Extracurriculars for high schoolers

[Roadrunner]

If your high schooler has long commitments outside of school (15+ hours) on a given extracurricular activity, are they planning on pursuing it professionally? We are doing some soul searching in this house. Now that the academic reality is facing us, is it justified to spend obscene amounts of time on an extracurricular activity that a child loves but won’t pursue professionally? I would love to hear from dancers who might not want to major in dance or musicians who don’t plan to pursue music in college or athletes who don’t plan on playing in college. Or do kids like that even exist? 

I am just musing here as we gear up for a school year and wonder how to balance things. Anybody struggling with the same issues? Is it just us? 

[Storygirl]

DD17 was in a pre-professional ballet program until she quit before her junior year. She was dancing 20+ hours per week, in addition to attending brick and mortar high school. She loved it (until she didn't), and it was really good for her (until it wasn't). She was very talented, and I was in full support of her pursuing a career in dance. But the commitments affected our entire family, not just her, and I disliked that.

When she quit, I was both sad and relieved. I had been ready for her to quit the year before, when it was becoming obvious that she was not happy and was not going to be a pro, but she held on for an extra year.

Ballet defined our family life in ways that made it different than what I wanted. At dinner and in the evenings, we functioned as a family of five instead of six, because she was never there. My feelings about that are deep and lingering. If I had known when she was 12 or so that she would give up ballet at age 16, I would have encouraged her to quit or cut back earlier, instead of being an all-out supporter. If I could reclaim those hours with her, I would. Our family and relationship is more important than dance.

The trouble with a parent telling a student that they have to give up or cut back on a personal interest, though, is that it can breed resentment. We really needed it to be DD's decision to quit, and not ours. We helped her work through the decision, but it was her choice.

Every year at her old ballet school, there were twenty some seniors graduating. Most of them did not choose to go on to careers in dance. So many people do stick with a great commitment like that, even without plans to do it professionally. With dance, though, there is a big drop off each year during middle and high school, as people decide not to continue.

[Farrar]

When it looked like ds was going to want to keep pursuing ballet, we did some soul searching about this a couple of years ago. The hours have gone way up, as have the costs. We're definitely more than 15 hours a week.

He *does* want to pursue becoming a professional. However, he's aware that it's a huge gamble. He may never dance professionally.

In the end, dh and I decided that it did not matter. This is what he wants. I feel like the benefits are strongly on his side. As in, what he gets out it may not be academic, but I think it'll repay itself in his life long term. I also think pursuing his dream will be an experience that I don't have the right to deny him, assuming that we can reasonably fund it (and we can, for now). I don't think the experience of working those long hours will hurt him in life or long term schooling either. I mean, will it mean that we can't push as much on school because his time is constrained? Maybe a little. But his ability to push on traditional schoolwork is also limited by his own interest and engagement. He could maybe do more with more time, but it wouldn't be an equivalent more, if that makes sense. He gives 100% to dance. He only ever is going to give... let's just say less to schoolwork. Not that he's not a pretty diligent kid, but it's not a passion. But the practice of devoting himself to a task and being willing to work and learn... it seems like it's priceless to me. The older he's gotten, the more I see it in his life in general. And while I get frustrated with him about schoolwork sometimes, I have a hunch that this ability to really go all in on something the way he does for ballet will pay off more and more in other ways as he gets older and it inevitably is transferred elsewhere. I mean, even if he dances professionally, he's never going to have the kind of big career that lasts a lifetime. He'll need to have another path eventually.

I always tell people about a conversation I had with an old friend who is a specialist doc. She said that she'll meet colleagues and be like, oh, so how'd you get into medicine. And occasionally she said she'll meet someone who was like, well, I was all set to be a concert pianist, but that didn't work out so I had to do something with my time. Ha. I think it just illustrates how these intense youthful passions, even when they don't lead to a career, can lead to a sort of attitude toward life and work that is actually really amazing.

For ds, he's got the whole thing mapped out. He's going to dance as long as he possibly can... and when he can't anymore, he's going to go to business school. I was like, well then. So, to him, the only question is the timetable, which he knows is not really in his control.

[Roadrunner]

12 minutes ago, Farrar said:

. I think it just illustrates how these intense youthful passions, even when they don't lead to a career, can lead to a sort of attitude toward life and work that is actually really amazing.

 I am banking on this.

It has most definitely shaped who my child is becoming as a person, but I don’t know how much of this will translate into amazing attitude to life. I am just counting and recounting hours and hours at this point and second guessing everything I have done with this kid. The next four years seem too overwhelming. 

[lewelma]

Quote

Or do kids like that even exist? 

 

Yes, they do. My ds is at MIT and spends 14 hours per week in music, even with a double major in math and physics. Although he could gain course credit for his music to fulfill his arts requirement, he has no desire to and will take art classes instead. Music is his passion. It is his humanity. It is his way of seeing beauty in this world. My ds holds his violin like a baby or a lover. He plucks while studying, plays to reduce stress, and makes friends through his music. DS's violin is an incredible positive in his life. It is worth every hour he spends perfecting his craft, and MIT has recognized his passion by giving him the music scholarship to fund his private lessons. He will not major or even minor in music because it is not about recognition, it is about self and making meaning in a crazy mixed up world.

Ruth in NZ 

Edited August 11, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Please don't quote. I will take this down tomorrow. Here is one of his MIT essays about his music. It gives you a sense of the importance of music to his development as a person and a mathematician.  

