Parenting a child who thinks rules are optional

[Plateau Mama]

It sounds to me like somewhere (in toddlerhood?) he learned that rules are optional, boundaries can be pushed, and arguing works to help him get his way, because someone gave in to him a few too many times or didn't follow through on logical consequences.

 

For this particular problem: Put Qustodio on all the devices and set the time restrictions.

 

For other problems: Only a few rules (choose your battles), and make sure they are very clearly defined.

 

No arguments when a rule is broken.  Punishment is swift, severe, and dispassionate.

 

  Highly doubt that he learned that in toddlerhood. It wasn't until the last couple of years I've tried loosening up my punishments. Dh has always said I'm too strict. My daughter doesn't break rules. When I ask her why she says "because I know you mean it". This is just how he is wired. He has always pushed the rules and always fought the punishments/outcomes.

+1    Exactly.    Because of his age, I suggest looking into the idea of sending him to a Military School, if they would take someone with his behavioral problems. If he has *any* criminal background (vandalism, theft, assault, robbery, etc.) then I would suggest looking into a "boot camp" for juvenile criminals.  This is potentially a VERY dangerous situation for the OP and her family. Also, he is probably headed for terrible things in the future.  He needs to change and he needs to change now.

He is not a criminal, nor do I believe he is headed that way. He never gets in trouble outside of the home. Never. I've never even had a teacher say he was disrespectful. Scout parents call me all the time to thank me for all the help he's given their child and for being so patient. This problem is just at home. I honestly think If he can manage to make it thru college he will be pretty successful, (after he's fired from 4-5 jobs first.)  

I think he sounds like a normal teenager. He's like a toddler shouting no. He's exploring his autonomy. Some children are more compliant and easy-going but you get the pleasure of one who's not! 

 

I'm not perfect, so my "what to do" list is idealistic and what I'd do in a perfect world if I had perfect patience and self control. Not what I necessarily always do with my own teenager who is very similar to yours.

 

- Don't take it personally. Try to rejoice that he's going to become a strong minded person. 

 

- Set your rules, then enforce the rules with no rancor. You say no phone in bed and he has a phone in bed? Say, sorry, son. The phone is mine for a while. Take it, give it back at the determined time, rinse and repeat. Expect to rinse and repeat. Remember when they kept getting into the dog food when they were little? They were persistent little guys....

 

-Trust in time and the benefit of maturity. He's 14, not a little monster, and no matter what you do, he will probably turn out fine. Your goal is to survive with your relationship intact. The parenting research supports that there's little you can do or not do that will drastically ruin him.

 

-Spend special time with him. He's more likely to follow your rules if he is feeling warm fuzzies towards you. 

 

- Listen to him. Maybe he needs less rules. He's 14, not 7. Perhaps some things can be negotiable now. Maybe you know that he will make bad choices if given the freedom, but maybe the natural consequences are something you can live with and you can let him learn the hard way. 

 

It's hard.  :grouphug:

  

I read this and was surprised, happy and puzzled.  Wonderful that he behaves well in School and in Scouts.  That surprised me and that is good and wonderful.

 

However, the other post, where you wrote that your family was terrified of him, when he went to a Psychologist, sometime ago, is extremely dangerous and is terrifying. He is running the show in your family. That needs to stop or he needs to live somewhere else, before tragedy strikes your family.

 

That close friends suggested you have him tested for Oppositional Disorder would indicate to me that they have seen problems, either when they were in your home or elsewhere. Or, that you have told him things that lead them to suggest that to you.

 

I would give him the benefit of the doubt, until you can have him evaluated, thoroughly, by a Board Certified Psychiatrist.  If he has Physical Medical issues (which you wrote that your doctor said is not the case) those should, if possible, be treated.  A Psychiatrist is an M.D. who can evaluate both his Physical Health and his Mental Health.  Also, there might be some Physical issue that is causing his Mental Health problems.

 

 

 

The friend who suggested testing him for OD loves him so much she wants to adopt him. If I sent him to military school (as has been suggested upthread) she would go break him out and hide him at her house.

 

I did take the phone. He tried to argue and I clatified the rule, said it wasn't open for discussion and left the room (with the phone). He lost all electronics at the end of the year for over 2 months. Didn't change his behavior, we just spent 2 months listening to why we were being unfair.

 

I know this is how he's wired. He's not inherently a horrible child who's going to end up in prison. I have no worry there. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with him so that there isn't always tension in the house. If I have no rules my entire house is trashed and in chaos and I get frustrated. If I have rules he fights every single one of them, even the "rules" that are there to help him. Today his sister is upset with him. I won't go into details but he was late (as usual) and I told her to leave. I told him to take his time because he had to wait for me to get his brother up and get dressed and we'd get there when I was ready. When he realized she was leaving he ran out the door without most of his things and got in the car. But then he dilly dallied getting out of the car and still made her later than she wanted to be. There's more to it but that's the gist.

 

If he would:

 

1. Be on time without help

2. Cleanup after himself in public areas

3. Stay on top of his schoolwork

 

Then I wouldn't need all the other little rules. He asks for the rules and then fights them. Other than no computers in you room my other children don't really have rules. Well, they have the same rules, they just use common sense so I don't have to continually fight them about things like being on time. Doing homework. They aren't good about picking up after themselves but when I say hey can you clean your mess in the kitchen they do it. They don't try to spend an hour arguing about it first and they don't name me ask 4-5 times. He just makes everything so much haedrr than it needs to be. We tell him daily, just do what you are supposed to do and then we won't be telling you what to do all the time.

[maize]

I was a non compliant child with executive function difficulties.

 

I wasn't a "bad" or rebellious kid (don't really believe in "bad" kids...) but a lot in life was sort of fuzzy too me--time, and expectations, and boundaries... My brain is not lacking in creativity and compassion, it is just not very orderly.

 

Your son sounds like a great kid overall. Hopefully the evaluations will provide both insight and helpful paths to pursue to shore up his weaknesses.

