What would you do with a child that *hates* math?

[busymama7]

She is 11, almost 12. Working in 407 of CLE which we switched to from gamma in MUS last summer. I was hoping to accelerate her and catch her up but she is just not capable of going faster.

 

I'd work with that but she hates it. Complains daily. Writes it all over her paper etc. she wants to be a veterinarian so I've discussed with her many times how essential strong math skills are. It's not really helping. I think she hates it so much because she's just not good at it.

 

I have asked before about a low level of numerical sense and have been suggested dyscalculia resources such as the Ronit Bird books. I don't have extra $ at the moment to buy anything but could this summer.

 

I am so tempted to just drop the curriculum and play math games and try to get to her interest and understanding up but since she is already so far behind it terrifies me. (She is 6th grade this year although has a July Bday).

 

I am not one of those learning has to be fun homeschoolers. I require my kids to do what I assign and such. But I feel like this is a crazy futile effort and really some other approach may work better? Maybe?

 

She is my 5th, 2nd girl. My other girl had similar struggles and we honestly never fixed them even with curriculum jumping. She loved LOF but I'm not sure she mastered anything from it. She's at college and finally is catching up in math so sometimes I wonder if it is literally devleopmental.

Thanks for any ideas.

[HomeAgain]

I would offer her a couple of choices if I could. Encourage her to look at a couple of programs that meet your budget and her needs. I'd probably invest in a few things like the Right Start games or Ronit Bird regardless, maybe a set of Dragonbox apps too. But having the choice may help her take more ownership over her feelings in math and open a discussion on where exactly she's struggling.

[J-rap]

This reminds me of one of my dd's who really struggled with math at home.  I didn't use the programs you are using, so I can't offer advice with that. But I tried to make it as painless as possible for her just to get it done.  So, instead of doing every question, for example, we might just do every other question.  If she got less than one or two wrong, then we'd move on.  Cutting her math lesson questions in half really helped.  But honestly, I feel like I really had to hold her hand the whole way.  She was making it through okay, but she never really had a solid grasp.

 

Until college, when she didn't pass the placement test and had to take two math classes again, which she was so bummed out about.  Except that she finally got it!  She actually got top scores in her class, and it even felt pretty easy.  So I do believe it was a developmental thing in her case.  I don't know if there is something else I could have done to help her reach that sooner.

[bibiche]

Have you ever tried MEP? It is a different approach that might appeal. And it is free, so no money lost if it doesn't work.

http://www.cimt.org.uk/projects/mepres/primary/index.htm

[marbel]

I have a child like this. I deeply regret not getting her a math tutor or paying for outside math classes early on. When she took high school algebra at community college (because of placement tests), she finally felt that it clicked. She needed the right teacher, not just the right program. She will never love math and is not headed to a field where higher math is needed, but it would have saved us a lot of heartache if I'd not been hesitant to spend the money on quality​ math education for her early on.

[gardenmom5]

does she have a mastery of *basic* math?  have you done any general assessments on her math skills lately?

I would consider going backwards and start over where she's at if that's what she needs. 

 

she may hate it becasue she's confused.  1ds wasn't a "math" kid. he had learning disabilities, and he struggled and struggled, hated math, and topped out at stats in high school (with the grades to show it). . . . the other's all went through beginning calculus.

 

now . . . he's an engineering student and doing very well in his math classes.  and physics and engineering and chemistry - all things that require a lot of math.  he we onto khan academy - and it turned out he didn't have a good understanding of basic math.  he never mastered it. (for various reasons).  then he worked his way up (by himself) and tested into calculus when he started his engineering program.  he's finishing up his second year.

 

eta: when ds started over - he went from starting over with basic math to testing into calculus in under five months just by doing khan academy  (online, and free.)

Edited April 20, 2017 by gardenmom5

[Scarlett]

does she have a mastery of *basic* math?  have you done any general assessments on her math skills lately?

I would consider going backwards and start over where she's at if that's what she needs. 

