Contact Tracing jobs - Work from home

[Janeway]

3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Here is how my state is doing contact tracing. I am so glad they're doing this, and it will give me much more confidence to go out once this starts to abate, which it has not here

You are okay with this??? I would not be. 

[kbutton]

5 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Agreed. So if this virus spreads like the flu, kills as does the flu, why were we not doing it for the flu?? And people are like oh, you can't ask that, this is worse. Well I say the number of deaths from flu are pretty honkin high too. So do they not contact trace for flu because testing rates are too low and thus participation rates would be too low for it to make a difference? 

See that's all I'm saying. Why aren't we allowed to ask questions? Why is the legislature not getting involved?

They would absolutely do this for the "right" strain of flu. Our most likely pandemic scenario before coronavirus has been the flu. That is why it is monitored and why vaccines exist. We could, quite seriously, have an outbreak of pandemic flu at any time. The fact that we have a coronavirus pandemic doesn't reduce our risk of having an imminent flu pandemic that we've been expecting for decades. I think coronavirus outbreaks were seen as a potential threat, but still kind of the new kid on the block.

The legislature is not getting involved because they already wrote laws way back when to give emergency powers to health departments. 

We are where we are because we opted not to prepare before this and partially because even with horrible novel flu, we'd likely have a vaccine sooner. I have been reading things for years about potential outbreaks. 

I recently learned (may have forgotten) that George W sat up and took notice when he was in office that we were at major risk of pandemic flu. 

 

[Matryoshka]

10 minutes ago, Janeway said:

You are okay with this??? I would not be. 

Yep, perfectly fine.  What part do you object to?  The 'isolation sites' are only for people who can not isolate at home, to keep their families safe.  I could isolate at home, but if I couldn't, I would be grateful to have a place to go where I wouldn't infect my loved ones.  As for quarantine, heck, that's no different than what I'm already doing.  And I would be super-grateful to be told that I'd been exposed to someone with an active case and be offered testing (unlikely, because I'm staying home).   But if I were working an essential job, I'd want to know I was infected and stay home so as to not infect others.

And no ankle bracelets involved, here.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Scarlett]

25 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Looks like in Kentucky, once they determine you have been in contact with someone who tests positive, you are quarantined to your home and given an ankle band, like a criminal on house arrest, until you can prove you are clear. How long until anyone who refuses to take a vaccination is put on ankle monitors? In this article, it was ordered against someone who lived with someone who tested positive, but did not test positive themselves. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/us/kentucky-coronavirus-residents-ankle-monitors-trnd/index.html In California, they are talking about forcibly breaking up families when someone in the home tests positive. How does this make you feel about contact tracing? The county I live in has a 0.002% death rate from Covid and way more people have died from cigarette smoking each year than what Covid is likely to do (something where even if a child died from SIDS, they won't call it a smoking caused death, but if a child dies from a roll over accident, they will call it Covid now). Why isn't cigarette smoking illegal?

 

edited to add: I won't be consenting to Covid testing even if I get sick. I won't put my family at risk by doing the testing.

That guy is a danger to public health. he wouldn’t have a monitor on him if he was responsible , 

[Matryoshka]

48 minutes ago, Janeway said:

 The county I live in has a 0.002% death rate from Covid

Well, bless your heart. My county has a Covid death rate of 0.067%. Just my town (not a big one) has 127 cases. May you continue to be so fortunate. 

Quote

edited to add: I won't be consenting to Covid testing even if I get sick. I won't put my family at risk by doing the testing.

Um, in reality, the opposite is true. If you have it and don't know it, you could infect your family. Getting tested doesn't make you catch the virus...  but if you did test positive,  you could isolate yourself and keep them safe.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Dreamergal said:

One day we are hearing people are being laid off because hospitals are losing income because of cancellation of procedures. So put those people to work. This is the third largest country population wise in the world. We are the largest nation with the highest number of cases, so NY maybe overrun. But certainly not my state based on the stats. to even my county. We are given the number of ventilators and bed available in the stats. So I refuse to believe everyone is busy treating people. If that is true why the laying off or on furlough of medical staff. One of this is the truth. Either we are so overrun which is true in places like NY or in many places in the country that is not true. So universally saying "you will burden the system" does not work for me. It sounds a bit like shaming me to give my information because it is "necessary" and  mandated without any oversight or legislation. Absolutely not. I will not give my information to a random person. End of. Come at me with a court order. Until then not telling a random person on the phone. Absolutely not, line in the sand, 

This is so completely strange to me.  That you  would draw a line in the sand about telling the health department who you had close contact with recently.  

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I don't care who they hire as long as they call from a doctor's office, not from my doctor's office. Doctor's office bottom line, Not a random company. if y'all are good with that, ok for you. Not for me.

Whaaaat?  Just any doctors office is better to you than a health department employee? Ok, I need to not discuss this with you anymore because it is just beyond the pale for me. I am not calling you selfish.  I am saying your thinking is a little off on this. Although maybe you don’t understand how the health department works in this country.   We don’t have to agree on it though.  
 

oh wait....so if it is a doctor from the health department you would be ok with that?   

Edited May 11, 2020 by Scarlett

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I assume like the labs that do testing like LabCorp and Quest are the ones doing it.

Labcorp is not doing covid testing. They’ve specifically been sending around emails about that. I don’t think doctors are doing it either for the same reason. Our counties have been doing the tracing.

[Pen]

41 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

One day we are hearing people are being laid off because hospitals are losing income because of cancellation of procedures. So put those people to work. This is the third largest country population wise in the world. We are the largest nation with the highest number of cases, so NY maybe overrun. But certainly not my state based on the stats. to even my county. We are given the number of ventilators and bed available in the stats. So I refuse to believe everyone is busy treating people. If that is true why the laying off or on furlough of medical staff. One of this is the truth. Either we are so overrun which is true in places like NY or in many places in the country that is not true. So universally saying "you will burden the system" does not work for me. It sounds a bit like shaming me to give my information because it is "necessary" and  mandated without any oversight or legislation. Absolutely not. I will not give my information to a random person. End of. Come at me with a court order. Until then not telling a random person on the phone. Absolutely not, line in the sand.

