Vaccine Passports?

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

I wonder if the same people who profess to be so concerned about flashing a QR code on their phone to go inside a restaurant during a pandemic are equally as concerned showing their drivers license whenever they buy beer or their passport to fly. Because the host at the restaurant only sees squiggly lines whereas the creepy guy at the liquor store has full access not just to your age, but your address as well. And goodness knows what sort of info the TSA agent is privy to.

Conversely, would these same privacy concerned folks be concerned if we *stopped* verifying information for similarly voluntary choices? Do they find it a violation to vet the child care worker or church volunteer to help ensure they aren’t pedophiles? 
 

Honestly, the privacy concern is totally moot when the discussion is literally happening over the internet on social media. Lol. We’ve thrown any illusion out the window a loooong time ago. For that matter, do they honestly think for a moment that the government can’t find them if they wanted to? We are all in plenty of databases (IRS anyone?). But whatever boogeyman they are worried about (and they exist, I’m in agreement there) simply isn’t a concern because of the idea of being asked to show proof of Covid vaccination.
 

 

In my opinion there is a great deal of difference in privacy concerns over what people put on the internet and social media and medical records.  Showing someone my drivers license shows them my name, birthdate, height, and address--none of that is a medical record.  Showing my passport doesn't even show my address.  

[MEmama]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I agree that an electronic passport system could provide for more privacy and flexibility.  However, simply takin the paper cards that were not created in a secure, standardized way and simply digitizing them (which is what is primarily happening in the US when people talk about a vaccine passport) provides no more safety than the paper cards.  We can't go back and create the data and security that should have been created when giving vaccines in the US if we wanted meaningful vaccine passports.  Whether we should or should not have done that is a separate philosophical question, 

So you’ve stated this now many, many times. Do you have any solutions (keeping in mind that your state is unique in their insistence to not do things in a uniform way, but that most sites do and did)? 

[Bootsie]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

Why do you assume verification based on paper cards is what people are talking about here?  Samsung and I think Apple and a few other companies have already created electronic vaccine verification apps that include a check with your medical records to make sure your vaccination happened.  We have the technology.

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/proof-vaccination-tap-smartphone-developers-want-make-easy-rcna1689

What medical records are they going to check?  It isn't a point of having the technology; we have that.  What I do not think we have in the US is data for that technology to use.  

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Bootsie said:

What medical records are they going to check?  It isn't a point of having the technology; we have that.  What I do not think we have in the US is data for that technology to use.  

No, what you have in Texas is not sufficient.  The rest of the country, or at least the vast majority of it, has that.  Even much of the South that hasn't wanted Covid limitations does have more centralized vaccine data.  Sorry about Texas, but I'm not willing to limit what's possible in the entire US based on what is going on down there.  You guys do you.  That's what you want, that's what you get, but don't tell the rest of us that we can't use what we've got for sane solutions because Texas didn't get their act together.

[Bootsie]

Just now, MEmama said:

So you’ve stated this now many, many times. Do you have any solutions (keeping in mind that your state is unique in their insistence to not do things in a uniform way, but that most sites do and did)? 

I do not think Texas is the onsly state that did not do things in a uniform way.  There are reports of other places in the US where children under the allowable age were vaccinated--which could not have happeend if there was a good way of verifying WHO was being vaccinated.  There are reports of people going and getting a Pfizer shot after two Moderna shots, which would not be happening if other states had a giant database where all of this was being properly recorded and checked.  There are reports of other stats vaccinating people who do not have IDs.  There are reports in other states of people producing false vaccine cards.  

As far as a solution, I am not sure what you are asking me about a solution to.  A solution to the problem that we do not have good, reliable data of who was indeed vaccinated but now want it?  No, I don't have a solution for coming up with non-existent data.  I just not that garbage in--garbage out.  

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

What medical records are they going to check?  It isn't a point of having the technology; we have that.  What I do not think we have in the US is data for that technology to use.  

I have a QR code on my phone (ie a “vaccine passport”). It shows my vaccination status, that’s all. The information is from my health care provider, same info as the CDC card I have. It is secure and accurate.

It seems to me your issue primarily stems from decisions made in your state. I’d be upset too, if I had been denied a streamlined process. But again, I don’t think the answer is to throw up our collective hands, it’s to work on actual solutions. Who can you contact in your state to work on fixing this? Who can you vote for next election who will make sound public health decisions?

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

No, what you have in Texas is not sufficient.  The rest of the country, or at least the vast majority of it, has that.  Even much of the South that hasn't wanted Covid limitations does have more centralized vaccine data.  Sorry about Texas, but I'm not willing to limit what's possible in the entire US based on what is going on down there.  You guys do you.  That's what you want, that's what you get, but don't tell the rest of us that we can't use what we've got for sane solutions because Texas didn't get their act together.

I don't think this is simply a situation that Texas didn't get its act together.  Why did the CDC post the form to print off extra cards on the internet?  You have to consider the entire picture.  If Texas only vaccinates those who they can identify and place in a searchable database, we have communities of people who would have not been vaccinated because they have no documentation of who they are.  Would we prefer that?  

