Contact Tracing jobs - Work from home

[Pen]

https://www.contrace.org/individuals-application

 

this company is apparently hiring 

 

I don’t know anything about it other than it was in an article 

[PeterPan]

And so for the lure of a buck people help our country turn into China.

[J-rap]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And so for the lure of a buck people help our country turn into China.

Why do you think it helps our country turn into China?  I know our state has set goals to provide enough daily tests and contact tracers in order to help open everything up again.   I like our governor...  I don't see him trying to turn our state into China.

[Scarlett]

Just now, J-rap said:

Why do you think it helps our country turn into China?  I know our state has set goals to provide enough daily tests and contact tracers in order to help open everything up again.   I like our governor...  I don't see him trying to turn our state into China.

I don't get that comment either.  I think a job as a contact tracer would be so interesting.  And helpful..

[Pen]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And so for the lure of a buck people help our country turn into China.

 

Hunh?

Afaik CDC and state Health Authorities mostly don’t have enough contact tracers to cope. 

How do you see this as turning into China?

 

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And so for the lure of a buck people help our country turn into China.

The whole point of contact tracing is to not turn into China but to mean you can open up again.  It works.  

[Pen]

Here is another. https://www.google.com/search?q=contact+tracing+jobs&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari#fpstate=tldetail&htidocid=tQpisRgoOHnUiwKeAAAAAA%3D%3D&htiq=contact tracing jobs&htivrt=jobs

unlike first that was in an article, this came up on a google search

[Pen]

@PeterPan for our area it is part of the required elements for opening up requirements below:

 

 

“In order to be approved and keep moving through the phases, Xxxxxxxxx County must be able to demonstrate and maintain seven key things:

 

1. Decreasing COVID-19 cases for at least 14 days

2. Sufficient personal protective equipment (PPE) for medical personnel and first responders

3. Sufficient contact tracing resources

4. Sufficient testing capacity to track the disease

5. Plans to scale up response in case of a second wave

6. A written blueprint for relaxation of restrictions

7. Support of our plan from Xxxxxxxxxxxx Health Authority “

[PeterPan]

Well I guarantee you there are going to be a lot of questions in our state about it. A quick google shows plenty of hits with major newspapers asking questions, pointing out the interest in using apps on your phone, on and on. So no, I would not assume our Republican governor has widespread support for this.

Also the articles I googled showed our counties are not, for the most part, maxed out and in fact are simply repositioning workers they already have in their departments to get it done. So to me this is another example of overmaking ventilators and trailers and all this other stuff they ramp up to spend our tax $$$ on that we end up not needing.

Remember the stupidity of it. A vast percentage of people are asymptomatic. So unless you force everyone to be tested to catch those who are asymptomatic, you cannot possibly trace/quarantine your way out of it. It's illogical. But it makes them feel like they're doing something and gives them a way to spend our tax $$$. They're going to pay these people $18 an our in our state but the school budgets are going to be SLASHED by 20%. 

But no, we can't question. Anything they say is right and good and we should shut up. The contact tracing will not catch enough to be useful, but it will waste millions at a time when we're running deficits for essential services. And there definitely are questions about where some local/state leaders will take this and whether it will violate privacy. They're walking right into it because they have the excuse. 

Right now we have our state legislature pushing back against things that are going on and the idea that one person is driving a lot of policy. There are valid reasons to question this. Our governor started off saying the disease was so widespread he needed massive action rapidly. Now it's so contained that you could "track" it? Hogwash. They'll do it and I doubt we're going to stop that, but our legislature needs to be pushing back for civil liberties protections and LIMITS on the power one unelected official has here.

[J-rap]

45 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well I guarantee you there are going to be a lot of questions in our state about it. A quick google shows plenty of hits with major newspapers asking questions, pointing out the interest in using apps on your phone, on and on. So no, I would not assume our Republican governor has widespread support for this.

Also the articles I googled showed our counties are not, for the most part, maxed out and in fact are simply repositioning workers they already have in their departments to get it done. So to me this is another example of overmaking ventilators and trailers and all this other stuff they ramp up to spend our tax $$$ on that we end up not needing.

Remember the stupidity of it. A vast percentage of people are asymptomatic. So unless you force everyone to be tested to catch those who are asymptomatic, you cannot possibly trace/quarantine your way out of it. It's illogical. But it makes them feel like they're doing something and gives them a way to spend our tax $$$. They're going to pay these people $18 an our in our state but the school budgets are going to be SLASHED by 20%. 

But no, we can't question. Anything they say is right and good and we should shut up. The contact tracing will not catch enough to be useful, but it will waste millions at a time when we're running deficits for essential services. And there definitely are questions about where some local/state leaders will take this and whether it will violate privacy. They're walking right into it because they have the excuse. 

Right now we have our state legislature pushing back against things that are going on and the idea that one person is driving a lot of policy. There are valid reasons to question this. Our governor started off saying the disease was so widespread he needed massive action rapidly. Now it's so contained that you could "track" it? Hogwash. They'll do it and I doubt we're going to stop that, but our legislature needs to be pushing back for civil liberties protections and LIMITS on the power one unelected official has here.

Just to address a few of your comments:  I can only speak for our state, but I know it's definitely not planning to use apps on phones...  It will be personal contact via phone calls.  

And yes, I believe it does hope to use state employees that are currently on furlough due to the pandemic, as much as possible, so it will be giving them jobs again...  I think that's a good thing.  

In the end, we may realize that it IS pointless -- yes.  Time will tell.  But I believe (again, I can only speak for our state) they truly are trying their best to act in the best interest of the people here.  

There are so many unknowns and we'll probably learn a lot of lessons from this.  But I do not think our country is trying to be like China, and I certainly don't think it's about making a buck.

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by J-rap

[Ausmumof3]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Well I guarantee you there are going to be a lot of questions in our state about it. A quick google shows plenty of hits with major newspapers asking questions, pointing out the interest in using apps on your phone, on and on. So no, I would not assume our Republican governor has widespread support for this.

Also the articles I googled showed our counties are not, for the most part, maxed out and in fact are simply repositioning workers they already have in their departments to get it done. So to me this is another example of overmaking ventilators and trailers and all this other stuff they ramp up to spend our tax $$$ on that we end up not needing.

Remember the stupidity of it. A vast percentage of people are asymptomatic. So unless you force everyone to be tested to catch those who are asymptomatic, you cannot possibly trace/quarantine your way out of it. It's illogical. But it makes them feel like they're doing something and gives them a way to spend our tax $$$. They're going to pay these people $18 an our in our state but the school budgets are going to be SLASHED by 20%. 

But no, we can't question. Anything they say is right and good and we should shut up. The contact tracing will not catch enough to be useful, but it will waste millions at a time when we're running deficits for essential services. And there definitely are questions about where some local/state leaders will take this and whether it will violate privacy. They're walking right into it because they have the excuse. 

Right now we have our state legislature pushing back against things that are going on and the idea that one person is driving a lot of policy. There are valid reasons to question this. Our governor started off saying the disease was so widespread he needed massive action rapidly. Now it's so contained that you could "track" it? Hogwash. They'll do it and I doubt we're going to stop that, but our legislature needs to be pushing back for civil liberties protections and LIMITS on the power one unelected official has here.

We have gone from almost 500 cases to two, with a combination of social distancing and contact tracing isolation and testing.  It’s no different to what is done with measles.

we do have an App.  I have downloaded it because I figure my phone traces everything anyway.  And if I wanted to conceal something (I don’t) I’d leave my phone at home.

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, J-rap said:

And yes, I believe it does hope to use state employees that are currently on furlough due to the pandemic, as much as possible, so it will be giving them jobs again...  I think that's a good thing.  

I agree that would be a logical, rational way to do it. Our state has major hiring goals, none of which has been necessary up to this point even though we've supposedly peaked. So in typical gov't fashion they're throwing money at it. It's almost like spaghetti at the wall, like let's throw a lot of things at the virus and hope something works. Even though there's zero logic to how you can "trace" a virus when you only have data on a small minority of the people who get it and would have to test/track massive massive numbers of people.

So is MANDATORY TESTING next? Think about it. How do you get enough testing to trace even asymptomatic people? Forced testing? They clearly have something in their heads about what they're trying to make happen, and it's either unnecessary, ineffective, or going to require compelling people to do things they wouldn't chose otherwise. Fully 50% of the people in our area completely reject the governor's mask recommendation. So to compel testing in order to track asymptomatic cases would require something I don't think there's support for. And yet what is your "tracking" worth if you're only tracking after the fact the sliver of people who were severe enough to get testing?? 

17 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I know it's definitely not planning to use apps on phones.

FB is already using your data to do tracking of movement, saying it's ok because they're releasing it as group/anonymous data. policies. It seems like right now anything gets rationalized in the name of stopping the virus, in a shoot now, ask the judge later fashion. 

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 It’s no different to what is done with measles.

we do have an App.  I have downloaded it because I figure my phone traces everything anyway.

