Breaking news...Otto Warmbier is being/has been released by North Korea Update: 6/19 Otto has died.

[unsinkable]

You can google your favorite news source. He's college student who has been sentenced to 15 years hard labor in North Korea for allegedly trying to steal a poster.

 

Unfortunately, some sources are saying he's been in a coma since last March, perhaps bc of botulism. ??

 

Anyway, I'm glad he's coming home and I hope he is OK or at least will be OK with proper care.

 

Update 6/19: Otto died. :crying:

Edited June 19, 2017 by unsinkable

[Lanny]

Yes the first story did not mention him being in a coma, but this updated story does mention that. He is enroute to the USA now.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/13/north-korea-releases-jailed-us-student-otto-warmbier.html

[Lawyer&Mom]

Imagine finding out your son had been in a coma for a year... those poor parents.

[Liz CA]

Thank God he's coming home. The vague news about being in a coma is alarming though.

[unsinkable]

Bump

[6packofun]

I will be curious to see if the botulism line turns out to be true and not head trauma from his treatment/abuse there.  :(  I pray for his healing.

[Lanny]

I do not understand why, if he has been in a Coma for a long time, why NK did not want to release him, a long time ago.  

[momacacia]

Amazing they kept him alive this long...well, suspicious actually. I can't believe they would give that much care to a prisoner.

[creekland]

One can't change what has happened (though I suspect prayers are welcome - along with medical care upon his return).

 

We can use this to teach our kids about the real world that can be out there so they don't end up on a college tour and snubbing the laws of the country they are in.  The real world can be vicious - over something somewhat meaningless in our world.  Since this lad ended up at UVA, he wasn't "dumb" in an academic sense.  His story could have been any young lad's away from home and feeling like he wanted a souvenir.  After all, it was right there for the taking (or so he believed).  It was a poster - nothing of major value.

 

Scary thought.  

[Paige]

Amazing they kept him alive this long...well, suspicious actually. I can't believe they would give that much care to a prisoner.

 

I imagine they think an American prisoner is valuable leverage. He's worthless to them dead. 

 

Do you think Dennis Rodman had anything to do with his release? That's a weird relationship there, but I won't complain if he can somehow relieve tension. Whoever thought Rodman would be N Korea's Jimmy Carter!

[Farrar]

I imagine they think an American prisoner is valuable leverage. He's worthless to them dead. 

 

Do you think Dennis Rodman had anything to do with his release? That's a weird relationship there, but I won't complain if he can somehow relieve tension. Whoever thought Rodman would be N Korea's Jimmy Carter!

 

Rodman said he has nothing to do with it. I seriously would not call him North Korea's Jimmy Carter. Carter tries to attempt diplomacy on behalf of peace and general Western ideals - with varying results (and, of course, sometimes in controversial ways, but hopefully we can agree he is intelligently well-intended). Rodman is being used by North Korea and can't speak intelligently about any issues around the country except that their ceremonies look cool and their leader seems like a nice guy. He's a tool.

[zoobie]

I imagine they think an American prisoner is valuable leverage. He's worthless to them dead.

 

Do you think Dennis Rodman had anything to do with his release? That's a weird relationship there, but I won't complain if he can somehow relieve tension. Whoever thought Rodman would be N Korea's Jimmy Carter!

Yeah...no. For just one, tiny difference, Jimmy Carter's international diplomacy missions aren't sponsored by online marijuana currency websites.

[MercyA]

I'm glad he's been released, but horrified by the news of his neurological damage.

 

As an aside, it's good to see you back on the chat board, unsinkable.

Edited June 16, 2017 by MercyA

[gingersmom]

I have no doubt he was beaten into a coma. From what I read no one was allowed to see him till very recently ( I think Swedish diplomats go in place of American diplomats). I suspect he is near death and that is why he was released.

 

I want to cry reading the news stories.

[Lanny]

Zoobie I didn't know there is a currency web site for Pot until today. I now suspect that Rodman was not involved in the release. The student had been on a floor of the hotel that was only for employees. I don't know why he went to that floor. I hope he will respond to medical care and wake up from the Coma.

 

Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk

[Farrar]

I feel like the young man is a victim. He's a victim who did something really dumb and entitled... but I'm not sure I believe the North Korean government about where he was and what he did. I mean, they're not a trustworthy source. To my mind, just going to North Korea *for fun* was his primary mistake. But then... it's like, you shouldn't walk into a dangerous place and wave about money and not expect to be robbed... but, on the other hand, it's the robbers who are the bad guys.

