MIL vent...ugh!

[teachermom2834]

Background on MIL- She is 71 yo and has been divorced for 35 years and never remarried. We live about a 12 hour drive away and see her every 2-3 years. We haven't gone to her in 15 years mainly because that was a very costly trip for a family of six and we can't stay at her house, she never helped with meals, etc. It was just never an expense we could absorb. She has driven to us every few years but it is a hard drive and she drives beater cars. She has frequently had to have them repaired mid trip.  Once one died midway and dh had to take time off work to go rescue her, pay for a rental car to get her back, etc. She refuses to fly, even though we have offered to buy her a ticket every time she has talked about visiting. Anyways, we are not close. She is a very difficult personality and when she has come to stay it has been so stressful and we have put a limit on her stays or she would stay for weeks on end or more. There is nothing so toxic as to cut her out of our lives. We feel sorry for her but do not enjoy her or feel warm toward her. She does call us at least 4-5 times a week and we take turns spending up to an hour on the phone with her. So, there is some relationship there mainly because it's just the right thing to do. But she is not kind, she is hyper critical, super high maintenance to have around, always complaining, etc.

I have posted before worried about what will happen when she dies or is sick and can't care for herself. She is an extreme hoarder which is one of the reasons we have not wanted to take the kids to visit her home. It's a bad situation. She was without running water in her kitchen for years and just using the bathroom sink while spending all kinds of money on random crap to hoard. Tons of debt. All kinds of hard stuff. 

Well, we are getting ready to remodel our basement. Dh posted on FB asking for recommendations for contractors. MIL called when she saw it demanding to be included in the decision making because she is planning to move in with us and live in the basement when she can no longer be independent. What?!?! This is her plan? She did tell dh "I realize I haven't informed you that is what I am going to do." 

Crazy. First of all, we could never live with her and I certainly can't care for her physically. We have encouraged her to move to an apartment here and we would help with shopping, errands, doctors visits, but even that would be stressful. That's about the max I could do for her. And even if we could live with her our house makes no sense. If she can't live independently, then the stairs to get to her imagined basement home would not work well. Additionally, we have no bathroom on the main level of our home. Not even a half bath. Literally every time she would need to use a bathroom she would have to climb at least 8 steep stairs. 

Dh dismissed it and told her it wouldn't work out but I am sure it is not the last we've heard of this "plan."

 

[Spryte]

Been there.

For now: remodel the way you want.  If you don’t want conflict, don’t post about it on FB or mention it to her.

When the time comes, you can look into senior housing nearby, and If you’re willing, you can support from home.  If her finances permit, you can check assisted living facilities, if not - senior independent living (low income, if necessary), and you do support.  Better yet, get her on Medicaid (if she can’t live independently) and they will send aides, etc that Medicare won’t cover.  

I care for three elders, all different needs.  One in long term nursing, one in assisted living, one was in a senior apartment with lots of support from me, now she’s in our home.  It’s a lot of work.
 

ETA: if you really don’t want her to move in, don’t include a bathroom in the basement remodel!  

Edited June 17, 2020 by Spryte

[Laura Corin]

DH definitely needs to keep saying, 'That wouldn't work out.  How about that apartment we were talking about?'  He needs to be very clear and avoid discussion.  She has probably had this idea in her head for years and it might take a while to shift it.  Don't go into reasons why it won't work out, because then you have an argument.  Keep it very plain.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm sorry.  That's really frustrating.

You're right, you haven't heard the last of this. Odds are it will become more frequent and it will get louder.   Good for your husband for addressing it immediately. Just stay on the same page and speak with one voice.

If it were me, I'd make sure I knew which social services to contact to help with that because she's not financially stable, then I'd start familiarizing myself with my options about where to place her.  Nursing homes are a tricky subject right now due to COVID, but she clearly can't live with you.  I'd also get myself up to speed on modest apartments in my area. It's easier to think about this before it needs to be done otherwise you're faced with figuring out a place to keep her temporarily in the mean time while she's upset about having to transition to the last chapter of her life.

If it does come to her living in an apartment nearby, make sure you're prepared to set and enforce boundaries.  Don't go running every time she calls with non-emergency issues.  Have her keep a list of what she needs help with and set a certain amount of time each week on a certain day or whatever to work through the list.  If she needs doctors appointments set a certain day(s) of the week for scheduling appointments.  Be prepared to schedule well in advance to get that/those day(s). 