.

Edited August 11, 2019 by lewelma

[El...]

That's beautiful, Lewelma.

[fourisenough]

My two older girls spent 25+ hours weekly training as competitive swimmers. Neither chose to swim in college though they could have. While it was expensive and time-consuming and prevented many other potentially worthwhile pursuits, it was absolutely foundational and transformative for both girls. Their teammates were their ‘people’ and remain their closest friends. They learned how to do very difficult things (waking at 4:30a to swim on pitch black winter mornings before a long day of school) and to push through long after they wanted to give up. I credit their swimming with helping to develop time management skills, loyalty, mental toughness, and resilience. No regrets for the time and money invested in their sport.

DD3 is a pre-professional dancer. Though she appears to have beautiful facility, musicality, and artistry, I’m aware that very, very few (nearly 15 year old) dance students actually make it as professional dancers. Even fewer if you narrow it down to classical ballet specifically. Despite this, we are moving her 1,000 miles away from home this fall to live and train at a ballet school attached to one of the best companies in the U.S. Why? Because it’s a fascinating journey that forces a student to hone their craft, tackle physical limitations, tune out distractions, and juggle the often competing demands of an artistic and academic education. For us, it is about the journey rather than the destination. Her high school years will be so much more rich and adventurous than they would have been if she stayed home and attended public or private school. We’ll continue to support her as long as we are able to afford it. ‘Failure’ as a dancer just means that she will go on to college, likely a selective one, and she’ll have an interesting story to tell!

[maize]

My 15 year old puts in that much time between Martial arts (her primary passion these days) and Irish dance. 

My perspective is that high school is not just preparation for the rest of life; there is a great deal of value in living joyfully in the present. Pursuing a passion does not have to be about the future.

Besides joy in what she does, benefits of her activities include physical and mental well being,consistent and long term friends, and other adult mentors who encourage her.

To be honest, she isn't getting the most rigorous high school academic program she would be capable of; that's a trade off we have chosen to make.

Edited August 15, 2019 by maize

[8filltheheart]

My dd spent 20+ hrs/week when factoring both on and off ice training.  In addition to the time commitment, the more advanced she became, the greater our costs.  She absolutely loves figure skating and she still skates with pure joy.  But, it took her getting really sick for us to really see just how much her life was out of balance for her long term goals.  She ended up giving up her training to just skate for pleasure.  For her it was the right decision. She ended up having more time to spend on Russian and that is when she completed her Russian fairy tale translation project.  Long term, that impacted her more than she ever though possible bc it has really influenced her choices as potential careers. So hind sight being 20-20, she is happy with how life directed her.

But, back when she had to cut back on skating, it was a devastating blow to her b/c she loved it so much.  Not easy decisions, for sure.

[Roadrunner]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

Music is his passion. It is his humanity. It is his way of seeing beauty in this world.

That’s my child as well. 

[Guest]

DD probably won’t be cheering in college or beyond, but is enjoying it for now as a social activity with kids who are very intense about something.  It helps that herps are active April-October here, and the cheer season is October-May, so the time of year that has the extra travel and highest level of intensity for each of her two main interests usually doesn’t overlap much (in the Northern Hemisphere). It helps that her gym is owned by someone who’s former job was teaching AP history, and he is extremely understanding of academic commitments. 

[Farrar]

Having an understanding program/teacher/coach feels really essential to me. Ds doesn’t want to cut back, but he was at a studio where it was their way and timetable or nothing. His current studio (which, to be clear, is prestigious enough that older teens move here to train there sometimes, so it’s no slouch of a program) gives kids in the regular pre-pro program the ability to go part time then drop back in later. Two if ds’s friends did the half time program for a semester last year - one so he could try musical theater at school and another for AP’s. They won’t be able to move up, but when you’re already at or near the top save for the full time training, then that’s not a big deal. Knowing they have that program has just made me relieved and happy. It feels like so few places get that and let kids pursue their thing at a high level but without the same intensity for periods.

[2_girls_mommy]

My kids are dancers. They decided early they didn't want to pursue it professionally, so they've stayed with their same teacher where others have moved on who wanted to pursue more seriously. Their studio has a different focus. I won't get into it here, but it's amazing. Like others, it's their "people," their release, their exercise. I don't mind the hours they spend because I can't imagine our lives without it. This summer they did community theater for the first time- around 18 hours of practice a week on top of a summer part time job for my odd. That gave them something different to do with their dance and so much  confidence. They danced in a Christian music video last spring. Hsing has allowed my dds to explore the arts and also put time into scouting which is our other main extracurricular and not feel behind in school. We use a lot of what they do in scouts as our school. I don't think either will be dancers, but I think they'll be involved in arts in some ways throughout their lives. I'm glad they've had the experiences they've had and the confidence of trying things and being part of a group doing amazing things together. 

[Melissa B]

My two youngest are athletes. My dd 15 spends 20 hours per week in actual practice and another 3-5 hours per week working out on her own. Meets are additional and take up huge chunks of time as well, probably 20+ hours per month. My ds 14 spends 18 hours per week in actual practices. We have been spending the past month trying to figure out how to add another 7-9 hours of practice per week to his schedule this year. His meets add another 20+ hours per month as well. The current intention for both is to participate in sports at the club level in college.

We consider physical health to be just as important as academics. We have always encouraged our children in great amounts of outside time and physical activity for their mental, emotional and physical well-being. It is a struggle to balance the academics, but we always tend toward the shifting of the academic choices and not the physical ones. 

