. 
 

UCs are truly test blind. That’s a different story. 

I had two white, middle class homeschool kids get into some selective test optional with no strong hook and minimal other stuff (AP/DE). But, sure. It’s not real.

Most homeschoolers should consider testing. But it’s not the only option anymore.

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I had two white, middle class homeschool kids get into some selective test optional with no strong hook and minimal other stuff (AP/DE). But, sure. It’s not real.

Most homeschoolers should consider testing. But it’s not the only option anymore.

When I see half the engineering school students accepted test optional, then we will talk. Numbers just don’t pan out so far despite your anecdotal evidence. So I am not sure you need to be directing your sarcasm at me. 🙄

But you are so ideologically opposed to standardized testing that you see only what you want to see. 
 

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

When I see half the engineering school students accepted test optional, then we will talk. Numbers just don’t pan out so far despite your anecdotal evidence. So I am not sure you need to be directing your sarcasm at me. 🙄

But you are so ideologically opposed to standardized testing that you see only what you want to see. 
 

And here’s some numbers to back this up (despite the ridiculous blog name): 

https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/standardized-testing/the-truth-comes-out-about-test-optional-policies/

[Sebastian (a lady)]

10 hours ago, madteaparty said:

And here’s some numbers to back this up (despite the ridiculous blog name): 

https://www.ivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/standardized-testing/the-truth-comes-out-about-test-optional-policies/

This post only cites data from two colleges, one of which is Georgetown, a college that is infamous for it's use of scores in admissions. (Georgetown only stopped requiring Subject Tests when College Board stopped offering it.)

Do strong test scores as a positive signal in college admissions? Yes (for schools that are not test blind).

Do amazing test scores by themselves result in admission to highly rejective colleges? No (and this isn't new).

Do some students get admitted without test scores? Yes

The info I've seen colleges share runs between an even split (ex. 50% submitted scores and 50% of those admitted submitted scores) to a slight advantage to those with scores (ex 50% submitted and 60% of those admitted had scores). But few colleges are sharing data that is full enough to be useful. Did students have test scores from tests taken in 7-10th grade, corresponding to an early attention to testing and college admissions? Did their grades and activities also indicate high level achievements? Were they full pay? 

Reporting from sources like IvyCoach also tends to focus on a handful of highly rejective colleges. It's fine to have that discussion, but wrong to generalize it explaining what all colleges require. 

 

I have other issues with Ivy Coach based on incidents like this. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/02/12/suit-reveals-elite-college-consultants-charged-family-15-million

Edited October 8, 2021 by Sebastian (a lady)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I thought Akil Bello did a good job outlining a decision tree for if/when a student should take the SAT or ACT.

https://akilbello.com/2021/10/02/should-you-take-the-sat-act-or-not/

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

This post only cites data from two colleges, one of which is Georgetown, a college that is infamous for it's use of scores in admissions. (Georgetown only stopped requiring Subject Tests when College Board stopped offering it.)

Do strong test scores as a positive signal in college admissions? Yes (for schools that are not test blind).

Do amazing test scores by themselves result in admission to highly rejective colleges? No (and this isn't new).

Do some students get admitted without test scores? Yes

The info I've seen colleges share runs between an even split (ex. 50% submitted scores and 50% of those admitted submitted scores) to a slight advantage to those with scores (ex 50% submitted and 60% of those admitted had scores). But few colleges are sharing data that is full enough to be useful. Did students have test scores from tests taken in 7-10th grade, corresponding to an early attention to testing and college admissions? Did their grades and activities also indicate high level achievements? Were they full pay? 

Reporting from sources like IvyCoach also tends to focus on a handful of highly rejective colleges. It's fine to have that discussion, but wrong to generalize it explaining what all colleges require. 

 

I have other issues with Ivy Coach based on incidents like this. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/02/12/suit-reveals-elite-college-consultants-charged-family-15-million

I don’t have a dog in this fight and I’m not going to be an ivy coach apologist. They analyze data from a bunch of ED schools; I just picked one of them. 
For anyone reading this in the future, these boards are the only place I see test optional being tauted as a real thing. Judging by the lines at testing places, and other data, much of it discussed in this thread, as a homeschooler, proceed at own risk. The assumption, especially this season where testing is widely available, is that if you’re not submitting a score, you are hiding one. The school may choose to look the other way, and sometimes they do. But let’s just be clear that’s what’s happening. 

Edited October 8, 2021 by madteaparty

[Roadrunner]

Me neither. I am just trying to figure out what the best advice is when my kids are concerned. Frankly until I see at least half of kids admitted without test scores, I am going to insist mine take the test, especially since so much of what we did was home based. 
It’s hard to know why a certain kid gets in and impossible to figure out what role a test played, but again, if there is even a slight chance having no scores could put my kid at a disadvantage, why risk it? I mean it’s bad advice to forget testing at least at this point based on data I am seeing. And unlike last year where parts of the country were absolutely shut out from testing, it isn’t the case this year, so how kids will behave this year (will they test or not) remains to be seen. So I guess a kid with a strong art portfolio or a music audition might be an exception to this. I just don’t want to gamble outside of those scenarios. 