 

she may hate it becasue she's confused.  1ds wasn't a "math" kid. he had learning disabilities, and he struggled and struggled, hated math, and topped out at stats in high school (with the grades to show it). . . . the other's all went through beginning calculus.

 

now . . . he's an engineering student and doing very well in his math classes.  and physics and engineering and chemistry - all things that require a lot of math.  he we onto khan academy - and it turned out he didn't have a good understanding of basic math.  he never mastered it. (for various reasons).  then he worked his way up (by himself) and tested into calculus when he started his engineering program.  he's finishing up his second year.

 

eta: when ds started over - he went from starting over with basic math to testing into calculus in under five months just by doing khan academy  (online, and free.)

 

 

This is my take on it too.  Most kids are perfectly capable of 'getting' it, but all have different speeds and time frames and ways of learning.  Math is so so important...EVEN if they aren't going into higher math....I definitely would make it a priority.

[Guest]

I switched to the preferred mode of instruction and satisfied the 'why'. Had to go back to sm2 for some strands,.but we went thru and satisfied all questions. Moving forward,we needed an algebra that was not all verbal...Dolciani with its graphical and symbolic worked like a charm. kid learned to go with male instructors in college, the females always were auditory only and that doesn't work for him.

[busymama7]

does she have a mastery of *basic* math? have you done any general assessments on her math skills lately?

I would consider going backwards and start over where she's at if that's what she needs.

 

she may hate it becasue she's confused. 1ds wasn't a "math" kid. he had learning disabilities, and he struggled and struggled, hated math, and topped out at stats in high school (with the grades to show it). . . . the other's all went through beginning calculus.

 

now . . . he's an engineering student and doing very well in his math classes. and physics and engineering and chemistry - all things that require a lot of math. he we onto khan academy - and it turned out he didn't have a good understanding of basic math. he never mastered it. (for various reasons). then he worked his way up (by himself) and tested into calculus when he started his engineering program. he's finishing up his second year.

 

eta: when ds started over - he went from starting over with basic math to testing into calculus in under five months just by doing khan academy (online, and free.)

I do believe her basic math is fine. She rarely makes mistakes with any of that.

 

The things she struggling with in CLE are things like area of a triangle and rounding and the word problems.

 

I'm very impressed with the progress she had made. Her times tables are all but totally memorized. And she can long multiply and divide just fine. It's all the other little bits that are taught that she's not remembering.

 

I really don't want to try another program. We are making progress just not as fast as I had hoped. I'm just wanting something to help her see the point and build some better numeracy fluency. I do cross out lots of problems to cut down the time but the lessons are still very long and by the time we finally get through it there is no time/energy to play math games or anything.

[busymama7]

Let me explain this better:

 

I am happy with the progress she is making and do believe the curriculum is fine. I don't think that switching will help. I did that last time and it just caused more delays catching up.

 

I'm just trying to figure out how to help her not hate it so much. I can't really shorten the lessons any more than I have.

 

But sometimes I wonder if taking a break from it all and play games and building other skills would actually pay off in benefits in the end either in attitude or skills even though that seems so scary right now because she's functioning so far below grade level already.

Edited April 20, 2017 by busymama7

[HomeAgain]

You may need to approach it differently. Schedule an hour for math. Set the timer for 45 minutes. When it goes off, switch to math games for 15. Her brain may just need to see things a variety of ways. We loved how MEP was scheduled with an activity switch every few minutes and breaks built in. It really cemented the concepts, and while it felt like slogging during the early lessons he sped up quickly.

 

I know it can feel frustrating to leave a page half done, but if it means you get the time to add variety it may be a whole lot better.

[busymama7]

You may need to approach it differently. Schedule an hour for math. Set the timer for 45 minutes. When it goes off, switch to math games for 15. Her brain may just need to see things a variety of ways. We loved how MEP was scheduled with an activity switch every few minutes and breaks built in. It really cemented the concepts, and while it felt like slogging during the early lessons he sped up quickly.

 

I know it can feel frustrating to leave a page half done, but if it means you get the time to add variety it may be a whole lot better.