Both of my children are quite good at their sports and this adds to their passion for athletics. I like the lessons they learn in hard-work, endurance, discipline, team play, disappointment, discouragement, long term goals, and respect among many others. Their commitment to their sports is a huge part of who they currently are, whereas, they see academics as more of a requirement for long term goals. They take academics seriously and do well, but if a corner needs to be cut it will be cut in that area.

[Miss Tick]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

It feels like so few places get that and let kids pursue their thing at a high level but without the same intensity for periods

So true. I don't feel like we have that option where we live. 

[Roadrunner]

Do most of your kids work around academics? We feel that there are only so many hours a brain can be productive a day and since his extracurricular involves brains, somewhere we need to make sacrifices. It’s summer now and with minimal studies (we started back up slowly), I already see the trouble brewing. 

And all the great lists of extracurricular activities kids are amassing for their high school resumes? Won’t be happening here unless nature can somehow squeeze in another 4 hours into the day. Now I sound like I am ranting a little, but I am trying to think out loud in a way. 

[Guest]

DD did drop back to only doing college classes T-TH and to doing online classes or independent classes M-W-F. That allows a little more flexibility for the travel component of cheer. But she has chosen not to do the Beta Club or Honor Society. The mandatory meetings and group service projects just don’t fit in her schedule. Her social activities are occasional meetups with other homeschoolers and a twice a month science club she started and organized. 

It does help that she reads fast and has a very fast processing speed. School just plain doesn’t take her as long for the same classes as it might take someone else. She can cut out a lot of study time and repetition. As it is, I still think she survives on too little sleep.

This last summer, she pretty much worked straight through and ended up doing two high school 1/2 credit classes  and two college classes. This took advantage of the lighter cheer schedule, but doing two college classes in 3 weeks is intense and took a lot out of her. She had one week in between the end of the summer push and the start of schools here, which is when cheer moves to the fall practice schedule, and she’s slept through most of it. 

[8filltheheart]

My dd got up and started school at 5 am. She worked non-stop until 12.  She would work again after we got home or on the weekends to catch up on anything not finished.

Early morning start times is the only way my kids have kept up with school and ECs.

[alewife]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Do most of your kids work around academics? We feel that there are only so many hours a brain can be productive a day and since his extracurricular involves brains, somewhere we need to make sacrifices. It’s summer now and with minimal studies (we started back up slowly), I already see the trouble brewing. 

And all the great lists of extracurricular activities kids are amassing for their high school resumes? Won’t be happening here unless nature can somehow squeeze in another 4 hours into the day. Now I sound like I am ranting a little, but I am trying to think out loud in a way. 

In my opinion, your son is amassing a great extracurricular list and resume just by pursuing his music.  

My kids all devoted 20+ hours per week to athletics from the time they were in elementary school.  They played because it made them happy.  

For the most part, my kids' athletic time started at the end of the school day.  They usually only travelled from Fridays to Mondays a couple of times a month during the school year.  The club they played at when at home was 5 minutes from our house, which made it very efficient from a time standpoint.  They also considered playing as a part of their "downtime", so mentally it didn't feel like they were "working" another 20+ hours a week on top of their already demanding academic loads.   

 

 

[mathnerd]

14 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

 Or do kids like that even exist? 

Lots of them exist. Many go to precollege programs for music study in their early teens because they have exhausted all options available to them in music study, they excel, they perform semi-professionally (and sometimes professionally) and a few years later, they are pursuing something like computer science or PreMed studies. They do say that pursuing their art to such a high degree is what made them who they are. 

My son's music teacher always gives her students this quote from Van Gogh: 

“If one is master of one thing and understands one thing well, one has at the same time, insight into and understanding of many things.”

Pursuing an interest to high levels has great merits.

 

One way to balance extracurriculars and academics is an year around schedule. Schooling in the summers (with reasonable breaks for unwinding) and also music practice all year long is how we are hoping to keep it going.

[Roadrunner]

3 hours ago, mathnerd said:

Lots of them exist. Many go to precollege programs for music study in their early teens because they have exhausted all options available to them in music study, they excel, they perform semi-professionally (and sometimes professionally) and a few years later, they are pursuing something like computer science or PreMed studies. They do say that pursuing their art to such a high degree is what made them who they are. 

My son's music teacher always gives her students this quote from Van Gogh: 

“If one is master of one thing and understands one thing well, one has at the same time, insight into and understanding of many things.”

Pursuing an interest to high levels has great merits.

 

One way to balance extracurriculars and academics is an year around schedule. Schooling in the summers (with reasonable breaks for unwinding) and also music practice all year long is how we are hoping to keep it going.

 

I have a feeling a lot of people do that just to “look good to colleges.” I see that a lot of it around here - kids who don’t really have any passion but do as told. I think fewer of us do it as intensely as our kids maybe (time wise certainly). The kids we see who are passionate and serious about it are few and all focused on somehow making music a career.  Sometimes I wonder if my kid doesn’t change direction and end up pursuing it for a career. I wouldn’t mind, but I wish he was more determined so I could guide him better. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Roadrunner

[chiguirre]

5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Do most of your kids work around academics? We feel that there are only so many hours a brain can be productive a day and since his extracurricular involves brains, somewhere we need to make sacrifices. It’s summer now and with minimal studies (we started back up slowly), I already see the trouble brewing. 