[Bootsie]

4 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I have a QR code on my phone (ie a “vaccine passport”). It shows my vaccination status, that’s all. The information is from my health care provider, same info as the CDC card I have. It is secure and accurate.

It seems to me your issue primarily stems from decisions made in your state. I’d be upset too, if I had been denied a streamlined process. But again, I don’t think the answer is to throw up our collective hands, it’s to work on actual solutions. Who can you contact in your state to work on fixing this? Who can you vote for next election who will make sound public health decisions?

What about people who do not have a health care provider?  Who were vaccinated by a firefighter in a drive-through clinic?  We were rushing to get vaccines in arms.  It is easy now to say that this should change, but we have to remember all of the variables that would be impacted.  What sound public health decision needs to be made?  That everyone in Texas be issued an ID so that we know who is who and only vaccinate those with an ID?  

[bolt.]

In my province we currently have both paper and digital versions of the same vaccination record. It's a printable card with a QR code, or you can show it on the screen of your phone.

We have a provincial universal healthcare system and (although some vaccines are administered through pharmacies) everybody's records are kept up to date by the health professionals who administer the vaccinations. Vaccination records for each person have been kept centrally by the health system for decades.

There are two flaws with this system.

One is that without a healthcare card (if you were undocumented, or in some way not officially a resident of the province yet, or for some other reason) it may have been difficult to get the vaccine in the first place. (Or maybe they give the vaccination 'no questions asked' but then there would be no accessible electronic record of having gotten it.)

The other problem is that the printable cards (and the screen-shot-able digital version of the cards) are *ridiculously* easy to forge. Like, 4 minutes with a PDF: change the name by typing over it in the same font and press print. They are also still accepting the original hand-written form from the date of your vaccination as a form of proof, which are also tremendously pointless documents that could be produced at home without any real tech savvy required.

Therefore the only people who can't produce "proof" of vaccination are people who are willingly choosing not to forge something. That, to me, is a pretty small portion of folks: unwilling to be vaccinated, but also unwilling to lie about it... And that begs the question: if it's just 'the honour system' after all -- why not just ask people instead of requiring stupid pseudo-proof?

Right now we only need the "proof" for indoor dining and other recreational activities (movies, gyms, etc.) but that may change.

I wish if they were going to do it, they would do an actually good job of it. Does that make sense?

[TCB]

Are there really so many unvaccinated people who are willing to lie about it and forge documents? Is there no honor among the unvaccinated? I find that a little difficult to believe.

[WildflowerMom]

Where are y’all getting these QR codes? I’m vaxxed and have never even heard of this.  

[HSMWB]

29 minutes ago, TCB said:

Are there really so many unvaccinated people who are willing to lie about it and forge documents? Is there no honor among the unvaccinated? I find that a little difficult to believe.

But on the flip side - if it is an unlawful law that is discriminatory- is there not honor in fighting against it?

* I am not saying this is ‘my’ position, I am curious, and think this is worthy of debate in democratic society.

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, Bootsie said:

To me there is a big difference between a student providing vaccine records to a school or university that then maintains those records as medical records and people flashing a paper card at the entrance of sporting events, cultural events, and other activities.  The vaccination records a student provides to a school are only accessible by a few, specific people and only in limited situations.  Also, thought has been placed into how to keep those records safe.

A vaccine passport is not going to be maintained by the people you flash it at to get into a venue. 

13 hours ago, Bootsie said:

My concern is that this provides a false sense of security that people around them are vaccinated.  

I am not sure that's completely fixable. I don't think it's a big enough problem to make a new problem instead, namely of requiring a super high identification/proof bar to GET a vaccine in the first place. 

30 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I do not think Texas is the onsly state that did not do things in a uniform way.  There are reports of other places in the US where children under the allowable age were vaccinated--which could not have happeend if there was a good way of verifying WHO was being vaccinated.  There are reports of people going and getting a Pfizer shot after two Moderna shots, which would not be happening if other states had a giant database where all of this was being properly recorded and checked.  There are reports of other stats vaccinating people who do not have IDs.  There are reports in other states of people producing false vaccine cards.  

As far as a solution, I am not sure what you are asking me about a solution to.  A solution to the problem that we do not have good, reliable data of who was indeed vaccinated but now want it?  No, I don't have a solution for coming up with non-existent data.  I just not that garbage in--garbage out.  

I am confused about what upsets you at this point. I really don't think we want to deny vaccinations to people who normally do not need or have identification, such as kids. We had to attest to age, etc. in order to get vaccinated here, but kids did not have to show ID. I think I showed ID for one shot but not another, but I did have to provide quite a bit of information during the registration process for it. 

This very fact will lead to small amounts of possible fraud. The alternative is to be super vigilant about the data but that excludes a lot of people and possibly gets very touchy on the side of invading people's privacy. As in, you're going to make the bar higher for getting vaccinated than for getting into an optional event that requires vaccination, which is backwards.

11 minutes ago, TCB said:

Are there really so many unvaccinated people who are willing to lie about it and forge documents? Is there no honor among the unvaccinated? I find that a little difficult to believe.