Have an emergency plan with a life alert type thing in addition to 911 so you know she can get help immediately in a real emergency just in case. If you don't you'll likely end up answering every single call just in case it's a real emergency. My husband's grandmother had a life alert (or another brand, I don't remember) button thing she wore on a lanyard every day.  If she couldn't get up (which happened on occasion due to her bad knee) she pushed the button.  That company had a list of people to call to help her.  In her case that was my in-laws first, us second, sister-in-law third. If no one on the list answers and agrees to go to her house, then the company calls 911. We went twice.

[Slache]

Same story here. "We cannot commit to that. You need to make other plans." I understand that you are are looking for contractors, but unless absolutely necessary I would not post anything else about the remodel until it's finished. No bathroom in the remodel!

You are a saint for talking to her multiple times a week. Make sure the entire family learns your mantra 

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Slache said:

 

You are a saint for talking to her multiple times a week. Make sure the entire family learns your mantra 

Oh no problem getting the whole family on board with the mantra. My 12 yo dd, who is the sweetest of the sweet and is the most patient and kind with her immediately said, "And she can't live with me either!" She just isn't someone anyone can live with, really. It's just not even an option. This brings up memories of my dh when he was 19 and his mother made him pay rent when he would return for summer from college. So not feeling super obligated as though she has been supportive of us in similar ways.

We won't mention the remodel again. So gobsmacked this has been her plan for years. We've been talking to her about having a plan. We didn't realize she had one and just wasn't telling us.

[JustEm]

Your dh and you need to be sure that anytime she bring it up you remind her that is not a possibility.  She has likely had this plan in her head for a whole and it will take a lot of reminding that she needs to come up with a new plan.  You do not need to help come up with that plan because it will likely cause an argument.  You have suggested an apartment and she shot that down. That leaves it up to her to find something that works for her and whoever else is involved.

[gardenmom5]

can you get a list of assisted living facilities in your town, (especially if she'll only qualify for ones that take medicaid for low income seniors - my grandmother was in one).  Then you can give her a reality check of what will actually be feasible.

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

We didn't realize she had one and just wasn't telling us.

This is very upsetting. I'm afraid she's telling you now because she's planning on it soon.

If you do plan to have her near you you need to start deciding on boundaries. She's going to say things out of the blue like "You will be able to come by through the week and help me" and you need to be prepared with "We do not have that kind of time. We plan to attempt to pencil you in once a month, but we'll see."

Every 2 years or so my MIL forgets that we've told her no and we have the discussion again.

Good luck!

[Slache]

Life will be exponentially easier if you move her to facility where she is, not where you are.

[teachermom2834]

I will be honest. Her moving in would almost certainly result in divorce for dh and me. So it is not in the realm of possibility for either of us. Even having her local would be a strain and there will be very firm boundaries. 
 

Her personal situation is such a mess. Hoarding, house in disrepair, tons of cc debt, personal loans, etc. and her health isn’t great. I don’t even know where to start getting her situation resolved and she isn’t willing to accept any advice or suggestions- only cash and lodging.

Dh’s brother is actually a director of a nursing home so I feel like he should be more help with navigating options than we are and he is at least in her state. But these things are complicated when you aren’t particularly close emotionally. Such a mess but dh and I are not going to let it destroy or bankrupt us. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by teachermom2834

[Slache]

If DH and brother are close they can develope a plan together. Or 3 to show her there are options.

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

“Oh really? So sweet of you to want to be near your grandkids! But gosh, I feel sure we have never ever discussed that, dh and I had no idea that’s what your plan was! How about you get your house all spiffed up and ready to put on the market, then we can talk about where to go from there.”

Then quit sharing your remodel news with her and fix your home the way you’d like it. If your heart and the Lord tell you to make a space suitable for elder care, use common sense and design it accordingly, her specific input as to paint color and such is not required for you to make a larger bathroom shower stall, that kind of thing. If she asks, flip the conversation to focus back on her, getting her house ready to sell. If she is a true hoarder, she will never reach this goal so that’s where the conversation can stop.

I will add, though, that you and dh should come up with a specific plan to offer her, in the event she turns out to also be deeply in debt (common with hoarders) and there are no assets for her to contribute. I personally couldn’t leave the worst relative in the world out on the street. Look for housing options that qualify for Medicaid, help her gather documents for applications, that sort of thing. Stand ready to be the Good Samaritan, but that doesn’t have to mean she comes live with you. It means you do your best to seek her wellbeing.  You want to preserve relationships and the mental wellbeing of everyone involved.  

 

I agree with the end of your post but not the beginning. There just is no room with her to leave some hope as you seem to. She has no reason to believe we would ever agree to this and yet she has fully formed a plan. Even though we told her "no" we will have to repeat it again and again. So leaving some wiggle room out there for her is a no go. 