And yes, our county health departments contact trace measles, etc. and already have staff to do that. I found articles showing stats where some counties repositioned workers and some counties never even got maxed out. So it's all a theoretical need. Or they're planning to implement something they haven't fully explained to the populace lest we, shudder, disagree. So you contact trace and quarantine the well with no antibody testing? So then everybody at the church, everybody at work, on and on??? At some point this is getting crazy. You can't even re-open the economy if you're doing mess like that. We don't trace the flu in that way even though the flu is also a virus with major public health impact, a vaccine, and thousands and thousands of deaths every year. We don't even try. But maybe we should just throw that in the app too, snort. Then they can mandate both vaccines together, mandate the app by the manufacturer with a no turn off button, and really just save us all from ourselves.

Our legislatures really need to be pushing back, asking questions.

[Ausmumof3]

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And yes, our county health departments contact trace measles, etc. and already have staff to do that. I found articles showing stats where some counties repositioned workers and some counties never even got maxed out. So it's all a theoretical need. Or they're planning to implement something they haven't fully explained to the populace lest we, shudder, disagree. So you contact trace and quarantine the well with no antibody testing? So then everybody at the church, everybody at work, on and on??? At some point this is getting crazy. You can't even re-open the economy if you're doing mess like that. We don't trace the flu in that way even though the flu is also a virus with major public health impact, a vaccine, and thousands and thousands of deaths every year. We don't even try. But maybe we should just throw that in the app too, snort. Then they can mandate both vaccines together, mandate the app by the manufacturer with a no turn off button, and really just save us all from ourselves.

Our legislatures really need to be pushing back, asking questions.

I assume they want to have contact tracing capability in place before reopening because reopening is going to cause an increase in contacts and therefore infections.  And it’s really not the flu.

if they open up and cases increase exponentially and you don’t have tracing in place you have no choice but go back to lockdown.  

Edited May 9, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I assume they want to have contact tracing capability in place before reopening because reopening is going to cause an increase in contacts and therefore infections.  And it’s really not the flu.

if they open up and cases increase exponentially and you don’t have tracing in place you have no choice but go back to lockdown.  

Well that's obviously the justification for the hiring. Thing is, we already have a lot of contacts going on. People are socializing in stores and there are large numbers of people, crowds much higher than would be out if people were actually at work. So for me, it's way more contact to go to the store now than it should be. Normally when I would go stores would be pretty quiet, and instead parking lots are packed all the time, no matter when I go. They have shifted how people congregate but they have not STOPPED contact, mercy. That's why all the data shows rates continue even with these stupid quarantines and stay at home orders.

No, our governor has already said that he gets that this is a pandora's box, that when he undoes the lockdown nobody will be willing to go back. They just won't be. Americans remember, guns, opinions, freedom. He's already admitting it, which is why he's taking the unlocking very slowly. Businesses are trying to be really civil about it. There was a restaurant that said he was going to open (much like that Texas salon) and the governor quietly worked it out. So he's having to balance issues here. But no, odds of a relock down are so, so so low for approval. We have meds and the public is not there.

Remember, our country already eats more deaths than this from the flu every year and no one demands lock downs. That's why there has been so much pushback, because the lethality data doesn't support the severe harm occurring to so many people. And now that we have meds shipping to hospitals and vaccines possibly available by the end of the year, public support for lockdowns just isn't there.

[Ausmumof3]

10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well that's obviously the justification for the hiring. Thing is, we already have a lot of contacts going on. People are socializing in stores and there are large numbers of people, crowds much higher than would be out if people were actually at work. So for me, it's way more contact to go to the store now than it should be. Normally when I would go stores would be pretty quiet, and instead parking lots are packed all the time, no matter when I go. They have shifted how people congregate but they have not STOPPED contact, mercy. That's why all the data shows rates continue even with these stupid quarantines and stay at home orders.

No, our governor has already said that he gets that this is a pandora's box, that when he undoes the lockdown nobody will be willing to go back. They just won't be. Americans remember, guns, opinions, freedom. He's already admitting it, which is why he's taking the unlocking very slowly. Businesses are trying to be really civil about it. There was a restaurant that said he was going to open (much like that Texas salon) and the governor quietly worked it out. So he's having to balance issues here. But no, odds of a relock down are so, so so low for approval. We have meds and the public is not there.

Remember, our country already eats more deaths than this from the flu every year and no one demands lock downs. That's why there has been so much pushback, because the lethality data doesn't support the severe harm occurring to so many people. And now that we have meds shipping to hospitals and vaccines possibly available by the end of the year, public support for lockdowns just isn't there.

Covid deaths have passed flu deaths haven’t they?  Worldometer shows 78,000 and I think the top estimate for flu from CDC was 64,000

knowing that people won’t go back into lockdown is an even better reason to expand trace and test capability.  However I disagree with you about lethality and I’m pretty sure there’s nothing I can say that will change your opinion about that and I’m kind of tired of arguing about it now.  The data is there for anyone who wants to do the research and it doesn’t really affect me here because thankfully most people are on board at this point.

[Farrar]

This is so pathetic. Americans actively want to spread this disease in the name of “freedom.“ No one cares if people are dying.

[J-rap]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Americans remember, guns, opinions, freedom. He's already admitting it, which is why he's taking the unlocking very slowly. Businesses are trying to be really civil about it. There was a restaurant that said he was going to open (much like that Texas salon) and the governor quietly worked it out. So he's having to balance issues here. But no, odds of a relock down are so, so so low for approval. We have meds and the public is not there.

Remember, our country already eats more deaths than this from the flu every year and no one demands lock downs. That's why there has been so much pushback, because the lethality data doesn't support the severe harm occurring to so many people. And now that we have meds shipping to hospitals and vaccines possibly available by the end of the year, public support for lockdowns just isn't there.

Well that's probably one main area where we differ.  Although freedom is certainly one of the most worthy of goals, we do need to ask ourselves, "Do I have the privilege of this freedom at the expense of someone else's life?"   

I'm pretty sure the death rate of Covid after just a few months is already higher than flu deaths after an entire year, and the Covid deaths are only as low as they are because of the lock-downs.  Without them, our cities could very well have been so overwhelmed with sick people that not only would death rates have been a lot higher and the medical system completely overwhelmed, but having so many people sick all at once (since no one had immunities toward this) instead of spread out over time could have completely disrupted our entire economic and social systems in ways that are unfathomable, even compared to our current lock-downs.

Maybe it depends on the area you live in too.  Our state (and the people here) overall has been pretty focused on doing what's best for the community at large, although of course that will get harder as time goes on.  Which is why -- going back to the original topic -- they're trying to think of ways for people to get back to business and life in general, sooner (by methods such as testing, contract tracing, etc.).

(Also, current meds are unreliable and there is no guarantee of a vaccine by the year's end.)

 

 

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, J-rap said:

Well that's probably one main area where we differ.

Aw shucks, only one? I'm pro Charmin, like really pro Charmin. Find me a brand that works as well and then we'll discuss. So it ain't that I don't love people, but I really love my Charmin. People need to go back to work and use tp there, so I can find it at the store and not have to use some off brand that rips and tears and leaves me grossed out. Any suggestions? 

[J-rap]

31 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Aw shucks, only one? I'm pro Charmin, like really pro Charmin. Find me a brand that works as well and then we'll discuss. So it ain't that I don't love people, but I really love my Charmin. People need to go back to work and use tp there, so I can find it at the store and not have to use some off brand that rips and tears and leaves me grossed out. Any suggestions? 

Aw, I'm sorry, I really didn't even mean that in a personal way, although I know it sounded like it.  I just meant it as more general philosophical musings...  I'm certain you would do what you thought was best for another person.

(On the other hand, I do prefer Scott TP, so...)

[Pen]

 

Quote

So is MANDATORY TESTING next? Think about it. How do you get enough testing to trace even asymptomatic people?

Afaik.

That is,   Ackkkk!!!!! I don’t know why the huge type and I don’t have a type size control that I know of on cellphone.   Sorry!   It’s like the giant emoji attack of awhile back. (Maybe it willhave fixed but right now is enormous!) 

As far as I know from my state, no idea about yours, the plan is that they will contact trace for known cases.

 People who are identified as having had contacts with a known case are supposed to do a 14 day quarantine. If symptoms show up in that time that is dealt with as a probable case. If no symptoms show up, it is possible that the person is an asymptomatic long infectious carrier. However, the hope is the person was either negative, or a case so mild as to have no discernible symptoms. And in either case it is hoped that they will not be contagious  at 14 days. Although there are outliers who remain contagious longer than 14 days, if I recall correctly, the 14 day period was chosen because 95% approximately of cases seem to show up within 14 days.

It is very true that this is not perfect, but it is hoped that it will be enough to keep a surge from overwhelming the medical system.

I think this is likely to work if people are quite cautious.

 

However, I think this will **not** work if people travel between hotspots and non-hotspots.

 I think it is also likely not to work if people travel between here and areas where the population tends **not** to be cautious (I guess your state is an example of that), unless the incautious areas have no cases. 

