PLEASE help me figure out how to fix the math mess I have made with one of my kids

[redquilthorse]

I am trying to figure out how to best help my son get caught up in math. He is in fourth grade now, going to fifth this fall. We were using Math Mammoth, which has been fine for my 3 other elementary age kids. But this one ds has struggled all along and just hit a wall fall of this year. I decided to switch just him to CLE math to get more review and a better grounding in basic math facts, but had to go back to the 300s (placement test put him there). At the time, I figured he could sail through the 300s and finish this year, then do both 400s and 500s over the next year to catch up. Well, I underestimated how long it would take to go through CLE. We are not even going to finish the 300s this year. He is discouraged and I can tell he does not like feeling so far behind in math. As much as I hate to change curricula AGAIN with him, I'm wondering if we should. I have tried to look at the Learn Math Fast books, but their website seems to not be working today. He is my only child who has trouble with math, so I feel like I'm failing him. I know that we homeschool and it's ok to be "behind" grade level, but we are also in a PSP and do standardized testing. And he knows he is going into 5th grade, so he will not really want to still be doing 3rd grade math. He also knows that his younger sister, who is 2 years younger but only one grade level behind him, will be doing 4th grade math in the fall. So I have to balance going slowly and getting a good foundation with not falling so far behind that he is discouraged and frustrated by the testing. What can I do to help him? Is there a curriculum for a non-mathy, average kid that will get us caught up without too much pain? Or is there a better way to get through CLE? He is learning a lot but it is just so slow to get through it all. I'm hesitant to let him skip any problems because I want to be sure he grasps everything. Help please. 

 

I should add I have one in high school and one in jr high, so this isn't my first rodeo. ? Just my first time trying to help a kid for whom math doesn't come easy. 

[Janeway]

What is he struggling with? It is every topic within the levels? Or is it specific? I have found at this age, they are usually struggling with fractions and/or math facts.

[redquilthorse]

1 minute ago, Janeway said:

What is he struggling with? It is every topic within the levels? Or is it specific? I have found at this age, they are usually struggling with fractions and/or math facts.

 

Lots of things. He is still learning math facts. But it’s more than that. It’s not just one thing. New concepts take awhile to learn. Word problems are challenging. Any multi step problem is tough. He can add and subtract well with multiple digits, which is good. He seems to understand multiplication and division. There doesn’t seem to be just one or two things that are holding him back that we can work in and move on. 

[Janeway]

Just now, redquilthorse said:

 

Lots of things. He is still learning math facts. But it’s more than that. It’s not just one thing. New concepts take awhile to learn. Word problems are challenging. Any multi step problem is tough. He can add and subtract well with multiple digits, which is good. He seems to understand multiplication and division. There doesn’t seem to be just one or two things that are holding him back that we can work in and move on. 

Can you switch him to Math U See or Developmental Mathematics? Both often are great for the struggling learner and  gets to the point, not lots of excess busy work. 

[Janeway]

I would also recommend a computer game for math facts and such. 

[blondeviolin]

I'd really look into Saxon. If he can deal with 54, then he might feel better because it says "5." It'd also use incremental teaching and a good spiral. 

Or maybe keep him working third grade, but use Beast Academy, which would have him ready for prealgebra in 8th, which is a respectable sequence. 

[TX Native]

.

Edited January 20, 2019 by TX Native

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, blondeviolin said:

I'd really look into Saxon. If he can deal with 54, then he might feel better because it says "5." It'd also use incremental teaching and a good spiral.

But I'd give him the placement test first, to see if he's ready for it.

[8filltheheart]

8 hours ago, blondeviolin said:

I'd really look into Saxon. If he can deal with 54, then he might feel better because it says "5." It'd also use incremental teaching and a good spiral. 

Or maybe keep him working third grade, but use Beast Academy, which would have him ready for prealgebra in 8th, which is a respectable sequence. 

I think the Saxon suggestion is an excellent one. Saxon incorporates a lot of review and moves very slowly.  54 should be a good level for someone coming in around mid 3rd grade level math. I tried to find a link with a good description and this one seems decent: http://www.crescentschooldistrict.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_524588/File/Saxon Math 5.4.pdf

I disagree with the BA suggestion based on your description of your child. I think it would lead to lots of frustration.

[HomeAgain]

As a last resort, I would switch to Math U See.  It is a greek alphabet system (no number grades) and is very incremental to allow the student plenty of time for mastery.  We used it for my first and it was like it was heaven sent.  That same child is now doing fantastic in a math heavy college program.

If that's more than you want to bite off, then I would start incorporating more games and a highlighter into your daily work.  Use something like Right Start's card games or activities from Education Unboxed or a lesson from Gattegno math before you start plugging away in the book again - anything that would show the relationship between figures and quantities.  Have him use the highlighter to go through story problems and find 'clue words'.  We kept a list of math words on flashcards and then a piece of paper for quick work: times, more than/less than, and, without....each math word was paired with the symbol that it usually represents.