But you are right about getting her house together to sell being a goal she can never reach. We have offered in the past (she had breast cancer years ago) to come and help her get cleaned up and work on transitioning to another situation and she wouldn't hear of it. Because she is a true hoarder and she would not allow us to get rid of anything. So we really can't do anything besides tell her the options. She will never, ever get her house together. So it is just a frustrating situation. Especially knowing we will in some way have to deal with it at some point. 

She absolutely will have no assets so will have to find some kind of situation that accepts Medicaid. But living with us is just not an option. For a variety of reasons. She can't hoard in my house, for example, and she is a true hoarder. (Like digs stuff out of our garbage to take home with her when she visits because she can't bear that we are throwing it away). Dh and I are not going to survive thirty years of parenting and getting young adults launched, periods of unemployment, multiple moves, finally get a sliver of stability, and a house that is in decent condition, and then bring her in. It would break me.

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

My guess is that her plan is simply to abandon her house and come live with you. Sadly that house is an asset that will have to be sold prior to her being eligible for Medicaid. So, it’s either stonewall or somebody is going to have to face the beast of this issue.

Welcome to elder care in modern America. 😢

I don't think she plans to abandon the house. As a hoarder she thinks every piece of junk mail in that house has value. She would never forfeit a penny she thinks she could make in profit from it. I think, in her mind, it is not that bad and she can get it cleaned up and sell it. Or she will talk about bringing someone in to hold an estate sale and how much money she would make because all her broken microwaves and two liter bottles she meant to recycle but never did and the old cable boxes and dh's backpack from fourth grade etc etc are worth so much money. 

So, basically, we are tasked with trying to figure out real life solutions with someone who is living in a fantasy land of how things are going to go. 

I think she will die in that house. I can't see anyway of her getting out of it. Ugh. Every so often I try to figure out how to fix this problem and come to the conclusion I can't. But I can't let it destroy my life either. It feels awful. 

[Selkie]

9 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I don't think she plans to abandon the house. As a hoarder she thinks every piece of junk mail in that house has value. She would never forfeit a penny she thinks she could make in profit from it. I think, in her mind, it is not that bad and she can get it cleaned up and sell it. Or she will talk about bringing someone in to hold an estate sale and how much money she would make because all her broken microwaves and two liter bottles she meant to recycle but never did and the old cable boxes and dh's backpack from fourth grade etc etc are worth so much money. 

So, basically, we are tasked with trying to figure out real life solutions with someone who is living in a fantasy land of how things are going to go. 

I think she will die in that house. I can't see anyway of her getting out of it. Ugh. Every so often I try to figure out how to fix this problem and come to the conclusion I can't. But I can't let it destroy my life either. It feels awful. 

That does sound so awful! I'm glad you and your dh are in agreement.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

I will be honest. Her moving in would almost certainly result in divorce for dh and me. Such a mess but dh and I are not going to let it destroy or bankrupt us. 

stick to your guns.  boundaries - now.  decide how you will communicate boundaries - now.  then you don't have to think about it on the fly.

 

46 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

“  I personally couldn’t leave the worst relative in the world out on the street. Look for housing options that qualify for Medicaid, help her gather documents for applications, that sort of thing. Stand ready to be the Good Samaritan, but that doesn’t have to mean she comes live with you. It means you do your best to seek her wellbeing.  You want to preserve relationships and the mental wellbeing of everyone involved.  

 

there are options that don't leave her on the street, without moving her in with them.  - housing options that qualify for medicaid.  

33 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

But you are right about getting her house together to sell being a goal she can never reach. --- she is a true hoarder and she would not allow us to get rid of anything. 

She absolutely will have no assets so will have to find some kind of situation that accepts Medicaid.  

there are flippers who will buy houses in that condition.  the return is measly - but you don't have to deal with the mess.  they bring in a dumpster, and dump everything.  

hoarding is a mental illness - is she willing to take an antidepressant?  (it can respond to one.)

 

[Laura Corin]

What happened with my mother: nothing until she was taken into hospital. Her house was then considered a danger to the neighbourhood. She was not allowed home by the hospital. She came to stay with us (not our plan and it was a mistake). After two years we insisted she move to a care home. Meanwhile my brother cleared and sold her house.

Good luck.

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

 she will talk about bringing someone in to hold an estate sale and how much money she would make because all her broken microwaves and two liter bottles she meant to recycle but never did and the old cable boxes and dh's backpack from fourth grade etc etc are worth so much money. 