Also fire season remains an enormous pending problem

Quote

Forced testing? They clearly have something in their heads about what they're trying to make happen, and it's either unnecessary, ineffective, or going to require compelling people to do things they wouldn't chose otherwise. Fully 50% of the people in our area completely reject the governor's mask recommendation. So to compel testing in order to track asymptomatic cases would require something I don't think there's support for. And yet what is your "tracking" worth if you're only tracking after the fact the sliver of people who were severe enough to get testing?? 

FB is already using your data to do tracking of movement, saying it's ok because they're releasing it as group/anonymous data. policies. It seems like right now anything gets rationalized in the name of stopping the virus, in a shoot now, ask the judge later fashion. 

 

I hope not mine.  I don’t use FB.  Can they still use my data?

Apps for CV19 tracing that are being used in UK are opt in, afaik so are Australian ones. And ones being worked on by Google and Apple are also supposed to be opt in. 

Also, afaik, having and using a cellphone at all is not mandatory.  

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, J-rap said:

(On the other hand, I do prefer Scott TP, so...)

Yeah, my mother used to use that. Her dh protested and she finally caved. I should ask her what she's buying now. Maybe she found a compromise. 

10 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I'm certain you would do what you thought was best for another person.

I'm actually terribly concerned about the stats and what works, because my dad is in assisted living, one of the MOST DANGEROUS places to be right now. So I'm pulling up stats. He's not in my state btw, and I just have to tell myself everyday that they're doing their best and everything will be fine. 

Anyways, for our state, which was very forward on SIP and whatnot at a time when NY and CA were dancing in the streets comparatively and FL was having beach parties, fully 40% of our deaths (which, let's just say, are the biggest concern) are in nursing homes/assisted living. And then another big chunk, 20% was the last stat I could find, are in our prisons. So we agree schools are like prisons, schools have major headaches to sort through this. I think churches have major issues and I'm currently VERY PISSED at a member of my household who is trying to attend church services (probably with very little mediation since it's a small church) with people largely from a bigger city with higher rates. Very, very, very, very pissed. 

So it's pretty logical that they better be putting a major amount of their tracing, testing, etc. efforts into protecting the most vulnerable, not to tracking every single person in our state, which is logicstically unreasonable. 

I don't advocate stupidity in either direction. People not going to work will not keep my father safe, and it will endanger their own children. Poverty kills, unemployment kills, and suicide due to mental health issues kills. There's a lot more harm here coming. We live in an area with 60% of the children below the poverty level. I talk with teachers from the ps trying to work with these kids, and they're saying implementation at home is a total crapshoot, 50/50. What about those kids? So we shut down everything, spend millions tracking asymptomatic people, but we cut the budget to educate our future citizens??? 

There has got to be some sanity to this. 

How about we take these $18-20 an hour data trackers, presumably all of whom can read, and turn them into tutors for these children who are not getting their educations right now. Let's figure out how parents can go back to work when they have no school open to care for the kids. Let's take that money and get the rapid testing into our nursing homes so our loved ones are safe. There are actual things we could do.

[Ausmumof3]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Afaik.

That is,   Ackkkk!!!!! I don’t know why the huge type and I don’t have a type size control that I know of on cellphone.   Sorry!   It’s like the giant emoji attack of awhile back. (Maybe it willhave fixed but right now is enormous!) 

As far as I know from my state, no idea about yours, the plan is that they will contact trace for known cases.

 People who are identified as having had contacts with a known case are supposed to do a 14 day quarantine. If symptoms show up in that time that is dealt with as a probable case. If no symptoms show up, it is possible that the person is an asymptomatic long infectious carrier. However, the hope is the person was either negative, or a case so mild as to have no discernible symptoms. And in either case it is hoped that they will not be contagious  at 14 days. Although there are outliers who remain contagious longer than 14 days, if I recall correctly, the 14 day period was chosen because 95% approximately of cases seem to show up within 14 days.

It is very true that this is not perfect, but it is hoped that it will be enough to keep a surge from overwhelming the medical system.

I think this is likely to work if people are quite cautious.

 

However, I think this will **not** work if people travel between hotspots and non-hotspots.

 I think it is also likely not to work if people travel between here and areas where the population tends **not** to be cautious (I guess your state is an example of that), unless the incautious areas have no cases. 

Also fire season remains an enormous pending problem

 

I hope not mine.  I don’t use FB.  Can they still use my data?

Apps for CV19 tracing that are being used in UK are opt in, afaik so are Australian ones. And ones being worked on by Google and Apple are also supposed to be opt in. 

Also, afaik, having and using a cellphone at all is not mandatory.  

 

Yes the Aus app is opt in.  Also even after you opt in if you get diagnosed you still have to give permission to the health dept to access the data.  And it’s legally not to be used for any other purpose other than Covid health related.

also as far as I understand (I may have got this wrong) it doesn’t actually track your movements or location directly.  What it does is tracks which other mobile phones that have the app your phone is close to and stores that information so if you have a case they get a call.  It’s helpful for situations where you’ve sat next to someone on a bus or in a hairdresser and you don’t know who they are. 

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, my mother used to use that. Her dh protested and she finally caved. I should ask her what she's buying now. Maybe she found a compromise. 

I'm actually terribly concerned about the stats and what works, because my dad is in assisted living, one of the MOST DANGEROUS places to be right now. So I'm pulling up stats. He's not in my state btw, and I just have to tell myself everyday that they're doing their best and everything will be fine. 

Anyways, for our state, which was very forward on SIP and whatnot at a time when NY and CA were dancing in the streets comparatively and FL was having beach parties, fully 40% of our deaths (which, let's just say, are the biggest concern) are in nursing homes/assisted living. And then another big chunk, 20% was the last stat I could find, are in our prisons. So we agree schools are like prisons, schools have major headaches to sort through this. I think churches have major issues and I'm currently VERY PISSED at a member of my household who is trying to attend church services (probably with very little mediation since it's a small church) with people largely from a bigger city with higher rates. Very, very, very, very pissed. 

So it's pretty logical that they better be putting a major amount of their tracing, testing, etc. efforts into protecting the most vulnerable, not to tracking every single person in our state, which is logicstically unreasonable. 

I don't advocate stupidity in either direction. People not going to work will not keep my father safe, and it will endanger their own children. Poverty kills, unemployment kills, and suicide due to mental health issues kills. There's a lot more harm here coming. We live in an area with 60% of the children below the poverty level. I talk with teachers from the ps trying to work with these kids, and they're saying implementation at home is a total crapshoot, 50/50. What about those kids? So we shut down everything, spend millions tracking asymptomatic people, but we cut the budget to educate our future citizens??? 

There has got to be some sanity to this. 

How about we take these $18-20 an hour data trackers, presumably all of whom can read, and turn them into tutors for these children who are not getting their educations right now. Let's figure out how parents can go back to work when they have no school open to care for the kids. Let's take that money and get the rapid testing into our nursing homes so our loved ones are safe. There are actual things we could do.

Every ones situation is different.  I guess I was thinking of an analogy with the assisted living thing.  If someone spills a bit of paint in a couple of places on the city and the aged care workers drive to work they aren’t that likely to drive paint into work.  But if it’s spread literally everywhere in the city there’s a good chance it’s going to get in.  To me the best place to keep those people safe in those places is to keep the spread down everywhere.  I’m also concerned for my dad and hope we get through this.  
 

with the data trackers I don’t think they are tracking asymptomatic people they are hoping it’s going to be enough if they track contacts of known symptomatic cases and they self isolate for 14 days.  It won’t catch every case but it will catch enough.  Ideally if it works effectively it’s going to reduce the number of cases faster and get kids safe to go to schools and parents to work much faster.  It seems to have worked for South Korea, Singapore and other places to some degree and it seems to work for measles here.  But every place has its own features that makes it different.   Don’t know how it will work if you have a large undocumented population for example.

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, Pen said:

People who are identified as having had contacts with a known case are supposed to do a 14 day quarantine.

I don't *know* where people are on that in our state. Not what the gov't is trying to do. I'm just saying I don't have data. It's not something you can see. I'm *guessing* that public sentiment has shifted in our state. If people are finally getting to go back to work and then get told to quarantine again, I'm not sure that's going to go so well, not when the majority of people with this are asymptomatic. Don't be surprised if there's pushback. 

It just seems like they have things in mind they aren't telling us or that the people wouldn't agree to if they knew. 

13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Don’t know how it will work if you have a large undocumented population for example.

There's an interesting point.

13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

with the data trackers I don’t think they are tracking asymptomatic people they are hoping it’s going to be enough if they track contacts of known symptomatic cases and they self isolate for 14 days.

We don't have a high enough percentage of testing possibly to make that effective. So at that point they're selectively punishing people, saying you're unlucky and you get quarantined but this other person doesn't get quarantined, even though they're both infected. I agree if you had a massive percentage, it would be logical. They're talking about this. It's clear their little power eyes are gleaming with this thought that they could force massive testing and track every person. But if 50% don't opt to participate for whatever reason (which you can plan on), then where are you? So you're going to selectively quarantine, selectively punish for something that is asymptomatic for a high percentage of people.

