Should I give in?

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

your dd is probably seeing this as a case of extreme favoritism toward her brother, and because you spend so much time looking after the puppy, I can understand why your dd would be so upset about this, and why she would think it was so unfair.

 

I agree with this. 

[Condessa]

If you told dd she could have a kitten after the move, then, tough as it may be, you will be going back on your word if you don’t follow through now.  Add to that that you have followed through with the same promise to the sibling who is younger with the pet that is more labor intensive and will be for longer— Unless something really major had happened since getting the puppy, like major medical problems or something, I would think it worth preserving her trust to make the kitten happen.  At her age, you shouldn’t have anything to do with it beyond dealing with an accident while she’s gone during the day, which is far less likely than with your puppy.  Dd can handle everything else to do with it, including dealing with vet visits.

[Arcadia]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

But if dog were seriously supposed to be primarily a child’s I would insist that the child feed the dog for all meals unless sick in bed, in hospital or similarly extreme situation made it impossible. 

 

Agree, including obedience training.

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

Adding, your 12 could,  imo, do reading, writing, math and puppy care this year. 

And maybe kitty care for his sister when she cannot do it.

 

Her two sons can charge their sister for kitty care. Her middle son may not want the work of taking care of a pet but might not mind being paid for it. (On the other hand, I rather do tax returns than pet care so my husband did all the parental help tasks)

My neighbors has been asking for pet sitters recommendations recently at our neighborhood mailing lists. If OP gets her daughter a kitten, her daughter would probably have to budget for pet sitting or higher rent due to having a pet sooner or later.

[Condessa]

You say dd would promise to do all the care for the cat, and then would not follow through.  You can make it clear that animals in your home will be given the proper care by their owners, or will receive new homes where they are cared for properly.  And then follow through.  And this is something that should stand for your youngest, too.  These aren’t your personal pets, and you don’t have the energy to be caring for animals for kids who want privileges they aren’t willing to live up to.  

You are assuming that your dd will do what your ds is doing, and she is receiving preemptive consequences for actions she hasn’t actually committed, while you are simultaneously allowing and picking up the slack for the child who is actually doing this, and giving zero consequences for it.

 

 

I apologize for being so harsh, but I’m concerned this could be a relationship breaker.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Michelle Conde said:

You say dd would promise to do all the care for the cat, and then would not follow through.  You can make it clear that animals in your home will be given the proper care by their owners, or will receive new homes where they are cared for properly.  And then follow through.  And this is something that should stand for your youngest, too.  These aren’t your personal pets, and you don’t have the energy to be caring for animals for kids who want privileges they aren’t willing to live up to.  

You are assuming that your dd will do what your ds is doing, and she is receiving preemptive consequences for actions she hasn’t actually committed, while you are simultaneously allowing and picking up the slack for the child who is actually doing this, and giving zero consequences for it.

 

 

I apologize for being so harsh, but I’m concerned this could be a relationship breaker.

 

@Loowit Also assuming children are not going to live up to promises made seems like it needs a Stop and evaluate what’s going on. These are not 3 year olds who think they can care for a pet and genuinely really cannot do that. These are a son who is not taking care of, and daughter op believes will not take care of responsibilities.

That is a serious problem. That is a major, major life skill. I think you need to address that directly and merely your self breaking a former promise  to your daughter while simultaneously seemingly spending hours daily on puppy care in place of your son sounds ... wrong. 

It is imo more important than any academic subject. 

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Pen

[Loowit]

It is interesting to hear other perspectives.

DS is actually doing fairly well with pet care, but it has just been much more overwhelming that either of us expected.  He has been in tears a few times because he feels like he is not doing a good job with training puppy.  It is one thing to study up on it and another to live it.  DS does all the potty clean up and walks the dog at least once a day, usually twice.  Sometimes I go with them or offer to do it myself because I enjoy getting out and walking when I can.  We did do kenneling during lessons when he first got here, but he is getting too big for his current crate.  We ordered a new one that should be here this week.  If DH is able to jog with the dog in the morning, and if puppy then goes on a mid-morning walk he will usually nap in the afternoon, but that doesn't always happen.  Like tonight DH had to work late so will most likely not be getting up early to jog.