And all the great lists of extracurricular activities kids are amassing for their high school resumes? Won’t be happening here unless nature can somehow squeeze in another 4 hours into the day. Now I sound like I am ranting a little, but I am trying to think out loud in a way. 

 

4 hours ago, dmmetler said:

DD did drop back to only doing college classes T-TH and to doing online classes or independent classes M-W-F. That allows a little more flexibility for the travel component of cheer. But she has chosen not to do the Beta Club or Honor Society. The mandatory meetings and group service projects just don’t fit in her schedule. Her social activities are occasional meetups with other homeschoolers and a twice a month science club she started and organized. 

 

My kid is a generalist not a specialist but she spent 6 hours/week plus tournaments and travel for rugby, 7 hours/week on  home school and parish choirs, 6 hours/week on violin and several weekends on sailing during the school year. This year, she's ditching the home school choir and one sailing organization to make room for clubs (Phi Theta Kappa and the Math, Physics and Engineering Society) at the CC. We're also going with a T/Th CC schedule to free up time on Fridays for travel. I think part of why this works is that these are not heavy intellectual commitments. She has a variety of stuff she enjoys and friends at each activity so the activities are part of her down time from studying. Even violin is a fun thing for her (she's honestly not very good, decent enough for high school orchestra but never considered playing more seriously, ditto for voice.) She may play club rugby or sail in college, but that's not why she's doing those sports right now.

I kept up a similar eclectic and hectic schedule in high school, although I was a theater/Junior Achievement/color guard/year book person so there's no overlap with T's interest. I had a lot of fun but I didn't plan on any of these as a career goal.

High school is a great time to try out a bunch of different things, even if you're not great at them, even if you won't use them professionally. If your kid has a true passion, they'll never have a better time to pursue it. But even if they want to dabble in a bunch of things, they'll learn valuable stuff that will come in handy as an adult. It's also necessary to either be a stand-out at one thing or an interesting generalist to be competitive for selective colleges.

Edited August 11, 2019 by chiguirre

[Roadrunner]

You guys have superhuman kids 🙂 

Mine is a sensitive, laid back, dreamy kind who hates competitive environments but doesn’t mind working hard for things he loves.

[Sneezyone]

17 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

If your high schooler has long commitments outside of school (15+ hours) on a given extracurricular activity, are they planning on pursuing it professionally? We are doing some soul searching in this house. Now that the academic reality is facing us, is it justified to spend obscene amounts of time on an extracurricular activity that a child loves but won’t pursue professionally? I would love to hear from dancers who might not want to major in dance or musicians who don’t plan to pursue music in college or athletes who don’t plan on playing in college. Or do kids like that even exist? 

I am just musing here as we gear up for a school year and wonder how to balance things. Anybody struggling with the same issues? Is it just us? 

 

My DD used to spend that much time on gymnastics but quit two years ago. She isn’t a huge fan of competition but loves physical exercise and has a lot of energy. For high school, I pushed her to get into cheer. It’s more ‘sport’-like at her new school. No sashes. No tiaras. Lots of conditioning/training. 10 hrs/week during the school year for JV, 15-20 for varsity. I don’t know what she will do in college or whether she will pursue this all the way through high school. Keeping our kids active was a goal of ours tho and I suspect DD will continue cross training into adulthood.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Clemsondana]

Many public-schooled high schoolers spend 15 hours each week on marching band - practice 2 hrs/day after school 3+ days/week, a football game that takes up Friday evenings, and then competitions that last most of Saturday.  This is only during the fall (they start in July or August and it runs through the end of November), but the concert season, while less intense, starts as soon as it's done and usually includes all-county and all-state bands for the serious (so, maybe not 15 hours a week then, but still 10+).  In high school I had lots of friends who did marching band, and knew many who did the concert season extras...many are now music teachers, but certainly not all of them.  I continued with marching and concert bands in college despite being a STEM major.  I had one advisor try to get me to quit, and another prof said to keep it up - it was good for me.  🙂  Interestingly, when I went back for a reunion with my college band, it turns out that a lot of us know play in handbell choirs at church, so while we don't still march, it was great prep for an activity that we can do the rest of our lives (and I recently played a violin-clarinet duet with my daughter in church...without the time in high school, I couldn't have done that).  

I think the biggest thing is whether the kid feels stressed about the time (or whether the family finances are stressed).  I really enjoyed being busy and found that the combo of band and basketball and friends forced me to be disciplined.  But, I look back and realize that the schedule would have been brutal for some kids.  I've got a kid who plays 2 sports and does scouts and Science Olympiad.  As we move towards high school, those sports are likely to take a lot of time.  We stop and evaluate at the beginning and end of each semester - does the schedule work?  Is it too stressful?  We may pack a lot of dinners to eat as we drive, but kiddo is happy and not overwhelmed right now, so we continue.  Kiddo has also become very disciplined with scheduling - if we are driving, or if we need to wait for sibling's practice, or if kiddo is eating a snack, then a reading-based subject is being done.  This student winds up with more free time than you'd think, and absolutely refuses to add any more activities because they value that time.  I don't see kid playing any sport professionally, or even necessarily in college, but kid's attitude is that they've got until 12th grade to enjoy these things, so they intend to.  Hopefully kiddo will grow up to coach their kiddo's team.  

[chiguirre]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

You guys have superhuman kids 🙂 

Mine is a sensitive, laid back, dreamy kind who hates competitive environments but doesn’t mind working hard for things he loves.