[MBM]

Otto's plane recently arrived at Cincinnati and he was taken by ambulance to the hospital.

 

His poor parents and family. I can't imagine what they've also endured.

[Lanny]

I hope there are lab tests that can confirm whether or not he had Botulism and whether he had been beaten. Remember that the NK leader had his Half Brother eliminated in an airport terminal. He is ruthless.

 

Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk

[Liz CA]

One can't change what has happened (though I suspect prayers are welcome - along with medical care upon his return).

 

We can use this to teach our kids about the real world that can be out there so they don't end up on a college tour and snubbing the laws of the country they are in.  The real world can be vicious - over something somewhat meaningless in our world.  Since this lad ended up at UVA, he wasn't "dumb" in an academic sense.  His story could have been any young lad's away from home and feeling like he wanted a souvenir.  After all, it was right there for the taking (or so he believed).  It was a poster - nothing of major value.

 

Scary thought.  

 

Very true. When I was living in Europe during my teens, my mother always said I could not go to the East bloc countries because I had too big of a mouth. She was most likely correct. This could have been me.

I just hope that they will be able to provide top notch care for him and that it does not come too late. I cannot imagine what kind of things would lead to coma other than severe mistreatment.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/university-of-virginia-student-otto-warmbier-in-a-coma-released-from-north-korea/2017/06/13/febba10a-503d-11e7-91eb-9611861a988f_story.html?utm_term=.17e9785658b4

Edited June 14, 2017 by Liz CA

[J-rap]

It makes me sick to think about what he must have endured.  I don't understand why he was in N. Korea in the first place though.  Was it actually part of the semester abroad?  If so, it's hard to believe that the study abroad organization wouldn't have had strict guidelines and recommendations on how to behave in that country in order to stay safe.  I can't imagine what his poor family has had to go through.  

 

[J-rap]

One can't change what has happened (though I suspect prayers are welcome - along with medical care upon his return).

 

We can use this to teach our kids about the real world that can be out there so they don't end up on a college tour and snubbing the laws of the country they are in.  The real world can be vicious - over something somewhat meaningless in our world.  Since this lad ended up at UVA, he wasn't "dumb" in an academic sense.  His story could have been any young lad's away from home and feeling like he wanted a souvenir.  After all, it was right there for the taking (or so he believed).  It was a poster - nothing of major value.

 

Scary thought.  

 

Absolutely.  I'm sure taking a cheap poster seemed like such a little deal to him, and it was a very little deal compared to most criminal acts. But in a country like that, they might easily decide to turn a little deal into a huge deal, sometimes just for political purposes. 

 

When our ds was riding his bike through Turkey for three weeks some years ago there was some political unease going on at the time.  We really tried to impress upon him how important it was for him to not do or say anything that could arouse suspicion. He had long hair at the time and probably stood out more than the typical tourist already because of that.  My dh advised him to get flag stickers from another country (a peaceful, apolitical one) to put on his bag and bike, so that he wouldn't stand out as an American, which our ds did.  

 

(And just an aside...  We've been to Turkey, and it really is lovely there and the people were friendly.  But, you certainly don't want to do anything dumb there, or give the appearance of doing so.)

[Ravin]

It makes me sick to think about what he must have endured.  I don't understand why he was in N. Korea in the first place though.  Was it actually part of the semester abroad?  If so, it's hard to believe that the study abroad organization wouldn't have had strict guidelines and recommendations on how to behave in that country in order to stay safe.  I can't imagine what his poor family has had to go through.  

 

They do. He probably violated the rules in some way or another--whether by doing what N. Korea says he did or not, who knows? 

 

It is unsurprising that an American college student would not successfully conform to the expectations for conduct of a totalitarian regime. 

 

It probably goes without saying that the penalty far exceeded proportionality to the crime, but then there are people serving life without parole for shoplifting a jacket in the U.S., so YMMV.

 

It is a sad situation for his family.

[creekland]

Very true. When I was living in Europe during my teens, my mother always said I could not go to the East bloc countries because I had too big of a mouth. She was most likely correct. This could have been me.

 

See below.

 

Absolutely.  I'm sure taking a cheap poster seemed like such a little deal to him, and it was a very little deal compared to most criminal acts. But in a country like that, they might easily decide to turn a little deal into a huge deal, sometimes just for political purposes. 