Edited January 24, 2017 by maize

[Seasider]

Highly doubt that he learned that in toddlerhood. It wasn't until the last couple of years I've tried loosening up my punishments. Dh has always said I'm too strict. My daughter doesn't break rules. When I ask her why she says "because I know you mean it". This is just how he is wired. He has always pushed the rules and always fought the punishments/outcomes. He is not a criminal, nor do I believe he is headed that way. He never gets in trouble outside of the home. Never. I've never even had a teacher say he was disrespectful. Scout parents call me all the time to thank me for all the help he's given their child and for being so patient. This problem is just at home. I honestly think If he can manage to make it thru college he will be pretty successful, (after he's fired from 4-5 jobs first.) The friend who suggested testing him for OD loves him so much she wants to adopt him. If I sent him to military school (as has been suggested upthread) she would go break him out and hide him at her house.

 

I did take the phone. He tried to argue and I clatified the rule, said it wasn't open for discussion and left the room (with the phone). He lost all electronics at the end of the year for over 2 months. Didn't change his behavior, we just spent 2 months listening to why we were being unfair.

 

I know this is how he's wired. He's not inherently a horrible child who's going to end up in prison. I have no worry there. I'm just trying to figure out how to deal with him so that there isn't always tension in the house. If I have no rules my entire house is trashed and in chaos and I get frustrated. If I have rules he fights every single one of them, even the "rules" that are there to help him. Today his sister is upset with him. I won't go into details but he was late (as usual) and I told her to leave. I told him to take his time because he had to wait for me to get his brother up and get dressed and we'd get there when I was ready. When he realized she was leaving he ran out the door without most of his things and got in the car. But then he dilly dallied getting out of the car and still made her later than she wanted to be. There's more to it but that's the gist.

 

If he would:

 

1. Be on time without help

2. Cleanup after himself in public areas

3. Stay on top of his schoolwork

 

Then I wouldn't need all the other little rules. He asks for the rules and then fights them. Other than no computers in you room my other children don't really have rules. Well, they have the same rules, they just use common sense so I don't have to continually fight them about things like being on time. Doing homework. They aren't good about picking up after themselves but when I say hey can you clean your mess in the kitchen they do it. They don't try to spend an hour arguing about it first and they don't name me ask 4-5 times. He just makes everything so much haedrr than it needs to be. We tell him daily, just do what you are supposed to do and then we won't be telling you what to do all the time.

Hey, there you've listed three great basic rules! Rules that can be applied to every situation! And every one can be objectively measured.

 

Awake with electronics at 2am? He is violating his ability to adhere to rule #1. Did you make it to school on time this morning without assistance and without delaying anyone else? No? No midnight electronics tonight. See what I mean?

 

Perhaps there's a lot of tension because you have TOO MANY rules to preside over. Give him these three and let him know he will lose every privilege that interferes with his ability to comply with one of the Big Three.

 

Yes, he will argue. Arguing takes two. Memorize your sound bite responses and practice them over and over.

 

You are going to kill yourself in the micromanagement process. You're going to get flack no matter what system you set up. Might as well pick a simple (not to be confused with easy) one and ride that train until you get further professional help.

[Seasider]

Adding to the above, these three rules are also great in another way: they all have to do with how he relates to other people. So it's not just "you can't have your phone at night because you won't go to sleep." It's, "your lack of sleep is not just an issue for you, but for the others in the family who are affected by your inability to get yourself dressed and prepared to leave the house on time."

One more thing, something I ask every parent of boys and sometimes girls - how much strenuous physical exercise is this young man getting on a regular basis? That can be a HUGE help. A team sport would require discipline in practice and make good sleep a real necessity.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Seasider

[Paige]

See, I would switch it to he can have his phone/stay up as long as he's on time and able to function without a bad attitude. It's not necessarily true that staying up until 2=not being on time. If he can manage it and he's not bothering anyone, and he's fulfilling his obligations during the day, then I wouldn't sweat it. Chances are, that wouldn't be sustainable, but he will be able to figure that out.

 

OP, I am really in the same place with DS (15), but things are getting better. He's showing signs of maturity slowly but surely. He also sees a therapist (OCD) and she has counseled us to reduce our expectations and give him more help. More help=/ more rules, though. Instead of telling him to clean his room, for example, I help him. I used to think he should be able to do it himself, and he should, but he can't. So, I'm helping him and doing it with him. In the process, I'm training him and building relationship, and trying to keep it light so it's a positive experience for both of us. 

[BooksandBoys]

I found for my oldest that with her EF issues the immediate power trip of making me upset at being late was a HUGE payoff she couldn't turn down. She loved to control of the whole family waiting for her. The exception was church, which she loved so much she would always be the first person ready to go. As far as I know she has never been late for church ONCE in her life. I would consider putting his phone in the car and telling him that he gets it when he is buckled up ready to go on time. He doesn't need his phone in the morning anyway. I'd lock it in the car overnight. At night you could put the phone in the car and he can use it on the way to school IF HE IS ON TIME. Also, could you lock the electronics in the garage? 

 

Anne's figured it out!

This solves the random alarms going off in the night issue and the getting ready to go issue. I suppose it doesn't quite solve the charging issue, but he can learn to plug it in when he gets home from school/sit with it plugged in when he's lounging in the evenings (and, YES, your son WILL learn to plug it in after a few days of going to school with an uncharged phone because he CARES about having his phone).

 

Also, you say good grades are important to him and that missing a day of school will set him back by multiple days. You've answered your own question there...let him miss school. You do not have to drive a child to school just because he missed his ride. Obviously, if there is a history of missing lots of days and you have truancy concerns, you couldn't use this idea, and you couldn't use it with a kid who doesn't care about missing school, but for a kid who cares about school and grades, you can just stop. He's running you and you are letting him because you don't want him to struggle with his schoolwork because you know he wants to do well (and you want him to do well). But he can learn to get to school on time...if he has the appropriate motivation. Right now, he doesn't. You will bail him out. (And if he's anything like one of mine, he actually enjoys you freaking out at him/being inconvenienced by him.)