There are lots of non-competitive extracurriculars out there. Do you think he might like scouting? There is no competition there, you go at your own pace and set your own goals. You do need to love the outdoors (for Boy Scouts) or sailing (for Sea Scouts) but if you do, they can be a fairly chill way to show your work ethic to colleges. The Civil Air Patrol is similar and focuses on flying.

Choirs aren't competitive unless you try out for select choirs, but you can have a very satisfying experience in just a regular choir especially if it is a parish or community choir with adults who sing because they love it, not because they need another EC for their apps. Community orchestras or pick-up groups could be a similar outlet for instrumentalists.

I'm sure there are more things out there that would fit the bill, these just happen to be the things I know about first hand.

[Farrar]

Just so you know, my ds is far from superhuman. I can make him sound super impressive and he definitely impresses me... but mostly he's also a laid back kid. He does not do advanced much in school - though he is trying his hand at AP Microecon this year, we're not doing it as a semester class the way that many who are stacking AP's do. He will need a ton of prep and focus time for it. But he's not advanced in math or writing. He's spacey a lot. He gets sidetracked. He tries to worm his way out of schoolwork sometimes by telling me he's "about halfway done" with something he's barely a quarter into and things like that. When he's not dancing or doing schoolwork, he's generally watching The Office or playing video games. I mean, he hangs out with friends too, but mostly The Office. And Mario Kart.

Nor is a long term career in dance a guarantee at all. He's not naturally gifted. He has to work at it all the time. He will probably always and forever be in the back. He's often the worst in the higher level, lol. Like, they trust him to get on stage with the best of his age... but he's rarely got the solo. He had a condition in his knees at one point and his old studio were straight up nasty to him and basically booted him out. He got pt and returned to a higher caliber studio after a very lucky audition, which was really fortunate.

So this is all just to say... I've come to realize how different being driven and being gifted at something really is. And that even if ds isn't gifted at it, that's okay too.

[Roadrunner]

Actually we spend a lot more than 15 hours. That’s a minimum on very heavy weeks. 

He has a lot to show for it, but I can’t persuade him to compete more. Performing he does a lot. 

I think our problem is that his schedule is equally intense academically. I tried to cut some things down but wasn’t very successful. 🙂  

maybe we just need to put on big boy pants and see if we can survive the year and reevaluate next year. I tend to worry ahead of time. 

 

Its nice ice to come and “see” other kids in similar shoes. We are so isolated that we never see anybody else remotely on the same wagon as us. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Roadrunner

[lewelma]

Here is the academic schedule for my ds for his 9th-12th grade years (obviously it varied a lot, but just to give you a feel for it). Basically because he had so much freedom, and was only doing a few externally driven courses, he did not feel overwhelmed even though he actually did lots of hours. Martial Arts and Badminton were on 3 weekdays, plus Sundays (so 8.5 hours per week). The hardest times was before concerts when we would have to do one offs with accompanists.  This just mucked up the schedule. Also, when he took a university course, this too mucked up the schedule and was short lived.  Just not worth the loss of focused study time to get up there when the classes were too easy anyway.

10am - 5pm Monday to Friday (w/ break for lunch)

1 hour English composition with me,

1 hour Science with me

5 hours music/math his choice on timing (in 9th and 10th grade some of this time was for Mandarin)

9pm - 1am - reading/piano

We had a no screens policy after 9, and we all went to bed at 10pm. He liked to stay up late and read or play the piano (with headphones) because there was nothing else to do. He read Scientific American, The Economist, National Geographic, nonfiction books like Philosophy, and literature (books like War and Peace and 100 years of Solitude etc). This unschooling turned into multiple social sciences/ humanities classes for his transcript. Plus he did a lot of science reading which gave him a huge store house of science knowledge. This approach earned him top marks on all standardized tests because he read so much.

Weekends - 6 hours music on Saturday - trio/string group

Sunday - free (badminton for 4 hours)

[Roadrunner]

30 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

One doesn't have to advance one's skills in a competitive environment, but it is nice to use the competitive opportunities to see how far one's skills have progressed and where the weak/strong spots are. Mine could care less, that came from swim club because the top league people competitive people have a totally different body shape than my dc do, and dc often swam against people who were several years older...so knew going in that they would lose the heat, but win against personal best. In music we know many people who perform professionally that never set foot in music school, but took lessons and masterclasses to level up. There is competition of course, because you aren't getting a gig without an audition or a reputation.

 

No, but every time he competes, opportunities open up. He can’t tell you how many selective places he has been invited because he stepped out of his shell. He needs to do more. 

[teachermom2834]

I  have mixed feelings on this. My oldest played travel baseball but even that wasn't year round like the dance and music training some of you are talking about. Yes, it was intense, but it was in spurts and stretches and it was not as demanding as what some of your families do. I didn't love it from a parental or family perspective. He has played in college but just D3- so no athletic scholarship. His playing days will be over when he graduates in May. I regret, a little, the time and money we spent and the impact it had on the family. However, when I talk to him about it he doesn't regret it at all. He says playing college baseball has been a blast and it was worth it. As silly as it seems it does appear to get him a foot in with jobs when he can talk about being an athlete and he has met people he wouldn't have otherwise. So, who knows if it was worth it? I don't. He's had a great college experience and looks set to launch. So what part did being a college athlete play? No idea.