I don't think it's a huge number--it's probably the same proportion that will get a fake ID to get alcohol before they are 21,

If it's more passive, such as being allowed to not mask if you're vaccinated, but no one is going to ask you directly or show proof, then there are plenty of people that are willing to pretend they are vaxed. As in nearly everyone I know who refuses to vax but who also goes to church, sadly. (I went "vaccinated" to the grocery store today = I ditched my mask, and no one was the wiser.) I doubt many of them would fake a vaccine card though. I have seen them complain on FB that they bought tickets for an event, and a vaccine/test requirement was added later for the venue. They try to resell their tickets if they can't get their money back, and then they say they're going to boycott that venue, potentially long-term. Then they complain bitterly about their lost freedoms even though they've been behaving the entire pandemic like nothing ever changed--vacations, parties, etc. 

[MEmama]

36 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

What about people who do not have a health care provider?  Who were vaccinated by a firefighter in a drive-through clinic?  We were rushing to get vaccines in arms.  It is easy now to say that this should change, but we have to remember all of the variables that would be impacted.  What sound public health decision needs to be made?  That everyone in Texas be issued an ID so that we know who is who and only vaccinate those with an ID?  

Idk, Bootsie. Those are questions way above my pay grade.

I've said it before and I’ll say it again: Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. No system is flawless, but if we throw up our hands at every obstacle then no progress can be made. Look, other states and countries have managed despite the same problems. We show proof of vaccination for our kids marching off to kindergarten. None of this is insurmountable. 
 

What can we do? The usual—inform ourselves (with facts), put pressure on the people in charge whose job it is is to protect us, and vote for politicians with sound policies. Listen to them and believe them when they tell and show us who they are. If you want sound systems, don’t vote for people who want to dismantle government.

In the meantime, get vaccinated, wear a mask and avoid others as much as makes sense for you. Don’t spread lies. Don’t fall for conspiracies. Question what your media and entertainment sources are telling you. Question the powers that be and your community leaders who are demanding your full adoration and blind following. (Yes, I’m using general “you”, not directed toward anyone in particular)
 

There’s simply nothing magical about a state's or country's ability to provide reasonable proof of this particular vaccine. The insistence otherwise sure makes for a loud distraction, though. 

[TCB]

5 minutes ago, HSMWB said:

But on the flip side - if it is an unlawful law that is discriminatory- is there not honor in fighting against it?

* I am not saying this is ‘my’ position, I am curious, and think this is worthy of debate in democratic society.

First of all is it really unlawful or just not a law they like or agree with?

There is also a huge difference, in my book, between fighting against a law and breaking it. Contest and fight away, but part of living within a society and community, is obeying the laws, and choosing legal channels to change them.

[TCB]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I don't think it's a huge number--it's probably the same proportion that will get a fake ID to get alcohol before they are 21,

If it's more passive, such as being allowed to not mask if you're vaccinated, but no one is going to ask you directly or show proof, then there are plenty of people that are willing to pretend they are vaxed. As in nearly everyone I know who refuses to vax but who also goes to church, sadly. (I went "vaccinated" to the grocery store today = I ditched my mask, and no one was the wiser.) I doubt many of them would fake a vaccine card though. I have seen them complain on FB that they bought tickets for an event, and a vaccine/test requirement was added later for the venue. They try to resell their tickets if they can't get their money back, and then they say they're going to boycott that venue, potentially long-term. Then they complain bitterly about their lost freedoms even though they've been behaving the entire pandemic like nothing ever changed--vacations, parties, etc. 

There are a lot of people acting dishonorably and dishonestly now, I know a bunch, but I would be surprised if they are willing to go as far as forgery. I may be wrong though, unfortunately.

[WildflowerMom]

47 minutes ago, TCB said:

Are there really so many unvaccinated people who are willing to lie about it and forge documents? Is there no honor among the unvaccinated? I find that a little difficult to believe.

Yes.   I think the number is potentially huge, tbh.   

[rebcoola]

Yeah I know a lot of anti vaxxers some are extreme enough to quit their jobs but none of them would forge a card.  

[Bootsie]

53 minutes ago, TCB said:

Are there really so many unvaccinated people who are willing to lie about it and forge documents? Is there no honor among the unvaccinated? I find that a little difficult to believe.

Why would it be any less than the rate at which people provide other false documents?  Honorable people on this board have talked about trying to get their underaged children vaccinated or getting a booster when they don't qualify.  I have lost count of the number of times a college student has left their wallet in my classroom and I go to check to return it and find "another" ID in the wallet.  Or, when students are asked to show a picture ID which matches the name they have on an exam all of a sudden accidentally picked up their roommates ID.  I have a student whose mother provided him with his first fake ID--when he didn't quite meet the age cutoff for first grade and she wanted him to go ahead and start. II also have had many students produce medical excuses for which the authenticity is questionable; they have found that emailing electronic versions allow for alteration much more easily that paper records.

Maybe the unvaccinated are more honorable than the general population, but I see a lot of false documents out there.

