What to do about bickering siblings?

[fairfarmhand]

My daughter is 15.5, her brother is 13.

They bicker CONSTANTLY.  

I'm at a loss. They are the two of my kids who are closest in age. Older dd is (IMHO) overly sensitive to any kind of noise her brother makes, so even her brother's breathing annoys her. (It's not annoying to anyone else in the house, so I don't think that he breathes excessively loud or anything like that) She doesn't complain about the breathing of anyone else on the planet, just his. She can be bossy and opinionated and I have to regularly remind her that she is not the parent.

Younger son does pester. We're working on that. He likes to debate ridiculous stuff. His phrase that frustrates is "Well, technically....blah blah blah" in response to other people's opinions is soooo annoying. He is overly sensitive to bossiness and will continue to do something just to spite someone even if someone's request to stop it is reasonable.

Neither one of them will ever back down from an argument. They will debate the most inane topics and it is not in fun. The bickering is about to drive me nuts. 

they've been punished, separated, forced to work together forced to stay apart. I don't know what to do. Often, the punishments are as much of a punishment for me as it is for them. I'd love to avoid that kind of thing.

Any thoughts? 

( I had 2 brothers, one 18 months older, one 2 years younger. I don't remember bickering like this.)

 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by fairfarmhand

[prairiewindmomma]

I have a pretty close to zero tolerance for bickering.  We have a mix of quirky and NT kids in the family, so we deal with oversensitivities and a lack of social awareness on the regular.  My kids have some of those behaviors at times, but learning to govern one's heart and mouth is a priority in our house.  We spend a lot of time working on emotional regulation---taking a deep breath, giving grace, walking away, being kind, etc.

What's the overall tone in the household?  In general, I think that's where I'd put my energy and focus.  Get things to a positive, loving place, and then guide those kids to learn to govern themselves a bit better.  I'd also make sure they are getting enough physical exercise.  It will help them re-regulate. In ye good old days, my mom sent me out to muck stalls and haul stuff.  I saw it as a punishment, but in retrospect, after putting my kids through a ton of PT and OT, I also see how it helps re-regulate kids who can't quite hold it together on a given day on their own.

FWIW, does older dd have a pair of noise canceling headphones? They help, fwiw.  

[Tanaqui]

I remember reading somewhere - probably Nurtureshock, but idk - that siblings who bicker more  in childhood tend to get along better as adults, probably because they interact a lot in childhood rather than just each staying in their own space.

That's not helpful, I just thought it might be comforting to read. Even if it's not true, it's nice to imagine it might be true!

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

I remember reading somewhere - probably Nurtureshock, but idk - that siblings who bicker more  in childhood tend to get along better as adults, probably because they interact a lot in childhood rather than just each staying in their own space.

That's not helpful, I just thought it might be comforting to read. Even if it's not true, it's nice to imagine it might be true!

Thank you! That made me smile.

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I have a pretty close to zero tolerance for bickering.  We have a mix of quirky and NT kids in the family, so we deal with oversensitivities and a lack of social awareness on the regular.  My kids have some of those behaviors at times, but learning to govern one's heart and mouth is a priority in our house.  We spend a lot of time working on emotional regulation---taking a deep breath, giving grace, walking away, being kind, etc.

What's the overall tone in the household?  In general, I think that's where I'd put my energy and focus.  Get things to a positive, loving place, and then guide those kids to learn to govern themselves a bit better.  I'd also make sure they are getting enough physical exercise.  It will help them re-regulate. In ye good old days, my mom sent me out to muck stalls and haul stuff.  I saw it as a punishment, but in retrospect, after putting my kids through a ton of PT and OT, I also see how it helps re-regulate kids who can't quite hold it together on a given day on their own.

FWIW, does older dd have a pair of noise canceling headphones? They help, fwiw.  

Yes, she does have headphones that she uses when possible.

As far as the environment in the house, we do have a lot of fun and we do try to keep it on a positive note. I do try to nip complaining/negativity in the bud both my teaching the kids to emphasize the positive and addressing nuisance behaviors before they start annoying people. But...I can't always be right there when stuff starts. 

The problem is that things go downhill SO quickly. It's like "Can't I leave the room for 10 minutes to take a phone call without everything going down the toilet?" 

