Chicago mayor proposes new rule - No high school diploma without acceptance

[Catwoman]

​I think this is a terrible idea.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chicago-mayor-no-high-school-diploma-without-acceptance-letter/ar-BBzrR8W?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

 

Why should the high schools be able to dictate what students do after​ high school and deny them a diploma if they choose not to continue their formal educations? Some kids just want to get a job, not attend college or trade school, do a formal apprenticeship, or join the military. Heck, even if a kid wants to live in his parents' basement and play video games all day, if he earned that high school diploma, he should still receive it.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Catwoman

[Guest]

Well, it does say that trade schools, apprenticeships, military, etc, are acceptable.

 

I'm wondering about the kids who want to take a gap year? Or join Peace/AmeriCorps? That sort of thing?

[Guest]

Maybe he should focus on providing a way for kids to not get shot on the way to school before tackling such grandiose schemes...........

[Arcadia]

My Chicago friend's twins are freshman and would be affected if this proposal pass. They are aiming for college but what happens if either of them wants to take a gap year before applying.

[retiredHSmom]

yep, sounds like Big Brother state in action.  As my husband would say "A+ for the idea C- for execution". We do have a right to do nothing at all if we want, even if it is a very bad idea

[Daria]

Given that Chicago has schools that only require a HS diploma, have 100% admissions, and don't have an admissions fee, I think this is fine.

 

I would have a problem if the rule was that you could only graduate if you were enrolled, planning to go, etc . . . But a rule that says that you need to at least investigate the idea of college, and learn what your options are?  And to demonstrate that knowledge by filling out the application to a school that will accept you?  I think that's fine.

 

Many kids grow up without ever knowing that college is an option for them.  This communicates otherwise to them.

 

Our school system has a graduation requirement that you take one of the following: PSAT, SAT, ACT, or Accuplacer (placement test for CC, can be taken for free at the HS).  Seems reasonable to me.  Requiring a specific score would not.

[AnnE-girl]

Um, how about doing something about the already terrible dropout rate before making getting a diploma even more difficult for some students? And where are they planning to get the money to administer this?

[Catwoman]

Well, it does say that trade schools, apprenticeships, military, etc, are acceptable.

 

I'm wondering about the kids who want to take a gap year? Or join Peace/AmeriCorps? That sort of thing?

 

Yes, but why should they have to do any of that?

 

If they pass their high school classes, they should get their diploma. No one has the right to tell them they have to do more than that. The school doesn't have the right to control their lives after they finish high school.

[Daria]

My Chicago friend's twins are freshman and would be affected if this proposal pass. They are aiming for college but what happens if either of them wants to take a gap year before applying.

 

They apply to their local CC and then don't go?

 

Then, having filled out the paperwork once they'll be in a better position to apply the next year?

[Catwoman]

Given that Chicago has schools that only require a HS diploma, have 100% admissions, and don't have an admissions fee, I think this is fine.

 

I would have a problem if the rule was that you could only graduate if you were enrolled, planning to go, etc . . . But a rule that says that you need to at least investigate the idea of college, and learn what your options are?  And to demonstrate that knowledge by filling out the application to a school that will accept you?  I think that's fine.

 

Many kids grow up without ever knowing that college is an option for them.  This communicates otherwise to them.

 

Our school system has a graduation requirement that you take one of the following: PSAT, SAT, ACT, or Accuplacer (placement test for CC, can be taken for free at the HS).  Seems reasonable to me.  Requiring a specific score would not.

 

They don't need to apply. They need to be ACCEPTED. And then, presumably, they would have to attend.

 

Not all kids have an interest in college, trade school, or the military.

 

And all this communicates to them is that they can't be trusted to make wise decisions for themselves after high school, so their adult life choices have to be "approved."

Edited April 5, 2017 by Catwoman

[Guest]

Ugh. At what age do people finally get to be independent adults??

[Guest]

They don't need to apply. They need to be ACCEPTED. And then, presumably, they would have to attend.

 

Not all kids have an interest in college, trade school, or the military.

 

And all this communicates to them is that they can't be trusted to make wise decisions for themselves after high school, so their adult life choices have to be "approved."

 

Amen!!! We don't need 14th grade. We need adults who can make adult decisions, serve their communities, and support themselves and their families. What if they want to start their own business? What if they want to travel? It's no one's business but their's. Ugh, that article pissed me off. 

 

Cities and politicians with the fiscal responsibility of crack addicts don't get to tell 18 year olds how to live their lives. If you're old enough to take a bullet for your country, you're old enough to decide what you want to do when your time in high school is done. 