ETA: What next ? It is a slippery slope.

 

The top choice for people to do the contract tracing is health workers, particularly nurses afaik.  They also have asked for volunteers from medical community (could be doctors, nurses, others...) . Though locally for me, much of our medical community shifted to telemedicine and are now amongst first group to go back to functioning  (deferred “elective” medical procedures etc are back up) and the contact tracing fits with opening up as the medical staffers are getting back busier with deferred procedures.

Here’s a part of my state initial interest form (apparently everyone has to have a yes for at least two of the health worker or language fluency questions to be considered— or a very strong “other” to qualify) :

 

Relevant Experience

Are you a licensed health care worker?

 

Yes

Are you a certified community health worker?

 

Yes

 

Are you fluent in more than one language?

 

Yes

Select

 

 

Additional Information

Add any skills and additional information you would like to share.

Attach Resum

Edited May 11, 2020 by Pen

[Scarlett]

Just now, kdsuomi said:

It doesn't seem strange to me. If I were diagnosed with a communicable disease and were concerned about those I had come in contact with, I would contact those people, not give their information to others without their permission. 

Again, what is the big secret about who you have had contact with? 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

It's not. Some people just don't want to give out other people's information. I'm not giving people other people's phone numbers without permission. 

I had a friend who was like this.  Always worried someone would tell some of her ‘business’.  I find it so foreign and bizarre...it is one of the reasons I can’t be friends with her.  If I have coffee with you I won’t be keeping that a secret from the rest of the world.  And especially  if I have tested positive for a highly contagious virus I won’t be keeping it a secret from the authorities who ask in order to prevent further spread.  

[Pen]

It doesn’t matter.  It reminds me of the people on The Who Cares thread a few month ago who were saying they were going to refuse to follow international travel shut downs and were going to go abroad as planned no matter what.  I wasted typing energy arguing . But it is silly. They weren’t actually going to set off in a canoe when their plane flight was cancelled. 

And eventually most people here will end up going along with contract tracing as well even if they hang up on the Tracers the first 10 times they call.   

Not everyone.  Some people probably already do, and some probably will continue to prefer to die privately in their own home if need be than to deal with “the authorities”.  

And a few people, though I hope not in WTM community, will probably hear they might be infected and will deliberately go out and cough on the produce in grocery store or similar  because there are a certain number of people who are like that. 🤷‍♀️ Very Sadly. But seems to be the way it is. 

But quite a few people with even “mild” CV19 cases will end up communicating because of  how very bad they will be feeling if they do have CV19 . Even if willing communication starts with their own doctor whom they trust more. 

ETA: and probably those of us who will communicate more readily or even use an opt in app along with masks, hygiene, Distancing etc, will be enough to help keep spread from going back into an upward hockey stick exponential rise in many states. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Pen

[Frances]

42 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

One day we are hearing people are being laid off because hospitals are losing income because of cancellation of procedures. So put those people to work. This is the third largest country population wise in the world. We are the largest nation with the highest number of cases, so NY maybe overrun. But certainly not my state based on the stats. to even my county. We are given the number of ventilators and bed available in the stats. So I refuse to believe everyone is busy treating people. If that is true why the laying off or on furlough of medical staff. One of this is the truth. Either we are so overrun which is true in places like NY or in many places in the country that is not true. So universally saying "you will burden the system" does not work for me. It sounds a bit like shaming me to give my information because it is "necessary" and  mandated without any oversight or legislation. Absolutely not. I will not give my information to a random person. End of. Come at me with a court order. Until then not telling a random person on the phone. Absolutely not, line in the sand.

ETA: What next ? It is a slippery slope.

I highly doubt hospitals would be compensated at a rate even remotely close to what they make from regular patients, so I don’t see them agreeing to it. And at least here, all medical procedures are now allowed. The only thing stopping any health visit or procedure is adequate PPE and people’s willingness to go in. 
For the most part, it will be people hired by public health departments who will do the contact tracing. My state is not using any private firms. Each county is beefing up their own force. And how do you know there is not oversight or legislation? Have you researched how your state does it? This all existed before the current pandemic. It’s not like it’s some new, crazy idea to contact trace. It’s just increasing the number of people doing it. So it’s not a slippery slope because it has been in existence for a very long time.

As for privacy of healthcare information, I think people are naive if they really believe HIPPA protects them. Having previously worked for a medical software company, I can assure you it does not. But as far as I understand, no one is going to be asking about health information anyway.

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No one is keeping it a secret. All I want is a person who is in the medical field to ask the question. I would absolutely be ok with giving it to a doctor, not only my doctor. I don't know why that is such a problem.

Because that is not the way contact tracing is set up in this country.  Why should you get to dictate how contact tracing is carried out and by whom?

Asking for guidelines on who will ask the question, what we will answer is not unreasonable at all to me. Why is asking questions looked upon with so much suspicion ? I don't understand. 

Also, If I have coffee with a friend, I will not be telling that to other people. Why would you mention it or even bring it up ? that is bizarre to me. People generally open up to me because I've asked questions about their countries, heritage and so on. But I will not share that information with anyone. I am generally secretive I guess about what pertains to others, I will talk about me and my experiences or a general experience, not others. My information is mine to give, if I have others information I handle it with care, always. I have worked in the IT industry for years. I've had access to sensitive information, that is how I was trained and I guess that has spilled to my real life. Be careful with others information even if it is "for the greater good". Ask me how I feel about facebook and google sharing information. 

Who I have coffee with is as much 'my' information as it is the friend's.  And to be clear I am not referring to the conversation we might have or any private information she might have shared.  I am excellent at keeping a confidence.  But the fact that I had coffee with who ever yesterday at 10:00 a.m is not something that needs to be kept in confidence. And that is basically all the health department would be asking you..who have you had contact with in the last X number of days.  Not 'what is your ss number, or your bank account or your friend's deepest darkest secrets. '

 

[Frances]

11 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

No one is keeping it a secret. All I want is a person who is in the medical field to ask the question. I would absolutely be ok with giving it to a doctor, not only my doctor. I don't know why that is such a problem. Asking for guidelines on who will ask the question, what we will answer is not unreasonable at all to me. Why is asking questions looked upon with so much suspicion ? I don't understand. 