I do need to work on the physical exertion part. Winter makes that so miserable. Middle TN is so gross in winter. Mud mud and more mud with drizzly wet rain and biting winds...just YUCK!

My ds is headed out to do some brush dragging that my dh cut over the weekend. I'm sure that will help him.

I do see a marked difference in both kids' tolerance for irritation when they have been spending too much time on screens, which I probably need to stay on top of better. 

I also am trying to emphasize that nobody can allow someone else's bad behavior to suck them down the vortex of bad attitude. As in, don't attend every fight you're invited too. It takes 2 to bicker. Learn to walk away.

[Katy]

Separation/quiet time is the only thing that seems to work here.  Sometimes twice a day, mid morning and mid afternoon.  It's rare for older ones to nap but just the time apart makes the interactions more patient and loving. YMMV in terms of school scheduling.  I find the quiet time needs to be a break from work, each other, and screens to help.

[happi duck]

I sometimes wonder if this is just the chemistry between certain people.  Two of my sibs bickered and fought no matter what my parents did.  The rest of us raised in the same house with the same people didn't bicker even with the two that bickered with each other.  My kids don't bicker or fight, never have and I know it isn't because we did anything to cause that dynamic.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

It might be time to stop trying to manage personalities and switch to addressing character issues.  Have you directly talked with them about this through the character issues lens? Every personality has it's own personality traits that tend toward its own set of character issues.  Sometimes people are petty.  Yes, some personalities are more prone to it, but it's still a character issue.  So is over sensitivity.  Overly sensitive people tend to think they're the center of everyone's motivations, think their personal comfort and preferences are more important that most other things, and they tend to be pleasers aghast that someone would disapprove of them. Pests focus in themselves and their impulses rather than general harmony for their own entertainment or due to their lack of observational skills.  Sometimes people are unwilling to address the main issue and over react to minor issues (like the breathing thing), so they need someone to tell them to address things at the root rather than at the tips of the branches. 

And since you have tried separating them, punishing them, making them work together, etc., it might be time to tell them the truth matter-of-factly so they're prepared for the realities of life:
 
"Technically, no one cares what you think about (insert stupid topic here)." may just be the reality check the boy needs to hear.
"Strong women don't keep arguing when someone disagrees with them, they just go on with their day." might be a new approach the girl needs.
"If you're that upset about something so minor, you're going to end up curled up in ball on the floor when real problem comes up." may be something they both need to hear.
"15 and 13 is far too old for bickering.  If you were in early to mid elementary school I could understand it, but this lack of developmental maturity makes me wonder what other age appropriate things you're not ready for." might be the truth they both need to hear.

When they want to do something in the near future that would only be for kids their age, I might bring up, "Well, based on your recent behavior (insert a couple of examples here) I'm hesitant to let you go do (insert activity here) because I haven't seen much maturity out of you lately.  I'll have to think about this for a while." And then I might grant it reluctantly (and say so) but warn that future immature behavior will result in a hard no.  That is, unless it's been consistently bad, in which case I'd say no and explain it's due the immature behavior, and until I see a pattern of better behavior, it will be no again.  If things improve, the future answer will be yes.  

[fairfarmhand]

5 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

It might be time to stop trying to manage personalities and switch to addressing character issues.  Have you directly talked with them about this through the character issues lens? Every personality has it's own personality traits that tend toward its own set of character issues.  Sometimes people are petty.  Yes, some personalities are more prone to it, but it's still a character issue.  So is over sensitivity.  Overly sensitive people tend to think they're the center of everyone's motivations, think their personal comfort and preferences are more important that most other things, and they tend to be pleasers aghast that someone would disapprove of them. Pests focus in themselves and their impulses rather than general harmony for their own entertainment or due to their lack of observational skills.  Sometimes people are unwilling to address the main issue and over react to minor issues (like the breathing thing), so they need someone to tell them to address things at the root rather than at the tips of the branches. 