 

I think she will die in that house. I can't see anyway of her getting out of it.  

I would tell her that sounds like a great idea - she should call someone to help her.  (she might get a reality check if a non-family member tells her broken microwaves aren't worth anything.)

her dying in that house might be a best case scenario.

[teachermom2834]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

stick to your guns.  boundaries - now.  decide how you will communicate boundaries - now.  then you don't have to think about it on the fly.

 

there are options that don't leave her on the street, without moving her in with them.  - housing options that qualify for medicaid.  

there are flippers who will buy houses in that condition.  the return is measly - but you don't have to deal with the mess.  they bring in a dumpster, and dump everything.  

hoarding is a mental illness - is she willing to take an antidepressant?  (it can respond to one.)

 

She is unwilling to have any kind of treatment. She admits she is a hoarder but honestly kind of proud of it. Like she is thriftier and better knows the value of a dollar or whatever. 
 

But yes, mental illness for sure.

Edited June 17, 2020 by teachermom2834

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

. This brings up memories of my dh when he was 19 and his mother made him pay rent when he would return for summer from college. So not feeling super obligated as though she has been supportive of us in similar ways.

We won't mention the remodel again. So gobsmacked this has been her plan for years. We've been talking to her about having a plan. We didn't realize she had one and just wasn't telling us.

My in-laws were similar about the “rent”. They did not say it out loud yet but they hinted about their children paying for a domestic help when they reach that stage. They paid for my husband’s late grandma’s domestic help by “asking” their children for money (so that they don’t need to touch their own money).

Would your MIL expect you to built an ADU (mother in law’s unit) in the future so that she can move in?

[teachermom2834]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My in-laws were similar about the “rent”. They did not say it out loud yet but they hinted about their children paying for a domestic help when they reach that stage. They paid for my husband’s late grandma’s domestic help by “asking” their children for money (so that they don’t need to touch their own money).

Would your MIL expect you to built an ADU (mother in law’s unit) in the future so that she can move in?

Maybe she would expect that? It is so far outside the realm of something that would make sense for her to expect that it seems surely she wouldn't. But then she does live kind of in a fantasy world about some things. So maybe.

[Slache]

4 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

Maybe she would expect that? It is so far outside the realm of something that would make sense for her to expect that it seems surely she wouldn't. But then she does live kind of in a fantasy world about some things. So maybe.

I learned a term called magical thinking and it's a common problem. People have this ending picked out (my MIL was going to buy 5 acres and build 6 homes so the entire family could live together) and logic does not come into play. They are convinced X will happen no matter what and it can be devastating and traumatic when it doesn't.

[Spryte]

Your BIL is director of a nursing home in her state?  Wow.  There's your resource.  Direct it all to him.  He should know all about the things your MIL needs to know, for her care.

Your BIL will know the ins and outs of Medicaid in their state.  Medicaid varies state to state.  In my state, Medicaid never, never, never covers assisted living.  But if someone is an independent apartment, they will send aides, etc.  Obviously, they cover long term nursing care.  This was a surprise to me, so find out about both of your states, and consider keeping her in her own state if Medicaid there covers more.  

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Slache said:

I learned a term called magical thinking and it's a common problem. People have this ending picked out (my MIL was going to buy 5 acres and build 6 homes so the entire family could live together) and logic does not come into play. They are convinced X will happen no matter what and it can be devastating and traumatic when it doesn't.

Yes I can see that. I am a pessimist by nature and have nudged myself into being a little more positive and now I would consider myself a realist. LOL. So she does come up with stuff that is "magical" and I'm like "what are you thinking?". 

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Your BIL is director of a nursing home in her state?  Wow.  There's your resource.  Direct it all to him.  He should know all about the things your MIL needs to know, for her care.

Your BIL will know the ins and outs of Medicaid in their state.  Medicaid varies state to state.  In my state, Medicaid never, never, never covers assisted living.  But if someone is an independent apartment, they will send aides, etc.  Obviously, they cover long term nursing care.  This was a surprise to me, so find out about both of your states, and consider keeping her in her own state if Medicaid there covers more.  

Yes! He should be the resource, right? 

But, how you treat people does sometimes come back to roost. He isn't excited about helping. His wife won't speak to my MIL. Somehow I ended up the nice DIL and that is really saying something. :(

But yes, dh needs to talk to his brother (they only talk once or twice a year. sigh.) 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

 We won't mention the remodel again.  

But thank goodness you did mention it once, causing her to reveal her plans, lol. 