[WildflowerMom]

4 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Why would it be any less than the rate at which people provide other false documents?  Honorable people on this board have talked about trying to get their underaged children vaccinated or getting a booster when they don't qualify.  I have lost count of the number of times a college student has left their wallet in my classroom and I go to check to return it and find "another" ID in the wallet.  Or, when students are asked to show a picture ID which matches the name they have on an exam all of a sudden accidentally picked up their roommates ID.  I have a student whose mother provided him with his first fake ID--when he didn't quite meet the age cutoff for first grade and she wanted him to go ahead and start. II also have had many students produce medical excuses for which the authenticity is questionable; they have found that emailing electronic versions allow for alteration much more easily that paper records.

Maybe the unvaccinated are more honorable than the general population, but I see a lot of false documents out there.

Seriously.   I mean the question could be easily turned around here.  

[wathe]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

In my province we currently have both paper and digital versions of the same vaccination record. It's a printable card with a QR code, or you can show it on the screen of your phone.

We have a provincial universal healthcare system and (although some vaccines are administered through pharmacies) everybody's records are kept up to date by the health professionals who administer the vaccinations. Vaccination records for each person have been kept centrally by the health system for decades.

There are two flaws with this system.

One is that without a healthcare card (if you were undocumented, or in some way not officially a resident of the province yet, or for some other reason) it may have been difficult to get the vaccine in the first place. (Or maybe they give the vaccination 'no questions asked' but then there would be no accessible electronic record of having gotten it.)

The other problem is that the printable cards (and the screen-shot-able digital version of the cards) are *ridiculously* easy to forge. Like, 4 minutes with a PDF: change the name by typing over it in the same font and press print. They are also still accepting the original hand-written form from the date of your vaccination as a form of proof, which are also tremendously pointless documents that could be produced at home without any real tech savvy required.

Therefore the only people who can't produce "proof" of vaccination are people who are willingly choosing not to forge something. That, to me, is a pretty small portion of folks: unwilling to be vaccinated, but also unwilling to lie about it... And that begs the question: if it's just 'the honour system' after all -- why not just ask people instead of requiring stupid pseudo-proof?

Right now we only need the "proof" for indoor dining and other recreational activities (movies, gyms, etc.) but that may change.

I wish if they were going to do it, they would do an actually good job of it. Does that make sense?

I'm in Ontario.  All covid vaccinations are recorded in the central covax database, no matter where they were admistered (mass vax site, pharmacy, MD office - all use the same central documentation tool).  Even for those without healthcards or who are undocumented.  They are provided with a covid ID number in lieu of a healthcard number.   So, we have really good records here.

We don't have QR codes yet - those are coming later in the month.  The current poof of vax is your provincial vaccine receipt, either paper or PDF.  The PDFs are very easy to alter.  But you would have to acquire someone else's to alter.  So at the very least, forgery of these would involve collusion.  I would like it if each vaccine receipt did have a QR code.  That would be harder to alter.

Edited to fix so many typos

Edited October 4, 2021 by wathe

[Dmmetler]

As far as the "vaccinated by a firefighter at a drive through clinic", I was vaccinated by a paramedic at a pop up clinic in a church parking lot (for child care workers/after school care teachers/non-public school teachers) and my second was by a PA student at a drive through clinic at what is normally an emissions test site, manned by students and faculty from UT Medical college. My teen got the first at the same emissions test site, and the second at Kroger. 

 

Both of my teen's were on the record when the pediatrician pulled it up at the office when we went in to get a meningitis shot required by the college to live on campus, and both of my two earlier ones were on the record when the Walmart Pharmacy Tech pulled it up so the pharmacist could give me the booster. When I logged in to set up an account on the CLEAR app for the local sports arena, the app was able to access my records, since they partner with Walmart and CVS. 

 

Do you know for sure that TX DOESN'T have records? Because it definitely seemed like TN was doing the "drive through and get shots in arms as fast as possible", but obviously those registration forms got added somewhere.  

[Bootsie]

40 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

As far as the "vaccinated by a firefighter at a drive through clinic", I was vaccinated by a paramedic at a pop up clinic in a church parking lot (for child care workers/after school care teachers/non-public school teachers) and my second was by a PA student at a drive through clinic at what is normally an emissions test site, manned by students and faculty from UT Medical college. My teen got the first at the same emissions test site, and the second at Kroger. 

 

Both of my teen's were on the record when the pediatrician pulled it up at the office when we went in to get a meningitis shot required by the college to live on campus, and both of my two earlier ones were on the record when the Walmart Pharmacy Tech pulled it up so the pharmacist could give me the booster. When I logged in to set up an account on the CLEAR app for the local sports arena, the app was able to access my records, since they partner with Walmart and CVS. 

 

Do you know for sure that TX DOESN'T have records? Because it definitely seemed like TN was doing the "drive through and get shots in arms as fast as possible", but obviously those registration forms got added somewhere.  

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

[kbutton]

11 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

In Texas?

My older son went to a mass vaccination site and didn't have to prove who he was. His vaccine card was being filled out while they were filling out something online for him. I assume it's recorded in a database, though I haven't tried to find that out. My other son and I were boxed vaxed at CVS, and mine shows up in my medical record at the doctor's office. Our pediatrician doesn't use EMRs, so I don't know if my kids' show up, but I bet they are recorded. 