And since you have tried separating them, punishing them, making them work together, etc., it might be time to tell them the truth matter-of-factly so they're prepared for the realities of life:
 
"Technically, no one cares what you think about (insert stupid topic here)." may just be the reality check the boy needs to hear.
"Strong women don't keep arguing when someone disagrees with them, they just go on with their day." might be a new approach the girl needs.
"If you're that upset about something so minor, you're going to end up curled up in ball on the floor when real problem comes up." may be something they both need to hear.
"15 and 13 is far too old for bickering.  If you were in early to mid elementary school I could understand it, but this lack of developmental maturity makes me wonder what other age appropriate things you're not ready for." might be the truth they both need to hear.

When they want to do something in the near future that would only be for kids their age, I might bring up, "Well, based on your recent behavior (insert a couple of examples here) I'm hesitant to let you go do (insert activity here) because I haven't seen much maturity out of you lately.  I'll have to think about this for a while." And then I might grant it reluctantly (and say so) but warn that future immature behavior will result in a hard no.  That is, unless it's been consistently bad, in which case I'd say no and explain it's due the immature behavior, and until I see a pattern of better behavior, it will be no again.  If things improve, the future answer will be yes.  

 

The bolded is HILARIOUS and I will try that. It sounds perfect.

Thanks for this. It is very helpful to reframing it beyond behavior and go deeper.

Edited January 4, 2021 by fairfarmhand

[SKL]

Maybe enforce a period of silence after they start pressing on your last nerve?  Or save some unpopular, quiet chores (in different parts of the house) for times when they cross the line?

I have a similar problem here, except that one of the parties is 14 and the other is old enough to be her grandmother.  Although the elder could stand to re-think her approach, it is not my business to train her.  So I try very hard to convince the younger that she is capable of better.

One thing I really believe (I may be alone in this):  the bicker-er is a good person on the inside.  Whatever reason she feels the need to be combative at times, that doesn't change the inner character.  And I think that if she herself could believe that, she'd feel less need to "win" those unnecessary arguments that keep cropping up.  Does this make any sense?

[I'm not just letting her get away with shenanigans though.  She wants a dog, and it's been understood for years that a dog isn't happening until she can speak decently to everyone in the house.  Despite that, this nonsense occurs more often than it should.]

Edited January 4, 2021 by SKL

[SKL]

As for chemistry - I have to say I've been blessed with my two daughters.  They are much more likely to gang up together and be silly than to fight and argue with each other (though that does happen occasionally).

When my girls were younger, every time they fought over something, I'd put that thing in time-out (or if it was a privilege, I'd cancel it).  I didn't care who was right or wrong.  I wanted them to figure out how to work it out without intervention.  For the most part, this was successful.  However, as another poster mentioned, I'm not sure I can take any credit for it.  They happen to have pretty good chemistry with each other.

Edited January 4, 2021 by SKL

[kbutton]

48 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

"Technically, no one cares what you think about (insert stupid topic here)." may just be the reality check the boy needs to hear.
"Strong women don't keep arguing when someone disagrees with them, they just go on with their day." might be a new approach the girl needs.
"If you're that upset about something so minor, you're going to end up curled up in ball on the floor when real problem comes up." may be something they both need to hear.
"15 and 13 is far too old for bickering.  If you were in early to mid elementary school I could understand it, but this lack of developmental maturity makes me wonder what other age appropriate things you're not ready for." might be the truth they both need to hear.

When they want to do something in the near future that would only be for kids their age, I might bring up, "Well, based on your recent behavior (insert a couple of examples here) I'm hesitant to let you go do (insert activity here) because I haven't seen much maturity out of you lately.  I'll have to think about this for a while." And then I might grant it reluctantly (and say so) but warn that future immature behavior will result in a hard no.  That is, unless it's been consistently bad, in which case I'd say no and explain it's due the immature behavior, and until I see a pattern of better behavior, it will be no again.  If things improve, the future answer will be yes.  

I don't always read things the same way as others, so ignore if this doesn't apply.

I agree with some of this, but some I think is not constructive (see underlined). Just because something might be true doesn't mean the kids can act on it meaningfully. Especially the "makes me wonder" part. That sounds manipulative. It's mysterious and likely to backfire with a sensitive kid. I get pretty straightforward with my kids, so I don't think it's that the statements are strong but that some of these statements are not easily actionable/fixable (no clear outcome you are wanting or skill you want to see develop) or are statements that undermine a truly straightforward response in another context (cause the child to believe you were insincere about other situations). My kids have some bad habits, and I point out potential consequences that aren't particularly palatable, but I try to be specific. 