Also, If I have coffee with a friend, I will not be telling that to other people. Why would you mention it or even bring it up ? that is bizarre to me. People generally open up to me because I've asked questions about their countries, heritage and so on. But I will not share that information with anyone. I am generally secretive I guess about what pertains to others, I will talk about me and my experiences or a general experience, not others. My information is mine to give, if I have others information I handle it with care, always. I have worked in the IT industry for years. I've had access to sensitive information, that is how I was trained and I guess that has spilled to my real life. Be careful with others information even if it is "for the greater good". Ask me how I feel about facebook and google sharing information. 

Why would you trust a doctor more than someone with training in public health? All you are giving is names of contacts, not your private health information. If you want to only use doctors, then it is going to cost your county and state way, way more money at a time when most governmental budgets are in dire straits. As someone who is married to a healthcare professional, I have to say I find your trust in doctors puzzling.

My whole career I’ve dealt with sensitive, protected information of one type or another, including medical. So of course I don’t use Facebook. But I see this as very different and wouldn’t hesitate to provide the names of my contacts.

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

I highly doubt hospitals would be compensated at a rate even remotely close to what they make from regular patients, so I don’t see them agreeing to it. And at least here, all medical procedures are now allowed. The only thing stopping any health visit or procedure is adequate PPE and people’s willingness to go in. 
For the most part, it will be people hired by public health departments who will do the contact tracing. My state is not using any private firms. Each county is beefing up their own force. And how do you know there is not oversight or legislation? Have you researched how your state does it? This all existed before the current pandemic. It’s not like it’s some new, crazy idea to contact trace. It’s just increasing the number of people doing it. So it’s not a slippery slope because it has been in existence for a very long time.

As for privacy of healthcare information, I think people are naive if they really believe HIPPA protects them. Having previously worked for a medical software company, I can assure you it does not.

 

Yes to all that.

4 minutes ago, Frances said:

But as far as I understand, no one is going to be asking about health information anyway.

 

It is possible. Minimally.

They may ask about temperature, pulse oxygen  if that’s known, respiration rate or blood pressure or pulse rate,  if known. Symptoms that could be CV19.   And they might ask about risk factors which could cause more likelihood of severe cases.

When I spoke with our health department in March they asked about things like that.  

 

[Pen]

 

 

 

If she ends up in that situation, she will presumably contact her doctor whom she trusts and probably her doctor or at least the office will explain to her how it works in her area, which will probably be similar though not exactly the same as for my state or Massachusetts as posted by Matryoshka. 

 

I expect also that dealing with many different attitudes and suspicions and fears would also be part of the training . 

As well as people from different country backgrounds—which is also probably why fluency in multiple languages is a desired qualification. 

 

12 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

 

Because that is not the way contact tracing is set up in this country.  Why should you get to dictate how contact tracing is carried out and by whom?

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

People like me who come from a system where there is not a lot of trust but where government demands we do something have a bit starry eyed view of the American system always despite it's flaws. Also what is visible and what people "get" immediately if you are born here is lost on me. That is the background and you can call it a baggage if you will. Now you guys are explaining it to me and I trust you guys even though you are "random strangers" because I choose to trust your opinions if I ask you questions about my child's education. I trust you guys simply because you belong to this board and it has a reputation. I am looking for that reputation I guess to trust with my medical information. To most people in the developing world, a doctor is a trusted person that is why I say doctor. 

Make the process more transparent is all I am asking. Random people turning up asking personal questions always puts fear in people from  developing countries. Over the phone, more suspicious. So it will always be looked upon with suspicion even it is utterly trustworthy. Give out information on how it is done, what it is done, why it is done. Educate people. Don't push back even if they ask the stupidest questions. It may come from a place of fear and wanting to understand. America is to many a place where they can freely ask the dumbest question and not be penalized for it.  We look at the world through our experiences, so make it more so make it more open is all I am asking I guess as I have rambled on and on. 

 

My father was both a doctor in private practice much of his career and also for some of his career a United States Public Health Officer and at another time a private public health worker.

 

It is fairly complex system as there are Federal, state, local, and private aspects—and “public health” is in many ways separate from what a personal physician does — though they have connection points.  

US Public Health Officer is under the US Surgeon General, I believe, and is considered a military position. Or at least quasi-military.

Each State has a public health department by some name.  Afaik Most if not all counties also do.  Some cities also do. 

They oversee all sorts of things.  Restaurant inspection, cleanliness and safety, for example, is a public health department area.  

So, in general, is disease surveillance, epidemiology, etc, which is where contact tracing comes in.   

Private personal physicians in general don’t do disease surveillance other than to report reportable diseases to the health departments as required or to do required follow ups. Even if they were trained in both areas, when they are practicing as personal physicians they aren’t generally also doing disease surveillance, epidemiology, contact tracing, unless they have volunteered to do some or have a personal fascination with epidemiology, or some similar reason.

You could look at it as specialty areas. Someone could have a Masters degree in Public Health and also an MD or also an RN or neither.

 

If your area has very few cases and is not overwhelmed, I would actually suggest that sometime this next week (probably not Monday which tends to be busy with people waiting over weekend to call if your health department isn’t open weekends) you call your city, county, and / or state health department and talk with whomever answers.  (I would choose the most local level for your area.)

You might feel better to talk with someone and get a feel for there being real people.  Ask your “what if” scenario , and find out for your own area, if you were a close contact of someone with CV19 , who would be likely to call you and what would they ask.  How could you determine if they were legitimate versus a scam?

Health departments have public education as one of their jobs, so letting them know you don’t understand and are fearful of what the process may be is itself totally legitimate. 

Try to Set your mind at ease with some facts rather than fearful imaginings. 

 

[Pen]

In terms of asking your personal physician or your friend’s personal physician to take care of contact tracing for you, it is a little like asking that they go inspect the restaurant you might go to (when restaurants are open) for you.  It really isn’t a personal physician job to do that—and usually not their training either. And also not even their legal jurisdiction. 