Thanks. An hour is just so long to be doing something you hate so much. I feel for her. I still make her do it but I would like to make it a bit more pleasant.

 

I wish I could afford a tutor but that is not possible. And I do wonder about the development side of it and if just being patient until she matures would help more than forcing it to the point of misery at this point.

 

Someone mentioned the clue finders games on the un schooling thread and I'm thinking of getting some for summer. Any idea if I would just get the one for the grade level she is working on? CLE seems a little advanced so not sure about that.

 

Thanks

[wintermom]

What does she actually hate about math? Is it repetitive, a lot of writing, she feels like a failure because the math book says it's 4th grade?  Are there holes in her knowledge because of moving from MUS to a completely different kind of math program? 

 

Honestly, I think talking about math needed in the college years could back-fire on your dd's motivation right now. It sounds like she needs something to really build up her confidence and to see herself as smart. Fun is not as important as feeling competent. I'd drop the level 4 math book, and just make up questions for her. Take them from other, higher level books. Help her work through them, and then tell her that they are from level 7 or 8, or where ever you got them from. So much of the math questions are similar from level 4 up to level 8. You could really pump up her confidence that she already knows a whole lot, and will gain the ability to focus and remember with time, patience and practice. 

[busymama7]

What does she actually hate about math? Is it repetitive, a lot of writing, she feels like a failure because the math book says it's 4th grade? Are there holes in her knowledge because of moving from MUS to a completely different kind of math program?

 

Honestly, I think talking about math needed in the college years could back-fire on your dd's motivation right now. It sounds like she needs something to really build up her confidence and to see herself as smart. Fun is not as important as feeling competent. I'd drop the level 4 math book, and just make up questions for her. Take them from other, higher level books. Help her work through them, and then tell her that they are from level 7 or 8, or where ever you got them from. So much of the math questions are similar from level 4 up to level 8. You could really pump up her confidence that she already knows a whole lot, and will gain the ability to focus and remember with time, patience and practice.

She hates it because she's not good at it. It's hard. The whole thing is hard for her. We have used out magnatiles to demonstrate that the area of a triangle is half the area of the square/rectangle a good 15 times over the last couple months and when she sees the problems she still completely messes it up. She knows that 2 triangles fit in a rectangle but can't make the numbers mean that.

 

That's why she does well on the simple computation problems but bombs anything that requires thinking at all. For some reason she has a huge brain freeze at rounding too. It's kinda ridiculous. Asked to round 54.9 and she will answer something like 500. Just no clue what she's doing. This is despite doing dozens of these problems with her step by step.

 

I just am sad that she hates it. I want to step back and figure out a way to build her confidence but I just don't know how.

 

I don't think she cares that much that she's behind. We have always stressed just working where we are, that we aren't thing to fit into the school box and she's watched several brothers struggle with dyslexia and read really late. It's just that every day is pure torture doing stuff that barely makes any sense (or makes none at all).

[matrips]

Any chance of doing 30-40 minutes of her cle math, and then letting her doncorresponding math problems on the computer? My kid who 'hates' math, doesn't really. He hates doing bookwork and when he finishes a section, I say great, do another. Yes, I know that's not inspirational! Anyway, this year I couldn't take it anymore and he's doing Alcumus/AoPS. It follows our AoPS book perfectly, so it was an easy match. He is so happy doing an hour or more of math because it rewards him with points and quests. More fun than mom I guess. The problems are tough, but that doesn't bother him. He's actually very good at math, and progressing well. He just hated it the other way.

[The Governess]

When you go over the concepts she is having trouble with, does she still not understand? Or does she understand, but then forgets/can't do the work independently the next time the topic comes up? If it's the second, you might think of putting together a reference page for her for each concept/type of word problem she is struggling with, with all of the steps listed out in a very detailed way. Then see if she can use the reference page to do it independently. This will help her internalize the procedure/what she needs to think about as she works. After she can do this with confidence, work towards doing it without reference.