[kokotg]

I'm guessing the distinction between "selective" and "highly selective" is pretty important when it comes to test optional policies. I also think there's a difference between schools that genuinely de-emphasize test scores and those who have been pushed to try going test optional by circumstance. 

[MamaSprout]

As a employee of a currently test optional school, I had my kiddo test, even though she has a bit of test anxiety. Even if she could get admitted without a test, scholarships are not necessarily test-blind. She's applying to "selective" but not "highly selective" schools.

My not selective (85%) test optional employer is test optional because we can't afford to leave potential students on the table. We know some of them are coming in utterly unprepared, but we are taking them as conditional admits and doing the best we can for them.

I don't think the test optional trend is going to continue for schools who are less than selective. We are finding that students who are not submitting scores are doing so because they are low. Public school grades are meaningless. Class rank is actually a better indicator. Just my .02.

Edited October 8, 2021 by MamaSprout

[Roadrunner]

Public school grades are meaningless here for the most part. My son can retake exams in many (but not all) classes. So if he gets lower than a B, he can retest, and the second test is identical. So there are kids in his class who have perfect grades thanks to those retakes. It’s shocking. We are among the top districts in CA. 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 I am just trying to figure out what the best advice is when my kids are concerned.

Even with test optional, I would still have my kids take the tests. Better to have and not need than to need and not have. I cannot see any drawback to doing that. And if we're not talking the SAT subject tests, but just the ACT and SAT - that's really not that time consuming to prep for.

If interested in an extremely selective college, I would also make sure they have some strong college credits while in high school.
And I assume we are only talking about kids interested in extremely selective colleges here - because most colleges accept most students who make it through high school with halfway decent grades. 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

I don't think the test optional trend is going to continue for schools who are less than selective. 

I think test optional is here to stay especially for the non-selective schools, because colleges are competing for a shrinking applicant pool. Demographics means a smaller high school age population. And no college wants to shrink. So the ones who can't cherry pick from the extremely talented pool have to scrape deeper and deeper on the bottom of the barrel to keep student numbers from falling too much.

[MamaSprout]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I think test optional is here to stay especially for the non-selective schools, because colleges are competing for a shrinking applicant pool. Demographics means a smaller high school age population. And no college wants to shrink. So the ones who can't cherry pick from the extremely talented pool have to scrape deeper and deeper on the bottom of the barrel to keep student numbers from falling too much.

Yes, it's definitely an up-from-the-bottom proposition.

[teachermom2834]

I think test optional is also used by schools that are trying to move up in the rankings. They can admit the same student body as they have previously, yet if they are test optional they can boast of higher average test scores and look harder to get into because their test scores appear higher with only the high scorers submitting scores. Someplace like Sewanee would be the type of school I am thinking of. Along the same lines these types of schools often have free applications and very few or no essays on the common app. My oldest applied to several of these types of schools and it seemed pretty transparent that they were trying to move up rankings by looking more selective than they were with higher test scores/lower admission rates because they made it so easy to apply, etc. I would say I feel the same way about colleges that superscore. I don’t think it is to make things better for the student as much as it is to make their average scores look higher. 
 

I really have no idea of whether or not test optional is really a thing. I’m just jumping in with my skeptical opinion on the whole thing and that the motivation is not always student centered. 
 

I personally know a kid who got in to a highly selective school last year when test scores were not required due to covid. He would not have gotten in if he had needed to submit scores. He is getting his butt kicked and absolutely cannot handle the work. What seemed like the opportunity of a lifetime to get into a dream school without a testing requirement has not worked out for the school or the kid. So who knows how it shakes out over time.

[kokotg]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

 

If interested in an extremely selective college, I would also make sure they have some strong college credits while in high school.
And I assume we are only talking about kids interested in extremely selective colleges here - because most colleges accept most students who make it through high school with halfway decent grades. 

I think you need to break it down way more than that, though--IME there's a huge difference between a school that accepts 10% of applicants and a school that accepts 30%, even though both are much more selective than the vast majority of schools. Those 10% schools really get to make their classes look however they want them to look, which I think makes admission in general much, much harder to predict. 

[EKS]

18 hours ago, madteaparty said:

And here’s some numbers to back this up...

I've always suspected that "test optional" allowed schools to report higher SAT/ACT score ranges while at the same time admitting students with whatever hooks are desirable who would have otherwise brought the range down.  

I am strongly against test optional and test blind policies.

[regentrude]

31 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think you need to break it down way more than that, though--IME there's a huge difference between a school that accepts 10% of applicants and a school that accepts 30%, even though both are much more selective than the vast majority of schools. Those 10% schools really get to make their classes look however they want them to look, which I think makes admission in general much, much harder to predict. 

yes. We were talking Cornell, so I assumed we are talking about schools with 10% or less acceptance rates.