[nixpix5]

3 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

I think the Saxon suggestion is an excellent one. Saxon incorporates a lot of review and moves very slowly.  54 should be a good level for someone coming in around mid 3rd grade level math. I tried to find a link with a good description and this one seems decent: http://www.crescentschooldistrict.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_524588/File/Saxon Math 5.4.pdf

I disagree with the BA suggestion based on your description of your child. I think it would lead to lots of frustration.

I was going to say both of these same things so I will just chime in and say I agree with both parts of this ?

[redquilthorse]

Thank you for all of these suggestions! I will look at Saxon. We used it briefly with my oldest years ago and it wasn’t a good fit for him, so I hadn’t really considered it. But if he can place into 5/4 that might be really good for him. We do need to work on facts more, and CLE has helped. I have not been letting him skip problems in CLE because I wanted to be sure he was getting the benefit of the practice, but maybe he doesn’t always need all of them. I haven’t done flash cards or worked with him one on one as much as I should. I can do that for the remainder of this year. 

Thank you for the responses so far - keep ‘em coming! ?

[Syllieann]

If there is decent forward progress with cle I would be inclined to stay the course, doing lessons on weekends and over the summer to get caught up.  Reflex math is a really great app for fact practice.  You can do 1 month free.  I would do that every day for a month and then reevaluate .  It is adaptive, so time is used efficiently.

[corail]

I let my kids do the “Mission” on Khan Academy for previous-grade math review. My boys like this because they can get points and badges and see things leveled up. It’s all computerized so I don’t need to worry about skipping or repeating. If they got stuck on a problem, there’s usually a video to explain it. Also, the problems don’t come in textbook order, so it’s a good way for reviewing. 

 

[blondeviolin]

I suggested BA because it was surprisingly a good fit for my similar daughter. Surprisingly. 

FWIW, Saxon has been the answer to a lot of our math struggles with her. Make sure you take the placement test. If he's not tested into Saxon, I'd accelerate through Teaching Textbooks to get to Saxon. 

[MistyMountain]

For math facts I like Addition Facts that Stick and Subtraction Facts that Stick for addition and subtraction and doing the multiplication and dvision things on Education Unboxed with Cuisenaire Rods for multiplication and division facts. I saw the way they used the rods on Education Unboxed the kid picking the best way to group on them then played games like math war.

If CLE does work it just takes a while I cut out the quizzes so that is two lessons shorter each light unit and do math in the summer too. It works really well with my kid that struggles while Saxon and Math in Focus did not work at all but all kids are different. They are long lessons so I know CLE would not work for my other kids because of that. Process Skills in Problem Solving is good for explicitly teach bar modeling for word problems. I plan on adding that next year since CLE is light on word problems.

[Hunter]

If this were my kid, I would never let him see any curriculum that I was using to prepare ME to teach him. I'd only let him see the pieces, not the whole. I would make up stand alone units on individual topics, to give him a sense of completion.

If I had money to burn I'd want these.

Math on the Level

https://www.mathonthelevel.com

 

Math Mammoth Blue The topical ungraded workbooks

https://www.mathmammoth.com/study_order.php

 

Math Worksheet software

https://www.schoolhousetech.com/math/default.aspx

 

Ray's Arithmetic

Strayer Upton Arithmetic

 

Aufmann Basic College Mathematics. I'd make sure to have him work an occasional problem from a "college" textbook to increase his confidence.

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-College-Mathematics-Available-CourseMate/dp/1439046964

 

Many students that are "behind" get exponentially more "behind". Some students never "catch up". These students have their other strengths. Humans are not made by cookie cutters. Our society acknowledges differing abilities in the sports and arts, but does not afford individuals the same consideration in math and reading. We waste potential. We are inefficient. We all suffer for it, not just the misunderstood students.

[KrissiK]

This is exactly what happened to us. We really struggled to get his footing in math in the early years,, wasted a whole lot of time with TT (he figured out how to game the system and learned nothing for a year or two until fractions hit hard and he tanked and I figured it out) and ended up with a 7th grader placing at 4th grade level in CLE. We have stuck with CLE. He, too, “feels stupid”, but I think CLE is a strong program, he has been successful with it and a strong foundation in math is important. The most important, I think, because everything builds on what you learned previously. Unlike grammar or history, that is somewhat repetitious. You cannot rush math, either. Or they won’t get it. This is the problem in public schools. A friend of mine teaches ChemA in a local junior college and is disgusted by the lack of even basic math skills her students are coming to her with. I know he feels discouraged, but make sure he is understanding the concepts before moving on.

[Peaceseeker]

Agreeing that you can't rush math.  It is hard to feel behind.  I have been there and it can feel demoralizing to mom and child.   But you have to teach the child you have in front of you, right where they are now.  

Jumping around curriculums to have a different number on the cover isn't going to increase your child's math confidence. Getting better at math is what will increase the confidence.  And that is just going to take time.  If the program is working (CLE) just keep working it.  Continue math over the summer, even if just 2-3 days a week for a few minutes.  Don't take long breaks from math.  Whatever else happens in your homeschool day, make sure math is the priority and doesn't get skipped.  