 

I have this child. Yes, my kids are young, but I'm already exhausted by these behaviors...I'm terrified of the teen years. :-) My hat is off to all of you who have been parenting tricky kids longer than I have.  

[Lanny]

Adding to the above, these three rules are also great in another way: they all have to do with how he relates to other people. So it's not just "you can't have your phone at night because you won't go to sleep." It's "your lack of sleep is not just an issue for you, but for the others in the family who are affected by your inability to get yourself dressed and prepared to leave the house on time."

 

One more thing, something I ask every parent if boys and sometimes girls - how much strenuous physical exercise is this young man getting on a regular basis? That can be a HUGE help. A team sport would require discipline in practice and make good sleep a real necessity.

 

+1 for Physical Exercise.   Every day. When I was a boy, in Middle School and in High School, we had Physical Education classes, 5 days a week. Looking back, I believe those were the most important classes I had. Being active physically is not only important for Physical Health, but, also, for Mental Health. 

[BooksandBoys]

It sounds to me like somewhere (in toddlerhood?) he learned that rules are optional, boundaries can be pushed, and arguing works to help him get his way, because someone gave in to him a few too many times or didn't follow through on logical consequences.

 

For this particular problem: Put Qustodio on all the devices and set the time restrictions.

 

For other problems: Only a few rules (choose your battles), and make sure they are very clearly defined.

 

No arguments when a rule is broken.  Punishment is swift, severe, and dispassionate.  

 

 

Re: Toddlerhood:

Not necessarily. Some kids are just wired to push and push and push no matter how many consequences you give them and how consistent you are. I have one. He's been that way since birth. My other two do not do this. 

 

(Also, Anne in CA, I wish you could be my next-door neighbor. It's clear that you could teach me a lot!)  

[MysteryJen]

The three rules are a great idea. I would add one guideline. Be respectful. Clearly he does this at school and scouts, so he can do it in your house. Making people late, causing inconvenience, constant arguing is disrespectful. If he values being thought of as a respectful young man in his activities (which it sounds like he does), then you can use that to help at home. Why was he late to school? A note to the teacher that he was not respectful of his sister's time. Late to scouts? A note to the scoutmaster that he was not respectful of your time.

 

Also, I have a house full of possible lawyers and an actual lawyer dh. They do not argue all the time. It is rude to keep going and nitpick. Frankly, it is bad habit that can be stopped.

 

After evaluations, you will have some better ideas. But don't allow rudeness to fester in your home. It will wreck sibling relationships.

[NorthwestMom]

 ...... He never gets in trouble outside of the home. Never. I've never even had a teacher say he was disrespectful. Scout parents call me all the time to thank me for all the help he's given their child and for being so patient. This problem is just at home......

.......

 

......I know this is how he's wired.......

Snipping just these two comments from you, OP.

 

He only does this at home. That implies to me that it is NOT how he's wired, it is how he's learned to behave in your home ONLY. If it was how he is wired, he would behave this way in many environments. He does it in your home because it works for him in some way.  I'm glad you are getting him evaluated, hopefully you can get some good advice.

 

Remember, you can't change someone's behavior without changing your own in some way - either how you approach the situation, or how you respond to it. If you want him to change, you need to plan to change as well. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Lanny]

It is normal for teenagers to get tired later at night than adults do. So, when they need to get up, early in the mornings, to go to school, they are dragging. Totally normal.  I would try  to prevent him from taking a nap after he gets home from school, if he does that. I would try to get him to go to bed earlier than he probably does now, but a normal response to that would be, "but I'm not tired mom".  If he has Sleep issues, those are common and can be diagnosed rather easily. 

 

If he is up at 2 A.M. with frequency, especially during the school week, that is something that needs to end. A lack of sleep could be contributing to some of the issues the OP has described in this thread.

 

He sounds like a good kid, other than the fact that the OP wrote that they were terrified of him, when he went to a Psychologist.  That must not happen.

 

[Anne in CA]

Snipping just these two comments from you, OP.

 

He only does this at home. That implies to me that it is NOT how he's wired, it is how he's learned to behave in your home ONLY. If it was how he is wired, he would behave this way in many environments. He does it in your home because it works for him in some way.  I'm glad you are getting him evaluated, hopefully you can get some good advice.

 

Remember, you can't change someone's behavior without changing your own in some way - either how you approach the situation, or how you respond to it. If you want him to change, you need to plan to change as well. 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

My child who was similar to OP's child was considered very good outside the home, but I don't think her constant pushing limits, making our family late, arguing were to do with parenting. She was always looking for any angle to see what she could get away with at home, but she kept that behavior under wraps at church and school. Like others have said, she was wired this way and to a point so is dh, so it wasn't a big deal to him. Also, kids like this are having a hard time holding it together outside the house. I think the OP's troubles are likely amplified because he is holding it together being compliant in school. Also, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the young man in question was not eating food he shouldn't be at school and that is contributing to much of his issues and sleep interruption.  

 

My child who was like this had real issues with empathy even though, like the OP's child, many people observed he to be sweet, patient, generous, ect. She simply didn't see why the family should be happy if she wasn't. When I figured out how to be happy, or at least pretend when she was arguing and pouting, it was a huge game changer. I don't think that will fix the OP's issue though. The melt downs she is describing are unusual for a nuerotypical teenager.  The fact that he didn't learn from losing his electronics makes him different from mine. We cancelled cable when she was sneaking watching it at night and didn't have cable for a year and she was super zealous about never abusing cable again, lol.

[Plateau Mama]

Snipping just these two comments from you, OP.

 

He only does this at home. That implies to me that it is NOT how he's wired, it is how he's learned to behave in your home ONLY. If it was how he is wired, he would behave this way in many environments. He does it in your home because it works for him in some way. I'm glad you are getting him evaluated, hopefully you can get some good advice.