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

Why would it be any less than the rate at which people provide other false documents?  Honorable people on this board have talked about trying to get their underaged children vaccinated or getting a booster when they don't qualify.  I have lost count of the number of times a college student has left their wallet in my classroom and I go to check to return it and find "another" ID in the wallet.  Or, when students are asked to show a picture ID which matches the name they have on an exam all of a sudden accidentally picked up their roommates ID.  I have a student whose mother provided him with his first fake ID--when he didn't quite meet the age cutoff for first grade and she wanted him to go ahead and start. II also have had many students produce medical excuses for which the authenticity is questionable; they have found that emailing electronic versions allow for alteration much more easily that paper records.

Maybe the unvaccinated are more honorable than the general population, but I see a lot of false documents out there.

I think that it goes both ways, and it's sad. OTOH, I do think that when we give people a reason to lie (dickering over policy for a booster that is effective, not rolling out boosters for the other shots) while vaccines are going to waste, I do think there is a big discrepancy in the overall effect of those decisions.

As for college students being a good sample, you have a student population of mixed eligibility to do something desirable socially (drinking), you have some degree of privilege (can afford higher education), and you have some degree of opportunity/ease to falsify all of this stuff (a relatively stable supply of people who know how to flout rules showing others how to do the same thing). It's also a group of people who are trying their wings while their frontal lobe isn't completely ripe yet.

It's possible for cheating behaviors to group, and I don't know why. This was the case with cheating in my high school. In some grades, it was rampant. In other grades, often with siblings of the cheaters, it was sometimes hardly present. I am not sure your sample is representative.

[Dmmetler]

18 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

You mean to tell me no one was registering online, or filling out a form and signing paperwork there? I had to do both for all three of my shots, even the drive through ones, and I did show ID to show I was on the schedule-and still has to fill out paperwork -the pharmacy ones took ID and insurance info as well.  I seriously doubt anyone was vaccinating anyone without a name being given, and with a name, you can link to a record and show that someone with that name was given a vaccine on X day/time/place, even if they don't check ID there. 

 

Unless there were people willing to get multiple vaccines under different names and deal with side effects, there will not be false cards that match to the registration records of the vaccines-they will be duplicates of vaccines given, under different names, and when checked against the record, will not verify. 

[WildflowerMom]

45 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

I had to give my name to get my appt and then give my ID and my insurance card when I got to the vax site.   I got it from someone in the national guard in a parking lot. 
 

eta: a nurse gave me the shot, the NG was there signing us in, escorting everyone, etc. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by WildflowerMom

[WildflowerMom]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

I had to give my name to get my appt and then give my ID and my insurance card when I got to the vax site.   I got it from someone in the national guard in a parking lot. 

Quoting myself…. But not giving any form of ID or exchanging any paperwork or anything at all with the person giving me my shot probably would’ve raised alarm bells for me. 

[Matryoshka]

50 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

Since as you can tell by everyone else's responses, it appears everywhere else has figured this out, I do think it's Texas not getting its act together.  

My state has has had mobile immunization units going to low-income neighborhoods and has prioritized vaccinating the homeless population.  Somehow it's possible.

[YaelAldrich]

I have the solution y'all.

The powers that be just need to put weensy little microchips in the vaccine. If you light up, you're partially vaccinated. Blinks twice, you are fully vaccinated. Blinks three times, you got a third shot or a booster.

Voila! 😉

🤣

[rebcoola]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

When people are being given vaccines with no form of identification provided there is no registration to add somewhere. 

My family had ours done at drive up national guard site.  No ID shown not even given the option to give insurance.  The information we provided (name, birthrate, partial ssn) was enough to match it to our state Vax records.  So I have good records and the many undocumented people here were able to get vaxxed.  It's just not that difficult.

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, rebcoola said:

My family had ours done at drive up national guard site.  No ID shown not even given the option to give insurance.  The information we provided (name, birthrate, partial ssn) was enough to match it to our state Vax records.  So I have good records and the many undocumented people here were able to get vaxxed.  It's just not that difficult.

But, do those undocumented people have vaccination records?  And, how does anyone know that it was you that actually got a vaccine.  Or what if you never had a Vax in that state to have a record?  Or, what if you had a Vax in a state that isn't your residence?

And just because this information could have been collected, or was in your particular case, does not mean that it was for other people who were vaccinated.  

[rebcoola]

Everyone got a card and if able an email record.  I believe everyone's was uploaded to the state  database but wouldn't necessarily be able to be verified or automatically synced to your doctor.  It's not a perfect system but very few are.  I'm still a lot safer someplace that requires vaccines even if 10% have forged records.

[Bootsie]

25 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Since as you can tell by everyone else's responses, it appears everywhere else has figured this out, I do think it's Texas not getting its act together.  

My state has has had mobile immunization units going to low-income neighborhoods and has prioritized vaccinating the homeless population.  Somehow it's possible.

But, do you know that any of that homeless population has a way of accessing the record of their vaccination?  Do you know if anyone who is undocumented in your state received a vaccine?  There are a few people here who can report that they have records that tie to a state database that is accessible to verify vaccination.  You are seeing a small number of people who are self-reporting their particular situation; we haven't even had 49 other people respond--much less people from many different walks of life in 49 other states--so I don't see how we can conclude that everywhere else has figured it out.  My conjecture is that we are assuming other places have it all figured out much more so than is really the case.  