'Catching up' can still happen but it might be over the course of the next couple of years.  Pre Algebra will be another review of everything.  If you are worried about testing just do some test prep the month before on any specific concepts he is struggling with.  But I wouldn't let testing concerns make me rush my child through a math program for the sake of catching up when he is already frustrated.  Switching around can cause more problems and gaps, so it needs to be really worth it to make a switch. 

I had to remind myself that this basic math they learn in K-6 is the kind of math most people use every day for the rest of their lives.  Yes, we all want our kids of go to college and do calculus one day.  But fractions, percents, adding, subtracting, multiplying, dividing, basic geometry- those are skills everyone needs every day.  They are also the skills needed to be able to begin the higher math.  Algebra students often struggle not with Algebra, but with basic fractions, exponents, etc.. that make up the harder problems later.  

This child may just be on a different time table than your other kids. That doesn't mean they won't get it eventually if you just keep plugging forward.  4th grade is a hard year for math!

[Lori D.]

On 5/10/2018 at 4:27 PM, redquilthorse said:

I am trying to figure out how to best help my son get caught up in math...He is learning a lot but it is just so slow to get through it all...this isn't my first rodeo. ? Just my first time trying to help a kid for whom math doesn't come easy. 

 

On 5/10/2018 at 5:04 PM, redquilthorse said:

...He is still learning math facts...

 

I'm just honing in on this one small issue. One way to speed up just a bit is to do math facts at a separate later time in the day, and only for a 3-5 minute session. Breaking up math into several shorter concentrated "bursts" of learning can help math go faster for slower workers. Also, I strongly recommend streamlining the learning of math facts through switching to triangle "fact family" flashcards. It reduces what needs to be learned by 75%, as instead of 4 separate facts on 4 separate cards, the student associates 3 numbers as a 1 "fact family" that represents 4 math facts, or 4 ways of talking about the same 3 numbers. And even better, it visualizes the multiple connections that exists between those numbers of the fact family.

This teacher's video and this teacher's video (each about 3-5 minutes) show the connection between multiplication and division and explain fact families, and this video or this video (each less than 2 minutes) show how to use triangle "fact family" flashcards. You can make your own triangle cards, or look for free downloadable/printable ones. Here's a free downloadable/printable version of triangle addition/subtraction fact families, that also has some teaching tips. And a free printable of multiplication/division triangle fact family cards.

If you have a very auditory learner, another idea for memorizing multiplication facts is to use skip-counting songs, or Schoolhouse Rock: Multiplication videos. These 2 past threads have links to various ones: "Catchy Skip Counting Songs" and "Skip Counting". If he is a very visual/right-brain learner, then use of visual images, storytelling and humor is what helps abstract ideas (like math facts) stick for these learners, so something like Times Tales, in addition to the Schoolhouse Rock videos, might be what help.

HUGS to you and DS, and patience. It really is best to move at DS's pace and get solid with the foundational maths up through Pre-Algebra, even if that is in a different timetable or pace from other students in the family, because getting the foundations nailed down now in DS's unique timetable is critical for having a smoother time of math in high school. You REALLY don't want to have to back up in high school to work on foundational things.

And if your DS isn't ready for Algebra until 9th grade -- no big deal! That's actually AVERAGE, so not a problem at ALL. And students doing Algebra in 9th get the 4 math credits needed for being college prep, AND they get that extra time for the logic/abstract portions of the brain to develop (doesn't usual START until about age 12-14), so starting Algebra 1 in 9th makes math less of a struggle because you have brain development working WITH the student.

BEST of luck in finding what works best for all aspects of math for your DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[arliemaria]

On 5/10/2018 at 7:45 PM, blondeviolin said:

I'd really look into Saxon. If he can deal with 54, then he might feel better because it says "5." It'd also use incremental teaching and a good spiral. 

Or maybe keep him working third grade, but use Beast Academy, which would have him ready for prealgebra in 8th, which is a respectable sequence. 

I would not recommend Beast Academy. It is not for all children, not even all gifted children. If he struggles with multi-step and word problems I would not place him one of the most challenging elementary programs available.

[Lori D.]

Okay, I keep circling back to this thread, and feel compelled to add a few thoughts -- disregard if they don't help! (lol)

First, hugs (((redquilthorse))) -- you have NOT made a mess of math with your student. Different students develop on very different timetables. That is okay! And that is the beauty of homeschooling -- it allows for addressing individual student needs -- individually! (lol) Now for my other quick thoughts:

- Agreeing with KrissiK ad California Dreamin' -- if you've found a program that works for DS, then stick with it. Slow and steady wins the race -- every time you jump to another program, there is time lost in just getting used to the new program. Really weigh whether or not a new program will significantly increase speed -- and more importantly, be a better fit -- or consider if using the ideas from other posters about how to streamline CLE a bit from their own CLE experiences will better achieve that goal. And, also consider that speeding up might just not be possible right now. This may be the exact speed this particular student NEEDS for now. If that's the case, then perhaps the best thing might be to find a strategy to help both you and DS to relax and be okay with that. Math is not a race. : ) And as I mentioned above, students who start Algebra 1 in 9th grade are fine -- and your DS is right on target for that now, so he's fine.