13 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

If someone spills a bit of paint in a couple of places on the city and the aged care workers drive to work they aren’t that likely to drive paint into work.  But if it’s spread literally everywhere in the city there’s a good chance it’s going to get in.

That's clearly the model they've been operating, that they've got to stop it everywhere for everyone or no one is safe. And that's what people seem to be pushing back against. If it's asymptomatic for the majority, you protect the most vulnerable. And what, you're going to lock down every worker for assisted living and nursing homes and make them feel guilty?? Even the White House hasn't been able to keep it completely out. But the WH has 5 minute tests and tests the most near people daily. So how about we invest that $$ into testing our nursing home workers daily to improve the safety of our elderly? THAT we could actually do and net enough incoming to keep people safe.

Nuts, if they put rapid tests at the doors of facilities, then I could go see my dad. You realize our loved ones are settling for horses outside their windows because we can't go see them? 

It's like the pee analogy. Stop the peeing. It's not my job to protect my pants. It's your job to stop peeing. So we need rapid tests to ensure the workers coming in are safe and well. That would actually work.

And you know, I really respect there are different viewpoints. I respect that someone has to make a judgment call. I think they might do a lot of things that may or may not work sort of in the spaghetti at the wall mode, trying everything. But we're allowed to have debate about this and weighing through the values gets you at BETTER answers.

Edited May 9, 2020 by PeterPan

[Pen]

 

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Anyways, for our state, which was very forward on SIP and whatnot at a time when NY and CA were dancing in the streets comparatively and FL was having beach parties, fully 40% of our deaths (which, let's just say, are the biggest concern) are in nursing homes/assisted living. And then another big chunk, 20% was the last stat I could find, are in our prisons. So we agree schools are like prisons, schools have major headaches to sort through this. I think churches have major issues and I'm currently VERY PISSED at a member of my household who is trying to attend church services (probably with very little mediation since it's a small church) with people largely from a bigger city with higher rates. Very, very, very, very pissed. 

So it's pretty logical that they better be putting a major amount of their tracing, testing, etc. efforts into protecting the most vulnerable, not to tracking every single person in our state, which is logicstically unreasonable. 

It seems like you think your state is doing things very differently than mine.

Mine had been having the problem of almost no tests and only people connected with travel to from China yadayada could get them. 

After it got its Abbot Labs and other tests it started putting a priority to get testing for nursing home and residents and workers, medical staff, first responders, essential services workers like grocery workers (meat packers should certainly be added if they have not been).   

In addition, there was one university doing a local study to test random (supposedly) residents already underway, and a larger statewide study via another university to start following 100,000 also supposedly random residents, which begins Monday. These two studies may reveal some Asymptomatic carriers, but beyond that there is no plan to try to identify all Asymptomatic carriers (and I would be surprised if there were in other states unless they have extremely few cases.) 

Once nursing home etc residents and workers are tested, I would think that contact tracing and  App tracing would be a huge blessing to allow stop of spread into vulnerable residence facilities by allowing people to know more promptly if they have been exposed to a known infectious person. 

 

 

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't advocate stupidity in either direction. People not going to work will not keep my father safe, and it will endanger their own children. Poverty kills, unemployment kills, and suicide due to mental health issues kills. There's a lot more harm here coming. We live in an area with 60% of the children below the poverty level. I talk with teachers from the ps trying to work with these kids, and they're saying implementation at home is a total crapshoot, 50/50. What about those kids? So we shut down everything, spend millions tracking asymptomatic people, but we cut the budget to educate our future citizens??? 

There has got to be some sanity to this. 

How about we take these $18-20 an hour data trackers, presumably all of whom can read, and turn them into tutors for these children who are not getting their educations right now. Let's figure out how parents can go back to work when they have no school open to care for the kids.

Our local school is open to do child care for children of workers prioritized by space available going first to first responders and medical workers, then essential services like grocery workers, etc. 

Though the schooling is by packet or online. I don’t know how much tutoring is happening.

 I am certainly having a problem with my own kid doing his schoolwork currently, but all his regular teachers are available to help by phone, email, etc. 

 

13 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Let's take that money and get the rapid testing into our nursing homes so our loved ones are safe. There are actual things we could do.

 

All US Veterans Nursing Homes afaik have already completed testing.  

Our state certainly did put nursing homes as a first priority for extended testing as soon as that became available. I don’t know if it has been completed statewide. We don’t have a big population, but do have a big geography to cover. 

Are you certain that your state has not also prioritized nursing homes for testing?

 

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't *know* where people are on that in our state. Not what the gov't is trying to do. I'm just saying I don't have data. It's not something you can see. I'm *guessing* that public sentiment has shifted in our state. If people are finally getting to go back to work and then get told to quarantine again, I'm not sure that's going to go so well, not when the majority of people with this are asymptomatic. Don't be surprised if there's pushback. 

It just seems like they have things in mind they aren't telling us or that the people wouldn't agree to if they knew. 

There's an interesting point.

We don't have a high enough percentage of testing possibly to make that effective. So at that point they're selectively punishing people, saying you're unlucky and you get quarantined but this other person doesn't get quarantined, even though they're both infected. I agree if you had a massive percentage, it would be logical. They're talking about this. It's clear their little power eyes are gleaming with this thought that they could force massive testing and track every person. But if 50% don't opt to participate for whatever reason (which you can plan on), then where are you? So you're going to selectively quarantine, selectively punish for something that is asymptomatic for a high percentage of people.

That's clearly the model they've been operating, that they've got to stop it everywhere for everyone or no one is safe. And that's what people seem to be pushing back against. If it's asymptomatic for the majority, you protect the most vulnerable. And what, you're going to lock down every worker for assisted living and nursing homes and make them feel guilty?? Even the White House hasn't been able to keep it completely out. But the WH has 5 minute tests and tests the most near people daily. So how about we invest that $$ into testing our nursing home workers daily to improve the safety of our elderly? THAT we could actually do and net enough incoming to keep people safe.

Nuts, if they put rapid tests at the doors of facilities, then I could go see my dad. You realize our loved ones are settling for horses outside their windows because we can't go see them? 

It's like the pee analogy. Stop the peeing. It's not my job to protect my pants. It's your job to stop peeing. So we need rapid tests to ensure the workers coming in are safe and well. That would actually work.

And you know, I really respect there are different viewpoints. I respect that someone has to make a judgment call. I think they might do a lot of things that may or may not work sort of in the spaghetti at the wall mode, trying everything. But we're allowed to have debate about this and weighing through the values gets you at BETTER answers.

Yes there’s not much point doing track and trace if there’s not adequate testing for those with symptoms.  Getting testing available really is the first key.  Track and trace is what you do when you have that.  
 

I know they are increasing aged care worker testing here as well.  I’m not sure about daily though.  From what I understand the swab can be slightly uncomfortable and I can imagine if you were having it done daily you might end up with some soreness or irritation.  Plus there’s some increased risk just with everyone getting tested unless the PPE is really good and infection protocols are right.

I don’t really see being asked to quarantine or self isolate as punishment.  It’s not a case of - you’ve done something wrong it’s just unfortunate.  Here at least there are services available to help with food shopping etc if needed.  Again though if you have really widespread infection that might be not viable.  You really do need to be down to a certain level for test trace and isolate to work.  Lockdowns is one way to try to get back to that level but it seems like your state is at a point where they won’t tolerate more lockdowns (and 15pc unemployment is scary) so I’m not sure what else you can do.

edited to add the model of only protecting the most vulnerable was what UK began with if I understand correctly but they realised the death rates were going to be too high.  The Sweden guy, while still standing by his strategy, said they were surprised by the death rates because they had expected to be better able to prevent it getting into nursing homes.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Ausmumof3

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yes there’s not much point doing track and trace if there’s not adequate testing for those with symptoms.  Getting testing available really is the first key.  Track and trace is what you do when you have that.  
 

 

That is not entirely true. Historically tracing was used for illnesses before lab testing was widely available.  It is true that some illness like measles are more obvious to the naked eye. 

But some cases of CV19 are already clearly identifiable based on clinical features. 

For Australia with relatively few cases, you probably have enough tests available.

USA does not have enough tests available still to test everyone, but particularly going into summer when other similar illnesses become rare, symptoms should be much more useful identifiers. 

It is also possible that some tracing will pick up Asymptomatic Carriers especially if they are spreaders.  If multiple symptomatic people have a common contact for example.  This is rather how the UK businessman superspreader identified himself iirc.  He became aware that several places he had been all had cases. 

 

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I know they are increasing aged care worker testing here as well.  I’m not sure about daily though.  From what I understand the swab can be slightly uncomfortable and I can imagine if you were having it done daily you might end up with some soreness or irritation.  Plus there’s some increased risk just with everyone getting tested unless the PPE is really good and infection protocols are right.

I don’t really see being asked to quarantine or self isolate as punishment.