[Slache]

Ok, I listened to the podcast on magical thinking again. Apparently it's caused by enablers. Consumer wants to use an expired coupon, cashier says no, consumer throws a fit, consumer gets what they want. These people are manipulative and hostile (not trying to say yours is, just jumping to conclusions with limited information) and ALWAYS get what they want. Therefore, yes her things will sell and yes she will move in with you, because she knows how to make things work in her favor. They are not used to disappointment and that's why I said it could be traumatic.

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

Your BIL is director of a nursing home in her state?  Wow.  There's your resource.  Direct it all to him.  He should know all about the things your MIL needs to know, for her care.

Your BIL will know the ins and outs of Medicaid in their state.  Medicaid varies state to state.  In my state, Medicaid never, never, never covers assisted living.  But if someone is an independent apartment, they will send aides, etc.  Obviously, they cover long term nursing care.  This was a surprise to me, so find out about both of your states, and consider keeping her in her own state if Medicaid there covers more.  

 

All of that... and make sure he knows NOW that she isn't moving in to the basement.

[Spryte]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Yes! He should be the resource, right? 

But, how you treat people does sometimes come back to roost. He isn't excited about helping. His wife won't speak to my MIL. Somehow I ended up the nice DIL and that is really saying something. 😞

But yes, dh needs to talk to his brother (they only talk once or twice a year. sigh.) 

 

Oh boy.  Yes, he could be an excellent resource, and I hope he will be!  Hopefully your DH and BIL can do some talking and figure out a way forward.  Theoretically, BIL will understand why moving in with your family isn't an option, so he may be open to helping with finding resources where she is.  

We are in the process of getting all three elders here onto Medicaid.  It's complicated, and confusing, and a knowledgable guide would be helpful.  Crossing my fingers for you, that BIL will be helpful.

[teachermom2834]

6 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

 

All of that... and make sure he knows NOW that she isn't moving in to the basement.

oh my gosh...maybe she told him that was the plan and he thinks we are ok with it. He knows her and he knows us and if he thinks that he is guilty of magical thinking too!

[HS Mom in NC]

Is it possible Nursing Home Brother in Law might have a plan or part of a plan already formulated to place her somewhere in case his brother doesn't want her to move in to your house? When adult siblings aren't communicating sometimes they assume way too much about the other.  It's long past time for brothers to have discussed this in some level of detail.  Pick.up.the.phone.already. and figure it out, boys.

[iamonlyone]

Perhaps when the time comes to deal with the house, you could use a company like Caring Transitions? I don't know how much it would cost, but it would be lovely to have a single company  deal with all the clearing, cleaning, fixing, selling, etc.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

But yes, dh needs to talk to his brother (they only talk once or twice a year. sigh.) 

This is a very common dynamic in dysfunctional parental relationships.  Each wants to flee a bad situation with parent and just exits the scene.  This is especially true if parent has been manipulative by using one sibling as a weapon against the other.

Dh needs to be clear on the "never, ever, not ever in a million years will she ever live with us" scenario.  There can be no question in brother's mind at the end of the convo or there is a wedge for mother to chip at.

[teachermom2834]

9 minutes ago, iamonlyone said:

Perhaps when the time comes to deal with the house, you could use a company like Caring Transitions? I don't know how much it would cost, but it would be lovely to have a single company  deal with all the clearing, cleaning, fixing, selling, etc.

We will have to do something like this. It is far beyond anything we can do, especially given the distance. I was wondering what this kind of company is even called so I would know how to find one. 

[teachermom2834]

44 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Is it possible Nursing Home Brother in Law might have a plan or part of a plan already formulated to place her somewhere in case his brother doesn't want her to move in to your house? When adult siblings aren't communicating sometimes they assume way too much about the other.  It's long past time for brothers to have discussed this in some level of detail.  Pick.up.the.phone.already. and figure it out, boys.

Of course they should. But dysfunctional families are pretty dysfunctional! 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

Of course they should. But dysfunctional families are pretty dysfunctional! 

 

I come from a very dysfunctional family.  We still talk about stuff like this because we're not children anymore. Someone has to stop feeding the dysfunction by just manning up and saying, "Look, I know this is a really uncomfortable topic, and this situation really sucks for everyone, but we need to decide how we're going to handle Mom's inevitable decline." Often people from dysfunctional backgrounds get sent the message that they're fragile because those around them tip toe around normal, real life topics. There's no need for that unless your husband and his brother are mentally unstable.  They have to talk about what to do about Mom because everyone else has to talk about what to do about Mom whether their background is dysfunctional or not.