(Idk, maybe someone like Howard Hughes would have had a personal physician to check a restaurant or do contact tracing— but it is certainly not the usual approach.)

 

ETA: or to consider it differently, consider if a family owned restaurant you go to when that is allowed refused to allow health department checks, slammed door on health department inspectors, hung up on inspectors calling, and insisted that only their own family physician could be allowed back in the kitchen to take a look because the health department inspector doing it would violate their personal freedom and privacy.  But the job of health departments is to see to a more general public health and safety.  So, sure, the restaurant can refuse entrance—and they can be shut down because being inspected is part of being a restaurant.

For most illnesses the health department does not get involved.  It is pretty much entirely your personal affair when colds and various other ailments beset your family.  But for some, and certainly a pandemic virus is an example, Health Departments do get involved.  And there can be legal repercussions to refusing to deal with them. 

So, yes, we do need to know how to determine legitimacy—but to “draw a line in the sand” and insist on “a court order” would probably get you in a lot more trouble than you are trying to avoid. 

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

30 minutes ago, Danae said:

I know a Chaplin in the USPH Commissioned Corps. It’s a non-military uniformed service. Oddly, they use naval rankings.

I did not know they had expanded to having chaplains.  

(it can be designated as a military branch during war or National Emergency, such as WWII)

 

https://usphs.gov/aboutus/history.aspx

Edited May 11, 2020 by Pen

[Valley Girl]

Dreamergirl, I  read this thread last night and just wanted to say that I understand your concerns. I don't give out info over the phone to people I don't know.

When random roofer calls after a storm offering a free roof check and wanting to  know how old my roof is, I don't tell him.

When the group that claims to want to altuistically save me money on my electric bill calls and wants to know my monthly bill, I don't tell them.

When a caller asked questions about a neighbor years ago (I suspect for bill collection), he was told that I don't give out information about my neighbors to strangers.

When someone calling from my health insurance company cold-called to get info for coordination of benefits, I didn't give it. (I did, however, explain my reluctance to give personal info just in case the call was legitimate. Then I called the health insurance company directly.)

I'm not "hiding"  anything. None of that information is "secret." It is, however, with the exception of the insurance company, none of anyone else's damn business. They have no right to the info and I have no obligation to provide it just because someone, who may or may not be whom they claim to be, asks for it.

Obviously, contact tracing during a pandemic is different. I still would not provide anyone's personal information over the phone. Numbers can be spoofed. Dishonest people and businesses scam. What I would do, though, it take the person's name and contact information. Then I'd take the initiative to verify whether or not the call was legitimate (e.g. calling the state health department at a number I looked up, etc.)

For Pete's sake, we've already been warned about bogus text messages being sent out to people about how they've been exposed and need to click a link for information. So caution in response to information requests (secret or otherwise) by anyone claiming governmental or health authority is completely understandable.

These entities need to make it easy for people to independently verify that calls are legit if they want cooperation.

 

[QueenCat]

13 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

 So universally saying "you will burden the system" does not work for me. It sounds a bit like shaming me to give my information because it is "necessary" and  mandated without any oversight or legislation. Absolutely not. I will not give my information to a random person. End of. Come at me with a court order. Until then not telling a random person on the phone. Absolutely not, line in the sand.

ETA: What next ? It is a slippery slope.

Legislation for contact tracing already exists; it has for years. If you won't give the info to contact tracers, I hope you are staying at home right now & not seeing anyone outside the people you live with. If you had contact with me, and then found out you'd been exposed to COVID, and then didn't pass on the info to the tracers, you would be HURTING ME & everyone else that I'd exposed. 

[Janeway]

So basically, yesterday alone, I had to have come in contact with over 1000 people. I went to a few stores, I walked down Main Street. I took a train, and went to the grocery, and played at the park. Two days earlier, I went to a park and hiked all over it and other people were there. On Saturday, I went to a variety of stores. Every day, I pretty much go somewhere and I go walking. Because of the inventory at stores, I frequently go to 2-3 stores on a day just for grocery type items and other such things. So if I test positive, someone is going to track my phone and track everyone else's phones and data and everything and find out the thousands of people I have been on contact with and demand they quarantine, and then the thousands of people they have been in contact with, and so on? Meanwhile, our economy collapses, people with diabetes are doing worse (which is what makes people actually die from this virus, uncontrolled blood sugar is the top precursor for death with Covid), children are committing suicide and of those who don't, some are being abused, depressed, and most are gaining weight....and in the end, my county has a 0.002% death rate from Covid. At this point, the shut down appears to be more of a social experiment than science.  I have been reading over studies and articles, including from CNN and WHO and I think that continuing the shutdown at this point is a very bad thing. I accept that we likely will have to re-shutdown next flu season, but I think unless we recover our economy, our people, and we allow a number of people to get Covid (considering a minimum of 80% have no symptoms and therefore, won't know they have it unless there is general testing anyway), then in the fall, with very few people having antibodies and the flu season coming up, and cold weather and everything, Covid will be even more deadly. 

[Matryoshka]

21 minutes ago, Valley Girl said:

These entities need to make it easy for people to independently verify that calls are legit if they want cooperation.

Are other states not doing this? My state is plastering the number contact tracing calls come, and what they will and will not ask, from everywhere so people know which # is legit, and also know what info will not ever be asked for (like no SSN or medical insurance info will be asked for). 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Pen]

 

https://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/495684-what-is-contact-tracing-and-which-states-are

@dreamergal 

each place will do things a little differently. Matryoshka gave you info for Massachusetts.

Here is some information from a county (or two) in Wisconsin:

https://publichealthmdc.com/blog/what-does-a-contact-investigation-look-like-a-behind-the-scenes-look-at-our

I do very strongly urge you to contact your own city, county, or state department of health (names differ in different places) and see what is or is not done in your own locality

you might also see if there’s a system for getting mailings and updates so that you can feel better informed.  I am on my state’s daily email update system, for example. 