 

And both of these quotes are why i feel it is 100% worth it for us as parents to use this incident to teach our kids - at least those old enough to "get it" about the real world.  We can "say" all we want and hope it sinks in, but real incidents can speak more clearly than we ever could.

 

My prayers are with Otto and his family.

[MBM]

Otto's parents are supposed to give an update today. I hope they are not saying goodbye to him. :(

 

ETA: The update is scheduled for Thursday morning now.

Edited June 14, 2017 by MBM

[unsinkable]

The docs are going to update later with more medical details but in the press conference it was said he is stable but has suffered a "severe neurological injury."

 

Heartbreaking

 

Edited to add: His dad said his mom hasn't left Otto's side since he got home.

 

The reporters don't have mics so it is hard to hear the questions. His dad is repeating some questions before he answers.

Edited June 15, 2017 by unsinkable

[MBM]

Ugh. So very sad. It does not sound hopeful.

[wonderchica]

It makes me sick to think about what he must have endured. I don't understand why he was in N. Korea in the first place though. Was it actually part of the semester abroad? If so, it's hard to believe that the study abroad organization wouldn't have had strict guidelines and recommendations on how to behave in that country in order to stay safe. I can't imagine what his poor family has had to go through.

I would be very surprised if there are study abroad options in N. Korea. I don't know for sure, but perhaps he was visiting a neighboring country and entered?

[TravelingChris]

I am shocked that there is study abroad to North Korea and that Americans are allowed to go.  I thought we had currency embargo for money to be spent there.  Considering what that country is (the most brutal totalitarian dictatorship in the world), I do not understand how universities can accept credits from there.  There whole country is a modern day George Orwell's 1984 so I can't see what anything they 'teach'  is worth anything.  I am not a fan of Cuba and it's communist leadership but that is a country where I still could see that something could be learned.  In NK, no.

[Spryte]

This is so heartbreaking.

 

I don't understand the animosity some have shown re: his being there. He wanted to learn, he wanted to travel. I get that. I didn't realize that N Korea was open to travelers but I hadn't really thought about it. I'm not surprised, though, that someone invested in traveling and learning about other cultures would go there.

 

As for following rules in another country, oh my, yes. But I can see how this happened. In HS, I traveled quite a bit. I went to the then-USSR in one of the first groups of HS kids from the US. It doesn't mean I supported their system, it means I wanted to learn first hand who the people were who lived there, what it was like. I wanted to know. It was important to me.

 

And on taking a propaganda poster: I get that, too. There were several boys in my group who disappeared for quite some time. I believe it was 4-6 hours. Our guides and chaperones were beside themselves. The boys were caught trying to buy bootleg flags, which was illegal at the time. They had them stuffed down their pants. :( They were questioned and released, but they were visibly shaken and scared afterward, despite the teenage boy bravado. We'd all bought propaganda posters, legally, but they wanted flags, too. I kept my prop posters for 20 years, finally donated them to a museum.

 

I find it hard to think that his coma resulted from botulism. If he had botulism at all (not unlikely, I suppose) it was probably not well treated, but ... Still, I think mistreatment and beatings was more likely the culprit. That poor child. And family.

 

ETA: my impression was that he was traveling there, possibly with a group through school, like I did, but not studying there. Which is it?

Edited June 15, 2017 by Spryte

[MBM]

Was this study abroad? Otto was in China when he saw an ad from a tourist operator, Young Pioneer Tours, offering a 5-day trip to North Korea. Otto and ten other US citizens were in his group.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

 

 

[unsinkable]

From what I understand...he was in China and thru a travel agency (?) there, went with a group of other students to N.K.

 

In regard to his "crime" I take everything about his coerced confession with a hug* grain of salt.

 

*i was going to fix this but it made me LOL. So it stays.

Edited June 15, 2017 by unsinkable

[MBM]

I question the truth of the alleged incident, too. Just because he confessed, doesn't mean he wasn't coerced to confess something false and even agree to be videotaped after being told they would free him if he did so.

 

I also don't believe the botulism/sleeping pill story.

 

[Liz CA]

I would be very surprised if there are study abroad options in N. Korea. I don't know for sure, but perhaps he was visiting a neighboring country and entered?

 

They were on some kind of tour that led them through NK and then on to Hong Kong - this is what I read in the Post at least.

I cannot help wondering what "severe neurological injury" means.