And you should point out that this is primarily husband and BIL's problem to solve and execute, not yours. I would be very careful to always phrase it that way. "What are you and your brother going to do about this? You two need a plan in place before it all goes to hell with her, which could happen overnight for any elderly person, and it's a whole lot to sort out, so now is the time." If he says he doesn't know, then point out that it's up to them to figure it out, "Well, call your brother tomorrow and discuss it with him. He's a director of a nursing home. He's an ideal source of information. Why wouldn't you have already talked to him about the options and issues related to your mother? " Then silently maintain eye contact with your head tilted and eyebrows raised waiting for an answer.

[Moonhawk]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I come from a very dysfunctional family.  We still talk about stuff like this because we're not children anymore. Someone has to stop feeding the dysfunction by just manning up and saying, "Look, I know this is a really uncomfortable topic, and this situation really sucks for everyone, but we need to decide how we're going to handle Mom's inevitable decline." Often people from dysfunctional backgrounds get sent the message that they're fragile because those around them tip toe around normal, real life topics. There's no need for that unless your husband and his brother are mentally unstable.  They have to talk about what to do about Mom because everyone else has to talk about what to do about Mom whether their background is dysfunctional or not.

And you should point out that this is primarily husband and BIL's problem to solve and execute, not yours. I would be very careful to always phrase it that way. "What are you and your brother going to do about this? You two need a plan in place before it all goes to hell with her, which could happen overnight for any elderly person, and it's a whole lot to sort out, so now is the time." If he says he doesn't know, then point out that it's up to them to figure it out, "Well, call your brother tomorrow and discuss it with him. He's a director of a nursing home. He's an ideal source of information. Why wouldn't you have already talked to him about the options and issues related to your mother? " Then silently maintain eye contact with your head tilted and eyebrows raised waiting for an answer.

While I agree yes, the brothers should talk, I don't like the idea of logicking him into doing it, at least like this. I am a fairly logical person who tries to follow fairly logical actions, but I am not Spock and "Why wouldn't you have already..." triggers a defensive reaction to me. I know this is just example wording, etc, but yeah. I had a "You're right" reaction but felt less moved to do an action. I would feel bullied by this. 

There is a difference between getting the response "You're right" and "That's right." "You're right"s don't necessarily lead to actual action -- the person is acknowledging the logic of the words but is not internalizing it or taking on action, and any action promised from this type of approach is either done reluctantly or not at all. It is forced on them.

"That's right" means the person is bringing in the information and seeing that, completely separate from where the information comes from, it is a valid and true statement. They see the value and agree with IT, and it isn't a part of "you" anymore.

Asking a question like "Are you avoiding bring this up with your brother for a particular reason?" or "Are you concerned your brother is going to disagree on what needs to be done?" or "What do you think you and your brother can both agree on?" and then listening to what the block is -- not to fix it, but to understand and empathize with them -- will help him process any reluctance and help you both see more clearly what issues may come up. I'm sure there are better questions, too.

This isn't treating them with kid gloves, it's treating them with respect and concern about something that is difficult no matter the family background, and particularly more difficult when coming from a background with dysfunction. And it's acknowledging that they are autonomous individuals that can make their own decisions. It is easier to "man up" when you are the one doing it, not being forced by someone else's logic.

 

[iamonlyone]

16 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

We will have to do something like this. It is far beyond anything we can do, especially given the distance. I was wondering what this kind of company is even called so I would know how to find one. 

I found a list at this site: https://www.owler.com/company/caringtransitions

Hope that helps! Having been in charge of taking care of my mom's estate three years ago, I understand your concern—and my mom wasn't a hoarder. It is a difficult task even without that component.

ETA: I just found that the link can be visited a limited number of times before you have to sign up to view, so you might want to screen shot or take notes.

Edited June 18, 2020 by iamonlyone

[teachermom2834]

10 minutes ago, iamonlyone said:

I found a list at this site: https://www.owler.com/company/caringtransitions

Hope that helps! Having been in charge of taking care of my mom's estate three years ago, I understand your concern—and my mom wasn't a hoarder. It is a difficult task even without that component.

ETA: I just found that the link can be visited a limited number of times before you have to sign up to view, so you might want to screen shot or take notes.

Thank you. I actually looked up the company this morning and saw they have a location near her.

This will only happen when she is incapable of making decisions. She would never agree to anything like this (because of the cost, because they say they will dispose of things, etc.) but we will someday need to deal with this from a long distance and this will be what needs to be done. 