Some of it I think is responding reactively like the kids (see bolded). I would make this a consequence from the get go, as in, "If you keep bickering (feel free to be more specific), then you aren't going to be able to attend such and such an event." I wouldn't hold it over their heads as a maybe, maybe not. I think that's manipulative. I wouldn't use it as a surprise no. A surprise no should be for something truly awful that no one saw coming, or it should be directly related to the behavior, or else it feels arbitrary.

I think that parents can be so bothered by bickering that they don't see some clear patterns that can be one-sided. To make me look bad, my brother would engineer situations that had no outcome I could choose that wouldn't annoy my parents, and he readily told me so. Please make sure you aren't overlooking something just because you are so annoyed--both being aware of a possible situation like this and being aware if you really have a very narrow range of what you consider an acceptable solution. It could be that one or both kids can't solve something the way they want to because they feel their solution would be unacceptable to you in some way (and it could be their perception as much as reality).

You seem to have a really high need for harmony, and I could be reading that wrong, but even now, there are times my typically really warm relationship with my parents and my brother's family is clouded by an oversized need for harmony by my mother. It's not enough to disagree and work through it successfully; my mother's way is that everyone has to prize harmony so much they find they no longer disagree or they are willing to suck up something for years that could easily be put to rest the first time or two it happens. This is not fair. Then after you try her way, and it's really not fun, the entire responsibility lies on you if you decide to rock the boat, and people are taken aback because, "If it bothered you, you should've said something before now. It's a little late now (except it's ongoing)." (My mom is the only person I'll tolerate this dynamic from because I know why she's this way, and she's an otherwise healthy person.) I have lost friendships over this kind of thing too. It's a crappy feeling, and it insinuates that someone who is stuck in an unhealthy pattern with someone else doesn't care about harmony, which might not be the case at all.

[Susan in TX]

3 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Neither one of them will ever back down from an argument. They will debate the most inane topics and it is not in fun. The bickering is about to drive me nuts. 

I have a couple of kids who were like this. One of the things I told them when I just wanted them to drop an argument was that, "People have the right to be wrong." It allowed them a way to save face and end the argument because they could both believe the other person was wrong lol.

I have also just told bickering siblings to "take it outside" and literally made them go outside to bicker. That would usually end it because neither of them wanted to go outside.

Susan in TX

Edited January 4, 2021 by Susan in TX
added content

[Melissa in Australia]

What I did with my oldest  kids was extra logic lessons. 

Then they spent lots of time pulling apart each other's opinions by telling them what fallacy they were using

[gardenmom5]

refuse to be an audience - which isn't the same as ignoring it.   

do not tolerate it, and especially don't tolerate a more able sibling pushing around a less able to defend themselves sibling.

come down hard on whomever starts it (what that looks like varies) - not whose continuing it, who started it.   

a dear sweet older lady at church (great-grandma who'd have water gunfights) had two of her grandsons staying with her for a visit.  the younger one was always in trouble, always fighting with the older brother.  she quickly observed it was the older brother usually pushing younger brothers buttons.  (while younger brother would come out smelling like a rose.)  She took older brother aside and told him in no uncertain terms, if anything happened - he would be the one to suffer the consequences.

I saw a similar thing with a couple of my kids - younger sibling would push older siblings buttons, and older sibling was getting in trouble.  I nipped it in the bud by redirecting the younger sibling because they were the one starting the whole thing.

if being around this sibling is stressing your daughter so much that just hearing him breathe is more than she can withstand - it sounds like she needs a break from him.  I'd keep them in different rooms for awhile.

[fairfarmhand]

8 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I don't always read things the same way as others, so ignore if this doesn't apply.

I agree with some of this, but some I think is not constructive (see underlined). Just because something might be true doesn't mean the kids can act on it meaningfully. Especially the "makes me wonder" part. That sounds manipulative. It's mysterious and likely to backfire with a sensitive kid. I get pretty straightforward with my kids, so I don't think it's that the statements are strong but that some of these statements are not easily actionable/fixable (no clear outcome you are wanting or skill you want to see develop) or are statements that undermine a truly straightforward response in another context (cause the child to believe you were insincere about other situations). My kids have some bad habits, and I point out potential consequences that aren't particularly palatable, but I try to be specific. 