- I totally get that DS is feeling stressed and pressured by being in the same math as a younger sibling. For next year, can you shift younger sister into a different math program entirely, so even if both DS and DD are both doing 4th grade math, they at least are not doing the same program at the same time? And while it's a major pain for you, can you also schedule their math times each day to be at completely different times and not at the table together, to help reduce DS's stress about math and "feeling behind"?

- re: Saxon... It might be a fit, but it might slow things down even more. Starting at Saxon 54, students have to write out each problem -- there is no workbook. And while it is true that the small incremental bites of new topics mixed with lots of review of past topics is a good fit for many students, each lesson is LOADED with an over-abundance of problems. Both that style of teaching and the overloaded page of problems was NOT a fit for either of our DSs (math-minded one did not need all of that busy-work, and math-struggler absolutely melted down at the amount of problems, and at all the skipping around of topics). I guess this comment is really a second reason to back up my first comment -- even if CLE is slow, it is working. Not sure what you'll gain by switching to Saxon that is similar in style to CLE and apt to be just as slow -- plus losing time for having to learn a new program.

- LOVE that OKBud's strategy of dropping math to focus on math facts for several months worked great for her student. : ) The key is that each homeschool parent knows their student best. OKBud knew that's what would work for her DS, and that strategy can work for a lot of kids who can't move forward in math topics without math facts. Stopping all math until our DS#2 got math facts would have been an absolute disaster for us. He was already working 1-2 grade levels below in Math, and had mild LDs in math, so that abstract math facts were completely meaningless to him -- whereas he was clicking a bit by actually working with math concepts with the math program. For our DS, separating out math facts to a later, very short session in the day, and using the triangle fact family cards and audio songs, visually/tangibly showing the connections with manipulatives, was a better fit.  For other students, to stop everything and just focus on math facts would be deadly (in OP's DS's case, JMO, but I think the panic he would feel at falling even farther behind would overwhelm any ability to absorb info/move forward) -- for some students it is better to hand them a chart with the math facts for quick reference so they can continue to move forward with multiplication and division. Eventually they learn the facts themselves by actually *looking* at and *using* the facts.

On 5/10/2018 at 4:27 PM, redquilthorse said:

...So I have to balance going slowly and getting a good foundation with not falling so far behind that he is discouraged and frustrated by the testing. What can I do to help him? Is there a curriculum for a non-mathy, average kid that will get us caught up without too much pain? Or is there a better way to get through CLE?...

I'd drop any testing. From your description, testing is having a negative affect on him. Instead, sit with him as he's working on the day's math and together do a few problems on the whiteboard, or have him orally tell you what to do and you scribe it. Use that as your "test". Because testing is really meant just as a method of showing the student understands the concepts. If you're regularly sitting with him for part of the math lesson, and seeing he's getting it (or where he is not getting it and needs a little more help), then you are doing the function of a test and removing the stress and discouragement of tests. That also gives you a really good idea  of where you can reduce overall problem volume -- what problems to circle, so he doesn't have to do every single problem if he's getting the concept. And by dropping tests and finding places where DS doesn't need to do all the problems, you  streamline the program so you get through it more quickly.

HUGS! And BEST wishes for finding what helps you both get over this rough patch quickly! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Critterfixer]

Let's see--fourth grade. Both boys went from MM to Saxon 5/4. We survived. There were tears every day. Some of them were mine. Tested for CLE. Both boys barely placed in CLE 300. This would be fifth grade. It was either repeat 5/4 (not happening) or try CLE. I bumped them up to CLE 400. We did the first book which was review in CLE 300 concepts. They did okay, and I started flashcards every flipping day. To reduce stress with multiplication facts, I drew colorful charts and put them around the top of the dining room and kitchen. I told them to try every time, but if they didn't know, look. 

They are heading into ninth grade in CLE 800. I skipped the first book (which is review). They don't need it now. Their math confidence is strong. We ran up against trials with fractions and decimals both. Enter Key to Fractions and Key to Decimals. One page a day with topical review just on the stuff where they needed additional practice. I couldn't be happier. They will do Key to Algebra along with CLE 800 this fall, but they are finishing up with Key to Measurement first. I had it all in my head to speed up by skipping quizzes and tests (gasp! They won't be ready for algebra in ninth grade!) but you know, I quit caring. It was more important to me to see them succeeding, not afraid of math anymore, and confident enough to grit down and do the work because they know they can do it, if they are willing to figure things out. CLE gave them the confidence to do that. 

Who cares what it says on the front of the book? The boys and I have had frequent conversations on how it is not a waste of time to work where you are comfortable until you are ready to go on. I taught them to flip their kayaks in a quiet creek, and they practiced that and practiced that with laughs and giggles. So no fear when they hit their first set of strong rapids on their first major float trip. They were ready. 