 

Remember, you can't change someone's behavior without changing your own in some way - either how you approach the situation, or how you respond to it. If you want him to change, you need to plan to change as well.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

I get what you are saying but I don't necessarily agree that it's totally a learned behavior. According to his dr he is expending all his energy when he is out following rules and trying to fit into societies expectations that by the time he gets home he's mentally exhausted. So, because home is "safe", and he's mentally exhausted, he is more his natural self at home. So, I do believe it's how he's wired. Are there things we can do to help, I'm sure there are. Problem is it's a moving target. What works one day, sets him off the next. Nothing we have tried improves things for more than a couple days.

[Plateau Mama]

. Also, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if the young man in question was not eating food he shouldn't be at school and that is contributing to much of his issues and sleep interruption.

 

 

I am 100% certain he is not eating the food outside of home. He is terrified of accidentally eating it (corn). It makes him very emotional and mentally unstable and he knows it. He tells people he feels different, unstable when he eats it. He won't even test it to see if it still affects him.

[Anne in CA]

Corn is in a lot of things people don't realize... I wonder if it is some form of ingredient in something he does consume he is not aware of. I know of someone allergic to corn who couldn't even have marshmallows because the corn syrup in them made her sick. 

[MomatHWTK]

IMO what may help is medication, cognitive behavioral therapy, and parental training or therapy.

Schoolwork accommodations may be needed. at the very least he probably needs a high level of support and scaffolding to meet deadlines. And yes, he will be oppositional. The child is basically in fight or flight mode most of the time. Nights, when others are sleeping are the best times because he's alone and the sensory input is less. Computers allow him to focus on something mundane while his brain redirects itself.

 

A child who is overwhelmed by his brain wiring and needs to reset each day is very fragile. In my experience, you cannot fix everything at once. The child just doesn't have the emotional reserve for it. This is especially true if he's already used his reserve avoiding problems during the day. With my kid, we choose one issue. I approach it cautiously. I explain why the situation is a problem- in detail. I discuss the steps we'll take to correct the problem and then we s-l-o-w-l-y begin implementing the change. Once that issue is resolved, we move to the next. Moving from one issue to the next or expecting the child to correct the situation by just obeying does not work. It is a step by step progression until we achieve our joint goal. I have to be his teammate and coach. It takes encouragement, communication, and patience. The minute the child in this situation feels like he can't succeed or that you are angry or impatient, he will shut down. All the punishments I read about on this forum would destroy my kids. It just doesn't work with a child who is wired different and trying to get it to work is cruel. 

 

Yes, my house is chaotic. Yes, we are frequently late. Yes, there are places we don't go and things we don't do. But hoping my child will fit into the box that everyone expects children to doesn't work. It just destroys his self-esteem. I conform my lifestyle to the real needs of my child, I don't expect them to be miraculously changed to conform to my preferences. (And I definitely don't send them to boot camp!)

 

[Ravin]

I can't actually understand how this goes down. I personally would not go sit in the car because I would be sitting there with my ears steaming while he was inside doing God-knows-what. I would stand there being The Voice of God until he moved his butt out the door. It's like - when they kids were little and Joanne (of these boards) had the "Get Off Your Butt" rule - when you tell the kid to do something, if they don't start moving, get off your own butt and make the action happen. Really, that alone was probably the best bit of advice on parenting I ever got, because my kids experienced that my words meant something. It wasn't my opinion that they should put their shoes on and clean up the Legos, KWIM, ot was happening come hell or high water; happy about it or not.

 

I follow the same policy, I guess, even with my 17yo, even though it has been a long time since I physically marched him to the door for anything. (I couldn't anyway, since he outweighs me by far and is four inches taller than me. :)) But I would still be standing there burning a hole in the side of his head with my eyeballs and generally making his life very annoying until he hauls his butt out the door.

 

But I don't know...maybe your situation calls for something far different than mine did. My son has weak EF, too, but you may have more going on than poor time management skills and distractability.

 

Both my kids get ready more slowly if you try and stand over them and verbally push them to get moving. As slow going as it is otherwise, the tantrums, etc. that ensue if they are pushed is even worse and wastes even more time.

 

Both my kids have checklists of things to do to get ready. If they can't get through it all on time with a few predictable reminders, they get woken up earlier. DS gets woken at 6 AM to be out the door by 7:15 because he takes 30-45 minutes just to wake up and dress himself. 

[Paige]

I also think that it's a good sign how well he does outside of the house and does not necessarily mean he acts up at home because he respects you less. It could be because he feels safe- and you want him to keep feeling safe. For some kids, especially those who aren't neurotypical, keeping it together all day is exhausting. He's so good all day long and then when he's home he loses it. I'd rather my kid do that then the reverse. He needs to learn better coping skills to extend his ability to tolerate things, but punishment won't help.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited February 4, 2017 by .qp_

[Plateau Mama]

The three rules are a great idea. I would add one guideline. Be respectful. Clearly he does this at school and scouts, so he can do it in your house. Making people late, causing inconvenience, constant arguing is disrespectful. If he values being thought of as a respectful young man in his activities (which it sounds like he does), then you can use that to help at home. Why was he late to school? A note to the teacher that he was not respectful of his sister's time. Late to scouts? A note to the scoutmaster that he was not respectful of your time.

 

Also, I have a house full of possible lawyers and an actual lawyer dh. They do not argue all the time. It is rude to keep going and nitpick. Frankly, it is bad habit that can be stopped.

 

After evaluations, you will have some better ideas. But don't allow rudeness to fester in your home. It will wreck sibling relationships.

 but how do you make "be respectful" a measurable, rule with boundaries and no loopholes. This is how we and up with a long list of rules. We tell him to be on time and then each time he is late he has a reason, or says he didn't understand. We try to clarify and he calls it a new rule and then he tries to manipulate that and so on.  

Corn is in a lot of things people don't realize... I wonder if it is some form of ingredient in something he does consume he is not aware of. I know of someone allergic to corn who couldn't even have marshmallows because the corn syrup in them made her sick.

 

. He is not consuming corn, I'm almost positive. In the beginning we had issues with hidden corn but not anymore. On the rare occasion we buy something pre add it's from a very short list of things and we always recheck the label. Most of what he eats is made from scratch, at home.

 

When he has corn, in any amount, the changes are very noticeable. There are certain behaviors that are very noticeable. He can even tell when he's eaten something because he will say he feels unstable.