Part of the reason there are no plans in place for her is that she straight up has refused to ever discuss any of it. Her reaction to the remodeling news was the first indication she has ever considered that she is getting older, can't live alone forever, etc. She has only ever said that she will die and leave all her crap for us to deal with. 

She really wouldn't ever really move in with us. She will not leave her hoard until she really needs care and needs to go into a home. She would not leave her hoard while she was still well enough to live without nursing care. So this was just some fantasy she had cooked up in her head. When we have talked about dealing with the house she just says she will die and make it our problem. 

[Jentrovert]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Thank you. I actually looked up the company this morning and saw they have a location near her.

This will only happen when she is incapable of making decisions. She would never agree to anything like this (because of the cost, because they say they will dispose of things, etc.) but we will someday need to deal with this from a long distance and this will be what needs to be done. 

Part of the reason there are no plans in place for her is that she straight up has refused to ever discuss any of it. Her reaction to the remodeling news was the first indication she has ever considered that she is getting older, can't live alone forever, etc. She has only ever said that she will die and leave all her crap for us to deal with. 

She really wouldn't ever really move in with us. She will not leave her hoard until she really needs care and needs to go into a home. She would not leave her hoard while she was still well enough to live without nursing care. So this was just some fantasy she had cooked up in her head. When we have talked about dealing with the house she just says she will die and make it our problem. 

In my experience with several older relatives, this is actually easier than trying to do things while they are alive.

For example, our last older relative (besides parents) passed away a couple of years ago. We had been, for years and years, unable to make any meaningful progress on organizing, disposing of trash, etc. and had finally just given up. After they passed away, we were able to get everything done on our own timetable. No sorting through while they slowly look at every single scrap of paper they've accumulated for the last 50 years, no keeping anything "just in case". It was quick and painless. Yes, a lot of work, but so much better than if they had been present.

Maybe a way of looking at that positively, since it sounds like it's what will happen. In your case, possibly even easier, since you live far enough away you might need to hire it out.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

 So this was just some fantasy she had cooked up in her head. When we have talked about dealing with the house she just says she will die and make it our problem. 

🙄

I think I'll call my m-i-l and thank her today, lol. 

[mathnerd]

20 minutes ago, Jentrovert said:

After they passed away, we were able to get everything done on our own timetable. No sorting through while they slowly look at every single scrap of paper they've accumulated for the last 50 years, no keeping anything "just in case". It was quick and painless.

My next door neighbor who had hoarded in her large house since the 70's died a few months ago. The lawyer for her estate brought in a crew that hauled away every single scrap of thing from their house (they had 6 truckfuls), cleared out the yard and garage and painted the house, re-landscaped the yard and hired a real estate agent. The lawyer also contracted out to an Estate Sale company that came in and put up an estate sale for every thing that was worth selling before the rest of the stuff was hauled away. The inheritors were on the opposite coast and only ever flew in for sentimental reasons. So, it can be done easily after the person who is emotionally attached to their hoard is no longer directing the disposal of the hoard.

[teachermom2834]

27 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

My next door neighbor who had hoarded in her large house since the 70's died a few months ago. The lawyer for her estate brought in a crew that hauled away every single scrap of thing from their house (they had 6 truckfuls), cleared out the yard and garage and painted the house, re-landscaped the yard and hired a real estate agent. The lawyer also contracted out to an Estate Sale company that came in and put up an estate sale for every thing that was worth selling before the rest of the stuff was hauled away. The inheritors were on the opposite coast and only ever flew in for sentimental reasons. So, it can be done easily after the person who is emotionally attached to their hoard is no longer directing the disposal of the hoard.

This is encouraging. Dh will have zero attachment to anything there so it will be easy emotionally to just let someone else do it. I know it will be expensive but there just is no way to manage that from here so it will just cost what it costs. And we have pretty much been thinking there would be no progress made until she was out (and by out I don't mean living here). 

 

[KungFuPanda]

A friend told her hoarder relative that she will NEVER sift through the hoard. She will have it’s disposed of by a third party sight-unseen. The hoarder was completely blindsided. She never even considered this was an option. It was a bazaar reaction. My friend thinks she made the relative’s brain explode.  

[teachermom2834]

19 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

A friend told her hoarder relative that she will NEVER sift through the hoard. She will have it’s disposed of by a third party sight-unseen. The hoarder was completely blindsided. She never even considered this was an option. It was a bazaar reaction. My friend thinks she made the relative’s brain explode.  

Yeah we keep telling her we aren't sorting it and she keeps telling us there are valuable things in there. We tell her nothing is that valuable. The last time she gave a list of instructions and said then we could have someone come in. We still told her we aren't sorting through it at all. 