My current high schooler is very dedicated to 4-H. He serves on our state council and wins multiple awards every year. He gave me his schedule for the upcoming year and he already has 15 out of town weekend retreats/conferences/etc. More will be added. That's alot of time and he isn't interested in a career in 4-H. But I feel like he is learning real life and business skills and he is meeting people like the president of our flagship U, high ranking state political figures. He travels to a conference in DC, etc. and I do really think it is benefiting him in becoming a whole person that will be successful in college and the workforce. He has also made good friends and his social outlets are limited where we live. He has grown so much and is a confident and poised young man.

Also- very importantly- these activities are FUN for our kids. You have to parent the kid you are given and to deny an athletic kid a sports outlet seems wrong. (or music, or dance, or whatever). It is good to do things just for fun. The time has to be filled with something. For so many of these activities, the only time to do them is when you are a kid. Sure, adults can learn to tap dance or go to Zumba as an outlet. Adults can play recreational sports. But there are alot of activities that high school is the prime of your life to run with your passion and interest and see where it goes.  

So there is no easy answer here. I do recommend a balance. My ds could have taken more advanced classes and dug deeper academically if he wasn't playing baseball. But he still did very well. So what if he could have had another point or two on the ACT or taken a couple more AP classes? There is a point where the academics are good enough. That will be different for every family and child. I have in my mind the minimum academics I would accept if academics were compromised by an EC. That is probably a bar higher than some here and lower than others. That's individual.

Also- know your kid. Will more time really be spent on academics without the activity? My second ds did not have an intense EC. He also put in the least amount of time on school. Different kids. Different goals and expectations.

What does giving up the activity net the dc academically? Is it necessary to quit in order to complete a basic college prep course of study? Or is the activity being quit to get in AP classes? You don't have to answer but AP classes are not the be all and end all of a high school education.

My dd is in 6th grade and I have been able to parent her with the hindsight of having been down the road three previous times. She is in dance. I intentionally have her in a recreational studio with limited classes and hours and with no weekend rehearsals except at recital. I know lots of little girls much more advanced in ballet. In fact, we consciously choose to pay more for classes than we would where she would get more intense instruction. We want to support the activity. It has many benefits for her. But we know we don't have the interest, as parents, to pursue it with the intensity of the better studios. However, if at some point she had presented a passion and intensity that made us think she needed something more we would have been open to it.  For now, we have found an activity she can enjoy through high school without it dominating all her time. That is the sweet spot for her, I think. 

Sorry...lots of rambling thoughts and no answers. Time and resources are limited and you right to be questioning it all. But the answers aren't easy!

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Actually we spend a lot more than 15 hours. That’s a minimum on very heavy weeks. 

He has a lot to show for it, but I can’t persuade him to compete more. Performing he does a lot. 

I think our problem is that his schedule is equally intense academically. I tried to cut some things down but wasn’t very successful. 🙂  

maybe we just need to put on big boy pants and see if we can survive the year and reevaluate next year. I tend to worry ahead of time. 

 

Its nice ice to come and “see” other kids in similar shoes. We are so isolated that we never see anybody else remotely on the same wagon as us. 

 

This is the norm in our area. It’s a high-income, high-performing district and the kids stay busy and push each other. Not gonna lie—this scheduling thing sucks for me. I am not looking forward to adding choir, band, and track when school starts. I will do it anyway tho. I want them to be physically fit and engaged in their schools. I feel like that is especially important transitioning to a large B&M secondary school. 

[kokotg]

I'm starting to grapple with this as my 10th grader gets more and more involved with music (he DOES want to do music as a career....right now). I'm currently mourning taking weekend trips, as he has a private lesson on Saturday mornings and youth orchestra on Sunday afternoons. The thing is they really just don't know at that age--they might think music or whatever is just a hobby and then it turns into more or the opposite might be true and they get burned out in 11th or 12th grade or halfway through college and change direction entirely. So right now I'm feeling the pressure of making sure DS is ready for either thing--auditioning for music schools AND having a strong enough academic record to give him a lot of other college options. But on the other hand, when else in life are they going to have the time to devote all these hours to something they love just because they love it?  So as long as he's enjoying it and we can afford it (sort of) we're going with it for now. 

[Roadrunner]

Am I the only one worried about burnout? Or are they young enough to be able to shoulder it all and come out of it mentally sane? 

We don’t live in a competitive area but an acquaintance from Bay Area (a pediatrician) had some horror stories for me one time. They moved out of state to get their 4 kids away from unhealthy pressure cooker environment. Her kindergartener was having anxiety issues because he was the only kid in his Cupertino school (his words) who didn’t have pre and after school courses. 

I vowed my children would be free birds (work hard but have plenty of free time) and now I realize it’s not going to turn out as I had hoped. I think I want to have my cake and eat it too.

[Sneezyone]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Am I the only one worried about burnout? Or are they young enough to be able to shoulder it all and come out of it mentally sane? 

We don’t live in a competitive area but an acquaintance from Bay Area (a pediatrician) had some horror stories for me one time. They moved out of state to get their 4 kids away from unhealthy pressure cooker environment. Her kindergartener was having anxiety issues because he was the only kid in his Cupertino school (his words) who didn’t have pre and after school courses. 

I vowed my children would be free birds (work hard but have plenty of free time) and now I realize it’s not going to turn out as I had hoped. I think I want to have my cake and eat it too.