I agree.  And some forms of the swab test are more than just a little uncomfortable.  

Nor iirc are they the ones that can give 15 minute results.  

The blood tests otoh afaik are not as uncomfortable and can, some of them,  give 15 minute results, but iirc don’t show there has been infection till it has been long enough and serious enough to have antibodies.   So unfortunately, not helpful yet to effectively screen visitors to a nursing home. 

But maybe things could be worked out like visitation clean rooms, and washable PPE for both visitors and residents to wear during visits that would allow something like at least a monthly visit to start safely. 

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 It’s not a case of - you’ve done something wrong it’s just unfortunate.  Here at least there are services available to help with food shopping etc if needed.  

I think we are starting to get that too, but patchy availability.  Maybe it is actually patchy in Aus too, but you could be in a city where it is easy and not realize that it is not so available everywhere. 

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Again though if you have really widespread infection that might be not viable.  You really do need to be down to a certain level for test trace and isolate to work.  Lockdowns is one way to try to get back to that level but it seems like your state is at a point where they won’t tolerate more lockdowns (and 15pc unemployment is scary) so I’m not sure what else you can do.

 

Her state residents like many others:

At least be willing to try things like wearing masks that are made to try to give some protection—rather than refusing to do so at all, or using something that seems a deliberate mockery of the idea like a wispy handkerchief. 

To at least try to keep as much physical Distancing as possible...

 

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

edited to add the model of only protecting the most vulnerable was what UK began with if I understand correctly but they realised the death rates were going to be too high.  The Sweden guy, while still standing by his strategy, said they were surprised by the death rates because they had expected to be better able to prevent it getting into nursing homes.

 

Yes. 

[J-rap]

59 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, my mother used to use that. Her dh protested and she finally caved. I should ask her what she's buying now. Maybe she found a compromise. 

I'm actually terribly concerned about the stats and what works, because my dad is in assisted living, one of the MOST DANGEROUS places to be right now. So I'm pulling up stats. He's not in my state btw, and I just have to tell myself everyday that they're doing their best and everything will be fine. 

Anyways, for our state, which was very forward on SIP and whatnot at a time when NY and CA were dancing in the streets comparatively and FL was having beach parties, fully 40% of our deaths (which, let's just say, are the biggest concern) are in nursing homes/assisted living. And then another big chunk, 20% was the last stat I could find, are in our prisons. So we agree schools are like prisons, schools have major headaches to sort through this. I think churches have major issues and I'm currently VERY PISSED at a member of my household who is trying to attend church services (probably with very little mediation since it's a small church) with people largely from a bigger city with higher rates. Very, very, very, very pissed. 

So it's pretty logical that they better be putting a major amount of their tracing, testing, etc. efforts into protecting the most vulnerable, not to tracking every single person in our state, which is logicstically unreasonable. 

I don't advocate stupidity in either direction. People not going to work will not keep my father safe, and it will endanger their own children. Poverty kills, unemployment kills, and suicide due to mental health issues kills. There's a lot more harm here coming. We live in an area with 60% of the children below the poverty level. I talk with teachers from the ps trying to work with these kids, and they're saying implementation at home is a total crapshoot, 50/50. What about those kids? So we shut down everything, spend millions tracking asymptomatic people, but we cut the budget to educate our future citizens??? 

There has got to be some sanity to this. 

How about we take these $18-20 an hour data trackers, presumably all of whom can read, and turn them into tutors for these children who are not getting their educations right now. Let's figure out how parents can go back to work when they have no school open to care for the kids. Let's take that money and get the rapid testing into our nursing homes so our loved ones are safe. There are actual things we could do.

I do think the most difficult thing to open up will be assisted living/long-term care facilities.  I don't know how they will do that.  I can see schools open up much more easily because children aren't nearly as vulnerable.  

My mother is in a long-term care facility after a massive stroke 10 months ago at age 91.  It has kicked in severe dementia (up until then, she was still very sharp), so my father (92 and still independent) sold their home and moved into an independent senior living apartment on the same grounds (but different buildings) in January so that he could spend his days with her.  He'd spend every day just sitting with her and holding her hand.  Now he can't see her at all, because her building is of course on a strict lock-down.  We know it had to be done...  It's a very nice private facility and they take every precaution, but even then they currently have 10 cases of Covid and each patient is in their own room.

I know my parents would rather risk their lives and be together every day for their last days.  I'm pretty sure at least one of them will succumb to Covid eventually.  But their being together would risk others' lives who don't feel the same way, naturally.  So does that mean my dad will probably not see her again or hold her hand again for the rest of his life?  This could go on (with long-term care facilities) for two years!  I don't know what the answer is.  It is devastating in so many ways.

[Pen]

 

46 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's clearly the model they've been operating, that they've got to stop it everywhere for everyone or no one is safe. And that's what people seem to be pushing back against. If it's asymptomatic for the majority, you protect the most vulnerable. And what, you're going to lock down every worker for assisted living and nursing homes and make them feel guilty?? Even the White House hasn't been able to keep it completely out. But the WH has 5 minute tests and tests the most near people daily. So how about we invest that $$ into testing our nursing home workers daily to improve the safety of our elderly? THAT we could actually do and net enough incoming to keep people safe.

Nuts, if they put rapid tests at the doors of facilities, then I could go see my dad. You realize our loved ones are settling for horses outside their windows because we can't go see them? 

It's like the pee analogy. Stop the peeing. It's not my job to protect my pants. It's your job to stop peeing. So we need rapid tests to ensure the workers coming in are safe and well. That would actually work.

 

I think more understanding of the tests would be very helpful for you.  I think you don’t understand what they can and cannot do right now: 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-tests-could-potentially-be-used-for-the-screening-diagnosis-and-monitoring-of-covid-19-and-what-are-their-advantages-and-disadvantages/

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

Are you certain that your state has not also prioritized nursing homes for testing?

Yes they're testing, but it's the regular multiday wait testing. I'm saying they could get rapid testing, the 5 minute kind, and screen every worker coming in every day. That would enable them to screen visitors, and then people could visit their loved ones. Right now, we're completely unable to visit my dad. He has lived in conditions much like prison (very small apartment with a bed/recliner/kitchenette), only allowed to leave once a day for a walk around the building and once a week they go out for a shared church service for all faiths where everyone sits x feet apart and he wears masks.  Very few of us are experiencing the level of restrictions and confinement that able bodied people in assisted living are enduring. Rapid testing would allow him to go to appointments, shop, etc. as he used to and us to visit him. Instead, he is confined indefinitely, until his state decides to lift the currently necessary restrictions. 

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

Now he can't see her at all, because her building is of course on a strict lock-down.

Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. That's doubly sad. But yes, this is the hard stuff. I thought about bringing my dad here when this started, because we literally can't handle his level of disability. It's why he lives there. And the indefiniteness of it, that we don't know how long this is going on. All I can say is my dad has been very brave and it sounds like your family has been too. 

3 hours ago, J-rap said:

This could go on (with long-term care facilities) for two years!

Oh no, are you for real? I've tried not to think that hard. I've told myself summer and things tidy up. Ugh. Surely they won't go that long. There just is not a way to safeguard our elders if we can't be with them. Now our place has been awesome in setting up skype/facetime, so we can actually see him and ensure he's fine. 

Yeah, I don't know what the plan is. We've been taking it one step at a time. We usually bring in him a few times a year for a nice visit. I used to take him on traveling trips, things he couldn't do independently. I don't see how we could move him out. He needs care and he's settled. Seems to me they HAVE to get this testing figured out till they have a rapid test that is affordable that they can just screen, boom. 

Ok, dumb side question. Why do we not do this for the flu? How often is someone asymptomatic with the flu vs. this bug? I'm trying to google this and seeing different numbers, but basically they're all way lower than the covid asymptomatic rates. So nursing homes and businesses were just saying stay home if you have symptoms and it worked for the flu, doesn't work for this. So I don't see how they get access back without rapid testing.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

I think more understanding of the tests would be very helpful for you.  I think you don’t understand what they can and cannot do right now: 

https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/what-tests-could-potentially-be-used-for-the-screening-diagnosis-and-monitoring-of-covid-19-and-what-are-their-advantages-and-disadvantages/

 

There's a table on there showing exactly what I'm saying. They have multiple tests where you can do it in say 2 hours and at least one that is in minutes. They're testing people around the president every day, so doubtless they have rapid tests. And they're banging out new ones all the time. 

I'm not crazy. I've been watching interviews with health experts saying that's where it's going, that they're going to test every person walking into work in certain environments. And I'm just saying this would help our seniors, get us access to our parents, and be a game changer. I just don't see a replacement for it. It's too easy to be asymptomatic and show up unwittingly. 

And frankly, they were offering and trying to set up "visits" where we would be outside, couldn't touch, had to sit 6 feet apart, possibly with masks. Think about that. How does that make your loved ones feel? No, we NEED rapid testing. No amount of tracking/tracing solves that.

[Liz CA]

Maybe I am in the wrong thread...but I wonder if anyone really knows if reliable (!) antibody testing exists and do we know yet if antibodies are protective for this virus?