Y'all...a couple years ago someone was throwing away an old oven that was broken. MIL took the oven, paid someone to come move it in to her basement...because someday she might have a big party and need more than one oven. Dh went to be with her about a decade ago when she had breast cancer surgery and he had to clear a path to walk through the house...and MIL had to sleep sitting up on the couch post surgery because the rest of the couch was covered with stuff and the door of her bedroom couldn't even be opened because of the stuff stacked up in the room. That was the last time any of us has seen the house and she still talks about how she got it clean for dh to come up for the surgery and how she could do that again if we visited. So it is as bad as any episode of Hoarders. 

It's hard when you want to be kind and do the right thing by people (especially parents!)  It's embarrassing to say we have never taken the kids to visit her. But some people make is so you just can't help them. Back after her surgery dh was willing to take vacation time from work and I was willing to leave my kids with my parents (which we have never done for any other reason) and get her cleaned out and started over. She refused. It is good that she did because now that I know more about hoarding I know she would have just done it again so it is good that we didn't make that financial investment in getting her set.  

But yeah...there is a reason she is in her situation and that we can't help her. We made a good run at it years ago trying to get her connected with help, services, etc. Some people just can't be helped (but likewise can't move in to my house).

[skimomma]

I just went through this with my own mother about one year ago.  She has dementia and could no longer live on her own.  However, she 100% refuses to move in or near either of her children.  We both live very far away.  She is also a hoarder and I also have a house that would never work for her needs so even if she had been willing to move in with me, we would have had many issues to resolve.  We ended up moving her into assisted living in her own area.  It was the least offensive of the choices we presented to her.  It was no longer safe for her to stay in her home.  This arrangement is VERY difficult for me as I now must manage all of her affairs from a full day's drive away but it was the closest we could get to an agreeable compromise.  It is a mess.  But the move was an even bigger mess.  She was renting so we had to get everything out and cleaned up within a prescribed timeline.  We did hire a company like Caring Transitions.  It would have taken us months to do what we were able to do in a single week with their help.  It was very expensive but worth every penny.  But they cannot do everything and you should be aware of this.  If the owner is still alive, they will not touch any kind of paperwork, computers, or any medications.  I worked with my mom to identify the belongings she could take to assisted living first, then the company took everything else away leaving all of the paperwork.  In my mom's case, "paperwork" was a minivan full of paper, much of it filthy!  I had to sort through all of it, page by page, because important stuff was mixed in with all of the junk mail, old magazines, receipts, used tissues (I wish I were kidding), etc....  I ended up taking much of it home as I couldn't possibly sort through it all in one week.  I had to rent a van to bring it home, it would not all go in our car.  I stored it all in my garage and spent nearly 6 months picking away at it, one box at a time.  

I expected much more pushback from my mom about disposing of most of her hoard.  We tried to clean out her house (at her request) about ten years ago and it was a nightmare.  We made very little progress.  She was taking things out of the dumpsters faster than we could put it in.  The company we worked with for this last move has a ton of experience with this and suggested that we spend one day, and no more, having her select what she will keep, rather than what she will toss.  The hardest part was keeping her from getting distracted.  Rapid-fire yay/nay decisions proved to be most effective in our case. We boxed up and moved those items and her into her new home.  She never returned to her old home after that day.  I scheduled doctor's appointments and other distractions for the remainder of the week.  My dh accompanied her on all of those while I supervised the house clean out.  I needed to be there as there were things we missed (actually were too far buried for us to have gotten to safely) that I knew my mom would want/need and I could set them aside as we shoveled the hoard away.

I am pessimistic by nature.  I always expect the worst and am usually pleasantly surprised by the actual outcome.  That week was successful but much worse than even *I* expected, which is saying a lot.  It was probably the most physically and emotionally draining thing I have ever done.  And very very dirty.  Brace yourself.

[teachermom2834]

@skimomma I’m so sorry. Hoarding is absolutely awful on the family and just seems like there is no solution.  I remember reading that there is a better treatment success rate with drug addiction than with hoarding (I don’t know that is true it just made a big impact on me). When I read that I let go of trying to help her fix it, though if she really wanted to change we would try to be supportive. 
 

Yes, I can totally see a van full of paperwork. Thanks for sharing your story. 

[Scarlett]

I am so sorry y'all have to go through this kind of stuff.  😞  My dad had a gigantic shop full of his 'treasures'....lots of old antiques and stuff....some of it is probably valuable to someone.... but anyway nothing at all like what some of y'all are describing.  😞