 

[Liz CA]

During the time of his arrest, Warmbier had been on an organized New Year’s tour in North Korea, a five-day stopover on his way to Hong Kong for a study-abroad trip.

But on his final night in Pyongyang — New Year’s Eve — he apparently went to a staff-only floor of his hotel and attempted to take down a large propaganda sign lauding the regime. He was charged with “hostile acts against the state.â€

Surrounded by North Korean guards, Warmbier delivered a highly scripted â€œconfession†that appeared to have been written for him, and after an hour-long sham trial in March 2016, he was sentenced to 15 years in prison with hard labor.

~Washington Post~

 

[wendyroo]

I don't understand the animosity some have shown re: his being there. He wanted to learn, he wanted to travel. I get that. I didn't realize that N Korea was open to travelers but I hadn't really thought about it. I'm not surprised, though, that someone invested in traveling and learning about other cultures would go there.

 

I don't have animosity about his going, and I certainly don't think he deserved the punishment he received, but he made a very risky choice, and the lottery wasn't in his favor this time.  That is the thing about being an adult - you get to decide to climb volcanoes, go cave diving, ride motorcycles, smoke cigarettes, set off fireworks and travel to dangerous destinations - but sometimes you end up paying a very high price for those choices.

 

The US State Department strongly warns citizens against traveling to North Korea.  Using the Wayback Machine, you can see that even at the beginning of 2016, the State Department specifically warned about arrests and long term detainments, and cautioned that this had happened to people even if they were part of tour groups.  It also outlined that the the United States does not have diplomatic relations with North Korea, so if something did happen, there was little anyone could do to help.

 

It is a tragedy what happened to Otto, but not an unforeseeable or unpreventable one.

 

Wendy

[TravelingChris]

I wonder if his parents even knew he was going to NK then.  They may have done what we are about to do with our dd going on study abroad.  Put them on our credit card.  He may have even just said, I am touring more of Asia or something like that.   Do I think he made a bad mistake by going there- yes.  But I put complete blame on the NK government.  I am praying for him and his parents and any siblings.  I just reiterate that I think no American not on official US business should be going there.   I do not trust anything that government says.

 

As to people going study abroad or just abroad anywhere, learn about restrictions and concerns before going.  Even in totally friendly countries one can easily get detained for something like taking a photograph at an airport or of a bridge or train station (even before all the terrorism concerns which aren't anything new either since many countries including our own have had plenty of terrorism before the more recent ones starting in 2001) but from general security reasons like invasions.  I know at least one country in Europe had such restrictions.

[Spryte]

I don't have animosity about his going, and I certainly don't think he deserved the punishment he received, but he made a very risky choice, and the lottery wasn't in his favor this time. That is the thing about being an adult - you get to decide to climb volcanoes, go cave diving, ride motorcycles, smoke cigarettes, set off fireworks and travel to dangerous destinations - but sometimes you end up paying a very high price for those choices.

 

The US State Department strongly warns citizens against traveling to North Korea. Using the Wayback Machine, you can see that even at the beginning of 2016, the State Department specifically warned about arrests and long term detainments, and cautioned that this had happened to people even if they were part of tour groups. It also outlined that the the United States does not have diplomatic relations with North Korea, so if something did happen, there was little anyone could do to help.

 

It is a tragedy what happened to Otto, but not an unforeseeable or unpreventable one.

 

Wendy

Oh yes, I agree.

 

I'm not seeing the animosity on this thread, I should have specified that I don't think anyone here is saying, "He got what he deserved." I think there is compassion here. And a drive to make sure our newly adult kids understand that their choices can have serious consequences. I certainly feel that, too.

 

Sadly, I've seen some rather cruel comments elsewhere, and I can't understand how a family's tragedy can be treated that way. :(

 

Sorry if you felt my comment was directed at you (or anyone else). It really wasn't. It was more of a general comment about animosity that seems to pop up about kids who travel to places that are, errr, off the beaten path and maybe seen as risky because they are unusual. Everyone should follow the state department guidelines wrt travel, though, and like I said, I didn't realize traveling to N Korea was even on the table. It certainly isn't on my go-to list for myself or kids. Yikes.

[MBM]

Extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain. Don't know cause but is often seen as a result of cardopulmonary arrest where blood supply to brain is inadequate for a period of time resulting in the death of brain tissue.