DD is a great kid who does everything she is asked, for other people.  Everyone who has worked with her has talked about what a great worker she is.  However, at home she falls behind on chores and doesn't keep commitments to me.  I just know that if she had the cat she would come up with a million reasons, some reasonable and some not so much, that would keep her from doing kitty duties.  Since moving I have had to take on a lot of stuff she used to do for chores because her life is so busy.  Taking on a cat for her so that she can do the fun kitty play and cuddles while I do the grunt work just isn't appealing to me, especially when there are days I couldn't do it.  Maybe that makes me selfish.

I talked more to DD this evening and she is interested in the idea of a saving fund for a kitty once she is on her own in a living situation that having a long term pet makes sense.  So I will discuss it with DH and see what he thinks.  Thanks for the suggestion.

[Pen]

If daughter will go for kitty fund idea that would be a big help.  And if lack of keeping her own commitments is reason for not getting cat now I would make that clear to her, with specifics  

Your son probably needs an in person trainer to teach him how to work with the puppy on training.  And / or whole family Coukd get in person training help if there were classes when more than one person can go .  Without that you may have worse long term issues with the puppy  

Some of this is extra hard because this is a first dog and you lack experience and supplies. 

The dog is very cute. However imo neither malamute nor Australian Shepherd is an easy breed for novice owners. So my suggestion is to get some professional help now while puppy is still a baby. 

[Frances]

10 hours ago, wendyroo said:

This is water under the bridge, but I would have gotten a kitten before a puppy.  Your daughter, being the oldest, has "seniority".  Since you promised her a kitten, I would have gotten one ASAP so that she could fully enjoy it before moving away from home.  All kitten chores would have been her responsibility for the next year or so, and then you would become the de facto owner when she went to college...which it doesn't sound like you would mind too much since you are a cat person and the cat would be well past the kitten stage.

You could have then looked into getting your youngest a puppy after the cat was mature and settled in the household and DS was a bit older and more capable of being responsible for dog care.

Wendy

And I would have gotten a cat and dog, no puppies or kittens, since they are much more work and the kids were significantly older than when the original promise was made. We’ve only had carefully chosen older dogs, and they’ve been lots of fun and quite easy. It seems like either a puppy or a kitten would be more work and more long term responsibility than a cat and a dog.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Frances

[Tanaqui]

I think your daughter is old enough to suck it up. It's not even an issue of your health, it's the fact that she is leaving soon and it's better for her to get her cat once she's settled into her adult life. (Or, if she's determined to have a kitten, cats. It's always better to get kittens in pairs and trios. They're happier that way, and less work.)

It sucks. It's an annoying situation, and it's awful, but I think she's really old enough to understand that them's the breaks.

With that said, in order to make this better, I think you need to compromise and agree to fund the pet adoption when it comes around - including the bill for getting the animal(s) fixed and vaccinated, some starter toys, dishes, and food for the first few months or even the first year. At the bare minimum, you ought to cover that vet bill. This is what you would have paid out if you'd adopted a cat earlier, and I think that it's fair to at least hold to that part of the agreement, especially as you're putting it off even longer.

One more thing - everybody here is talking about how cats are easier than dogs. This really depends on personality. I have had cats that were very in-your-face and people oriented. I'll say this for dogs - they hardly ever jump onto your shoulder while you're cooking dinner! (Boy, I was thrilled to rehome that kitten. I found a very nice home that always had somebody in the house and wanted two kittens, and I cheerfully offloaded the two friendliest kittens onto them. Somebody else can have a cat on their shoulder. Not me! And if you can believe it, shoulder-sitting was a compromise. He used to climb up there and try to groom my hair. I had to be VERY FIRM in order to get him to stop. Last I heard, he still prefers to be actively touching or playing with his nearest human at all times, and he's full grown. Some cats are just like that.)