Some of it I think is responding reactively like the kids (see bolded). I would make this a consequence from the get go, as in, "If you keep bickering (feel free to be more specific), then you aren't going to be able to attend such and such an event." I wouldn't hold it over their heads as a maybe, maybe not. I think that's manipulative. I wouldn't use it as a surprise no. A surprise no should be for something truly awful that no one saw coming, or it should be directly related to the behavior, or else it feels arbitrary.

I think that parents can be so bothered by bickering that they don't see some clear patterns that can be one-sided. To make me look bad, my brother would engineer situations that had no outcome I could choose that wouldn't annoy my parents, and he readily told me so. Please make sure you aren't overlooking something just because you are so annoyed--both being aware of a possible situation like this and being aware if you really have a very narrow range of what you consider an acceptable solution. It could be that one or both kids can't solve something the way they want to because they feel their solution would be unacceptable to you in some way (and it could be their perception as much as reality).

You seem to have a really high need for harmony, and I could be reading that wrong, but even now, there are times my typically really warm relationship with my parents and my brother's family is clouded by an oversized need for harmony by my mother. It's not enough to disagree and work through it successfully; my mother's way is that everyone has to prize harmony so much they find they no longer disagree or they are willing to suck up something for years that could easily be put to rest the first time or two it happens. This is not fair. Then after you try her way, and it's really not fun, the entire responsibility lies on you if you decide to rock the boat, and people are taken aback because, "If it bothered you, you should've said something before now. It's a little late now (except it's ongoing)." (My mom is the only person I'll tolerate this dynamic from because I know why she's this way, and she's an otherwise healthy person.) I have lost friendships over this kind of thing too. It's a crappy feeling, and it insinuates that someone who is stuck in an unhealthy pattern with someone else doesn't care about harmony, which might not be the case at all.

Nope. I actually have a very high tolerance for bickering. I don't mind people respectfully holding opposite opinions. There is some natural give and take and conflict in all sibling relationships, and I am most likely to let it play out until people can come to a reasonable resolution.

The problem with these two particular kids is that they seldom get there. The bickering will continue until a parent shuts it down. 

So for my oldest dd and my middle dd, they can discuss different viewpoints. There is plenty of room for differences. 

Middle dd and youngest son can't get to the point where there's room for difference. There is never a point where it's "We'll do it your way today and my way tomorrow." or "Well, I guess we just have to agree to disagree." Neither is satisfied to end the conversation until the other one acknowledges that he/she is wrong. So it goes on and on and on. They both operate like the obnoxious uncle at a family reunion who always has a political comment to make about the opposite side of where he is.  And they will continue with snarky comments throughout the day or whenever the topic comes up. Neither kid "sucks it up." We are all quite clear on what is happening and how they feel.

If they could get to the bottom of the disagreement without drama and then leave it alone, I'd be satisfied. But the constant comments, spats that go on all day underneath our every day life, and then the occasional eruptions put my teeth on edge.  They're both SO INVESTED in being right.

It's not every day that's like this. But we'll have 2-3 days of  bickering/irritation every week and it is draining. 

It really is BOTH kids. They both contribute to this dynamic. I do a ton of listening when they are interacting when I am not aware. We have a somewhat open floor plan so I can keep tabs on the dynamic going on. I am SO aware of the ability of siblings to provoke others into a fight and come out looking innocent. That;s not what is happening here. 

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

Now that I'm thinking about it, Im reminded of a comment that my father in law used to say.

He'd say, "You can be completely right and still be completely wrong all at the same time."

He meant that being right doesn't give you permission to act like a rear end. Even when you're right, behaving badly/rudely/ annoyingly is always wrong. Sounds like I need to discuss this with my kids.