[Plateau Mama]

IMO what may help is medication, cognitive behavioral therapy, and parental training or therapy.

Schoolwork accommodations may be needed. at the very least he probably needs a high level of support and scaffolding to meet deadlines. And yes, he will be oppositional. The child is basically in fight or flight mode most of the time. Nights, when others are sleeping are the best times because he's alone and the sensory input is less. Computers allow him to focus on something mundane while his brain redirects itself.

 

A child who is overwhelmed by his brain wiring and needs to reset each day is very fragile. In my experience, you cannot fix everything at once. The child just doesn't have the emotional reserve for it. This is especially true if he's already used his reserve avoiding problems during the day. With my kid, we choose one issue. I approach it cautiously. I explain why the situation is a problem- in detail. I discuss the steps we'll take to correct the problem and then we s-l-o-w-l-y begin implementing the change. Once that issue is resolved, we move to the next. Moving from one issue to the next or expecting the child to correct the situation by just obeying does not work. It is a step by step progression until we achieve our joint goal. I have to be his teammate and coach. It takes encouragement, communication, and patience. The minute the child in this situation feels like he can't succeed or that you are angry or impatient, he will shut down. All the punishments I read about on this forum would destroy my kids. It just doesn't work with a child who is wired different and trying to get it to work is cruel.

 

Yes, my house is chaotic. Yes, we are frequently late. Yes, there are places we don't go and things we don't do. But hoping my child will fit into the box that everyone expects children to doesn't work. It just destroys his self-esteem. I conform my lifestyle to the real needs of my child, I don't expect them to be miraculously changed to conform to my preferences. (And I definitely don't send them to boot camp!)

you have explained this perfectly. This is my kid. I've always felt he was emotionally fragile. I don't make him do extra curricular so, unless he wants to. I don't make him go socialize, unless he wants to. He really needs a lot of down time. I guess where we struggle is figuring out what to fix first. I have only been able to fix two behaviors that I can think of. One took 3 years. The other took 2. There are a few things he needs to do that would help him immensely but he refuses any sort of help. Even if I help guide him to make the list or plan himself he never follows through and gets upset when you remind him or try to redirect him to the plan. And he doesn't take responsibility for the results. Although he is slowly starting to take responsibility. Very slowly.

 

For example, he was having a hard time remembering what he needed to bring to school and then his sport after school. So we sat down and made a list together. We wrote it on his whiteboard where he could see it. He agreed that he needed to get everything on the list ready the night before. He never did unless he was reminded and if it wasn't done before then things were forgotten daily. Like his sneakers, or uniform for his game etc.

 

I don't know how to help him when he refuses help.

[MysteryJen]

I don't think you need to have long rules about respect. If he is late for his sister and in turn makes her late. It doesn't matter why or what reasons might exist. If you feel disrespected by constant arguing, it doesn't matter if he has a hundred reasons. His actions are disrespectful, his motivations have nothing to do with it. Have a simple consequence like a simple apology to the affected party. No complicated rules, no complicated consequences. Eliminate the fun of the argument.

 

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

[Plateau Mama]

I don't know. I'm remembering how one of my ds's was. I could tell my other kids to go do X, Y, and Z and they'd go do it (usually). But with this particular son, he would seem to be listening and comprehending that he was supposed to do X, Y, and Z. However, by the time he got partly done with X, he would have totally forgotten what Y and Z involved. So what I eventually figured out was that I had to give this ds a 'shorthand' version of the list. So instead of telling him to take out the trash and lock the shops and sweep the porch, I would say, "trash, locks, porch". And I found he could remember it that way. It was all the excess verbiage that was tripping him up, apparently. And he's still kind of like this even as as an adult now. Only what I think is happening in his brain is that he's constantly thinking/processing/planning/writing ... to the point that there's not much 'room' left for the mundane, daily stuff.

 

So I would give him the shorthand list and make him repeat it back to me while looking me in the eye. Then, I'd give him a few seconds for it to sink in and for him to ask any questions. And then he'd go do it right then. And that seemed to work, most of the time.

 

I discovered this once when he hadn't done some things I'd told him to do. As I questioned him, I realized he'd probably forgotten most of what I'd said before he'd even gotten out the door -- because his brain was far, far away thinking about his many plans.

 

But I can't tell whether that's what's going on with your ds. His brain certainly seems to be working overtime what with all the arguing and everything he's doing.

He has auditory processing issues (diagnosed). If I really need things done I try to give him one task at a time two, only if they are related and then check back in with me for the next task. He usually hates this but it's the only way things get done in a timely manner. If it's just things I need done within a few days I write him a list and hope he doesn't lose the list. But there are certain thinks he'd rather fight you on all day than just do (like cleaning up after himself in the kitchen).

[Desert Strawberry]

I don't think you need to have long rules about respect. If he is late for his sister and in turn makes her late. It doesn't matter why or what reasons might exist. If you feel disrespected by constant arguing, it doesn't matter if he has a hundred reasons. His actions are disrespectful, his motivations have nothing to do with it. Have a simple consequence like a simple apology to the affected party. No complicated rules, no complicated consequences. Eliminate the fun of the argument.

 

Sent from my LG-H345 using Tapatalk

I agree with this. 

 

We too have three sweeping rules. 

 

#1 Always be kind. 

 

#2 No hurting. 

 

#3 No destroying. 

 

Every possible infraction falls under one or more of these. 

 

If needed, I will break it down for the kid. But there is no arguing. You don't get to decide that you were not disrespectful. You don't get to decide that you didn't hurt someone's feelings. You don't get to decide that you are not harming someone or disrespecting their possessions. It's my job to explain to the children when they violate the rules. It's thier job to listen, to care, and to take it to heart. 

[heartlikealion]

In some ways your ds sounds like an older version of my son. I will tell him to go brush his teeth or turn off the tv. When it doesn't happen, I will remind him or scold him (maybe not the best approach!) and he'll act like I didn't give him enough time or he was just about to do it (yeah, right). I have not had a test done specifically for auditory processing (they tried to dismiss it when I brought it up at an eval but I might need to further investigate). I got a book on how to help kids deal with EF issues, but I haven't had time to read it. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1440566852/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 Sounds like I might need the book that was mentioned up thread as well.