ETA: I started Key to Fractions with CLE 500, and Key to Decimals with late 500/600 if I remember correctly. It's been a while.

[mama25angels]

1 hour ago, Critterfixer said:

Let's see--fourth grade. Both boys went from MM to Saxon 5/4. We survived. There were tears every day. Some of them were mine. Tested for CLE. Both boys barely placed in CLE 300. This would be fifth grade. It was either repeat 5/4 (not happening) or try CLE. I bumped them up to CLE 400. We did the first book which was review in CLE 300 concepts. They did okay, and I started flashcards every flipping day. To reduce stress with multiplication facts, I drew colorful charts and put them around the top of the dining room and kitchen. I told them to try every time, but if they didn't know, look. 

They are heading into ninth grade in CLE 800. I skipped the first book (which is review). They don't need it now. Their math confidence is strong. We ran up against trials with fractions and decimals both. Enter Key to Fractions and Key to Decimals. One page a day with topical review just on the stuff where they needed additional practice. I couldn't be happier. They will do Key to Algebra along with CLE 800 this fall, but they are finishing up with Key to Measurement first. I had it all in my head to speed up by skipping quizzes and tests (gasp! They won't be ready for algebra in ninth grade!) but you know, I quit caring. It was more important to me to see them succeeding, not afraid of math anymore, and confident enough to grit down and do the work because they know they can do it, if they are willing to figure things out. CLE gave them the confidence to do that. 

Who cares what it says on the front of the book? The boys and I have had frequent conversations on how it is not a waste of time to work where you are comfortable until you are ready to go on. I taught them to flip their kayaks in a quiet creek, and they practiced that and practiced that with laughs and giggles. So no fear when they hit their first set of strong rapids on their first major float trip. They were ready. 

ETA: I started Key to Fractions with CLE 500, and Key to Decimals with late 500/600 if I remember correctly. It's been a while.

Beautifully said!

[redquilthorse]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:25 AM, Lori D. said:

 

 

I'm just honing in on this one small issue. One way to speed up just a bit is to do math facts at a separate later time in the day, and only for a 3-5 minute session. Breaking up math into several shorter concentrated "bursts" of learning can help math go faster for slower workers. Also, I strongly recommend streamlining the learning of math facts through switching to triangle "fact family" flashcards. It reduces what needs to be learned by 75%, as instead of 4 separate facts on 4 separate cards, the student associates 3 numbers as a 1 "fact family" that represents 4 math facts, or 4 ways of talking about the same 3 numbers. And even better, it visualizes the multiple connections that exists between those numbers of the fact family.

This teacher's video and this teacher's video (each about 3-5 minutes) show the connection between multiplication and division and explain fact families, and this video or this video (each less than 2 minutes) show how to use triangle "fact family" flashcards. You can make your own triangle cards, or look for free downloadable/printable ones. Here's a free downloadable/printable version of triangle addition/subtraction fact families, that also has some teaching tips. And a free printable of multiplication/division triangle fact family cards.

If you have a very auditory learner, another idea for memorizing multiplication facts is to use skip-counting songs, or Schoolhouse Rock: Multiplication videos. These 2 past threads have links to various ones: "Catchy Skip Counting Songs" and "Skip Counting". If he is a very visual/right-brain learner, then use of visual images, storytelling and humor is what helps abstract ideas (like math facts) stick for these learners, so something like Times Tales, in addition to the Schoolhouse Rock videos, might be what help.

HUGS to you and DS, and patience. It really is best to move at DS's pace and get solid with the foundational maths up through Pre-Algebra, even if that is in a different timetable or pace from other students in the family, because getting the foundations nailed down now in DS's unique timetable is critical for having a smoother time of math in high school. You REALLY don't want to have to back up in high school to work on foundational things.

And if your DS isn't ready for Algebra until 9th grade -- no big deal! That's actually AVERAGE, so not a problem at ALL. And students doing Algebra in 9th get the 4 math credits needed for being college prep, AND they get that extra time for the logic/abstract portions of the brain to develop (doesn't usual START until about age 12-14), so starting Algebra 1 in 9th makes math less of a struggle because you have brain development working WITH the student.

BEST of luck in finding what works best for all aspects of math for your DS! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thank you for the resources for math facts - this is awesome! And thank you for the support. I am totally OK with algebra in 9th if that's what he needs. I didn't realize that CLE 800 is Algebra 1. So doing CLE 400 in 5th would put him on track for 9th grade algebra if we can get to that point over the summer.

[redquilthorse]

22 hours ago, Critterfixer said:

Let's see--fourth grade. Both boys went from MM to Saxon 5/4. We survived. There were tears every day. Some of them were mine. Tested for CLE. Both boys barely placed in CLE 300. This would be fifth grade. It was either repeat 5/4 (not happening) or try CLE. I bumped them up to CLE 400. We did the first book which was review in CLE 300 concepts. They did okay, and I started flashcards every flipping day. To reduce stress with multiplication facts, I drew colorful charts and put them around the top of the dining room and kitchen. I told them to try every time, but if they didn't know, look. 