[Farrar]

For my kids, when they get into it like this, I have to focus on bits that I need to stop and not the underlying issues, which are essentially not things I can actually fix. And I find I have to care about it less. I know you're saying you have a high tolerance for it... and I think of myself as having a pretty high tolerance for it as well, but when it's getting to me, it's getting to me. It doesn't matter what my tolerance is and whether it's okay or not... it's making me unhappy or making them unhappy which is causing bad things to happen in the house in other ways. When I care about it, I try to fix it. But I've come to believe I can't fix it. We have a good, loving environment and a happy house overall and two kids who are basically great. We've made ourselves available to discuss the dynamics and have worked on various elements of it with the kids. But in the end, it's up to them. I'm out. And I need to remember that.

Like, if they're annoying or upsetting the dynamics in the house or keeping each other from work, they just have to leave. If they're too loud, they have to leave. If they're keeping a decision from being made, I get to make it because they screwed it up by bickering. And then instead of being like, we have to keep this from happening again, it's like, okay, now I'm done. Done. No going round and round about it to fix the bickering. It's a thing that happens. And when it gets in the way of things, I make them go away. End of story.

YMMV, of course.

[gardenmom5]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

I remember reading somewhere - probably Nurtureshock, but idk - that siblings who bicker more  in childhood tend to get along better as adults, probably because they interact a lot in childhood rather than just each staying in their own space.

That's not helpful, I just thought it might be comforting to read. Even if it's not true, it's nice to imagine it might be true!

I'd have to see a good, unbiased, double blind study to believe that.  I'm sure it also really depends how the parents handle it (which would be another thing that would be very difficult to control in a study.)

my sister and I barely tolerate our brother - and things have only gotten worse with time.

[katilac]

Well, my mom would also like to know what to do about bickering siblings, she's still wondering when my brother and I are going to stop 😂

They are 13 & 15, and it sounds like full consent bickering, not one of them picking on the other - at this point, I'd probably make a rule that they can bicker on their own time and in their own place. If they're getting loud and annoying while others are around "Take it outside." If everyone is already outside doing something fun, make them take it inside, lol. No bickering at the dinner table or during activities that include other people. Naturally, they are going to debate the definition of bickering. Tell them that the judge's decision is final, and you are the judge. If you see a discussion headed in that direction, tell them they each have 30 seconds to give a final rebuttal, and then the debate is closed. 

Bossing: yep, remind her that she is not the parent, and give him a set response to use. "You're not supposed to boss me. If you think I shouldn't be doing X, you need to get mom to tell me." And make it very clear to her what type of things to come to you with - even if he has his shoes on the table and that's breaking a rule, she doesn't get to boss or tell you about that. 

Pestering: depends on the pestering. It's annoying when somebody debates ridiculous things, but the other person doesn't have to listen. Basically, the pestering I'd crack down on would be anything that involves another person's property or person, or that the other person can't walk away from. So no touching their stuff, no touching them, no following them around to make noise, and no going into a room where the other person already is to make noise or debate. 

 

[katilac]

46 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

And they will continue with snarky comments throughout the day or whenever the topic comes up. 

It really is BOTH kids. They both contribute to this dynamic. I do a ton of listening when they are interacting when I am not aware. We have a somewhat open floor plan so I can keep tabs on the dynamic going on. I am SO aware of the ability of siblings to provoke others into a fight and come out looking innocent. That;s not what is happening here. 

Agreed. You know that I am also very aware of certain harmful sibling dynamics, but this really seems like a case of two siblings close in age that like to push each other's buttons. 

About bringing things up again and again: I'd probably be like, "The next person who brings up whether Pluto should be a planet IN ANY WAY has to wash the car. And I am the person who decides whether you brought it up again, so speak carefully." 

So if somebody does bring it up, at least you wind up with a clean car. 

[katilac]

I would also make a rule that they are not allowed to comment on each other's clothing, appearance, or breathing 😂

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I'd have to see a good, unbiased, double blind study to believe that.  I'm sure it also really depends how the parents handle it (which would be another thing that would be very difficult to control in a study.)

my sister and I barely tolerate our brother - and things have only gotten worse with time.

I'm pretty sure there's no way to do a double blind study of this particular topic. Double blind studies are for experiments. No one can really experiment by forcing some children to bicker and others not to and seeing how it comes out. Maybe I'm not thinking creatively enough, but I really don't know how you'd answer this question in an ethical way with a double blind experiment. You can only track sibling relationships in something like a longitudinal study and see how they come out. This has become a buzzword in "I don't believe it" circles. It's all very well to demand better data (and sometimes studies are poorly done, poorly supported, different studies come to very different conclusions, etc.) but it's not the answer to all types of questions about data.