 

My child is only 8 yrs old. I've deleted the YouTube channel from our Roku a number of times. In the past when we had satellite I had a DVR that I put a password on when I found him watching an episode of The Walking Dead that I didn't want him to see. Dh hated the password prompts and removed them. Mr. Claus bought him his own tv two years ago against Mrs. Claus' wishes but never mounted it. Now I have this stupid tv that either needs to get mounted or sold because I'm sick the clutter. If he had the tv it would have limited access (firestick which we would remove each night). Perhaps taking the items away to where he can't get to them as mentioned is the way to go... and/or hiding the charging devices :laugh:

 

Every person CAN learn to be on time, especially somewhere they go every day. Some people need more scaffolding to learn it, but every person can learn to be on time to school. You gether the necessary information; i.e., it takes 15 minutes to get to school, minimum, 20 with a cushion; it takes 20 minutes to dress and 10 to pack lunch. (Or whatever). That means the latest time to get out of bed is X, or Y to have a cushion. Then, he has alarm(s) and alert(s) set the remind him to get his butt out the door by the correctly-calculated cushion time. If he "can't" use an alarm or alert to get out the door at the correct time, then that is a WON'T, not a CAN'T.

I say this as the resident Time Savant in a family of Time Idiots. (Props to Faith Manor for that excellent description.) I know that the main thing my DH does that screws up his time constantly, is he underestimates the amount of time it takes to get somewhere, a fault that is more glaring when one is bringing kids long, too. So if the perfect-case scenario is that from driveway to parking lot it takes 15 minutes, he still thinks that's 15 minutes to allot, but it's NOT!

Time cushion. All people can be on time if they use time cushion and accurately figure their true travel time.

Sorry for the bunny trail.

 

I mostly agree (as someone with time management issues) but for me the problem is the passage of time is hard for me to accurately observe? I think that could be the situation with others that struggle as well. Dh exaggerates sometimes. He told me I spent an hour in a store recently. I didn't believe him. Well, today I went to a store and looked at the clock before I went in and when I left. I did spend quite a while there, though it didn't feel like it at all! I didn't even look at that many aisles. So it's possible I did spend close to an hour in the store that day he said I did.

Edited January 25, 2017 by heartlikealion

[Guest]

I mostly agree (as someone with time management issues) but for me the problem is the passage of time is hard for me to accurately observe? I think that could be the situation with others that struggle as well. Dh exaggerates sometimes. He told me I spent an hour in a store recently. I didn't believe him. Well, today I went to a store and looked at the clock before I went in and when I left. I did spend quite a while there, though it didn't feel like it at all! I didn't even look at that many aisles. So it's possible I did spend close to an hour in the store that day he said I did.

I do understand this, because my DH and DS are this way, too. I do think there's a personality factor, like a Type A/Type B thing; the Type A person is aware, maybe acutely, of the passage of time. It's why sometimes I feel like I'm a ball of nerves because I'm hyperalert to how much time before XYZ has to happen. I don't think DH or DS *ever* are in that state of mind, lol.

 

For the situation the OP was speaking of, though, I was not thinking about revamping one's whole personality, KWIM? Just that there are ways to scaffold a person (or for them to scaffold themselves) into being able to be on time. It's not impossible to do for any person who can cooperate with the basic idea that "Yes, it would be better to be on time." (It doesn't sound like the OP has quite this situation, so I do feel that advice is now moot for THIS particular problem.) I was just saying that, for regularly-scheduled events, it's totally possible and not even hard to become a punctual person. Even if you are not very time-aware, for instance, you can ingrain it into your head that, "I must leave at x:00 in order to be on time WITH a cushion," at which point I would have an alert ringing if I wasn't time-aware to begin with.

[SKL]

I can't read all the replies, but I sympathize.

 

Rules were made to be broken - or at least my kids seem to be born to prove the truth of that.

 

What do I do?

I don't have a lot of rules.  I try to put expectations in terms of what we're trying to accomplish, e.g., a good night's sleep, a pleasant home.  I reserve the right to take away the electronics if I think sleep isn't happening.  (My kids are 10, I don't know what ages yours are.)  While I try to be reasonable, I don't need to have a codified rule to allow me to take stuff away or assign extra chores.

 

I focus on substance rather than legality.  I can be convinced that a rule needs to be changed (for better or worse).  In my experience, that seems better for our relationship than forcing myself to stick to edicts that turn out to be hard to enforce.

 

I operate from the perspective that my kids will be free adults in __ years/months, and while I need to teach them how to do things, I also need to accept that they are the ones who will decide what they care about.  I try to guide them into habits that will help them and make their lives easier when that time comes.  I try not to take it personally when they need numerous reminders.  I also try to remember the progress they have made.  There are so many things they *are* responsible about, surely they'll emerge into adulthood capable of keeping themselves alive.  :P

 

But about the late thing - that really drives me nuts.  My kid today was complaining about how lateness brings out my most colorful vocabulary, LOL.  I try giving advance notice and bla bla bla, but as was mentioned above, it seems the earlier they get ready, the later they get out the door.  :P  Of course it's usually them who deal with the real-life consequences, which is fine, but I feel like people judge me as a mother when we show up late.  (Come to think about it, lateness is one of the most public parenting fails, so no wonder it bugs us so much.)  Maybe it bothers me more because I have always been a late person, and probably always will be, so I've probably doomed my kids.  :P

[SKL]

I should add, my biggest "rule breaker" is a sweetie and all that good stuff.  Her basic problems are two-fold:  (a) she can't develop a habit to save her life, and (b) to be worth doing, it has to be her idea first.  An interesting combination of traits for anyone trying to live by rules.  :)

[Zinnia]

 

 

For this particular problem: Put Qustodio on all the devices and set the time restrictions.