 

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, Janeway said:

So basically, yesterday alone, I had to have come in contact with over 1000 people. I went to a few stores, I walked down Main Street. I took a train, and went to the grocery, and played at the park. Two days earlier, I went to a park and hiked all over it and other people were there. On Saturday, I went to a variety of stores. Every day, I pretty much go somewhere and I go walking. Because of the inventory at stores, I frequently go to 2-3 stores on a day just for grocery type items and other such things. So if I test positive, someone is going to track my phone and track everyone else's phones and data and everything and find out the thousands of people I have been on contact with and demand they quarantine, and then the thousands of people they have been in contact with, and so on? Meanwhile, our economy collapses, people with diabetes are doing worse (which is what makes people actually die from this virus, uncontrolled blood sugar is the top precursor for death with Covid), children are committing suicide and of those who don't, some are being abused, depressed, and most are gaining weight....and in the end, my county has a 0.002% death rate from Covid. At this point, the shut down appears to be more of a social experiment than science.  I have been reading over studies and articles, including from CNN and WHO and I think that continuing the shutdown at this point is a very bad thing. I accept that we likely will have to re-shutdown next flu season, but I think unless we recover our economy, our people, and we allow a number of people to get Covid (considering a minimum of 80% have no symptoms and therefore, won't know they have it unless there is general testing anyway), then in the fall, with very few people having antibodies and the flu season coming up, and cold weather and everything, Covid will be even more deadly. 

What in the world are you talking about?  Contact tracers ask for those people you had close contact with.  If you are interested in understanding this process you can look up how ‘close contact’ is defined, and it is not possible to have close contact with 1000 people in one day.  And what the what about tracking your phone.  Where are you getting the idea they are going to track your phone? And how would that identify the 1000 people you saw on any given day? 

[Scarlett]

22 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Are other states not doing this? My state is plastering the number contact tracing calls come, and what they will and will not ask, from everywhere so people know which # is legit, and also know what info will not ever be asked for (like no SSN or medical insurance info will be asked for). 

Exactly.  As always we have to be alert to scams.  But if you educate yourself about what will actually be asked it would be difficult to fall for a scam.  A scammer has NOTHING to gain and no way to profit by asking the actual questions that contact tracers will ask.  
 

[Pen]

40 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Are other states not doing this? My state is plastering the number contact tracing calls come, and what they will and will not ask, from everywhere so people know which # is legit, and also know what info will not ever be asked for (like no SSN or medical insurance info will be asked for). 

 

No.  Different places are handling things differently.  

My state it is basically by county (in cooperation with state and federal).  And I have not thus far seen a phone number to expect a call from posted anywhere.

 

Actually, I think it is only now getting ramped up in process for “opening”  — current explanation:

“Contact tracing involves identifying and reaching out to the contacts of someone who tests positive for an infectious disease. Contacts are then tested and, for those who test positive, the process is then repeated for their contacts, and so on, until the chain of transmission is interrupted. In the case of COVID-19, until recently only very sick people meeting strict criteria were referred for testing. As testing becomes more widely available, Public Health will implement more extensive contact tracing, which is expected to include isolation and quarantine of known and suspected cases. In some cases, people who are isolated or quarantined at home will need support and resources, such as groceries, laundry, and prescription medicines. Those who are unhoused or unable to return to their homes will additionally need accommodation. It is not yet clear how widespread infection is in Xxxxx, therefore, it is difficult to estimate the resources that will be needed locally.

Xxxxxx  plan includes six-person contact tracing teams led by a nurse or Disease Investigation Specialist (DIS) who conducts the initial case investigation. Teams also include four contact tracers and two community service workers who provide support to those in isolation. Three teams share an epidemiologist and supervisor. The number of teams needed depends on the number of positive test results, the concentration of contacts, and the supports needed for isolation. ...”

 

 

After our first confirmed case this was the explanation about contact tracing: 

 

“On its face, a term like contact tracing might read like something ominous. But in reality, the team at Xxxxx  Public Health is tracking solely this: who was a person infected with COVID-19 around and who is at risk for contracting the illness. '

"All of the conversations we have with them is not only HIPAA protected but because of the work that we do is even more protected than that," Xxxxx said. "So the data that we keep in cooperation with the Xxxxxxxx  is highly sensitive."

Xxxxxxxx, who is the county's communicable disease supervisor, said that the investigations are more information gathering than anything authoritative.

"I think so many times individuals think contact investigation means we have the ability to quarantine or isolate someone," Xxxxxxx said. "That's typically not a tactic that we use."

And the hope is that the information gathering empowers those to self trace or be more open to talk with the public health.

"Our tactics are to inform people that they may have been exposed to an illness," said Xxxxxxx. "Educate them on how they can prevent that and give them steps to do. Usually call us back if they develop symptoms so we can then direct you on how to best protect your health and the health of your community."   “

 

Edited May 11, 2020 by Pen

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

So basically, yesterday alone, I had to have come in contact with over 1000 people. I went to a few stores, I walked down Main Street. I took a train, and went to the grocery, and played at the park. Two days earlier, I went to a park and hiked all over it and other people were there. On Saturday, I went to a variety of stores. Every day, I pretty much go somewhere and I go walking. Because of the inventory at stores, I frequently go to 2-3 stores on a day just for grocery type items and other such things. So if I test positive, someone is going to track my phone and track everyone else's phones and data and everything and find out the thousands of people I have been on contact with and demand they quarantine, and then the thousands of people they have been in contact with, and so on? Meanwhile, our economy collapses, people with diabetes are doing worse (which is what makes people actually die from this virus, uncontrolled blood sugar is the top precursor for death with Covid), children are committing suicide and of those who don't, some are being abused, depressed, and most are gaining weight....and in the end, my county has a 0.002% death rate from Covid. At this point, the shut down appears to be more of a social experiment than science.  I have been reading over studies and articles, including from CNN and WHO and I think that continuing the shutdown at this point is a very bad thing. I accept that we likely will have to re-shutdown next flu season, but I think unless we recover our economy, our people, and we allow a number of people to get Covid (considering a minimum of 80% have no symptoms and therefore, won't know they have it unless there is general testing anyway), then in the fall, with very few people having antibodies and the flu season coming up, and cold weather and everything, Covid will be even more deadly. 