I could spend hours on google...but you guys are faster and right now in my field we are working our tail feathers off - schedule is between full and bonkers. So when I have a day off, I go to the one place that provides rapid answers most of the time.  😊

Edited May 9, 2020 by Liz CA

[J-rap]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Yes they're testing, but it's the regular multiday wait testing. I'm saying they could get rapid testing, the 5 minute kind, and screen every worker coming in every day. That would enable them to screen visitors, and then people could visit their loved ones. Right now, we're completely unable to visit my dad. He has lived in conditions much like prison (very small apartment with a bed/recliner/kitchenette), only allowed to leave once a day for a walk around the building and once a week they go out for a shared church service for all faiths where everyone sits x feet apart and he wears masks.  Very few of us are experiencing the level of restrictions and confinement that able bodied people in assisted living are enduring. Rapid testing would allow him to go to appointments, shop, etc. as he used to and us to visit him. Instead, he is confined indefinitely, until his state decides to lift the currently necessary restrictions. 

Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. That's doubly sad. But yes, this is the hard stuff. I thought about bringing my dad here when this started, because we literally can't handle his level of disability. It's why he lives there. And the indefiniteness of it, that we don't know how long this is going on. All I can say is my dad has been very brave and it sounds like your family has been too. 

Oh no, are you for real? I've tried not to think that hard. I've told myself summer and things tidy up. Ugh. Surely they won't go that long. There just is not a way to safeguard our elders if we can't be with them. Now our place has been awesome in setting up skype/facetime, so we can actually see him and ensure he's fine. 

Yeah, I don't know what the plan is. We've been taking it one step at a time. We usually bring in him a few times a year for a nice visit. I used to take him on traveling trips, things he couldn't do independently. I don't see how we could move him out. He needs care and he's settled. Seems to me they HAVE to get this testing figured out till they have a rapid test that is affordable that they can just screen, boom. 

Ok, dumb side question. Why do we not do this for the flu? How often is someone asymptomatic with the flu vs. this bug? I'm trying to google this and seeing different numbers, but basically they're all way lower than the covid asymptomatic rates. So nursing homes and businesses were just saying stay home if you have symptoms and it worked for the flu, doesn't work for this. So I don't see how they get access back without rapid testing.

Well for one thing, there are yearly vaccines for the flu, and the spread isn't as great because so many people do get the vaccine, or have some immunity.  Hospitals have been able to keep up with flu hospitalizations.  And I think doctors mostly understand the flu and know how to treat it.  I don't know about asymptomatic flu...  Does that happen?

Yeah, we tried to talk my dad into coming to live with us throughout this lock-down period, and he's well enough that it would have worked out fine.  But, he wanted to be physically close to my mother -- literally right across a parking lot -- even if he can't see her.  (We live about 20 minutes away.)

[PeterPan]

50 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I don't know about asymptomatic flu...  Does that happen?

Googlefu is saying 10-30%. So a lot less, that's for sure. 

[Pen]

3 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Yes they're testing, but it's the regular multiday wait testing. I'm saying they could get rapid testing, the 5 minute kind, and screen every worker coming in every day.

We don’t have that many tests afaik to do that for all the many nursing homes in the country.   Our whole state for example has only 15 generally deployed machines.  And a few more in university and private labs.  

A rapid test device for every nursing home would be truly staggering—and because of the delay between infection and antibodies not particularly helpful in the way you wish for. 

And the rapid kind is, afaik, the antibody kind.  It takes ~ ____  (several) days or longer avg to develop antibodies. 

 

 

Quote

That would enable them to screen visitors, and then people could visit their loved ones.

 

No it would not.  Read about the various tests and their limitations. 

This is not a conspiracy to deprive you and your family of something you want.  What you imagine as possible simply is not currently feasible. 

Not generally.  Sort of like travel to the moon. Maybe it can be done, rarely, with much difficulty.  But it isn’t widely and readily available to go to the moon.  5 minute test screening that will detect current antigens reliably is not currently any more generally available than going to the moon.  

 

Quote

Right now, we're completely unable to visit my dad. He has lived in conditions much like prison (very small apartment with a bed/recliner/kitchenette), only allowed to leave once a day for a walk around the building and once a week they go out for a shared church service for all faiths where everyone sits x feet apart and he wears masks.  

I am sorry that he and you—and many others—are going through what you are going through. 

Quote

Very few of us are experiencing the level of restrictions and confinement that able bodied people in assisted living are enduring. Rapid testing would allow him to go to appointments, shop, etc. as he used to and us to visit him. Instead, he is confined indefinitely, until his state decides to lift the currently necessary restrictions. 

Did you read the linked article about testing.  Your idea about what rapid testing can do is wishful thinking. Not reality. 

 

Quote

Oh my goodness, I'm so sorry. That's doubly sad. But yes, this is the hard stuff. I thought about bringing my dad here when this started, because we literally can't handle his level of disability. It's why he lives there. And the indefiniteness of it, that we don't know how long this is going on. All I can say is my dad has been very brave and it sounds like your family has been too. 

Oh no, are you for real? I've tried not to think that hard. I've told myself summer and things tidy up. Ugh. Surely they won't go that long. There just is not a way to safeguard our elders if we can't be with them. Now our place has been awesome in setting up skype/facetime, so we can actually see him and ensure he's fine. 

Yeah, I don't know what the plan is. We've been taking it one step at a time. We usually bring in him a few times a year for a nice visit. I used to take him on traveling trips, things he couldn't do independently. I don't see how we could move him out. He needs care and he's settled. Seems to me they HAVE to get this testing figured out till they have a rapid test that is affordable that they can just screen, boom. 

Ok, dumb side question. Why do we not do this for the flu? How often is someone asymptomatic with the flu vs. this bug? I'm trying to google this and seeing different numbers, but basically they're all way lower than the covid asymptomatic rates. So nursing homes and businesses were just saying stay home if you have symptoms and it worked for the flu, doesn't work for this. So I don't see how they get access back without rapid testing.

 

This is a way worse illness than most influenzas.    

It has the relatively low death rate it has so far because of shut downs and Distancing measures.  And even then more people have died from it in a shorter time than usually die per year from flu in US.  — or at least in hard hit parts of US.

Sure, rapid, inexpensive, non invasive, inexpensive antigen tests would be wonderful.  We don’t have them.

I believe that capable scientists did what they could to get improved tests—and the situation is far better now than it was a month ago. And far far better than 2 months ago.  It is not what you want, but it is not clear to me that it can be.  I think the main thrust of research has moved toward treatments and preventions—or ameliorations and strategies to decreases case numbers. 

 

😢A lot of us may not get to see our elderly parents again in person before they die.😢

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Pen said:

Sure, rapid, inexpensive, non invasive, inexpensive antigen tests would be wonderful.  We don’t have them.

Well it's a good thing they're continuing to apply american ingenuity and work on it. I'm constantly hearing about new tests being developed, so I think if they keep working they'll get it figured out.

[PeterPan]

So here you go. I'm just randomly reading about other things (Tesla, Elon Musk fighting to get back to work in CA) and here's this article about another test. https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/9/21253105/fda-covid-19-antigen-test-coronavirus  15 minutes, antigen. They're going to crank out 1 million a week. 

It's coming. They'll keep improving, I'm sure. 

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Well it's a good thing they're continuing to apply american ingenuity and work on it. I'm constantly hearing about new tests being developed, so I think if they keep working they'll get it figured out.

 

I hope so too.  

[kiwik]

On 5/9/2020 at 2:59 PM, PeterPan said:

I agree that would be a logical, rational way to do it. Our state has major hiring goals, none of which has been necessary up to this point even though we've supposedly peaked. So in typical gov't fashion they're throwing money at it. It's almost like spaghetti at the wall, like let's throw a lot of things at the virus and hope something works. Even though there's zero logic to how you can "trace" a virus when you only have data on a small minority of the people who get it and would have to test/track massive massive numbers of people.

So is MANDATORY TESTING next? Think about it. How do you get enough testing to trace even asymptomatic people? Forced testing? They clearly have something in their heads about what they're trying to make happen, and it's either unnecessary, ineffective, or going to require compelling people to do things they wouldn't chose otherwise. Fully 50% of the people in our area completely reject the governor's mask recommendation. So to compel testing in order to track asymptomatic cases would require something I don't think there's support for. And yet what is your "tracking" worth if you're only tracking after the fact the sliver of people who were severe enough to get testing?? 

FB is already using your data to do tracking of movement, saying it's ok because they're releasing it as group/anonymous data. policies. It seems like right now anything gets rationalized in the name of stopping the virus, in a shoot now, ask the judge later fashion. 

