Discipline for disobedience.

[LauraBeth475]

Help me brainstorm some ideas for my 7 and 8 year old girls? They are going through an uncharacteristic mouthy and non compliant stage, and I'd like to nip this in the bud.

[Guest]

Exercise, more exercise and work outside, if the weather is cooperating,  seem to help a lot around here at any age (even for grumpy grown ups!). It's hard to be mouthy when you're out of breath or worn out tired. If it's ugly outside maybe it's time to clean out some closets or something indoors. 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe a whip or one of those electric dog collars. 

 

 

[zyxwvut]

My kids were driving me crazy, and I was getting pretty frustrated.  And then they all got sick.  And then I remembered that always happens.

 

If this is way out of the norm for your kids, try some vitamin c, probiotics, and gentle, nourishing food.  This is the time of year when we all eat too much sugar, and sleep far too little, and the littlest among us often suffer the most.  

 

Otherwise, a few good heart to heart conversations to figure out what is bugging them deep down might help you solve it.

 

ETA: Sometimes when my kids go through a "spurt of understanding", and their mental world gets a little bigger, they struggle to apply their newfound ideas nicely.  Helping them phrase their concerns has gone a lot farther for us than telling them not to have them.  Maybe try repeating back what their tone and body language implied as they spoke, and then give them some options to "be heard" while being respectful.  

[MFG]

Maybe a whip or one of those electric dog collars.

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SparklyUnicorn]

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

Those are wise words.

[HomeAgain]

Are they at a halfway through the year?  7.5, 8.5?  We tend to have a few bad weeks during the half-year time.  I have absolutely no problem looking at a child and walking away without a word, or sending them from the room if they can't behave.  I make it clear nobody has to put up or deal with their bad behavior and it's not winning them anything except time alone.  Don't comply?  Fine, I don't have to, either.  I start off each day pleasant and with the slate wiped clean, it's up to the child to make sure it stays that way.

[Guest]

My kids sometimes don't realize they're speaking unkindly. I stop them and have them try again until they're using a tone and words that are respectful and kind, or have them role play to figure out how to communicate better with one another and me. That has worked fine. Sometimes just saying 'nope! Try again' halts them and fixes the issue. We haven't had any serious disrespect or issues that couldn't be adjusted that way, yet.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

We done:

 

Walk out and come back in to the room and try again

 

More work piled on for whining, and/or the one NOT whining gets the coveted whatever-it-is.  

 

Writing out 100x, "I will speak respectfully to all members of the family." (or whatever).  

[maize]

Here's my check list:

 

Are they hungry?

Are they tired?

Are they not feeling well?

Are they overwhelmed?

Are they getting enough physical activity?

Are they getting enough vitamin D?

Do they need help learning techniques for dealing with frustration? (walk away from the situation, do something that helps you calm down like reading or coloring or listening to an audio book).

[LauraBeth475]

My kids sometimes don't realize they're speaking unkindly. I stop them and have them try again until they're using a tone and words that are respectful and kind, or have them role play to figure out how to communicate better with one another and me. That has worked fine. Sometimes just saying 'nope! Try again' halts them and fixes the issue. We haven't had any serious disrespect or issues that couldn't be adjusted that way, yet.

This is what I've always sworn by with these two, Arctic Mama! And now suddenly they are sulking or leaving the room instead of agreeing to try again to get it right.

 

Very frustrating.

[justasque]

Here's my check list:

 

Are they hungry?

Are they tired?

Are they not feeling well?

Are they overwhelmed?

Are they getting enough physical activity?

Are they getting enough vitamin D?

Do they need help learning techniques for dealing with frustration? (walk away from the situation, do something that helps you calm down like reading or coloring or listening to an audio book).

 

This.  For me, "discipline" is about teaching kids why they should behave appropriately, including strategies for doing so when it's not coming naturally, and how to stop one's self and look inward to determine what the cause of the grumpiness is (hungry, tired, sick, etc.).  The teaching part means using all of the effective teaching tools I would use to teach an academic subject, as well as my understanding of the child's learning style.