They are heading into ninth grade in CLE 800. I skipped the first book (which is review). They don't need it now. Their math confidence is strong. We ran up against trials with fractions and decimals both. Enter Key to Fractions and Key to Decimals. One page a day with topical review just on the stuff where they needed additional practice. I couldn't be happier. They will do Key to Algebra along with CLE 800 this fall, but they are finishing up with Key to Measurement first. I had it all in my head to speed up by skipping quizzes and tests (gasp! They won't be ready for algebra in ninth grade!) but you know, I quit caring. It was more important to me to see them succeeding, not afraid of math anymore, and confident enough to grit down and do the work because they know they can do it, if they are willing to figure things out. CLE gave them the confidence to do that. 

Who cares what it says on the front of the book? The boys and I have had frequent conversations on how it is not a waste of time to work where you are comfortable until you are ready to go on. I taught them to flip their kayaks in a quiet creek, and they practiced that and practiced that with laughs and giggles. So no fear when they hit their first set of strong rapids on their first major float trip. They were ready. 

ETA: I started Key to Fractions with CLE 500, and Key to Decimals with late 500/600 if I remember correctly. It's been a while.

Thank you! I didn't know that CLE 800 is algebra 1. I hadn't looked that far ahead. I am totally ok with hitting algebra 1 in 9th grade instead of 8th. My oldest started algebra in 7th but it was so hard for him that we ended up taking 2 years to do it. So I have seen that accelerating doesn't always work out. I'll look at the Key to books, too. I had forgotten about those. 

[Critterfixer]

CLE 800 isn't Algebra. Some folks skip it and go to Algebra from 700. I chose to do 800 and go into Algebra a little later in 9th grade. 

[redquilthorse]

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Okay, I keep circling back to this thread, and feel compelled to add a few thoughts -- disregard if they don't help! (lol)

First, hugs (((redquilthorse))) -- you have NOT made a mess of math with your student. Different students develop on very different timetables. That is okay! And that is the beauty of homeschooling -- it allows for addressing individual student needs -- individually! (lol) Now for my other quick thoughts:

- Agreeing with KrissiK ad California Dreamin' -- if you've found a program that works for DS, then stick with it. Slow and steady wins the race -- every time you jump to another program, there is time lost in just getting used to the new program. Really weigh whether or not a new program will significantly increase speed -- and more importantly, be a better fit -- or consider if using the ideas from other posters about how to streamline CLE a bit from their own CLE experiences will better achieve that goal. And, also consider that speeding up might just not be possible right now. This may be the exact speed this particular student NEEDS for now. If that's the case, then perhaps the best thing might be to find a strategy to help both you and DS to relax and be okay with that. Math is not a race. : ) And as I mentioned above, students who start Algebra 1 in 9th grade are fine -- and your DS is right on target for that now, so he's fine.

I am hesitant to leave CLE since it has been good for him. It's just slow. The lessons are pretty long. But maybe I can figure out over time which things he is solid on so we can skip the review. We just started using it in January and I haven't been able to pay as much attention to it as I would like on a regular basis to help him get through the lessons faster. Hopefully this summer I can focus on it more.  

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

- I totally get that DS is feeling stressed and pressured by being in the same math as a younger sibling. For next year, can you shift younger sister into a different math program entirely, so even if both DS and DD are both doing 4th grade math, they at least are not doing the same program at the same time? And while it's a major pain for you, can you also schedule their math times each day to be at completely different times and not at the table together, to help reduce DS's stress about math and "feeling behind"?

I could actually keep his sister in Math Mammoth. She asked to switch to CLE and is ready for 400 according to the placement test. But if I keep her in Math Mammoth it might help. It will probably also help to reassure him that he will still be "on track" for algebra 1 in 9th, which is totally acceptable. I think he will understand that, especially since he has two older brothers and has some frame of reference for what is ahead.

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

- re: Saxon... It might be a fit, but it might slow things down even more. Starting at Saxon 54, students have to write out each problem -- there is no workbook. And while it is true that the small incremental bites of new topics mixed with lots of review of past topics is a good fit for many students, each lesson is LOADED with an over-abundance of problems. Both that style of teaching and the overloaded page of problems was NOT a fit for either of our DSs (math-minded one did not need all of that busy-work, and math-struggler absolutely melted down at the amount of problems, and at all the skipping around of topics). I guess this comment is really a second reason to back up my first comment -- even if CLE is slow, it is working. Not sure what you'll gain by switching to Saxon that is similar in style to CLE and apt to be just as slow -- plus losing time for having to learn a new program.

This is good to know. I can barely get him to show his work much less get him to write out the problems. ?