 

Burnout is real but it can be managed. That’s why I gave my DD two years off from organized activities.  DH and I felt like she needed to, essentially, rest up for high school and then choose one or two things that she could commit to long-term (and demonstrate leadership). DH insisted (military dude) that they have both an arts pursuit (art, band, choir, or culinary) and a physical one. We did not insist on anything until MS for DS. DD chose competitive gym when she was 4/5. We started her in rec. and she hated it b/c there wasn’t enough challenge. We do not mandate before or after school classes but the reality in our area is that many teams//clubs practice/meet before and after school.

ETA: As teens/tweens, I think it’s important that kids have opportunities to ‘juggle’ multiple priorities (academic and extra curricular). Not only that, I think many of them crave these outlets. It’s not just about competition but perseverance,    challenge/testing their limits, and being exposed to more/different people than their academic peers.

Edited August 12, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Roadrunner]

6 hours ago, lewelma said:

Here is the academic schedule for my ds for his 9th-12th grade years (obviously it varied a lot, but just to give you a feel for it). Basically because he had so much freedom, and was only doing a few externally driven courses, he did not feel overwhelmed even though he actually did lots of hours. Martial Arts and Badminton were on 3 weekdays, plus Sundays (so 8.5 hours per week). The hardest times was before concerts when we would have to do one offs with accompanists.  This just mucked up the schedule. Also, when he took a university course, this too mucked up the schedule and was short lived.  Just not worth the loss of focused study time to get up there when the classes were too easy anyway.

10am - 5pm Monday to Friday (w/ break for lunch)

1 hour English composition with me,

1 hour Science with me

5 hours music/math his choice on timing (in 9th and 10th grade some of this time was for Mandarin)

9pm - 1am - reading/piano

We had a no screens policy after 9, and we all went to bed at 10pm. He liked to stay up late and read or play the piano (with headphones) because there was nothing else to do. He read Scientific American, The Economist, National Geographic, nonfiction books like Philosophy, and literature (books like War and Peace and 100 years of Solitude etc). This unschooling turned into multiple social sciences/ humanities classes for his transcript. Plus he did a lot of science reading which gave him a huge store house of science knowledge. This approach earned him top marks on all standardized tests because he read so much.

Weekends - 6 hours music on Saturday - trio/string group

Sunday - free (badminton for 4 hours)

 

I am boxing up my kid and sending him over to you.  😉

[lewelma]

15 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I am boxing up my kid and sending him over to you.  😉

 

Haha!  Basically, I forced him to do 2 hours a day with me to make sure that he could write and could take his NZ science exams. We worked from 10 to noon strict. No whining, no procrastinating, just get it done! All other time was of his making. This freedom allowed him to work longer hours than I am sure would be possible with set external classes with set content and required tests.  He was self directed with both scheduling and content. I'm reading a book on deep learning right now, and they call it "learning orientation over performance orientation." Basically, we did not focus on credentializing and instead focused on higher-ordered thinking. This led to deep investment in academics and efficient learning, so that there was both time and energy for all the music. 

[lewelma]

As for burnout, senior year was awful for ds because he had only just decided in April of his Junior year to apply to American universities.  So there was just a LOT that had to get done to get all the credentials, those same ones that we avoided for his first 3 years of highschool that allowed time and space for such deep learning and his music.  I don't know the answer to this conundrum. 

[Clemsondana]

My oldest is in 8th, so not quite high school, but I always discuss with both kids at the start and end of each semester whether things feel too daunting.  Do they want to take the summer off or use it as a time for extra lessons?  Our karate school encourages families to think about whether they want to continue with the competition team - regular progress requires 2 days/week of instruction, but team practice adds  an extra day some weeks, plus some Saturday competitions.  The instructors are happy to have the 2 day/week kids and the kids who are there every day and tell the families to figure out what works for the kids and the entire family.  I never experienced real burnout with my activities.  I'd sometimes need to take few days in the summer, or a Sunday afternoon, to do nothing, and I'd sometimes be relieved to have a temporary post-concert or end-of-the-season break before things geared up again, but I never hit the start of the season not wanting to do it again.  If I had, I would have taken a break.  With my own kids, I don't want to not let them do what they want in case it's too much - we can always adjust if/when we have a problem,  But, others take a different approach, and I can see the logic behind that, too.  

[teachermom2834]

I also just plain think teens need something they really care about. For some that may be academics or family time or independent hobbies. But for most kids they will benefit from some interest that they are invested in. 

The extreme majority of teens heavily invested in activities will not do anything with them professionally and most of their parents realize it. 

[Farrar]

7 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

I also just plain think teens need something they really care about. For some that may be academics or family time or independent hobbies. But for most kids they will benefit from some interest that they are invested in. 

The extreme majority of teens heavily invested in activities will not do anything with them professionally and most of their parents realize it. 

Yes yes. I think this is why it has to be their thing. When I see parents micromanaging this stuff, it's hard for me to watch. And that's weird in a way because I'm a homeschool parent so I'm obviously micromanaging their academic education in many ways. But that's all the more reason that extracurriculars are where I try to step back. So it's also a place where they get real independence.