Random testing yes.  Forced testing no.  Most people have a sense of social responsibility and will agree for the greater good.  There are asymptomatic people but NZ tested 7200 people yesterday and found only two cases.  I really don't think there are heaps of asymptomatic cases - none of the random samplings of 300 or so at supermarkets have come back positive.  Also it seems that that 'not yet showing symotoms' is more accurate in most cases than asymptomatic.  We are not looking at a bunch of people like Typhoid Mary spreading infection round for years 

There are choices.  You can choose to put aside your private concerns while dealing with a crisis or you can accept that ice rinks will be used as morgues and the death rate will climb for at least the rest of the year.  

[PeterPan]

Just now, HeighHo said:

The nursing homes in my little corner of a major hot spot are finding that PPE and protocol works.  This is not some grasping at straws, its good management and using known procedures to prevent spread of infection. 

That's really interesting, because that's what my dad's place is doing. So far, seems to be working. It's just making it hard to get/retain lower paid employees, because they don't want to vacuum apartments, scrub showers, and make beds while wearing masks. It's pretty understandable. The resident is typically going to be in the room while the cleaning is going on, unlike say a hotel where the room would be empty and the employee could just work.

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

it seems that that 'not yet showing symotoms' is more accurate in most cases than asymptomatic.

I don't know that our data is saying that. Even the doctor at the top (Birx) is saying asymptomatic. But it's an interesting question.

4 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

lack of understanding of virus transmission

Oh definitely, like that woman who thought it was ok to come hack on me as long as she was wearing her stupid dinky mask. Low information people are thinking they're "safe" to take risks so long as they're wearing their fabric masks. On and on. 

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

Random testing yes.  Forced testing no.  Most people have a sense of social responsibility and will agree for the greater good.  There are asymptomatic people but NZ tested 7200 people yesterday and found only two cases. 

Our state (moderate size, 2.5X your population) is getting ready to ramp up random, voluntary testing like this. I think they're going to do about ¼ of the testing your NZ did. I'm not sure what the logic is, but that definitely is less information. And it's opt out, so to me you're going to have a skewing of the population there. I think, and this is just what I think, is that people figure out that going to get tested will result in someone "tracing" their contacts and telling their neighbors they can't work that people will stop going for testing. Watch and see, but I'm just saying.

Testing so far as driven by fear. But with people realizing so many cases are asymptomatic, people may just say suck it up, move on. They may choose to tell their employer some other milder excuse that skirts around flagging for covid and mandatory testing. I'm not sure, and I don't work. I'm just saying don't be shocked. 

Think about it. My dh is at church right now at a place *I* wouldn't have sent him because I consider the population higher risk. So he's taking a risk for ME that I really don't appreciate. And is he wearing a mask? Are they choosing not to sing or to meet outdoors as this dies down? Nope, not likely. And I pointed out to him last night that if ONE PERSON in that church gets tested, then EVERYONE in the church will be quarantined and unable to work (except possibly from home) for two weeks. That's imprisonment without testing available for antibodies, testing to show whether you even NEED the quarantine. Just gross mass quarantining. And up until this point my dh has been able to work and had no decrease in hours because he was "essential" to the minds of idiots who think others are "not essential". 

So we may lose paychecks over and over because someone happens to get sick with a virus that everyone is likely to get eventually. I accept minor, incidental exposures that occur when you go somewhere properly spaced or work your job. I DO NOT accept going into some small space and spewing your germs intentionally all over each other and saying because 6 feet apart stops that. There's no data to say that. I do not accept intentionally going into hotspots and higher risk populations. 

And when the inevitable happens and someone in a church gets sick and their getting tested is going to result in paycheck loss for EVERYONE IN THE CHURCH, are they going to participate in your contact tracing experiment? For a virus that's going to spread anyway? For a situation where only ¼-⅓ of people are being tested and everyone is not? Are YOU going to lose paychecks for all your friends? 

There's a flipside to this. There are people who think this virus is so deadly to all (which it's clearly not) that we need to have extreme measures. And there are people looking at data and having other opinions. And I'm just saying this is America. People value freedom of speech, even when they disagree with the speech. The ability to pursue your life, your income, is ENSHRINED IN OUR CONSTITUTION. These are not small values for us. 

I'm not saying what they *should* do, just that people should not be shocked. 

Eventually, some media here will do polling on contact tracing, no doubt. Let's just see then. But right now, my suspicion is they mean things that they aren't explaining fully. They're ramping this up just like they ramped up the closures, and when people figured out what they closures meant (and that they weren't evidence based and weren't for what they said they were), public support waned. And when people learn more about whatever these people really mean about contact tracing, public support may shift. This is not NZ or AU. 

We'll see, maybe I'm wrong. But I'm just saying don't be surprised. 

[Janeway]

On 5/8/2020 at 6:21 PM, J-rap said:

Why do you think it helps our country turn into China?  I know our state has set goals to provide enough daily tests and contact tracers in order to help open everything up again.   I like our governor...  I don't see him trying to turn our state into China.

Tracing every place someone has been, against their will, is not going help control an illness. It is taking us closer to the extreme control and cruelty of China and North Korea by taking away our privacy and using public health as an excuse. Just since Friday night, I have been out to eat twice, to three different grocery stores, and shopping at a few stores. We also had a playdate. What can the government do regarding the virus with that? Find every single person who was at each store and park and then find everyone who was at any place any one of them had been and so on? Not realistic. But every bit of freedom that is taken from us, including our right to privacy, is just another freedom, and it is normalized and then the next freedom seems like not that much. I feel like we are stepping in to George Orwell's books. 1984 is becoming real. And because it is first one thing, and then another, and then another...people are accepting it. 

Did you notice how hard it is to find deaths by day online? You cannot go by new cases by day because there are more tests available, but deaths by day, still not fully accurate, would give a better picture. I have already heard from two people who had a family member die from something not Covid related whose loved ones were labeled as Covid deaths. One was a friend's mother who had dementia and was actually about to die when the quarantine started and her mom then died and the death was labeled as Covid. I don't even know that the woman ever tested positive for it.  I met a woman whose child's death was labeled flu death, even though her child actually drowned in the tub. Anyway, the point about a count by day rather than cumulative, is it would show if less people are getting sick. Instead, all the charts are showing cumulative. Things like this leaves me feeling like there is a scare tactic campaign going on.  I don't want to become "1984."

[Janeway]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

I've flown for 20 years pretty much every single year on an average. I am very familiar with practices in the US and certain places around the world. I am not "spreading propaganda" 🙄. I do not do that. But when there is a concern I will raise my voice. Privacy has always been a concern of mine always and this is one of those.

I am a person who believes in vaccines. Absolutely. But I will not try the COVID vaccine until it has been tested and proven beyond a shadow of doubt for me. It is very important because that is the only way I can board a plane to see my parents in India. But the way it is rushed makes me very scared.

From the time this started, I have been very vigilant about what is going on. I reject conspiracy theories, but there are very great concerns for the future about privacy, the vaccine, how the military policy works because people are making things up on the fly with no real data or research because they cannot test. They are desperate to "go back to normal". I get that, but I would like to go back to normal to a semblance of a society we had. 

So while I reject conspiracy theories and propaganda, I will not pretend that there are real concerns about privacy and that too in the hands of a private company. Absolutely not. There are also concerns about policies, the vaccine. To pretend none of it exists is not "conspiracy" or "propaganda". I came to this country for a reason and I would like that society to remain somewhat when all this is over. For it will go away, with a vaccine, treatment. But what society are we going to inherit after this is what I always wonder because that is what my children will inherit. 

A friend who is a doctor and another who is a nurse stopped by the other day. When they arrived, they had their masks on and stayed outside. But I had no mask on and invited them in and they were relieved. And they both told me they will not be doing the vaccine when it comes out. This contact tracing stuff wreaks of wrist tattoos. It would not shock me at all at this point if in the near future, they find a way to label people so when we go out in public, people have to show their mark in order to enter stores or otherwise be in public. And perhaps even marking our homes in a similar way that sex offenders get labeled. 

[Pen]

47 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Ah, here it comes.

I absolutely do not think this will work in America. HIPAA is the biggest legal reason. My husband works in IT and HIPAA was one of the biggest things he worked in just to make old software compliant with the rules more a decade ago. This will be worse than answering telemarketers, people will scold, swear or slam the phone. They will not give up such sensitive information when you have half baked policies already about banning people from the military permanently who have had COVID. Now how that will work with the vaccine when people will test positive for anti-bodies is another discussion. 

As for me, if you ask me will I give up this information on the phone about our family, to a private company, absolutely not.

It will probably not be a private company.  It will more likely be a local or state health department. 

47 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

DH and I work in IT, DH FT, me now PT. I know how information is used. That is one absolute reason we are not on social media, do not have Alexa. We cannot get around without giving  information because of CCTVs, traffic cams, the GPS on the phone if we use location services, cookies on browsers. But we will absolutely mitigate how much we give out.

America is not a society set up for this. People will bristle. For example, in India when you board a plane both domestic and international, you will have to queue up in two lines, ladies and gents and every single person will be patted down, physically with people of the same sex running their hands all over your body with gloves just to see if there is anything concealed. They will then stamp your boarding pass and your carry on luggage, only then can you board the plane as they will check it at the gate. This is routine policy. I have faced this even in the Middle East though not this stringent, but people of the same sex running their hands over your body in the name of security is common in many places . In America, you just stand in a booth in a certain position and a machine scans you. Even that people do not like and if there is a pat down, people always have a problem. 