 

:(

Edited June 15, 2017 by MBM

[Lanny]

"Warmbier's state was likely a result of a cardio or pulmonary arrest."  They have not seen evidence that he was beaten, so far, such as unhealed fractures, when they do xray and other examinations.  I hope they can help him wake from the Coma and recover.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/15/otto-warmbier-has-extensive-brain-damage-doctor-says.html

[unsinkable]

Some info from the docs news conference:

 

Otto in a state of unresponsive wakefulness.

 

Severe loss of brain tissue

 

Has not spoken

 

Spontaneous eye opening. And blinking

 

No signs of understanding language, responding to verbal commands or awareness of his surroundings.

 

These injuries normally associated with cardio pulmonary arrest but there is no way to know what led to him being this way.

 

No comment on prognosis or future treatment.

 

XXXXXXX

 

I don't even know what to say. :crying:

[Liz CA]

Extensive loss of brain tissue in all regions of his brain. Don't know cause but is often seen as a result of cardopulmonary arrest where blood supply to brain is inadequate for a period of time resulting in the death of brain tissue.

 

:(

 

I haven't seen news reports...is this the official diagnosis? If so, how horrible and what a waste of a young life.

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by Liz CA

[unsinkable]

I guess we were all posting the sad news at the same time.

[MBM]

Sadly, he will probably not heal.

 

His mother has not left his side.

[Caroline]

This is just so awful and sad and just, I can't think of words.

[Innisfree]

All the news seems so grim these last few days. I keep thinking about this poor family, and the people in that tower in London, and Scalise. So much sadness.

[TravelingChris]

As I thought, the Washington Post story with Otto's roommate discounts even the poster stealing.  He thinks he was taken because he is an American.  And he adds, even if he did take the poster, the initial sentence and what happened to him is barbaric.

[Farrar]

This is so heartbreaking.

 

I don't understand the animosity some have shown re: his being there. He wanted to learn, he wanted to travel. I get that. I didn't realize that N Korea was open to travelers but I hadn't really thought about it. I'm not surprised, though, that someone invested in traveling and learning about other cultures would go there.

 

I absolutely would never want to victim blame in this situation. In no way can anyone say reasonably that he deserved what he got. Even the whole, "he was an overprivileged young Westerner" line is a little specious to me because it assumes that he did what they said, which I don't entirely believe.

 

But why would anyone want to visit North Korea? It's like he read The Hunger Games and said, ooh, I think I'd head for District 11 and see what that's like. Or he read Lord of the Rings and thought Mordor tourism was the way to go. Or that seeing what being a Handmaid in Gilead would really be like.

 

Curiosity about the world is all well and good, but why would you visit Stalin's Russia at the height of the Cold War? Or Nazi Germany after the war began? Unless you're there for a purpose, I simply will never understand wanting to visit North Korea for the heck of it. And I say this as someone who has visited a lot of places and would like to visit a lot of places and thinks that the risks involved in travel are usually worth it. I mean, there are plenty of risky places in the world that are potentially worth visiting - I wouldn't say this about visiting places that have seen conflict recently like Egypt or Ukraine. I wouldn't say it about places that often make it to the most dangerous cities to visit lists, like Rio or parts of Mexico. Heck, I took my kids to Cape Town and it often makes those lists. There was a piece in WaPo recently about a homeschool family that runs missions in dangerous parts of the world and I didn't think they were off their rocker. But... North Korea is run by a completely irrational leader and is probably the most oppressive, Kafkaesque place on the planet. Why would anyone go there if they didn't have to or weren't called to for some humanitarian reason?

[Spryte]

Yeh, I don't get it either. But clearly there is interest in it, and enough to make it profitable for a company to run tours with guides, etc. I would absolutely discourage my own kids from doing it, and would have no interest in going myself.

 

But the victim blaming is sad, and bothers me to hear.

[Farrar]

I agree. The victim blaming is really sad. He didn't deserve this. The North Korean government is the bad guys.

 

I assume tourism there goes into the government's pocket and, unlike tourism in many other troubled parts of the world, doesn't really improve the local economy in any real way. It's just baffling on a number of levels to me that anyone goes at all. It's not like... say... visiting China in the late 70's, when they were starting to open up again and even though your movements were controlled and the government was oppressive, you were having a positive impact on the economy and part of a genuinely loosening up. This is just oppression tourism.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Farrar

[Guest]

I am honestly surprised they kept him alive this whole time and he didn't just "disappear". I really wonder what their (NK's) play is on this one. But I guess wondering what is in the mind of a psychopath is sort of pointless........