 

I would also work problems on a whiteboard with her, with you solving and her watching as you explain out loud all of your reasoning with each step. Then do a similar problem and have her do the process with you. Once she becomes fairly confident with a concept, have her ocassionally work a problem in this manner for you completely on her own.

 

I have a dd that isn't very confident with her math. She has gotten better, but it has taken a lot of work. I have found that she needs to build confidence in her ability to follow a procedure/algorithm, and then once she has that down well we can go back and discuss things more conceptually/try new methods/make connections and really cement things. I know this sounds backwards, but for an anxious kid it helps her feel more competent and then she is a more willing learner. So I now use Saxon to introduce topics and follow up with Singapore a year behind.

[busymama7]

My kid is dycalculic. He *hates* math and performs poorly. He'll never catch up to grade level. He has trouble with fifth grade math and he's almost 16. For us, what worked on building confidence was to get a couple workbooks from critical thinking company. I think we started with 4th grade level. He's struggling with fifth grade and I'm trying the geometry workbook on him now to see if he understands it any better since geometry is so different. Doing this has helped with some of those basic things, but he'll always need a calculator, even for basic addition. If you suspect dyscalculia, i would definitely not make her work without a calculator, ever. It's what my ds' psychologist told us was a *must*. Also, I'd go slow and not make her work for very long.

That's really interesting. I have wondered about dyscalculia but she does fine with the actual computations for the most part. I mean she makes mistakes. But that's not the big problem. so I wonder if it is something else.

 

I just am so terrified of getting father behind that I don't want to scrap the workbooks for a time and just work with numbers in a more fun setting it. Even though I think it might help in the long run.

 

The thread on unschooled math is what stirred all this up again for me. I've held the same opinions as many on there that's it's better to just do little bits of math daily then run into the need to catch up quickly mess that may or may not end well. So I require daily math from age 5. With this daughter I saw the signs and was determined not to end up so far behind again like her sister and yet here we are. Stuck at about the same age/stage. And while I don't want her to be behind, I don't want her to hate it either. Honestly, I think pushing so hard with my older daughter just made it so much worse and turned it into math phobia. So why can't I step back? Because I'm so fearful of having so much to make up later. At never being able to catch her up.

 

But I just want another way. She is a smart talented girl. Highly artistic and avid reader who knows so much about so many things. Why does math being hard have to be such a defining thing?

 

I only mentioned the college math briefly in passing when she complained about never needing this stupid stuff. I reminded her that she certainly need good math skills to be a veterinarian.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My 11 year old wrote on an Easter egg he was coloring "I hate math". 

 

mmm...so yeah...

 

I've tried everything to help him like it.  He just doesn't.  He doesn't even really struggle with it.  He just says he hates it. 

 

Sometimes people just hate stuff.  I try to make it quick.  And we get on with our day. 

[Scarlett]

My 11 year old wrote on an Easter egg he was coloring "I hate math". 

 

mmm...so yeah...

 

I've tried everything to help him like it.  He just doesn't.  He doesn't even really struggle with it.  He just says he hates it. 

 

Sometimes people just hate stuff.  I try to make it quick.  And we get on with our day. 

 

 

Yep.  And I tell ds, 'well, sorry you hate it but it is a necessary part of life, so you should probably work on liking it just a bit more.'

[rebcoola]

I would look into testing.  I would also try something like prodigy it won't teach her but it is super engaging practice and you can choose the types of problems.

[wintermom]

She hates it because she's not good at it. It's hard. The whole thing is hard for her. We have used out magnatiles to demonstrate that the area of a triangle is half the area of the square/rectangle a good 15 times over the last couple months and when she sees the problems she still completely messes it up. She knows that 2 triangles fit in a rectangle but can't make the numbers mean that.

 

That's why she does well on the simple computation problems but bombs anything that requires thinking at all. For some reason she has a huge brain freeze at rounding too. It's kinda ridiculous. Asked to round 54.9 and she will answer something like 500. Just no clue what she's doing. This is despite doing dozens of these problems with her step by step.