[Farrar]

This is just absurd. Aim to make college an option for all kids, absolutely. But our whole cultural mentality around college for all makes me ill. And particularly for lower income people who weren't served well by public schools, it has led to a culture of preying on people to push them into for profit institutions which milk them dry and make them accrue insane amounts of debt. Do a better job for those kids so they're not at risk for those schemes later in life. And so they're equipped better in the first place. And let kids take time before driving them into a career path. Gah. Absurd. Just absurd.

[kiana]

What a crock of ... excrement. 

 

So the kid who wants to take some time and work for a while and think about what to do can't get a diploma. The kid who needs to go directly into employment because his family (I mean, some of these are parents) can't get a diploma. 

 

Frankly I think it's unconscionable that we're trying to make sure everyone graduates from high school AND make high school mean "universally college-ready" at the same time, and the last thing we need is to push for more of that. 

[bethben]

What about the students who just want to work after school is out?  Or start their own business?  It just seems like not giving students a diploma who earned it and need it for a better paying job is pushing them into poverty because better paying jobs do require a high school diploma.  

[Joker]

I think it's silly but the few articles I've read all state it's just a way to make them aware and think about continuing after high school. It says all CPS students are automatically accepted into certain colleges (the CCs I guess?). No article says they have to go, just do enough of the paperwork to get an acceptance letter. 

[Farrar]

It's also... institutions should not make requirements that they can't be in control of. Public school is not in control of who gets accepted to college/military/trade program/(I assume Americorps would be included in any final version). They're just not. Even if the schools pay for the fees to apply (which, ugh, what a waste if someone doesn't want to attend), either some kids will fulfill the school requirements and not get accepted. Or... for profit we take everyone schools will just clean up on the application fees and it'll be a useless hoop.

[SKL]

Sounds insane to me.

 

Besides the alternative plans the PPs have mentioned, what about people who want to start their own business?  What about people who move after high school?  And what, pray tell, is wrong with just getting a good old-fashioned job?  Isn't that better than a lot of young people in Chicago are doing right now?

[Joker]

It's also... institutions should not make requirements that they can't be in control of. Public school is not in control of who gets accepted to college/military/trade program/(I assume Americorps would be included in any final version). They're just not. Even if the schools pay for the fees to apply (which, ugh, what a waste if someone doesn't want to attend), either some kids will fulfill the school requirements and not get accepted. Or... for profit we take everyone schools will just clean up on the application fees and it'll be a useless hoop.

 

The articles I've read said all graduates of Chicago public schools are automatically accepted into their City Colleges, which are CCs.

 

Again, I think the policy is silly but just pointing out that what I've read states they all will be accepted.

[chiguirre]

I agree with Daria especially since CC is free for students who have at least a B average.

 

Chicago Public Schools students would have to show acceptance into continuing education, a trade or the armed services in order to graduate from high school.

Emanuel said the plan is a continuation of the city’s efforts to provide more access to higher education, including free community college for students with a B average or better.

 

​And there is a waiver provision.

 

The plan would allow students in special circumstances to waive the requirement. Undocumented immigrants, English language learners and currently incarcerated students would be able to apply for a waiver with Chicago Public Schools.

 

​This would really mean that students would have to formulate a plan and talk to a guidance counselor about it. Some kids would probably learn about opportunities they didn't know they had. Some kids will do the bare minimum to be free of the system but applying to a 100% acceptance rate CC isn't very onerous. Kids with special needs spend a lot of time planning for after high school as part of their counselling and IEP procedures. Extending at least a bare minimum of that kind of planning to the general population is probably a good idea.

[SKL]

Oh and how about people (like me) who can barely force themselves to stay in school past their 16th birthday because traditional school isn't fun for everyone?  What are those people going to do when they find out they have to do it for an additional 2 more years just to get a stinking piece of paper?

[Guest]

Sounds insane to me.

 

Besides the alternative plans the PPs have mentioned, what about people who want to start their own business? What about people who move after high school? And what, pray tell, is wrong with just getting a good old-fashioned job? Isn't that better than a lot of young people in Chicago are doing right now?

I spoke with a guy today who works in a local factory. He makes $100k/year and pays $200/month in health insurance with a $3k oop max. Sure makes me look like an idiot for paying $50k for a useless degree.

[Guest]

It's also... institutions should not make requirements that they can't be in control of. Public school is not in control of who gets accepted to college/military/trade program/(I assume Americorps would be included in any final version). They're just not. Even if the schools pay for the fees to apply (which, ugh, what a waste if someone doesn't want to attend), either some kids will fulfill the school requirements and not get accepted. Or... for profit we take everyone schools will just clean up on the application fees and it'll be a useless hoop.

 

I would LOVE to follow the money trail on this one. Exactly who/what is lobbying for this, because he didn't just pull this idea out of thin air!!  College is too big of money for me to buy for one moment that this is some type of optimistic, selfless gesture to open doors for high schoolers. I wonder if Mr. David Coleman has any involvement..........