The only way this will work is if the government gets involved and I am sure then the ACLU will have something to say about it. . 

The government is involved.  

47 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

ETA: I've always wondered how the version of the Chinese QR code for COVID will be implemented in America. It cannot because information is not given out like that. 

 

Contact Tracing is standard practice for certain infectious diseases.

When I lived in NYC during illness outbreaks, I was on the receiving end of contact tracing.  It was already set up, had been set up for a long time. Standard practice.  HIPPA was not yet in force or certainly not like now, but it does not stop the reporting and following  or contact tracing of reportable diseases.  Sure, people will bristle. People bristle about all sorts of things.  But it isn’t new. Or unAmerican. 

The only change is systems I am aware of is for trying to hire and train additional Contact Tracers — more people are needed and to be brought up to speed very quickly. 

It is not at all the case that Contact Tracing is a new invention or borrowed from another country de novo for CV19.   Your lack of awareness of Contact Tracing in America does not mean that what you know or don’t know is the sum total of reality. 

Afaik the private companies would have the State systems oversee the tracers.  Contact Tracers who are not local could improve anonymity—that much less likely to be given a number to call and realize that it is so and so ‘s aunt Sally. And for a phone and computer based activity they don’t need to be local.

My state had around 75 Contact Tracers at the start of CV19.  They now have around 250.  

They are still hiring directly, but need more people beyond what they are getting  (most counties need around 15 contact tracers to “open” and most of the current contact tracers are already busy in the hardest hit urban region). Priority in my state is given to people with a nursing or similar background who are already familiar with both illness and patient confidentiality (I have heard that some states are also prioritizing social work backgrounds.) Many of my state’s more rural counties don’t have any local available people with the right background skills. Native American reservation areas also need more people. 

As there are a number of nurses on furlough it seems like a good opportunity for people with the right backgrounds and out of work (or retired but could do this) to be able to help long distance.

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by Pen

[PeterPan]

43 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

For example, in India when you board a plane both domestic and international, you will have to queue up in two lines, ladies and gents and every single person will be patted down, physically with people of the same sex running their hands all over your body with gloves just to see if there is anything concealed.

I get pat downs every time when I fly, and it's sorta weird and sorta no big deal. But as you say, it's a money thing. Scanners are way more efficient.

44 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

the ACLU will have something to say about it. 

Actually my googlefu this morning found the ACLU already has a department that handles concerns over contact tracing. So yes they're going to be involved, and yes it's going to make interesting political bedfellows.

45 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

The only way this will work is if the government gets involved

Our govt already is involved. States are hiring various companies, some nonprofit some presumably not, that specialize in this. Our governor was apparently the first after Massachussetts, which in and of itself is telling considering Mass would never be a model politically for our state, mercy. And these are policies endorsed by the now infamous WHO, which again makes you question. But no, our state is going full bore ahead, not fully explaining what they mean, making it all sound great. 

What I like best is the absolutism, people saying it's the ONLY way, that we HAVE to allow significant intrusions into privacy, on and on. Stands to reason if people say it's the ONLY way it means they don't WANT other options to be on the table.

Also my googlefu this morning turned up the curious question of whether the goal is to stomp it out (which would make sense and seem logical) or to identify and tamp down hotspots. So we've had this whole thread on the assumption that if you got tracing massive enough, got people to agree to participate enough, you could stomp it out. And yet is that the real goal? This is america, not NZ, South Korea, AU, etc. I think there's going to be pushback and a lot of questions. 

And again, back to my question. If the goal is tamping hotspots and we still don't have hotspots, and if the proposed budgets mirror the budget cuts to schools, then is this ethical? Couldn't we repurpose all those gov't employees and take care of this? Oh, but we have to bring in some Obama-endorsed, WHO endorsed, outside approach. I don't know, starts to get really curious. And there's almost no info easily available. Our state is doing it and NOT TELLING what it really means. Everything I'm finding is weeks old. So they're plowing ahead and not telling us clearly what it means.

I watched our church service this morning, and people are talking about it. They're wondering what it means when people come to church and get sick. This is not a non-issue.

36 minutes ago, kand said:

About 25% asymptomatic looks to be the number most commonly found and cited. The few studies with higher numbers have turned out to have counted “presymptomatic” people—those are people who test positive with no symptoms, but the majority of those later go on to develop symptoms.

That's interesting. I think I had missed that subtlety. Thanks for explaining.

35 minutes ago, Janeway said:

What can the government do regarding the virus with that? Find every single person who was at each store and park and then find everyone who was at any place any one of them had been and so on?

Uh oh, prepare to be attacked. You've questioned the holy grail. The WHO, which is really who's driving all this mess, is releasing an app with bluetooth integration for proximity tracking. ABSOLUTELY that's what they WANT. Want and what they'll get may be two separate things. But will they try? They call already use the tracking in your phone to trace you within x feet. If they don't get it with bluetooth (which isn't completely effective anyway), they'll just find another way. 

To me, the issue is not what they say but what they AREN'T saying. They've done this consistently the last few months, leading people along, ramping up the ante each week. They mean things they aren't saying to the public.

37 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I have already heard from two people who had a family member die from something not Covid related whose loved ones were labeled as Covid deaths.

Yes, it's pretty easy to find stories like this. Our state was at one point publishing parallel data with the old way (presumably more honest, snort) of calculating deaths and then what the new standards were. There's all kinds of mess going with data and all the screwing around does is to make it impossible for average people to see the data and think it's accurate. 

36 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

The military is currently considering a person who has been hospitalized for COVID19 as 'permanently disqualified' from enlisting. 

Ok, now I'm confused. Someone else made it sound like if they had it at all, and you're saying if they were hospitalized. They're saying the oxygen deprivation and cellular level damage of the disease is going to have longterm, as yet unknown, consequences. So maybe there's a rationale for this if people fully understood? I'm not for bias and losing hope, but on the other hand longterm medical care in the military is very expensive. So I can see where they're going to get very restrictive with known risks. It just makes sense. 

38 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

It is not a problem for most people to do the pat down. 

Agreed. I have had scads and scads of pat downs while flying. It's not practical on massive scale and those countries listed it sounds like can't afford the equipment. 

28 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I will not pretend that there are real concerns about privacy and that too in the hands of a private company.

I totally agree. And at first I assumed the hiring our state was doing was to be handled through county level offices. Nope, this data is all going to some outside org. With no question as yet by the legislature, no discussion by the people as to whether they're cool with this.

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 

I am not wondering about the efficacy of this or even the method used. But I will always be vigilant about who is doing what and where information is going because it needs to be asked even now and especially in a pandemic. The fact that a private company is doing this raises all sorts of major red flags, like "Enterprise" red alert flashing signs.

I agree with the Enterprise flashing signs concern.  

 

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I will be ok to give this to my doctor, no one else. 

You will be okay to give what to your “doctor, no one else”? 

When you go to a hospital or doctor office do you refuse to give your name, address, phone number or reason that you are there to anyone but your doctor? 

Do you refuse to let any one other than your doctor take your vital signs (temperature, pulse etc.)? 

Is your hospital run only by the government?

 Or a private either for profit company or charitable organization? 

 

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

I would like to go back to normal to a semblance of a society we had. 

Sigh. I know. 

[PeterPan]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

You will be okay to give what to your “doctor, no one else”? 

Yeah, our state is already saying asking your doctor anything starts the contact tracing process.

Can you imagine how unpleasant that phone call would be, the badgering, the shaming, the let me educate you uneducated hick, blah blah, if you try to "opt out"??? Do you think that hired minion on the other end is going to keep his job if he just lets too many "opt out"? 

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, Danae said:

This is paranoid fantasy. We have had contract tracing for decades for infectious disease. If you test positive you're asked to help develop a list of who you may have exposed. They get a phone call warning them that they've been exposed and recommending they get tested. If they test positive the process repeats. No tattoos. No micro-chipping. No showing "marks." 

Agreed. So if this virus spreads like the flu, kills as does the flu, why were we not doing it for the flu?? And people are like oh, you can't ask that, this is worse. Well I say the number of deaths from flu are pretty honkin high too. So do they not contact trace for flu because testing rates are too low and thus participation rates would be too low for it to make a difference? 

See that's all I'm saying. Why aren't we allowed to ask questions? Why is the legislature not getting involved?

Edited May 10, 2020 by PeterPan

[Bootsie]

I have a relative who is a state employee who works with a cancer registry.  He is currently on reduced hours/pay.  The offices are closed.  Most of his work he is not allowed to do from home.  There are all sorts of state laws regarding security and accessing of state databases.  

It would seem logical to convert people like him to working as contact tracers given that he is familiar with state systems, on the payroll, etc.  But, if he can't do his regular job from home because of security and state laws, I don't see how contact tracers could work from home, either, in his state.