 

I just am sad that she hates it. I want to step back and figure out a way to build her confidence but I just don't know how.

 

I don't think she cares that much that she's behind. We have always stressed just working where we are, that we aren't thing to fit into the school box and she's watched several brothers struggle with dyslexia and read really late. It's just that every day is pure torture doing stuff that barely makes any sense (or makes none at all).

 

Maybe keep playing around with real-life objects. Round with money. Do area with paper geometric shapes (a rectangle, and the cut it in half to make 2 triangles).

 

Have you tried letting one of your older children help out your dd? My dd had a lot of difficulty with math in her younger teens, and now at almost 17 she makes an amazing "tutor" for her younger brothers. 

[busymama7]

Maybe keep playing around with real-life objects. Round with money. Do area with paper geometric shapes (a rectangle, and the cut it in half to make 2 triangles).

 

Have you tried letting one of your older children help out your dd? My dd had a lot of difficulty with math in her younger teens, and now at almost 17 she makes an amazing "tutor" for her younger brothers.

Both older siblings still at home would not be a good fit for this. The oldest maybe possibly if he could be patient enough but he works and is home only barely long enough to do his own school.

[Anne in CA]

I do believe her basic math is fine. She rarely makes mistakes with any of that.

 

The things she struggling with in CLE are things like area of a triangle and rounding and the word problems.

 

I'm very impressed with the progress she had made. Her times tables are all but totally memorized. And she can long multiply and divide just fine. It's all the other little bits that are taught that she's not remembering.

 

I really don't want to try another program. We are making progress just not as fast as I had hoped. I'm just wanting something to help her see the point and build some better numeracy fluency. I do cross out lots of problems to cut down the time but the lessons are still very long and by the time we finally get through it there is no time/energy to play math games or anything.

One thing that might help with this is to make it more of a "game". I would not cross off problems but I would cut deals. I would say, "I'm setting the timer for 4 minutes. If you get four problems done then I'll cut out the next two. Okay, now, four minutes again," and then she got to cross off her own problems.

[RootAnn]

But I just want another way. She is a smart talented girl. Highly artistic and avid reader who knows so much about so many things. Why does math being hard have to be such a defining thing?\

 

I have one like you describe. She hates math. She knows she isn't as "good" at math as some of her siblings. We had to completely restart & redo one year of math. We've had to slow down, add supplements, add worksheets, do ONE division problem every day for a year because two was one too many, etc. We were cooking together today and we had to halve a recipe which called for 20 servings. Pepper was 1/4 tsp before halving. She said, "I don't like to go below 1/4 because it just gets confusing." So, the soup had extra pepper in it.  :lol: She knows she needs to get further in math. She works hard. She's better at it than she used to be. 

 

No advice, just commiseration. And to tell you she has never liked math games unless they are really, really easy. (I have her play against her youngest two siblings.) We just stay the course & keep moving forward.

[ktgrok]

Honestly, if she struggled conceptually but can memorize well I'd work on memorizing rules/formulas/etc. Ideally she'll get the  concepts eventually, but some kids do better learning and applying the rule and then getting the concept. So have her memorize the formula for area of a triangle, just like you had her memorize math facts. Same for other things. Use mnemonics when you can, for order of operations, etc 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Honestly, if she struggled conceptually but can memorize well I'd work on memorizing rules/formulas/etc. Ideally she'll get the  concepts eventually, but some kids do better learning and applying the rule and then getting the concept. So have her memorize the formula for area of a triangle, just like you had her memorize math facts. Same for other things. Use mnemonics when you can, for order of operations, etc 

 

This is how I am.  For whatever reason the concept doesn't always click right away.  Sometimes it takes awhile or something later on will make a light bulb go off and I think...OHHHH THAT is what that means.  Sometimes I think it could be the delivery of the concept as well.  Some ways just work better than others. 

 

I think with my math hater, he is just bored.  The stuff right now we have to get through IS rather boring.  So I have some "fun" books we use sometimes and he responds really well to that.