 

I have no way to know how many people you have daily close contact with nor rates for your county—I’ll accept those as accurate, though I must say that I am taken aback to hear you have close contacts with over 1000 people daily even though you apparently are not an “essential services” worker. 

 

But how did you decide that a minimum of 80% of cases have no symptoms? 

And why are people with diabetes in your area doing worse? 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

During the peak, COVID-19 was by far the leading cause of death in NYC. That is never true of the flu.

Are you in NYC? As @Janeway is pointing out, the rest of the country was not NYC, and frankly to most of the country what they did in NYC that shot their rates so high is not well respected. Also the rest of the country (for the most part) is not running a metro, which is now known to have been a factor. So it doesn't make sense that the solution should be the same for the entire country and it doesn't make sense to conclude how things will go down in our state based on the OBVIOUS INCOMPETENCE in another state. 

[Valley Girl]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Are other states not doing this? My state is plastering the number contact tracing calls come, and what they will and will not ask, from everywhere so people know which # is legit, and also know what info will not ever be asked for (like no SSN or medical insurance info will be asked for). 

That's great.  It doesn't mean that everyone single person is going to know or remember that information. (The vast majority likely will or will know where to look for it.) But unless the agency doing the calling can somehow prevent those phone numbers from being spoofed, I'm still going to be wary. I've dealt with way too many scam calls over the years. Sorry, that's just how it is. Again, I'd provide the information, just not at the point of the call. I would initiate follow-up contact with the agency and provide it. Your mileage may vary.

[Pen]

14 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

No one is keeping it a secret. All I want is a person who is in the medical field to ask the question. I would absolutely be ok with giving it to a doctor, not only my doctor. I don't know why that is such a problem. Asking for guidelines on who will ask the question, what we will answer is not unreasonable at all to me. Why is asking questions looked upon with so much suspicion ? I don't understand. 

 

While I don’t know what phone number a call in my state would come from, I do know that the primary contact is supposed to be from a nurse.

 

 I urge you to find out the situation for your own state.

 

Do ask questions.

 

[EmseB]

52 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

"They" didn't do much in NYC other than follow CDC guidelines, which meant that only people coming in from China (oh, and other parts of Asia eventually, I think) were being tested, and the state was not allowed to test in its state lab until March. If they had been allowed to test, then perhaps they could own this crisis. As is, they can't, because they wanted to test and weren't allowed. If you're saying they needed to shut down as soon as they found a single case... yes, as it turns out, that would have been a good idea! But pretty much no one else did that, either. 

We don't know if the subway was a huge factor, actually. The most subway-dense borough is, in fact, the least affected borough in NYC. If you look at the neighborhoods that are most affected around here, it's the immigrant areas with more multigenerational households more than anything. So it's not clear that the factors that affect us won't affect others.  

I think this is dangerous, ostrich-style thinking. At this point, rural outbreaks are proceeding faster than urban ones. I wouldn't place my bet on "it can't happen here" just yet. I see no reason for that kind of optimism. Especially if you're committed to not contact tracing and keeping the outbreaks contained. 

The study I saw said that the outer boroughs were more affected precisely because the people there had to spend more time on the subway to get into the city. So, yeah, if you already live where the subway converges you can...spend less time on the subway and be less likely to be infected. 

Add to that the policy of mandating covid positive people be put into nursing homes.

Add to that public officials in NY encouraging public gatherings way late in the game and being seen going to the gym and telling everyone else to shove it?

Add to that the fact that 60-something percent of strains across the country are being sequenced as having come from NY?

Perception outside of NY is...not good. And it is possible to be horrified and extremely sad about the death toll in NY and also say that officials there screwed up mightily despite having good "tone" at their press conferences. It wasn't just about testing and it still isn't. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by EmseB

[MistyMountain]

Contact tracing is what allows businesses to open while still keeping things under control. It is not only China doing it. It has worked in any place that has done it. When we first became aware of the virus and it’s spread we did not have enough testing and the ability to contact trace and we were starting to get exponential spread. We had to many cases at that point for it to be effective so we had to take the step we did to hammer down the cases to prepare hospitals with PPE and to get enough testing.

If we open things back up before there is an ability to test more or find out contacts then we can get right back to exponential spread. The measures did flatten the curve.

NYC has the worse outbreak but other places certainly can get bad too. They got hit early and were one of the latest to take measures. Europe is in worse shape because they had less warning then us. There are places in the US besides NYC that have outbreaks now where hospitals are being strained and there are a lot of cases. There are plenty of places that do not have the right parameters to start opening back up and very few have enough testing being done.

Some places did not get hit as hard and are in good shape overall but if things just open suddenly and go back to normal without the ability to test it can get hit again. They are keeping track of if cases are going up, if enough testing is being done and what the hospitals are doing well. Following the guidelines of slowly allowing more things to open as parameters look good allows it to be done safely.

The countries  with good contact tracing are doing the best overall at keeping cases down while allowing businesses to be open. 

 

 

 

[Storygirl]

57 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

It's possible that it's because of the subway. Is there an actual study? 

The nursing home stats in NY are, assuming they are correct, a smaller share of the deaths than in lots of other places: 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html

I agree it was a bad policy, by the way. They had good nursing home policies, too, but that wasn't one of them. 

They didn't encourage public gatherings "way late in the game." They encouraged them two weeks after they found a case. And yes, IN HINDSIGHT, that turned out to be late in the game, and if I ever vote (not a US citizen currently), I'm not voting for de Blasio. But again, no state was discouraging gatherings 2 weeks after their first case. 

Yes, of course most of the strains came from NY, because that's the place where the virus was allowed to spread without any limitation whatsoever in February, and it's a highly mobile place! This would have been true even if they had instituted a strict shutdown the very first day a case was found. 

If you look at the COVID tracking site, there were 200 deaths by March 25th. Now, remember, it takes about 3-4 weeks from exposure to death on average. That means that most of those were people who got infected before NY knew it had a single case.  And given the IFR, there were probably 20,000 infected people in NY at that moment. That's... an outbreak that's already out of control. 