Edited April 5, 2017 by texasmom33

[Catwoman]

The articles I've read said all graduates of Chicago public schools are automatically accepted into their City Colleges, which are CCs.

 

Again, I think the policy is silly but just pointing out that what I've read states they all will be accepted.

 

But if they have no interest in attending, the kids shouldn't have to jump through hoops and fill out a bunch of useless forms, just so they can get the high school diploma they have already earned.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Catwoman

[SKL]

And I don't understand the waiver provisions.  Why should a diploma be given to people in those groups but denied to people who meet traditional requirements but just don't want to be told to choose from a specific list of options after high school?

[Farrar]

The articles I've read said all graduates of Chicago public schools are automatically accepted into their City Colleges, which are CCs.

 

Again, I think the policy is silly but just pointing out that what I've read states they all will be accepted.

 

Sigh. I still object just based on the whole philosophy/mindset. This means it's just a rubber stamp program. And it does make me curious about the money. Like, being eligible for automatic acceptance isn't the same as acceptance. If kids are forced to fill out a $50 application fee just to get their high school diplomas, I think that's pretty cruddy. Of course, the whole public schools are free thing seems to be a ship that sailed some time in the last few decades anyway.

[Joker]

But if they have no interest in attending, the kids shouldn't have to jump through hoops and fill out a bunch of useless forms, just so they can get the high school diploma they have already earned.

 

I kind of agree, but both of my dc are in public high school and doing this would be far from the most ridiculous thing they've had to do. A lot of what they, and we as parents, do in public school is jumping through hoops just to get that diploma.

[Catwoman]

If anything, a program like this would probably have the opposite effect of what they're hoping to achieve. I can imagine kids dropping out of high school because they don't want to continue their education after they graduate, so they would wonder why they should stay in high school at all, if they're not going to get their diploma anyway.

[Jkacz]

I think it's silly but the few articles I've read all state it's just a way to make them aware and think about continuing after high school. It says all CPS students are automatically accepted into certain colleges (the CCs I guess?). No article says they have to go, just do enough of the paperwork to get an acceptance letter.

I agree with you that this is silly. I guess my concern revolves around unintended consequences. If this passes and suddenly there are a lot more applications, would all the students still be accepted into those colleges? I would think that even the CC would have a maximum capacity that they couldn't accept over because they wouldn't physically have room for all those students.

[SKL]

They don't have to do it for an additional two years. They have to apply, they don't have to attend.

 

I realize that, but isn't that kind of stupid in terms of administrative costs etc?  What does it prove?

 

[Joker]

Sigh. I still object just based on the whole philosophy/mindset. This means it's just a rubber stamp program. And it does make me curious about the money. Like, being eligible for automatic acceptance isn't the same as acceptance. If kids are forced to fill out a $50 application fee just to get their high school diplomas, I think that's pretty cruddy. Of course, the whole public schools are free thing seems to be a ship that sailed some time in the last few decades anyway.

 

 

Yes. I still pay yearly to the ps in textbook rental fees what I paid to homeschool both dc. Then, there are all the other fees...

[Joker]

If anything, a program like this would probably have the opposite effect of what they're hoping to achieve. I can imagine kids dropping out of high school because they don't want to continue their education after they graduate, so they would wonder why they should stay in high school at all, if they're not going to get their diploma anyway.

 

They don't actually have to continue, though. They just have to know how to fill out one application and then show proof of acceptance. For some, it could show them that college is actually possible when they've thought it wasn't. 

[SKL]

Hmm, now I am wondering if there is some state or federal funding to be had based on # of applications to / acceptance letters at the city colleges.  :/

[Catwoman]

If learning to fill out college application forms is one of the requirements for a high school diploma then they haven't already earned the diploma until they complete that step.

 

Why would that possibly be a requirement for a high school diploma? That would be absolutely ridiculous.

[Guest]

The data mining aspect is interesting too.......just think of how much data they will get from those forms that the PS doesn't yet have.

[SKL]

They don't actually have to continue, though. They just have to know how to fill out one application and then show proof of acceptance. For some, it could show them that college is actually possible when they've thought it wasn't. 

 

So are they going to explain this to the students coming up on their 16th birthday - "I know it says you have to apply to college, wink wink, but nobody says you have to mean it!"

[Catwoman]

They don't actually have to continue, though. They just have to know how to fill out one application and then show proof of acceptance. For some, it could show them that college is actually possible when they've thought it wasn't. 

 

If that's the goal, why not simply have a requirement that high schools need to inform all students that they are eligible to attend college?

[Guest]

Yes, but why should they have to do any of that?

 

If they pass their high school classes, they should get their diploma. No one has the right to tell them they have to do more than that. The school doesn't have the right to control their lives after they finish high school.