Edited December 4, 2018 by Tanaqui

[ktgrok]

Cat chores involve scooping the box once a day and feeding twice a day. You really think you can't count on your DD to do that? It's about 10 minutes a day, all told. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

7 hours ago, Loowit said:

 

I talked more to DD this evening and she is interested in the idea of a saving fund for a kitty once she is on her own in a living situation that having a long term pet makes sense.  So I will discuss it with DH and see what he thinks.  Thanks for the suggestion.

1

 

I'm glad she is interested in the funding idea, and I hope you can talk her into it.  I would encourage you to also devote a bit of money to rebuild that relationship, which was shaken.  Maybe mom-daughter spa or pedicure day, or a coupon book good for a pedicure, movie, facial, etc with mom.  

And make that cat fund official: Stick photos of cats all over a large envelope, stuff cash in there, and stick it with other important documents in your file cabinet.  And honor it, even if she is 40 when she finally feels ready for the cat.  

 

 

[alisoncooks]

I've read most of the responses...

Regarding the thought that OP's DD will be going off to college soon: that's exactly WHY I'd probably cave in the kitten now. One last shared hoorah with DD, one last thing I could do for her to make her happy. 

But I'm sentimental like that...and it'd probably backfire. 

[itsheresomewhere]

About his “surgery “-  if the dog will be about 6 months for his surgery, you might want to wait a bit.  New research shows it is better for the dog and their overall health to wait until closer to a year.  

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I grew up on a farm and have different expectations of children and pet chores. Loving a pet means doing what's best for it under the circumstances no matter how it makes you feel. Animals are not children, they can be rehomed if the situation calls for it. It's not always possible to know beforehand if the animal you think you want is really a good fit for your particular situation/personality.

I would tell 17 year old daughter that if she chooses to get a cat/kitten she's 100% responsible for any daily care, damage, and scheduling and transporting the cat to the vet,  and she's responsible for rehoming it by the end of the school year before she goes to college. She should think about at what age cats are most easily rehomed. She wants a cat, she takes everything that goes with it and my contribution would only be financial. I'd also tell her that if she doesn't follow through on daily chores, I'll rehome it myself. 

If the son is over the age of 8 and doesn't follow through with daily dog chores without me reminding him I would rehome it. Pets are not for decoration or props for movie/novel like images of family life.  They're living dependent creatures with daily needs.  If you aren't going to fulfill the needs every day out of your own internal motivation, you shouldn't have the pet. Find someone who does have the internal motivation and daily discipline and give them the pet.

I just did that with youngest's rabbits.  She begged for and researched rabbit ownership for 6 months. I told her they would be her rabbits, not mine. I would only do her rabbit chores if she was too sick to get up and do it herself.  We got the rabbits.  After a few of months the excitement wore off and she needed to be told to follow through because she lost interest in them. I told her the rabbits needed to be with people who appreciated and loved them, so I was rehoming them, but until that happened she was still responsible for caring for them because they're dependent living creatures. She agreed that that was best. I dragged my feet rehoming them for a few months to drive home the idea that they're still a commitment even when the excitement about them is gone.  We contacted the breeder (they're an endangered species, not overbred) for advice for an appropriate new home.  After a few months a family that volunteers with the rabbits (including the two we had before we got them) regularly at the breeder's horse refuge/animal therapy farm decided to get a couple of rabbits and she encouraged them to consider ours because they were spayed and the family wasn't interested in breeding them.  That's where they are now.

[Lady Florida.]

If you're a cat person then you know cats, even kittens, are much easier than puppies and dogs. Even litter training them doesn't take much work. And you did promise. OTOH, if dd isn't going to be home much longer it isn't fair of her to expect the kitten imo, unless she would be taking it with her when she leaves. Which, if she lives in a dorm, won't be an option. I think you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

FWIW, dss brought home a kitten the year he graduated high school. We already had 2 dogs and 2 cats (dh and I had one of each when we met). The following year he left for the Air Force and the cat of course had to stay with us. He lived 17 years and we still miss him 6 years after he died. You might not hate having a cat as much as you think you will. 

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

Cats are significantly easier to care for most of the time. I’d still get the cat.