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

- LOVE that OKBud's strategy of dropping math to focus on math facts for several months worked great for her student. : ) The key is that each homeschool parent knows their student best. OKBud knew that's what would work for her DS, and that strategy can work for a lot of kids who can't move forward in math topics without math facts. Stopping all math until our DS#2 got math facts would have been an absolute disaster for us. He was already working 1-2 grade levels below in Math, and had mild LDs in math, so that abstract math facts were completely meaningless to him -- whereas he was clicking a bit by actually working with math concepts with the math program. For our DS, separating out math facts to a later, very short session in the day, and using the triangle fact family cards and audio songs, visually/tangibly showing the connections with manipulatives, was a better fit.  For other students, to stop everything and just focus on math facts would be deadly (in OP's DS's case, JMO, but I think the panic he would feel at falling even farther behind would overwhelm any ability to absorb info/move forward) -- for some students it is better to hand them a chart with the math facts for quick reference so they can continue to move forward with multiplication and division. Eventually they learn the facts themselves by actually *looking* at and *using* the facts.

I probably can't stop and JUST do math facts, but I do realize that I need to spend more time one on one with him practicing them. I think using them helps him remember them. I did buy the CLE math reference chart with the multiplication tables on it, and I've told him he can use it. I think he doesn't always want to bother with getting it out. I'll make sure he gets it out more. 

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

I'd drop any testing. From your description, testing is having a negative affect on him. Instead, sit with him as he's working on the day's math and together do a few problems on the whiteboard, or have him orally tell you what to do and you scribe it. Use that as your "test". Because testing is really meant just as a method of showing the student understands the concepts. If you're regularly sitting with him for part of the math lesson, and seeing he's getting it (or where he is not getting it and needs a little more help), then you are doing the function of a test and removing the stress and discouragement of tests. That also gives you a really good idea  of where you can reduce overall problem volume -- what problems to circle, so he doesn't have to do every single problem if he's getting the concept. And by dropping tests and finding places where DS doesn't need to do all the problems, you  streamline the program so you get through it more quickly.

I wish we could drop testing, but to do that would mean we withdraw from our PSP that also has all of their fun classes, field trips, and friends. I never ever let him see his scores, so as long as he learns enough math to not walk out of the test feeling like he didn't know how to do the math, it should be ok. He was fine this year, I was just worried about falling so far behind next year that he feel defeated on the test. But that's probably me worrying too much about a future that hasn't arrived instead of taking one day at a time. ? 

23 hours ago, Lori D. said:

HUGS! And BEST wishes for finding what helps you both get over this rough patch quickly! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

Thank you so much! Your input has been very helpful. 

[redquilthorse]

8 minutes ago, Critterfixer said:

CLE 800 isn't Algebra. Some folks skip it and go to Algebra from 700. I chose to do 800 and go into Algebra a little later in 9th grade. 

Well shoot. I was looking at the website and saw that there's no algebra and it goes from 800 to geometry. But the description says it's enough prealgebra to go to algebra from there so I should've read it more closely. So if we go through 700 in 8th grade, he might be ready to go straight to algebra? Or is this only for advanced students? I do want to at least get to algebra in 9th. 

[redquilthorse]

On 5/12/2018 at 7:58 AM, KrissiK said:

This is exactly what happened to us. We really struggled to get his footing in math in the early years,, wasted a whole lot of time with TT (he figured out how to game the system and learned nothing for a year or two until fractions hit hard and he tanked and I figured it out) and ended up with a 7th grader placing at 4th grade level in CLE. We have stuck with CLE. He, too, “feels stupid”, but I think CLE is a strong program, he has been successful with it and a strong foundation in math is important. The most important, I think, because everything builds on what you learned previously. Unlike grammar or history, that is somewhat repetitious. You cannot rush math, either. Or they won’t get it. This is the problem in public schools. A friend of mine teaches ChemA in a local junior college and is disgusted by the lack of even basic math skills her students are coming to her with. I know he feels discouraged, but make sure he is understanding the concepts before moving on.

Thank you! 

[redquilthorse]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:58 PM, Hunter said:

If this were my kid, I would never let him see any curriculum that I was using to prepare ME to teach him. I'd only let him see the pieces, not the whole. I would make up stand alone units on individual topics, to give him a sense of completion.

If I had money to burn I'd want these.

Math on the Level

https://www.mathonthelevel.com

 

Math Mammoth Blue The topical ungraded workbooks

https://www.mathmammoth.com/study_order.php

 

Math Worksheet software

https://www.schoolhousetech.com/math/default.aspx

 

Ray's Arithmetic

Strayer Upton Arithmetic

 

Aufmann Basic College Mathematics. I'd make sure to have him work an occasional problem from a "college" textbook to increase his confidence.

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-College-Mathematics-Available-CourseMate/dp/1439046964

 

Many students that are "behind" get exponentially more "behind". Some students never "catch up". These students have their other strengths. Humans are not made by cookie cutters. Our society acknowledges differing abilities in the sports and arts, but does not afford individuals the same consideration in math and reading. We waste potential. We are inefficient. We all suffer for it, not just the misunderstood students.

I'm not sure I can realistically do this and school my other kids, however, you did give me an idea. I've printed out the placement test for Math Mammoth because it will help me figure out what areas he needs help with the most. And maybe I can mix in targeted lessons from one of these or the Key to series to help him. 