[lewelma]

I'm currently reading a book called "In Search of Deeper Learning," out this year from Harvard University press.  Two professor spent 6 years observing schools across the country looking for deeper learning. They found that basically it happens in electives and extracurriculars, and rarely happens in core classes.  Core classes have so many external requirements from the State or the College Board that usually focus on breadth rather than depth, so that these classes rarely have time to get higher up Blooms Taxonomy.  They found that students are more engaged and self directed in electives and extracurriculars, and that is where all the higher order thinking skills were being developed.  Basically, ECs and electives are what core classes need to replicate. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Farrar]

Just now, lewelma said:

I'm currently reading a book called "In Search of Deeper Learning," out this year from Harvard University press.  Two professor spent 6 years observing schools across the country looking for deeper learning. They found that basically it happens in electives and extracurriculars, and rarely happens in core classes.  Core classes have so many external requirements from the State or the College Board that usually focus on breadth rather than depth, so that these classes rarely have time to get higher up Blooms Taxonomy.  They found that students are more engaged and self directed in electives and extracurriculars, and that is where all the higher order thinking skills were being developed.  Basically, ECs and electives are what core classes need to replicate. Fascinating stuff.

 

The sad hilarity of that is that there's probably some educational administrator reading that book trying to figure out how to put those benefits of the deeper learning in extracurriculars into classes... through adding more external requirements. Sigh.

[teachermom2834]

17 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Yes yes. I think this is why it has to be their thing. When I see parents micromanaging this stuff, it's hard for me to watch. And that's weird in a way because I'm a homeschool parent so I'm obviously micromanaging their academic education in many ways. But that's all the more reason that extracurriculars are where I try to step back. So it's also a place where they get real independence.

We all get frustrated by the constant requests for dh and/or me to volunteer for stuff because my kids want their own stuff and we want them to handle themselves. My ds does not want me attending 4-H conferences with him. He packs his garment bag with all his dress clothes and doesn’t want me there asking if he should iron his shirt or making sure he is on time or whatever. He is practicing being an adult and he doesn’t need me there. I do understand needing volunteers so we try to help with things for other age groups when we can and we do make donations of supplies and money and help with transportation.

When ds was playing baseball we made sure it was his thing. We missed games sometimes and sat in the outfield instead of right behind home plate. Other parents made comments about us being unsupportive. I heard my ds tell a high school coach “my mom doesn’t care about baseball. It’s awesome!” Haha. The approach worked for our family.

People do confuse parents taking a backseat for parents that are unsupportive but that couldn’t be farther from the truth.

 

 

[lewelma]

48 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The sad hilarity of that is that there's probably some educational administrator reading that book trying to figure out how to put those benefits of the deeper learning in extracurriculars into classes... through adding more external requirements. Sigh.

Yes. I'm sure. 😞 The current chapter's title is "Deeper Learning at the Margins: Why the Periphery is More Vital than the Core." I'm completely marking up this book, and thinking about what I got right with my boys and what I got wrong.  I have totally changed the way I'm teaching physics to my younger right now because of this book, and very much thinking that the ECs he does that take up so much time are actually critical to his education. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by lewelma

[lewelma]

" Although extracurricular settings vary widely in their particulars, they share key features that provide a platform for depth. First they provide opportunities for students to connect their identities to real world domains of professional practice, to build knowledge and skills over time, and to create authentic products and performances. Second learning in these settings happens through an apprenticeship model in which real world domains of professional practice provide standards for good work, teachers model expertise and conviction, and students are gradually inducted into more complex aspects of the field. Apprenticeship scenarios also have the advantage of exposing learners to what scholar David Perkins calls the "whole game", inducting them as junior members into a functioning and integrated domain. Finally, the element of choice empowers students both to explore new identities and to play to their strengths -- a developmentally appropriate balance of risk and security. Taken as a whole, we argue these qualities explain why peripheral school settings are so often where the deepest learning occurs. "

[lewelma]

"We did not plan to make this argument when we started the research for this book. Our intent was to focus on core disciplinary classes.  But as we spent more time in schools, we were struck by the contrast between the student passivity, boredom, and apathy that was too often found in teacher-controlled core classes and the energy, vitality, teacher passion, and student leadership we saw in the elective and extracurricular spaces."

Great chapter, so far.  Very applicable to this conversation.  

[Roadrunner]

I wouldn’t say I see apathy in my homeschool, but most certainly my kids favor certain subjects over others. I guess we have accommodated them by allocating time commitments accordingly. 

 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

" Although extracurricular settings vary widely in their particulars, they share key features that provide a platform for depth. First they provide opportunities for students to connect their identities to real world domains of professional practice, to build knowledge and skills over time, and to create authentic products and performances. Second learning in these settings happens through an apprenticeship model in which real world domains of professional practice provide standards for good work, teachers model expertise and conviction, and students are gradually inducted into more complex aspects of the field. Apprenticeship scenarios also have the advantage of exposing learners to what scholar David Perkins calls the "whole game", inducting them as junior members into a functioning and integrated domain. Finally, the element of choice empowers students both to explore new identities and to play to their strengths -- a developmentally appropriate balance of risk and security. Taken as a whole, we argue these qualities explain why peripheral school settings are so often where the deepest learning occurs. "

 

I can totally see this. I guess my only question would be, “How much does it matter whether the parent introduces the activity (suitable to the child’s temperament and aptitude) or the child chooses?  Is there any difference in benefit if the child falls ‘in love/like’ with the activity? There are some kids who know what they like and/or show talent early on...something that can be cultivated. There are others, like my DS, who has little/no passion for anything but history. And, while that’s nice, it won’t do anything for his noodle arms. Developing the mind, body, and spirit is our goal so we struggle with this.