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But, do those undocumented people have vaccination records?  And, how does anyone know that it was you that actually got a vaccine.  Or what if you never had a Vax in that state to have a record?  Or, what if you had a Vax in a state that isn't your residence?

And just because this information could have been collected, or was in your particular case, does not mean that it was for other people who were vaccinated.  

Honest question: why are you willing to blow up a perfectly normal mitigation tactic —in this case, a simple proof of vaccine for optional activities while in the midst of a devastating international pandemic— because a very small minority of people might find it difficult to acquire the necessary documentation? 
 

Please note I’m not making light of the fact that people in your state might find it more difficult than most anywhere else. I’d be mad as hell in your position. But it’s clear that most of the states have figured it out for most of the people, and that’s about as good as it can get with half the country fighting against themselves. 

[Matryoshka]

16 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But, do those undocumented people have vaccination records?  And, how does anyone know that it was you that actually got a vaccine.  Or what if you never had a Vax in that state to have a record?  Or, what if you had a Vax in a state that isn't your residence?

And just because this information could have been collected, or was in your particular case, does not mean that it was for other people who were vaccinated.  

So, you're worried that the undocumented and homeless population won't have access to the smartphone app to allow them to get into nightclubs, restaurants, and super-expensive sporting events?   All of those things are very expenisve for the populations you're so worried about apparently being the driving force behind a huge 'forge my vaccine card' population so they can have access to these places they likely often already don't have access to for other reasons.   And I'm sure that Texas' worries about the equal civil rights of their homeless and undocumented population is totally why they can't get this done.   

But seriously.  They could have a separate database with each person identified by a number or something (actually, most undocumented and homeless people still have SocSec numbers), and use that.  There are likely many other possible solutions, some of which it sounds like have already been thought of and are in use here and around the world. This constant throwing up your hands and saying 'Texas can't do it so no one else can figure it out!  It's impossible!  It's hopeless!' is... tiring.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Matryoshka

[Bootsie]

57 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

You mean to tell me no one was registering online, or filling out a form and signing paperwork there? I had to do both for all three of my shots, even the drive through ones, and I did show ID to show I was on the schedule-and still has to fill out paperwork -the pharmacy ones took ID and insurance info as well.  I seriously doubt anyone was vaccinating anyone without a name being given, and with a name, you can link to a record and show that someone with that name was given a vaccine on X day/time/place, even if they don't check ID there. 

 

Unless there were people willing to get multiple vaccines under different names and deal with side effects, there will not be false cards that match to the registration records of the vaccines-they will be duplicates of vaccines given, under different names, and when checked against the record, will not verify. 

Some someone who reported that their name is Jane Smith got a vaccine on X day, time, and place--is recorded somewhere--that is fairly useless information, in my opinion.  

If the pharmacy records are so good, why did I get a notice from CVS that it is time for my booster since I received my last dose on March 30--I received no vaccine from CVS; I received J&J, and I am not over 65?  

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

Some someone who reported that their name is Jane Smith got a vaccine on X day, time, and place--is recorded somewhere--that is fairly useless information, in my opinion.  

If the pharmacy records are so good, why did I get a notice from CVS that it is time for my booster since I received my last dose on March 30--I received no vaccine from CVS; I received J&J, and I am not over 65?  

Proving that your state records system is broken, fragmented, and fraught with error does not prove that the ones elsewhere are or that a workable system can be put in place.

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So, you're worried that the undocumented and homeless population won't have access to the smartphone app to allow them to get into nightclubs, restaurants, and super-expensive sporting events?   All of those things are very expenisve for the populations you're so worried about apparently being the driving force behind a huge 'forge my vaccine card' population so they can have access to these places.   And I'm sure that Texas' worries about the equal civil rights of their homeless and undocumented population is totally why they can't get this done.   

But seriously.  They could have a separate database with each person identified by a number or something (actually, most undocumented and homeless people still have SocSec numbers), and use that.  There are likely many other possible solutions, some of which it sounds like have already been thought of and are in use here and around the world. This constant throwing up your hands and saying 'Texas can't do it so no one else can figure it out!  It's impossible!  It's hopeless!' is... tiring.

No, that is not what I am concerned about.  I am concerned about systems that would keep some of my students, their families, my children's friends, my neighbors from coming forward to get a vaccine during a pandemic because they are afraid of revealing their identity and status to a government authority.  

I have not claimed that Texas can't do it, nor have I claimed that no one else can figure it out.  The fact remains we can't create accurate records of past events.  

[mom2scouts]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

You mean to tell me no one was registering online, or filling out a form and signing paperwork there? I had to do both for all three of my shots, even the drive through ones, and I did show ID to show I was on the schedule-and still has to fill out paperwork -the pharmacy ones took ID and insurance info as well.  I seriously doubt anyone was vaccinating anyone without a name being given, and with a name, you can link to a record and show that someone with that name was given a vaccine on X day/time/place, even if they don't check ID there. 