The question is, what should NY have done? I agree that de Blasio shouldn't have gone to the gym. I agree that they should have shut down schools a week earlier. I agree that they shouldn't have sent COVID-positive cases into nursing home. The question is how much of a difference that would have made. 

The other question is, practically speaking... what are you going to do to make sure to make sure you don't become NY? Are you feeling absolutely confident that, because you don't have public transit, you won't ever have 20% of the population infected? Because that is the thing pushing up the NY numbers -- the fact that a lot of people are infected, and the IFR isn't looking as low as one might like. 

The interesting thing is to look forward, not backwards. And personally, when I look forward, I'm really grateful for the idea of contact tracing and the fact that NYC will be providing people places to quarantine. That is the thing that makes me feel safer moving forward... that, and the fact that the transmission rate will be automatically cut by the fifth of the people who already have had the virus! But what is it that is making you feel safe, if you don't like the idea of contact tracing? 

About the sentence in red..... Ohio's first recorded case was on March 9. Governor DeWine announced on March 12 that gatherings would be restricted to 100 people or less. And he canceled the Arnold Classic sports event on March 3 --  even before our first case.

Gov. DeWine was one of the first, if not the first, to issue such orders, so Ohio was ahead of the pack and does not represent what was happening nationally. But still, your statement in red is not completely true.

I have no interest in debating what could have been done better in NYC, but I will say that we were watching news reports about things still being open there, when our state was already shut down, so that influences the opinions of non New Yorkers. What happened before cannot be changed, but other places can learn from what happened in NY. I do find it worrisome that people are not realizing that what happened there could happen elsewhere, if we are not cautious.

[MistyMountain]

15 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

The measures have stopped spread in much of the country. Most places have only a few percent of the population infected, which means that we're exactly where we were in March. All we've done is hit the "pause" button. If it turns out that we did nothing except pause things, we're going to have exactly the same curve now as we would have in March. The point of pausing things is to figure out what to do when you hit "play" again... and yes, I agree with you, contact tracing is part of that. 

Yes I agree. Contact tracing and testing is one piece of it. The other is to look at hospital capacity to handle cases and how cases are rising. They do have good guidelines and info on the what each place looks out there and when they can take the first steps slowly two weeks at a time as numbers continue to look good.  Unfortunately not everywhere is following the guidelines and some are taking steps before all the criteria is in place which can lead us right back to where we were in March. 

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, MistyMountain said:

Yes I agree. Contact tracing and testing is one piece of it. The other is to look at hospital capacity to handle cases and how cases are rising. They do have good guidelines and info on the what each place looks out there and when they can take the first steps slowly two weeks at a time as numbers continue to look good.  Unfortunately not everywhere is following the guidelines and some are taking steps before all the criteria is in place which can lead us right back to where we were in March. 

 

I basically agree, but I think a minimum of 3 week increments between stages are needed probably 4.

It takes awhile to see the results of changed behavior— probably a 2 week or so lag time to significantly see a difference, and on a lot of graphs I have seen it is more like 4 weeks to see a difference in the decline after shut downs direction. 

I think until we know for sure that surge would manifest more quickly a similar 3-4 weeks should be given to evaluate effects of opening stages. 

 

And it will certainly be interesting to see what happens in places that are opening before taking guideline steps.  

I am glad my state isn’t seeming to be one of those.

 

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, square_25 said:

 

It's possible that it's because of the subway. Is there an actual study? 

The nursing home stats in NY are, assuming they are correct, a smaller share of the deaths than in lots of other places: 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/09/us/coronavirus-cases-nursing-homes-us.html

I agree it was a bad policy, by the way. They had good nursing home policies, too, but that wasn't one of them. 

They didn't encourage public gatherings "way late in the game." They encouraged them two weeks after they found a case. And yes, IN HINDSIGHT, that turned out to be late in the game, and if I ever vote (not a US citizen currently), I'm not voting for de Blasio. But again, no state was discouraging gatherings 2 weeks after their first case. 

Yes, of course most of the strains came from NY, because that's the place where the virus was allowed to spread without any limitation whatsoever in February, and it's a highly mobile place! This would have been true even if they had instituted a strict shutdown the very first day a case was found. 

If you look at the COVID tracking site, there were 200 deaths by March 25th. Now, remember, it takes about 3-4 weeks from exposure to death on average. That means that most of those were people who got infected before NY knew it had a single case.  And given the IFR, there were probably 20,000 infected people in NY at that moment. That's... an outbreak that's already out of control. 

The question is, what should NY have done? I agree that de Blasio shouldn't have gone to the gym. I agree that they should have shut down schools a week earlier. I agree that they shouldn't have sent COVID-positive cases into nursing home. The question is how much of a difference that would have made. 

The other question is, practically speaking... what are you going to do to make sure to make sure you don't become NY? Are you feeling absolutely confident that, because you don't have public transit, you won't ever have 20% of the population infected? Because that is the thing pushing up the NY numbers -- the fact that a lot of people are infected, and the IFR isn't looking as low as one might like. 

The interesting thing is to look forward, not backwards. And personally, when I look forward, I'm really grateful for the idea of contact tracing and the fact that NYC will be providing people places to quarantine. That is the thing that makes me feel safer moving forward... that, and the fact that the transmission rate will be automatically cut by the fifth of the people who already have had the virus! But what is it that is making you feel safe, if you don't like the idea of contact tracing? 

I like the idea of contract tracing. I'm not sure where you got the idea I didn't, or that I feel "safe" wrt the virus, whatever that means.

One of the ways we ensure we do better going forward is by looking backward and seeing what did and didn't work. Cuomo was a pretty big failure on all objective measures, even accounting for federal and local failure.

This article outlines the why of examining all this (looking backward) after going into pretty good detail on the issues of nyc. 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I basically agree, but I think a minimum of 3 week increments between stages are needed probably 4.

It takes awhile to see the results of changed behavior— probably a 2 week or so lag time to significantly see a difference, and on a lot of graphs I have seen it is more like 4 weeks to see a difference in the decline after shut downs direction. 