Don't get me wrong. I think the whole idea is stupid. But the details of the program aren't quite the same as you presented it in the original post. But I'm with you on the absurdity of this idea. But then, I have very, very little respect for the current mayor of Chicago, so anything he would propose I'd probably be against. Lol

[DawnM]

The graduation rate for Chicago Public Schools is already around 70%.  This would just lower it.  Why in the world would he want to do that?

[Bootsie]

If he really thinks that 14 grades is necessary, I would prefer to see a proposal to extend high school for 2 more grades.  I am not an advocate of 14 years of schooling, but I don't want college work to be watered down--the purpose of college is much different than that of high school

[SKL]

I could see having each student write a paragraph about their future plans, and if they have an acceptance letter that could satisfy the requirement, since presumably you had to write something to get the acceptance letter.

 

But saying they don't get a proof of high school completion until they prove they have signed up for additional education?  No.

[SKL]

If he really thinks that 14 grades is necessary, I would prefer to see a proposal to extend high school for 2 more grades.  I am not an advocate of 14 years of schooling, but I don't want college work to be watered down--the purpose of college is much different than that of high school

 

That's a good point - the meaning of an education in those "institutes of higher learning" which require no credentials to attend?  How will transfer schools view those credits?  Will they be worth anything at all?  What will that do to the attendees who actually intend to use that education as a stepping stone to a regular university?

Edited April 5, 2017 by SKL

[shawthorne44]

You know what this is?   An open admission that a high school diploma is worthless.  Otherwise, they wouldn't need to prove the next step.  

[JFSinIL]

Well, then, CPS would have to actually teach students and make sure they are college-ready by graduation, or no college is going to take them.

[Liz CA]

Sounds illegal not to mention intrusive.

 

 

[Guest]

Hey! Maybe these kids can get to the bottom of who's really behind this. :) 

 

Kansas School Head Quits Over Student Newspaper Probe

[Pam in CT]

Shrug.  

 

If the idea of a high school diploma is "this person is ready to launch into adulthood," then a requirement of demonstrated ability to fill out some forms and jump through some hoops sounds pretty reasonable to me.  Speaking as an adult, there's a fair amount of forms to fill and hoops to jump on the other side.

 

If there are CC to which the application process is free and acceptance is assured, it does not sound to me like a particularly onerous hoop, even if youngsters have no plans actually to attend college.  And as several pp pointed out, the process might in fact encourage some to consider college who might not otherwise know it was a feasible option.

 

My daughter did a gap year; she applied to college her senior year and deferred the acceptance.  Americorps is a program to which young people apply; I'd expect an acceptance to it would "count" just like an acceptance into a trade or apprenticeship program.  

 

Many public high schools in my area require a certain number of community service hours as a condition of graduation.  Some kids and some parents kvetch that it's a worthless hoop/waste of time.... particularly in the abstract, before the kids actually pick and choose their projects.  Yet they manage to jump the hoops and some of kids even value the experience after the fact.  This strikes me as along those lines.

[Corraleno]

If the only requirement is going through the formality of acceptance to an open-enrollment CC, even if they have no intention of attending, how does simply filling out a form provide the preparation that Emmanuel admits they didn't get from their 12 years in PS???

 

“We live in a period of time where you earn what you learn,†Emanuel said. “The school system of K through 12 is not applicable to the world and the economy and the world that our high school students are graduating to. So we’re moving to a pre-K to college model.â€

 

If the K-12 system isn't preparing kids for the real world, then fix the K-12 system, don't just try to pass the problem along to the CCs, while pretending you've absolved yourself of any responsibility for the many many kids who can't or won't attend.

 

:banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:

 

[SKL]

I don't like the way he is basically saying you are nothing if you don't have post-high school education.

 

I know a lot of people who launched into life straight out of high school - some with, some without diplomas.  Many went to college after having worked in "the real world" for some time, and it made their choice of program and their coursework more meaningful.  Others simply learned their very marketable skills by doing.  Nice to be informed that these people are not valuable.

[Joker]

I don't like the way he is basically saying you are nothing if you don't have post-high school education.

 

I know a lot of people who launched into life straight out of high school - some with, some without diplomas.  Many went to college after having worked in "the real world" for some time, and it made their choice of program and their coursework more meaningful.  Others simply learned their very marketable skills by doing.  Nice to be informed that these people are not valuable.

 

I dropped out of high school and went straight to work and made a career out of it until I had kids. Today, what I started out doing 25 years ago now requires a Bachelor's. It's not impossible to do well today without a college education but it's definitely not as easy as it once was. I don't feel like his proposal is at all saying I'm not valuable. I didn't have anyone in my life talking to me about college, so maybe I would have went if someone did. Who knows?

 

The more I'm reading and thinking on this, I really don't get the big deal.