 

[Critterfixer]

Preliminary Sunrise Algebra is on the bottom for ninth grade. It's not in order for some reason. I believe they are offering a textbook option at some point? Might be wrong on that but I just checked and saw the light unit algebra on their page.

[Lisa in the UP of MI]

My oldest son struggled in first and second grade with reading and handwriting and he was easily frustrated (still is, but no where near as badly as he used to be).  It was hard to get much done in any subject.  He's finishing 6th grade now and will be doing pre-algebra next year.  The last two years we've done two lessons a day 4 days a week as often as we could.  And we also worked on multiplication/division flash cards for a while in addition to his regular work.

[MeganW]

Even kids who do great up until then will often start struggling in fourth grade math if they don't know all their math facts cold.  The problems become more than one step, and having to hold your place in a problem and go over to the side to figure out a fact, then go back becomes cumbersome.  Fractions are a nightmare for kids who don't know their facts.  If you know them, the concepts make sense, but if you don't, it is confusing where those "random numbers" are coming from.  

I would do math year-round for a while.

I would do math facts separately from math curriculum.  Call it something else.  "Fact Mastery" or something so that the kid doesn't feel like he is doing math all day.  Hit it for five minutes in the morning and five minutes in the afternoon or evening every single day until he knows every single fact cold.  Even if you aren't quite at the level where this is really needed, you will be there soon and don't want to have to stall out and backtrack.  Future math will go a lot faster with those facts memorized.

I would NOT do Beast Academy with a non-mathy kid.  It's really focused on having the child figure out the concept themselves rather than teaching.  It is phenomenal for my naturally mathy kid, but it would absolutely defeat my others.

 

[Lori D.]

9 hours ago, redquilthorse said:

I probably can't stop and JUST do math facts, but I do realize that I need to spend more time one on one with him practicing them. I think using them helps him remember them. I did buy the CLE math reference chart with the multiplication tables on it, and I've told him he can use it. I think he doesn't always want to bother with getting it out. I'll make sure he gets it out more. 

Actually, my intention was to encourage you to possibly consider *reducing* math fact drill -- stripping it out of the math program, and then just doing a 3 minute practice in a very different format that might click better -- or even drop it entirely, and let your DS just use a math fact chart for now, just as you're already saying you're doing. AND, I was trying to phrase it in a way that didn't knock OKBud's idea and experience. LOL! Trying to be kind to all led to a complete lack of clarity there! (:D

 

9 hours ago, redquilthorse said:

I wish we could drop testing, but to do that would mean we withdraw from our PSP that also has all of their fun classes, field trips, and friends. I never ever let him see his scores, so as long as he learns enough math to not walk out of the test feeling like he didn't know how to do the math, it should be ok. He was fine this year, I was just worried about falling so far behind next year that he feel defeated on the test. But that's probably me worrying too much about a future that hasn't arrived instead of taking one day at a time. ? 

Oh yes, I see what you mean by testing and why you have to do it. What a great way of handling it!

[8filltheheart]

For math facts, I tried to find a post I wrote yrs ago about Math-It, but even though google finds it, it says it does not exist when I click on it. I found this you tube that demonstrates Add It.  Cathy Duffy describes it here: https://cathyduffyreviews.com/homeschool-reviews-core-curricula/math-supplements/3rd-grade/math-it My first grade granddaughter has really struggled with math facts and I started her with this approach last week and in just a week she has mastered all of her doubles, 9s, and 8s. 

 

[ktgrok]

18 hours ago, redquilthorse said:

Well shoot. I was looking at the website and saw that there's no algebra and it goes from 800 to geometry. But the description says it's enough prealgebra to go to algebra from there so I should've read it more closely. So if we go through 700 in 8th grade, he might be ready to go straight to algebra? Or is this only for advanced students? I do want to at least get to algebra in 9th. 

We did CLE through 600, then did another program for pre-algebra instead of 700 and 800. Then algebra after that. 

[redquilthorse]

So, we did the Saxon placement test today just to see where he is. The odd thing is, he performed better on the questions that apply to 6/5 than the earlier questions for 5/4. He was only one shy of passing the section to place into 6/5 but he really had a hard time on the earlier section. So odd. But this was encouraging to me. I figured out he needs to work on division, fractions, and learning math facts. He also needs some review on basic geometry (he couldn’t remember how to find area, but he knew perimeter). He also needs to review multi-digit multiplication. He did much better once I let him use a multiplication table. Not knowing facts really trips him up even more than I realized. So he has some big holes in what he can do rather than just not knowing any 4th grade math at all. I plan to have him do the end of the year test for math mammoth as well and use it as a further diagnostic tool. Then we can hone in on some things for the last few weeks this year and over the summer. Then maybe, just maybe, he won’t be as far behind as I thought. Maybe he will be able to get through what he needs to start 5th grade math by December. I’m hoping. Thank you so much for all of the resources and input you have all given. It has been so helpful. Thank you for being such good cheerleaders! I really really needed that. And so did he!