 

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Honestly, I am going to be a downer here and say I wouldn't.  Not for a dd that is already in college because indoor cats can live 15-20+ years and you don't want a cat.  We have a cat that I think will live forever and we aren't cat people.  The kid who wanted the cat is moved out, rarely here, and he is litter trained but is still gross, gets meaner as he gets older, etc.  We have him isolated to an area of our house that we really want to remodel but we can't until he goes and that could be for a very long time.  Just tell her you will buy her a kitty when she has her own place or tell her that she has to take it with her when she goes, haha.

[Pen]

12 hours ago, Loowit said:

th pet care, but it has just been much more overwhelming that either of us expected.  He has been in tears a few times because he feels like he is not doing a good job with training puppy.  It is one thing to study up on it and another to live it.  DS does all the potty clean up and walks the dog at least once a day, usually twice.  Sometimes I go with them or offer to do it myself because I enjoy getting out and walking when I can.  We did do kenneling during lessons when he first got here, but he is getting too big for his current crate.  We ordered a new one that should be here this week.  If DH is able to jog with the dog in the morning, and if puppy then goes on a mid-morning walk he will usually nap in the afternoon, but that doesn't always happen.  Like tonight DH had

 

I understand and that you did not know what you were getting into.

But I was thinking about this, and thought I should come back to it  .

Puppies need consistent training (and as novices your son needs a professional to teach him how to do training) .

Puppies need consistent exercise.  If your dh can’t exercise him one day, that needs to be a priority for your son to do it.  Or, it needs to be considered a daily priority for your son, that he can have lessened on days when your dh happens to have done some of it.  

IME young puppies need a lot of short walks and a lot of short vigorous play sessions through the day.  

And more   

Sort of like baby and toddler people need a lot, and it doesn’t do to say we didn’t get around to it today.  Then they grow up to be good, well mannered adult dogs who are a joy to live with.  

 

It isn’t just that puppies hard.  I did not realize until a recent post that you are in a combined situation of novice owners + health issues  + lack of something (motivation? discipline? time being allowed?) to care for almost  all dog’s needs on part of main person who wanted the dog + health issues + not all family members on board with having a dog + difficult breed combo .  I  consider myself a fairly experienced dog owner, but in my circumstances I would not even remotely consider that breed combination.  I don’t have enough energy.  

 

2 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

If the son is over the age of 8 and doesn't follow through with daily dog chores without me reminding him I would rehome it. Pets are not for decoration or props for movie/novel like images of family life.  They're living dependent creatures with daily needs.  If you aren't going to fulfill the needs every day out of your own internal motivation, you shouldn't have the pet. Find someone who does have the internal motivation and daily discipline and give them the pet.

 

Yes. This is along the lines of what I was thinking over night. 

And it will be much easier to rehome  that cute puppy now than it will be if he becomes an adult dog that you didn’t get trained and can’t handle. 

I can understand sometimes being in tears—young parents sometimes are as they have trouble getting enough sleep and meeting all of baby ‘s needs.  This could be a great experience for your son that he might be able to rise to with help to learn how to take over puppy care fully. 

However, a part Malamute may grow into a very strong dog who knows his own mind (they were bred to pull sleds and to be able to work out in front of their humans and make decisions about conditions that the human behind might not even be aware of), strong in body and mind and high energy. Australian Shepherd has less physical power, but similarly were bred to be capable ranch and herding dogs of the American West. 

Training with appropriate professional help must be made a priority for your family.  An untrained big powerful dog is a road fraught with dragons.  

Exercise needs for this puppy will likely go up, (think 2 breeds bred for demanding physical activity) not down, as he becomes an adult dog, so if that part is already difficult for your family, consider how you can handle it if his exercise needs go up significantly. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Pen

[Catwoman]

I’m thinking that pretty soon we may have to break out the big guns.... kitten pictures and kitten videos.

Just to be helpful, of course. 😉

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I’m thinking that pretty soon we may have to break out the big guns.... kitten pictures and kitten videos.

Just to be helpful, of course. 😉

 

I think emotionally it could be a big problem with the daughter — unless the money for when she is on her own will suffice as a peace offering. 