 

 

Just FYI.  We used to love Qustodio, but it has proven very simple for my kids to remove/disable.  My oldest is 10, and he taught the others (6 and 8).  

 

Currently, because of their ages and the egregious nature of removing a "fence" in place for their own protection, we haven't tried anything new, just removed the devices.  

 

But grrr...  I was surprised at how easy it was for them to disable.  

[MomatHWTK]

Don't think of it as him refusing help, think of it as him not being able to process the help being offered. These mental conditions cause roadblocks in the mind that it is nearly impossible for the person to get past. A part of them may know that they need to do X, but they just can't. This happens with more than one neuro condition- ADHD, autism, anxiety...

 

Trying to force the issue or assuming that "disrespect" must be punished just tears these kids apart. I don't know what it is like to discipline a NT child, but I feel so much pity for non-NT children who are being punished based on advice received from parents who only have NT or compliant children. It is the 21st century equivalent of "just beat it out of them." It is emotionally abusive. In your case, you know something is wrong and genuinely want to do the right thing. Actively pursue those evaluations and ask the psychologist for reference materials that can help you learn to deal with your child's unique situation. 

 

My kid's doc recommended reading The Explosive Child. True confession- I've ordered it, along with a few books on ADHD and autism, but haven't read them. I tend to do better researching online and hopping from site to site. But, if you are a reader-- get the books. Start seeing what therapist and counselors have written on the topic. Even if not everything in a book applies to your child, you can gain valuable tips on coping and communication strategies. Even understanding the theory of mind of the child can help a great deal. It is very much a "I say" / "he hears" situation. 

[Laura Corin]

For electronics: check if your wifi allows you to switch off access to a particular device at a certain time.  We have wifi access turned off on all devices that children use - they ask for it to be switched on and we then do it for a set period. 

 

I also asked the phone company to switch off the data plan on the phone, so it can only be used for texts or phone calls unless we agree to access.  And he hands it to us at 10pm on school nights so that he gets some sleep.

[Storygirl]

OP, much of what you describe could be attributed to ADHD or another similar condition. My kids are slightly younger, but much of what you write sounds familiar. I have more than one child with ADHD, but the one with the most severe case (plus additional issues) is polite and respectful to his teachers and follows school rules but is extremely hard to deal with at home. It's not uncommon for kids to hold it together while in public but let go or fall apart at home.

 

I hope that your upcoming evaluations will provide some answers for you. I think it might be a good idea for you to start preparing your son for the idea that an outside provider or therapist may end up being involved in helping improve the problems. At his age, it will be important for him to be cooperative with whatever solutions you try. Getting to that point will likely be challenging, so you might use this intervening time to plant the idea and get him used to what might come.

 

For the evaluations, one of your challenges may be that they will want his teachers to fill out checklists and forms to indicate what they see at school. If they are not seeing the behaviors at school, the teachers will not be able to report on them. As hard as it is to think about this, it may be better for the long run for you to stop helping him in some of the ways that you do now. Don't remind him about his homework. Don't help him get out of the house on time. Let the school and teachers see what his non-parent-supported behavior looks like, so that they can fill out those forms to give a true picture of what his independent functioning looks like.

 

If you do this, you may consider having some parent-teacher conferences to explain what is going on. Tell them what support you have been giving, and why things will be looking differently for awhile. You can also ask for a meeting with whoever is in charge of the intervention program at your school, so that they can be aware of the issues you are facing. If he ends up with a diagnosis, you may be able to request for the school to provide more support for getting his assignments done, etc.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:  I know it's hard. My child has also always looked for the loopholes in rules and gets up at night to do things that he shouldn't. I do think the night-time issues are related to his ADHD, but just knowing that doesn't solve the problem. We still have to figure out strategies to deal with the issues, and it's really difficult as a parent.

 

I know that I can do better as a parent, but I also know that it is not my fault that DS has these issues. It is not your fault, either, although some of the posts in this thread have suggested that it may be. That's not to say that we can't learn how to manage things better or differently as the parents. But we didn't create the problem. We are just struggling to find the best ways to deal with it, and it can be heartbreaking and exhausting.

[kbutton]

I get what you are saying but I don't necessarily agree that it's totally a learned behavior. According to his dr he is expending all his energy when he is out following rules and trying to fit into societies expectations that by the time he gets home he's mentally exhausted. So, because home is "safe", and he's mentally exhausted, he is more his natural self at home. So, I do believe it's how he's wired. Are there things we can do to help, I'm sure there are. Problem is it's a moving target. What works one day, sets him off the next. Nothing we have tried improves things for more than a couple days.

 

He has auditory processing issues (diagnosed). If I really need things done I try to give him one task at a time two, only if they are related and then check back in with me for the next task. He usually hates this but it's the only way things get done in a timely manner. If it's just things I need done within a few days I write him a list and hope he doesn't lose the list. But there are certain thinks he'd rather fight you on all day than just do (like cleaning up after himself in the kitchen).

 

I have one with CAPD, and I can say with pretty solid certainty that his entire life experience up to this point (he's still relatively little) has been qualitatively different from not hearing correctly. When he was younger, he missed TONS of stuff, and he just kind of coasted along. Now, he catches more things, but it's exhausting, and he frequently misinterprets things. He also experiences very negative sensations in his own brain when words come at him too fast (that is his key auditory processing deficit). Until you mentioned his CAPD, I had forgotten that CAPD can cause issues with perceiving prosody, and you can even "hear" meanness, snark, impatience, etc. when there is none, not to mention that things are clearly at a frustration point in your home.

 

I would be beating down doors for more CAPD-integrated advice. There is not a lot out there. I know that. If you do not know what kind of CAPD subtype he has, I would try to find out. http://www.apcenters.com/5-subtypes-of-auditory-processing-disorder/  We were not able to find this out with my son, but I think he has the Output-Organization subtype. I am hoping testing down the road will make this more clear for us.

 

The stuff you are talking about really resonates with me as stemming from the CAPD. Kids with CAPD are NOT neurotypical. They just are not.