I also had a bicker heavy relationship with my brother and now have a very rocky relationship as an adult. He could probably be termed a narcissist. But I can easily imagine that mild but constant bickering could be good for other siblings, maybe even the majority. I definitely don't assume my experience is universal in this regard.

 

[Terabith]

So, I agree that the bickering is a problem, but I want to say that misophonia (being irrationally bothered by noises, including someone's breathing) is a real, genuine thing.  My oldest has full fledged PTSD from noxious sounds that literally forced her to drop out of public high school because the noises there were so stressful for them.  

And it sucks, because there's no real treatment, but noise canceling headphones and space might be required.  It would suck, but there are families where people cannot eat meals together or do many other things because they are triggered by other family members' sounds.  

[gardenmom5]

43 minutes ago, Farrar said:

 

I also had a bicker heavy relationship with my brother and now have a very rocky relationship as an adult. He could probably be termed a narcissist. But I can easily imagine that mild but constant bickering could be good for other siblings, maybe even the majority. I definitely don't assume my experience is universal in this regard.

 

There's a difference between bickering and razzing.  They must be distinguished, and some people have a hard time telling the difference.   razzing - yeah, it can look (or sound . . . . .) like bickering, but it really isn't. I had kids who did razzing, and at times I wished they'd have knocked it off - but it was razzing, not bickering (even when the then 10year old couldn't tell the difference, and I did have to tell the others to lay off because he couldn't see the difference.)  razzing - if something happens to a sibling, they'll be there to support said sibling.

bickering - there's no sibling camaraderie/friendship in that.  but it does lay down a foundation of distrust, that may or may not be overcome when they're adults.  (and when they no longer live under the same roof, it's harder to overcome.)

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

There's a difference between bickering and razzing.  They must be distinguished, and some people have a hard time telling the difference.   razzing - yeah, it can look (or sound . . . . .) like bickering, but it really isn't. I had kids who did razzing, and at times I wished they'd have knocked it off - but it was razzing, not bickering (even when the then 10year old couldn't tell the difference, and I did have to tell the others to lay off because he couldn't see the difference.)  razzing - if something happens to a sibling, they'll be there to support said sibling.

bickering - there's no sibling camaraderie/friendship in that.  but it does lay down a foundation of distrust, that may or may not be overcome when they're adults.  (and when they no longer live under the same roof, it's harder to overcome.)

I think sometimes you don't know the difference until years later, honestly. I know some siblings who really got to each other as kids and teens who grew up to feel that it was all more razzing, by your definition and others who grew to feel like they'd been harassed. But in the moment would have described it the same and it would have looked the same. It's too fine a line for me to say when I see my kids going at it. Sometimes they walk away and proclaim that no one's feelings were hurt. Other times, I get a massive angry earful from one about how toxically positive his brother is or a tearful earful from the other about how unsupportive and nasty his brother is. They barely know the difference in the moment which way it's going to go.

[J-rap]

We didn't allow unkind bickering.  We did encourage talking things out though, so if they got into nagging bickering we'd have them sit together on the couch and talk things through in calm voices.  They'd have to take turns listening to the other person.  If they needed an adult there to help, my dh or I would sit between them.  Once they talked it out in calm voices, they could get up and leave.

It helped that our kids were naturally kind of rule-oriented though!

We did have a far better understanding of some of our kids' super sensitive natures after they were grown up.  That included being very sensory-sensitive.  So, yeah -- loud breathing actually would have been very grating on them.  I'm not sure how we would have handled it differently if we had a better understanding of that when they were young and still home.  I'm sure we would have talked about it though, I suppose to help them understand that a person breathing loudly shouldn't be taken as a personal offense.  And then helped give them some coping skills ~ such as calmly going to their room to sit alone in quiet for awhile, or going for a walk outside to calm down.

[Carrie12345]

All 5 of my kids bicker with one another. Certain pairings are WAY more than others.  I definitely find it annoying, which is an issue to solve, but I don’t find it abnormal or concerning.  Just really, really annoying.  My sisters and I did bicker a lot. Our adult relationships with one another vary, including ebbing and flowing over the years.