 

Unless there were people willing to get multiple vaccines under different names and deal with side effects, there will not be false cards that match to the registration records of the vaccines-they will be duplicates of vaccines given, under different names, and when checked against the record, will not verify. 

I got both my shots at a mass vaccination site. I did not have to show ID or show an insurance card. I haven't been to a doctor in years and don't even have a primary care doctor. I did fill out some paperwork, so I guess it's recorded somewhere, but I'm not sure anyone could really prove it was me.

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Proving that your state records system is broken, fragmented, and fraught with error does not prove that the ones elsewhere are or that a workable system can be put in place.

No, but it points to the fact that in the US there are errors.  CVS is not a state records system; presumably CVS is not looking at a state database and sending out notifications; it is looking at its own records.  So, people who say that their pharmacy did reporting and in their one instance it was correct, does not mean that we can conclude pharmacy records are accurate.  

[wathe]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But, do you know that any of that homeless population has a way of accessing the record of their vaccination?  Do you know if anyone who is undocumented in your state received a vaccine?  There are a few people here who can report that they have records that tie to a state database that is accessible to verify vaccination.  You are seeing a small number of people who are self-reporting their particular situation; we haven't even had 49 other people respond--much less people from many different walks of life in 49 other states--so I don't see how we can conclude that everywhere else has figured it out.  My conjecture is that we are assuming other places have it all figured out much more so than is really the case.  

Here they do.  

People with provincial healthcards (most homeless people have healthcards - universal healthcare) can self-access their record online (at any public library) or by phone.

People without healthcards who have lost their paper receipt can self-access their record online or by phone with the Covid ID # they were given in lieu of a healthcard number at the time they got their shot.  At the time of their vaccination, they would have also been asked for their name, date of birth, address if they have one, and other demographic info (email address, phone number). Even people with no documentation, address, email or phone number and have lost their paper receipt and have lost their Covid ID# have at least a name, birthdate, and date and place of vaccination recorded in the provincial database.  That's enough to generate a record, which can be accessed by phone.  The province has been very mindful of vaccine equity and has really put effort into making sure that everyone has access to vaccines and proof of vaccination.

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, wathe said:

Here they do.  

People with provincial healthcards (most homeless people have healthcards - universal healthcare) can self-access their record online (at any public library) or by phone.

People without healthcards who have lost their paper receipt can self-access their record online or by phone with the Covid ID # they were given in lieu of a healthcard number at the time they got their shot.  At the time of their vaccination, they would have also been asked for their name, date of birth, address if they have one, and other demographic info (email address, phone number). Even people with no documentation, address, email or phone number and have lost their paper receipt and have lost their Covid ID# have at least a name, birthdate, and date and place of vaccination recorded in the provincial database.  That's enough to generate a record, which can be accessed by phone.  The province has been very mindful of vaccine equity and has really put effort into making sure that everyone has access to vaccines and proof of vaccination.

Yes, that is a very different system than what we have in the US--I think different than any state in the US

[WildflowerMom]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Yes, that is a very different system than what we have in the US--I think different than any state in the US

I also think it's safer to be undocumented in Canada than the US.   I think the undocumented argument is a valid one and I feel for them.   I'd probably be scared to death to get vaxed, tbh.   

[Pam in CT]

Re balancing (quite rational) fear of coming into government radar screen v getting vaccinated...

1.

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

I also think it's safer to be undocumented in Canada than the US. ..

Agree with this.

 

2.

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

....I think the undocumented argument is a valid one and I feel for them...

Agree with this as well.  I teach ESL, and spent a lot of time in Feb-April sussing out exactly what information needed to be provided in order to get vaccinated through various providers; and a fair amount of time screen-sharing the various portals and demonstrating the precise steps/ information required to sign up.

And in the early months, there were very significant gaps in vaccine uptake rates by community, and there is little doubt in my mind that this was among the factors.

And then the state started partnering with churches and immigrant advocacy groups to provide access to *information*; and also with the NG to provide access to the *vaccine itself*, running mobile sites that traveled to both public sites like sports events and zoos, and also targeted neighborhoods, and also food banks and homeless shelters, with the specific aim of reaching low-uptake population segments.

And

 

3.

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

...I'd probably be scared to death to get vaxed, tbh.   

The uptake gap narrowed considerably.

 

Because undocumented people are also overrepresented among those who GET THE DISEASE, and underrepresented among people who HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE IF THEY DO.

 

Most undocumented adults have a taxpayer ID -- it's required by their employers for most businesses; in any event required to have a bank account, to get an atm card, to cash a check or make/receive online payments, in most states to get a driver's license.  Many have gone through years of public school. Most have accessed some form of health services at some point. There are already records to link to. 

And sure, in some cases those records may not be to a real name.  But still a consistent name, which is the issue.  And sure, there may be a very small segment of newly arrived or off-the-information-grid folks who are entirely record free. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better. Better is better.

 

[WildflowerMom]

9 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Re balancing (quite rational) fear of coming into government radar screen v getting vaccinated...

1.

Agree with this.

 

2.

Agree with this as well.  I teach ESL, and spent a lot of time in Feb-April sussing out exactly what information needed to be provided in order to get vaccinated through various providers; and a fair amount of time screen-sharing the various portals and demonstrating the precise steps/ information required to sign up.