[zaichiki]

I don't want the electronics in my room. For many reasons but the two biggest are I am a very light sleeper and if I get woken up I have a hard time getting back to sleep. So, if the devices aren't totally powered off for whatever reason I am the one to suffers. Drs. Orders I am to get more sleep at any cost, nonnegotiable. Second is my husband is usually still asleep when they are up in the AM. I don't want him woken up by someone (even me) rummaging around in the dark to get devices. I also don't want the kids coming in and out of my roomEven if there was a spot for them to charge in my room, which there isn't. We could lock them I the office but I don't think my husband will go for that because he'd be the one that has to lock/unlock the office all the time. Even if he agreed I doubt he'd be consistent about it.

 

I won't lock the door. I sleep with the door open because said child will decide to get up at midnight to watch TV or play Xbox or cook and I need to be able to hear him so I can shuffle him back to bed.

 

I agree I need to figure out where to put these devices where he can't get to them but I can't picture the logistics. If they are In a locked room and daughter has to leave at 5 am I don't want to get up at 5 to get her devices. I a trying to make the rules the same for both because if I don't then he claims unfairness blah blah blah.

Several years ago my ds was gifted a tablet device (no cell phone). The rule was that he had to leave it downstairs (it could be plugged in for charging) in the kitchen.  We told him if he snuck it out he would lose it. Period. He did have to test that and went without the tablet for a couple of months (twice). It didn't kill him.

 

Right now he has no tablet (it broke and we won't replace it). If he needs to use a phone, we have an extra old "dumb" phone he can use to call us for rides/text friends in a pinch, etc. Ds has learned to carry it around on days when he thinks he might need it. He is a senior in high schoool now, attending a brick-and-mortar school. He spends three mornings a week on a college campus, often heads to school at 6am for CrossFit and/or stays after school until 7pm during the Robotics season, all *without* a smart phone.

 

We all managed, way back then, without one and I'm convinced it's better for their problem solving skills, self-confidence, and ability to cope with unexpected situations *without* a smart phone. I promise you your ds will be able to function without internet access  (home computer or school computers are available for necessary school work). He might be like my ds and NEED that consequence (a real one, not just a couple of days) to take you seriously and respect your rules. He CAN do it.  He's just choosing not to.

 

(So the end story is that we can trust our ds to leave the internet-capable devices downstairs and not bring them up into his room, but it DID take real consequences to get to this point and we had to be willing to be "harsh." We were not willing to lock things up all the time to keep them from our kids. The most important thing for us was to be able to trust our son to respect our rules.)

[zaichiki]

O

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:  I know it's hard. My child has also always looked for the loopholes in rules and gets up at night to do things that he shouldn't. I do think the night-time issues are related to his ADHD, but just knowing that doesn't solve the problem. We still have to figure out strategies to deal with the issues, and it's really difficult as a parent.

 

I know that I can do better as a parent, but I also know that it is not my fault that DS has these issues. It is not your fault, either, although some of the posts in this thread have suggested that it may be. That's not to say that we can't learn how to manage things better or differently as the parents. But we didn't create the problem. We are just struggling to find the best ways to deal with it, and it can be heartbreaking and exhausting.

I think that if the kids are *looking for the loopholes* and *trying to argue points with you* it seems that they may be in full control and are choosing to disregard the rules. 

[MomatHWTK]

Or, ADHD might actually be a condition that requires understanding:

 

https://www.empoweringparents.com/article/how-to-stop-arguing-and-start-talking-with-your-adhd-child/#

https://psychcentral.com/lib/parenting-kids-with-adhd-16-tips-to-tackle-common-challenges/?all=1

http://www.ptscoaching.com/articles/does-adhd-have-to-lead-to-oppositional-defiant-disorder/

[Storygirl]

I think that if the kids are *looking for the loopholes* and *trying to argue points with you* it seems that they may be in full control and are choosing to disregard the rules. 

 

I'm sorry, but you don't know my family, the help we have received, or the circumstances we face. My children are not in "full control" of our family. If anything, we are more strict than most parents.

 

I'm not sure why you chose to comment on my family. This is not even my thread.

 

Families with non-neurotypical children face unique challenges that most people tend not to understand. OP, if you want advice from people who have BTDT, you might consider posting on the Learning Challenges board instead.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Storygirl

[zaichiki]

I'm sorry, but you don't know my family, the help we have received, or the circumstances we face. My children are not in "full control" of our family. If anything, we are more strict than most parents.

 

I'm not sure why you chose to comment on my family. This is not even my thread.

 

Families with non-neurotypical children face unique challenges that most people tend not to understand. OP, if you want advice from people who have BTDT, you might consider posting on the Learning Challenges board instead.

Sorry for being unclear.  I meant the "you" as a plural, non-defined.  I was intending to respond to the OP, but also to your specific advice to the OP, NOT to your specific family situation.  You are right: I do not know you. BTW I am one of the BTDT parents. (You wouldn't know that, though.)

 

ETA: Constantly breaking internet-capable device (cell phone) rules is a VERY common teenage behavior nowadays. I have had a number of IRL discussions with a number other parents about this very thing.  I have noticed a pattern: those who keep experiencing the issue over and over are the ones who take the phone away for a few days or a week and then give it back. Over and over and over. I am not meaning to say "bad parent!" but "hey, here's a pattern and here's something that worked." 

 

My dd attends a Saturday music school with MANY, MANY teens.  Some of them do not have cell phones.  It is interesting to talk to the parents and share experiences. Some clear patterns emerge. 

 

What has worked for someone might be a thing to try. Anyway, take it or leave it, obviously YMMV.

Edited January 27, 2017 by zaichiki

[zaichiki]

I'm sorry, but you don't know my family, the help we have received, or the circumstances we face. My children are not in "full control" of our family. If anything, we are more strict than most parents.

Oh and my "full control" comment was meant to say "full control of themselves" not "full control of the family."

 

Hmmm... perhaps I really was not clear.

[maize]

ADHD and sleep disorders frequently go hand in hand:

 

https://sleepfoundation.org/sleep-disorders-problems/adhd-and-sleep