But they are already unable to fully meet the puppy ‘s needs for training and exercise. A second animal seems like it could be the proverbial straw that breaks the camel’s back. 

[Arcadia]

I am thinking that rehoming a kitten when OP’s daughter leave for college might be more heartbreaking for the daughter than for the daughter to get a kitten after college. That depends on OP’s daughter’s personality of course. 

OP’s son would have five to six years to plan for rehoming the puppy when he leaves for college.  That is a much longer time to plan.

ETA:

My mom has health issues affecting mobility. I have non-serious health issues. Rehoming would have to be the option if my boys get a puppy or kitten that they can’t bring with them to college (if they aren’t commuting). They had guinea pigs which are lots easier for my husband to help even if he works until past 9pm.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Arcadia

[Pen]

Btw, friends who used to live nearby had an Australian Shepherd who was primarily the dog of a homeschooled son from around the same age as your son onward .  

The dog was the primary activity in the son’s life. He had an agility course set up in the yard and he and the dog competed in agility (also had tried flyball, but dog preferred agility). The boy kept the yard mowed so that the agility course was operable.

  He studied about dogs and training and got help from professionals.  I know he had gotten good enough that at around 14 he taught me how to clicker train my dog to touch a target.  

The boy went to dog events. He had dog Unit Studies. The dog was friend and companion — and the center of both the boy’s academic and extracurricular experience.  And also what he tended to have in common with other kids (for example through American Kennel Club junior handlers and the agility and obedience work).  

 

[Pen]

17 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I am thinking that rehoming a kitten when OP’s daughter leave for college might be more heartbreaking for the daughter than for the daughter to get a kitten after college. That depends on OP’s daughter’s personality of course. 

OP’s son would have five to six years to plan for rehoming the puppy when he leaves for college.  That is a much longer time to plan.

 

I agree with you that not getting in first place would probably be less traumatic than rehoming. (Cat)

I think dog situation needs evaluation and it would be better to rehome now (for the puppy ‘s sake) if his needs — including training , socialization (is he being socialized, I don’t think that was mentioned) and consistent exercise can’t be met. 

If they can get him through to 6 or so years old, then as a well trained and socialized dog,  he is likely to be very well bonded with the parents; and by then he’s likely to be an easier mature dog who the parents are likely to enjoy living with.  Though he will still need a good bit of exercise as well as probably some ongoing training to not become antsy and destructive— but probably at that point much less than as a 2 or 3 year old.  

 

[Lady Florida.]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

Btw, friends who used to live nearby had an Australian Shepherd who was primarily the dog of a homeschooled son from around the same age as your son onward .  

The dog was the primary activity in the son’s life. He had an agility course set up in the yard and he and the dog competed in agility (also had tried flyball, but dog preferred agility). The boy kept the yard mowed so that the agility course was operable.

  He studied about dogs and training and got help from professionals.  I know he had gotten good enough that at around 14 he taught me how to clicker train my dog to touch a target.  

The boy went to dog events. He had dog Unit Studies. The dog was friend and companion — and the center of both the boy’s academic and extracurricular experience.  And also what he tended to have in common with other kids (for example through American Kennel Club junior handlers and the agility and obedience work).  

 

Are you sure you're talking about an Australian Shepherd and some homeschooled boy you know? 🙂  It sounds like you know ds and the Shetland Sheepdog we got him for his seventh birthday. They were constant companions (I'm convinced the dog saw ds as a litter mate), did agility together, ds exhibited things about agility and sheepdogs at our homeschool group's annual academic fair. He even made a little Windows movie years ago showing them at practice. Ds became a junior handler and they won awards at trials. The dog, our best dog ever, crossed the rainbow bridge almost 3 years ago and ds only recently got rid of the backyard agility equipment. When we first had Dingo put down ds made a comment about having to sleep alone for the first time since he could remember. Huh? I didn't realize what he meant and even worried a bit about the girlfriend he had at the time. Then I realized he meant the dog. Dingo slept in his bed all those years. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[Loowit]

While DS and I are both new to the dog thing, DH grew up with dogs and helped to train his dad's police dog.  DH does sometimes look at things with rose colored glasses at times, but overall he is great with the puppy and teaching it, it is just he is gone all day.