And in the early months, there were very significant gaps in vaccine uptake rates by community, and there is little doubt in my mind that this was among the factors.

And then the state started partnering with churches and immigrant advocacy groups to provide access to *information*; and also with the NG to provide access to the *vaccine itself*, running mobile sites that traveled to both public sites like sports events and zoos, and also targeted neighborhoods, and also food banks and homeless shelters, with the specific aim of reaching low-uptake population segments.

And

 

3.

The uptake gap narrowed considerably.

 

Because undocumented people are also overrepresented among those who GET THE DISEASE, and underrepresented among people who HAVE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE IF THEY DO.

 

Most undocumented adults have a taxpayer ID -- it's required by their employers for most businesses; in any event required to have a bank account, to get an atm card, to cash a check or make/receive online payments, in most states to get a driver's license.  Many have gone through years of public school. Most have accessed some form of health services at some point. There are already records to link to. 

And sure, in some cases those records may not be to a real name.  But still a consistent name, which is the issue.  And sure, there may be a very small segment of newly arrived or off-the-information-grid folks who are entirely record free. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better. Better is better.

 

Oh no, I'm not.  But I would still be **very** reluctant.   I lived for years near migrant camps, they have every right to be worried.    Hopefully, the people I lived close to have been vaxxed, but looking at that area's vax rate, I doubt it.   ☹️

[Bootsie]

16 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

Most undocumented adults have a taxpayer ID -- it's required by their employers for most businesses; in any event required to have a bank account, to get an atm card, to cash a check or make/receive online payments, in most states to get a driver's license.  Many have gone through years of public school. Most have accessed some form of health services at some point. There are already records to link to. 

And sure, in some cases those records may not be to a real name.  But still a consistent name, which is the issue.  And sure, there may be a very small segment of newly arrived or off-the-information-grid folks who are entirely record free. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the better. Better is better.

 

I don't know what percentage of undocumented adults have these items, but I have known a fair number who have not had an employer, or a bank account, or an ATM card, or a driver's license.  And any records have often not been done with a consistent AND unique name--there may be several people reported under the same name.  There are a number of people who do not want Texas to require something like a drivers license or ID to vote because the argument is that there is a significant enough number of people who do not have those to be important.  It is illogical to then conclude that all of these people who couldn't vote because they can't prove who they are can certainly prove who they are to be vaccinated.  

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

Honest question: why are you willing to blow up a perfectly normal mitigation tactic —in this case, a simple proof of vaccine for optional activities while in the midst of a devastating international pandemic— because a very small minority of people might find it difficult to acquire the necessary documentation? 
 

Please note I’m not making light of the fact that people in your state might find it more difficult than most anywhere else. I’d be mad as hell in your position. But it’s clear that most of the states have figured it out for most of the people, and that’s about as good as it can get with half the country fighting against themselves. 

This. I seriously doubt that homeless folks are trying to attend a Detroit Symphony Orchestra concert, a Lugnuts game, or a Broadway Show all of which are optional activities that no one has a legal entitlement to much less a human right. These groups can require it, and that is also their right, the logistics of implementation falling on them. Don't like it, don't go. We are not talking about proving vaccination status in order to go to the hospital.

[HSMWB]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

This. I seriously doubt that homeless folks are trying to attend a Detroit Symphony Orchestra concert, a Lugnuts game, or a Broadway Show all of which are optional activities that no one has a legal entitlement to much less a human right. These groups can require it, and that is also their right, the logistics of implementation falling on them. Don't like it, don't go. We are not talking about proving vaccination status in order to go to the hospital.

But we are talking about showing it to go to the gym or a restaurant or shopping mall.  Which I think is a different order then the symphony or a professional sports game.  And is it different if a government says it is required or if the establishment says it is required??

[Pam in CT]

re records/documentation that "undocumented" people may/may not have

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I don't know what percentage of undocumented adults have these items, but I have known a fair number who have not had an employer, or a bank account, or an ATM card, or a driver's license.  And any records have often not been done with a consistent AND unique name--there may be several people reported under the same name.  There are a number of people who do not want Texas to require something like a drivers license or ID to vote because the argument is that there is a significant enough number of people who do not have those to be important.  It is illogical to then conclude that all of these people who couldn't vote because they can't prove who they are can certainly prove who they are to be vaccinated.  

I don't know either, although it is hard to exist for very long without employment of some sort; and legal businesses require something or they can't count wages as expenses.

But you're absolutely right; there are SOME number of people who eke out an existence on a cash only basis, and have never accessed the education or health system, and/or don't use a consistent name.  Some of whom, thank God, have managed to get vaccinated. And so you are right: any vaccine verification system we manage to put in place will be imperfect.

You're also right that there will be SOME number of people who have opted NOT to get vaccinated, and will engage in purposeful fraud if that's what it takes to go to a bar or restaurant; and since we didn't use a perfectly uniform recordkeeping system throughout the rollout, such purposeful fraud also means that any vaccine verification system we manage to put in place will be imperfect.

Like just about any other public policy, or just about any change at the community or family or individual level for that matter... change needn't be PERFECT in order to be better.

Better is better.