My oldest is now much more... non-bickery when he visits. One might think that’s due to age and emotional growth, but I hear him bicker with his other siblings when we’re on the phone so... not really.

I chalk up the degree of bickering to space (or the lack of) in our house. There’s nowhere for people to escape. My worst pairs are roommates, so there’s a ton to bicker about.

Most of the time, my youngest is the one who applies my advice the best and most frequently (which isn’t always), perhaps because he’s heard it the longest.  It started with kids chasing each other around the couch, yelling that so-and-so was chasing them.  My answer has always been “They can’t chase you if you’re not running.”  Taking away the instigator’s power generally ends most situations.  

“Why do you care?” is another automatic response here if one is verbally prodding the other.  If someone thinks your shirt is silly or the show you’re watching is lame or whatever other nonsensical thing, just keep doing you and be grateful that you have better things to do than to pick on a happy person.

When it doesn’t help, I look for chores that separate them for a bit. Making at least one of them an outside chore means at least *I* won’t be annoyed for a while!

[SKL]

14 hours ago, Terabith said:

So, I agree that the bickering is a problem, but I want to say that misophonia (being irrationally bothered by noises, including someone's breathing) is a real, genuine thing.  My oldest has full fledged PTSD from noxious sounds that literally forced her to drop out of public high school because the noises there were so stressful for them.  

And it sucks, because there's no real treatment, but noise canceling headphones and space might be required.  It would suck, but there are families where people cannot eat meals together or do many other things because they are triggered by other family members' sounds.  

My kid has misophonia too, which is quite a challenge.  I didn't think that was the case here, because OP said this only applies to one person's breathing.  🙂  That said, my kid has the least tolerance for the eating sounds of the adult she tends to fight with.  If I had a nickel for every time I informed dd that other people have a right to eat in their own house ....

[SKL]

My sibs and I fought as kids.  It didn't carry far into adulthood ... or at least, not with me.  I guess there are some sibs who still fuss over silly things at times, but mostly, I think we all get along.

I think ultimately, even as kids, deep down, we agreed more than we disagreed.

My parents didn't have a ton of tolerance for fighting, that I recall.  They both worked outside the home and wanted things to be reasonably peaceful when they were home.  So they would yell louder than us to shut us up.  🙂  We were and are a loud family, but it's mostly good-natured loudness at this point.

[Terabith]

42 minutes ago, SKL said:

My kid has misophonia too, which is quite a challenge.  I didn't think that was the case here, because OP said this only applies to one person's breathing.  🙂  That said, my kid has the least tolerance for the eating sounds of the adult she tends to fight with.  If I had a nickel for every time I informed dd that other people have a right to eat in their own house ....

Yeah, my kid's issues luckily don't involve family members eating or breathing.  However, dogs barking is extremely noxious, and we have a neighborhood dog that is mostly abandoned outside, barks ALL THE TIME, and sounds absolutely hysterical.  I can tune it out, but given the reaction it has on my kid, I've seriously questioned if putting the dog out of the misery it's clearly in would be a sin.  (Yes, of course I concluded it would.)

Slamming lockers, however, is their major trigger.  They cringe when we drive down the street past the high school now.  It's awful.  

[SKL]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, my kid's issues luckily don't involve family members eating or breathing.  However, dogs barking is extremely noxious, and we have a neighborhood dog that is mostly abandoned outside, barks ALL THE TIME, and sounds absolutely hysterical.  I can tune it out, but given the reaction it has on my kid, I've seriously questioned if putting the dog out of the misery it's clearly in would be a sin.  (Yes, of course I concluded it would.)

Slamming lockers, however, is their major trigger.  They cringe when we drive down the street past the high school now.  It's awful.  

Ugh ... I've been thinking about starting a thread about misophonia.  I wonder sometimes if that is the reason my kid hates eating, especially "as a family / household."  Fork on the plate = "my ears have been raped again," and the other day she declared, "you're chewing with purpose again." 

Thankfully, I think the other household members believe this is not something she can completely control, but it gets tense at times for sure.

Sorry to go off topic here though!