We are planning to do puppy training.  Puppy is doing very well with potty training (not sure that is the phrase used with dogs).  He hasn't gone potty in the house since the second day we had him.  We took him outside every hour and kept him in the kennel unless one of us was with him.  Within a week he learned to go to the back door to let us know he needed to go out.

Puppy is very smart and quick to learn, but it does take consistency and time.  I know that his breed tends to be harder to deal with,  but puppy is actually pretty calm for his breed.  He is also very much attached to our family.  DS is very determined to make this work out with puppy and DH is adamant that when we got the dog it was for the life of the dog.

[Lady Florida.]

8 minutes ago, Loowit said:

 

Puppy is very smart and quick to learn, but it does take consistency and time.  I know that his breed tends to be harder to deal with,  but puppy is actually pretty calm for his breed.  He is also very much attached to our family.  DS is very determined to make this work out with puppy and DH is adamant that when we got the dog it was for the life of the dog.

Yes, herding breeds are very smart and quick to learn but they need exercise. They also need to feel like they have a job. They've been known to herd toddlers if they need to give themselves a job. Agility is something that's great for both the kid and the dog (once obedience training is behind you) and you might want to look into it. Even if it's just a local kennel that does agility for fun it's a great way for the dog and its owner to bond. 

Any smart breed usually requires extra work but that work can be made fun.

[Pen]

31 minutes ago, Loowit said:

While DS and I are both new to the dog thing, DH grew up with dogs and helped to train his dad's police dog.  DH does sometimes look at things with rose colored glasses at times, but overall he is great with the puppy and teaching it, it is just he is gone all day.

We are planning to do puppy training.  Puppy is doing very well with potty training (not sure that is the phrase used with dogs).  He hasn't gone potty in the house since the second day we had him.  We took him outside every hour and kept him in the kennel unless one of us was with him.  Within a week he learned to go to the back door to let us know he needed to go out.

Puppy is very smart and quick to learn, but it does take consistency and time.  I know that his breed tends to be harder to deal with,  but puppy is actually pretty calm for his breed.  He is also very much attached to our family.  DS is very determined to make this work out with puppy and DH is adamant that when we got the dog it was for the life of the dog.

 

Okay good start!

And I would expect high intelligence for the breeds mentioned. 

How old is puppy?

Have you found a puppy training class yet?

D

Could you find an excellent trainer for some one on one work with ds right away?

 I s the grandparent who trained police dogs available to come work with/ teach your son (though methods may have changed and or be different for puppy ‘s needs)?  

Has puppy learned to sit by lure or clicker method and then had that put on command?  

Is puppy being socialized?

Could ds12 take off from school entirely for a few months to concentrate on puppy (pupternity leave) and make it up in summer?

[Loowit]

Puppy is almost 4 months.  We have a trainer we will be contacting.  She was recommended by the vet.

His grandpa is in town for about a month, and that is a great idea to have him help out if he is willing.  I hadn't thought of that.

We are going to go on break for 3 weeks next week.  So DS will get a lot of puppy time then.

Puppy is getting out a lot and meeting people.  We are waiting on dogs for another week at the vet's request because he just finished his shot series last week.  I plan to get him together with my brother's dog, who is a very well trained hunting lab.

Puppy knows sit on command, stay not so much.  We are currently working on getting him to come to us when we call him.

[Pen]

I personally would start working on him walking close beside me (treat lured) without a leash as a skill to work on after sit . That is, what will become a good off leash or on leash close walk,. because Malamutes can be tremendous pullers, and I’d prefer to get this mastered as a little puppy rather than have a big dog who wants to pull when I don’t want him to. Otoh, working up to pulling a cart or similar if he shows a lot of Malamute could be useful. 

I personally wouldn’t work on stay till you have a trainer.  

[Pen]

If you have not already heard this, set him up to succeed as much as you can. 

[Little Nyssa]

I would get the cat.