I think until we know for sure that surge would manifest more quickly a similar 3-4 weeks should be given to evaluate effects of opening stages. 

 

And it will certainly be interesting to see what happens in places that are opening before taking guideline steps.  

I am glad my state isn’t seeming to be one of those.

 

Like Oklahoma where I live.  https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/    On this page if you scroll down just a bit, the first graph on the left shows a trend line.  A low point was April 24 before it began to rise again.  Guess when the governor opened beauty salons and such back up?  April 24th.  It is trending up again and I feel nearly sure there will be another big spike.  A friend who works at our local small town hospital told us that there were several more cases over the weekend.  

[vonfirmath]

18 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Again, what is the big secret about who you have had contact with? 

 

Lots of companies ask me for information about my friends.

I don't like spam so I don't reveal the contact information about my friends just because I'm asked as well.

 

[catz]

5 hours ago, Janeway said:

So basically, yesterday alone, I had to have come in contact with over 1000 people.

Different states may have different requirements. But from what I've seen in general, it needs to be someone you've had a minimum of 10-15 minutes of face to face contact within 6 feet.  Outdoor and passing interactions appear to be very low risk.  Especially in those who have good awareness about hand hygiene, etc.  Are any states talking about using phone tracing apps?  They aren't here.  They are talking old school tracing like they've done for years for other communicable diseases on a smaller scale.  

If you did all those things, it doesn't sound like you are very locked down at all where you are.

The thing is the public has to feel confident going out for the economy to start to recover.  If outbreaks are popping up uncontrolled all over the place, that isn't likely to happen.  We have resources for mental health and people should feel empowered to utilize them.  Someone with depression and anxiety is not going to be magically cured by being able to go to more stores.  And I say that as someone who has been treated for depression and anxiety.  Economic downturn in general does not fare well for mental health.  

There's actually some recent data that indicates had we all closed down 2 weeks sooner, we'd have 90% less deaths and be in a much better position economically with reopening.  

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Lots of companies ask me for information about my friends.

I don't like spam so I don't reveal the contact information about my friends just because I'm asked as well.

 

But we are not talking about lots of companies.  Or someone wanting names so they can try to sell our friends something.  We are talking about getting a call which is either 1) Someone from the health department asking you for the people you have been in contact with because you tested positive. If you get such a call and have not had a test then sure, it is probably a scam.  Or 2) Someone from the health department saying, 'hey someone you have been in close contact with tested positive.  We recommend you get tested, and watch for these serious symptoms and stay isolated until you get a negative result.

It is not some big scary thing.  

[Pen]

41 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Like Oklahoma where I live.  https://coronavirus.health.ok.gov/    On this page if you scroll down just a bit, the first graph on the left shows a trend line.  A low point was April 24 before it began to rise again.  Guess when the governor opened beauty salons and such back up?  April 24th.  It is trending up again and I feel nearly sure there will be another big spike.  A friend who works at our local small town hospital told us that there were several more cases over the weekend.  

 

Off topic, but speaking of hair salons has anyone heard recently from @aethylryth the Texan or however that’s spelled? 

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Off topic, but speaking of hair salons has anyone heard recently from @aethylryth the Texan or however that’s spelled? 

Hmmmm........sure haven't.  I hope all is ok.

[vonfirmath]

18 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But we are not talking about lots of companies.  Or someone wanting names so they can try to sell our friends something.  We are talking about getting a call which is either 1) Someone from the health department asking you for the people you have been in contact with because you tested positive. If you get such a call and have not had a test then sure, it is probably a scam.  Or 2) Someone from the health department saying, 'hey someone you have been in close contact with tested positive.  We recommend you get tested, and watch for these serious symptoms and stay isolated until you get a negative result.

It is not some big scary thing.  

 

The hard part is believing the person on the phone is actual a contact tracer and not a spam call trying to hone in one people's fear to get the information.

And I say that even with my husband on the list of potential state employees to do contact tracing.

 

[Pen]

I have not heard of anywhere in USA talking about required apps.

Some opt in possibilities may become available. 

And I think a small pilot test program of the NHS type model is being tested in NY.  Or somewhere in New England type area. 

 

[Scarlett]

3 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

The hard part is believing the person on the phone is actual a contact tracer and not a spam call trying to hone in one people's fear to get the information.

And I say that even with my husband on the list of potential state employees to do contact tracing.

 

It won't be hard to tell.  If you have had a test you will know it.  So you wont' be surprised to be getting a call.  And also, the information being asked.  Scammers want money,....they aren't really interested in who you saw in the last two days.

[EmseB]

11 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

The hard part is believing the person on the phone is actual a contact tracer and not a spam call trying to hone in one people's fear to get the information.

And I say that even with my husband on the list of potential state employees to do contact tracing.

 

But a contract tracer wants a name and poasibly a phone number. A contract tracer isn't going to ask for any information that they would be able to scam anyone with. No SSN, bank info, credit cards, whatever. They are asking for info that would have been readily available in the phone book in times gone by. If someone is asking for anything else, they aren't a contract tracer.

24 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Off topic, but speaking of hair salons has anyone heard recently from @aethylryth the Texan or however that’s spelled? 

She is fine, taking a forum break.

[Bootsie]

26 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Lots of companies ask me for information about my friends.

I don't like spam so I don't reveal the contact information about my friends just because I'm asked as well.

 

And, I may not be concerned about someone know when I was someplace and who was with me, but the other person may have some reason why they do not want people to know their whereabouts and that they were with me.  I do have friends internationally that have been involved in secret anti-government meetings that could have cost them their lives or resulted in significant harm to some of their family members.  I had a friend who was being stalked by a crazy person who went to all kinds of lengths of find out her comings and goings and to keep her phone number private.  

And it doesn't take such extreme cases for people to feel that their privacy is being invaded.  Switzerland was going to require restaurants that reopened to record a contact name and phone number for customers.  There was huge public outrage over it, and the requirement has been dropped.

[vonfirmath]

7 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

People can/could opt out of being listed in the phone book, though. 

My parents paid extra to not be listed in the phone book.