[LauraBeth475]

What do you all do when the bad behavior happens during school time?

[AimeeM]

What do you all do when the bad behavior happens during school time?

If it's uncharacteristic, we shove off school. 

[Rachel]

Are they being unkind to each other or just in general? My daughter is going through a stage right now where she is struggling to be nice to her older brother. After she said something especially mean the other day she got to write 10 reasons she likes him. My initial thought was 100 reasons, but I felt 10 might be pushing it.

 

We have also started sharing nice things about each other during meal time. One day it's something about the person on your right, the next day someone on your left. We just seemed to be needing to emphasize the good things about each other. The first day was a little tough but I assigned the kid who would struggle the most to affirm a parent instead of a sibling.

[zyxwvut]

We'd skip school, too.  If it went on very long, I'd consider a switch of materials.

[LauraBeth475]

We'd skip school, too. If it went on very long, I'd consider a switch of materials.

They seem to like our materials (mostly living books) but the generally bad attitudes are even spilling over into disrupting lessons.

 

Which probably answers my question. If I straighten out the behavior during other times, it will probably stop being a homeschool problem.

[Guest]

Okay, have you identified any triggers? Is it a particular person or action bringing about the sulking? Or a time per day? I'd be stopping everything to troubleshoot - what do they say when asked? Can they pinpoint when they're doing it and why, or does it seem more subconscious/habitual than related to an incident?

[maize]

What do you all do when the bad behavior happens during school time?

First of all, I don't think of it as bad behavior. I might call it dysregulated behavior--the kid is feeling irritable for some reason. Likely they don't know the reason themself. They didn't just wake up, or walk in the room, or sit down at the table and think "I want to behave badly today."

 

Maladaptive behaviors tend to be a response to something. My goals would be to first help the child recognize their own feelings and what it is that is triggering the behavior, and second help them find more appropriate responses to those triggers. That is a long term goal though, and often in the moment the best I can do is provide the means and opportunity to help them calm down.

 

Think about how you feel when you are irritable and out of sorts--surely this happens at times? Would someone coming in and dishing out punishments really be helpful? Wouldn't it mostly make you feel more irritable? I think often we expect better emotional control and regulation from children, immature brains and all, than we do from adults.

 

I am very much a believer in the theory that "children do well if they can"; no child wants to be a bad kid. Our job is to support and help them to do well, not to condemn and punish them when they fail.

Edited December 1, 2016 by maize

[mathnerd]

 

More work piled on for whining, and/or the one NOT whining gets the coveted whatever-it-is.  

 

This works immediately to cut out whining in my child.

[MercyA]

Walk out and come back in to the room and try again

 

More work piled on for whining, and/or the one NOT whining gets the coveted whatever-it-is.  

 

Yep. Taking away privileges also works.

 

ETA: I agree with all the advice to investigate whether or not there might be an underlying cause for the behavior. I do believe in giving our children the help and support they need to be happy and get along with others. That said, I don't think kids always do the best they can, any more than I do. :) Sometimes I am just too lazy or too selfish to do or say the right thing, and sometimes it's the same for my child. That is when loving correction and/or discipline comes in.

Edited December 1, 2016 by MercyA

[Guest]

First of all, I don't think of it as bad behavior. I might call it dysregulated behavior--the kid is feeling irritable for some reason. Likely they don't know the reason themself. They didn't just wake up, or walk in the room, or sit down at the table and think "I want to behave badly today."

 

Maladaptive behaviors tend to be a response to something. My goals would be to first help the child recognize their own feelings and what it is that is triggering the behavior, and second help them find more appropriate responses to those triggers. That is a long term goal though, and often in the moment the best I can do is provide the means and opportunity to help them calm down.

 

Think about how you feel when you are irritable and out of sorts--surely this happens at times? Would someone coming in and dishing out punishments really be helpful? Wouldn't it mostly make you feel more irritable? I think often we expect better emotional control and regulation from children, immature brains and all, than we do from adults.

 

I am very much a believer in the theory that "children do well if they can"; no child wants to be a bad kid. Our job is to support and help them to do well, not to condemn and punish them when they fail.

 

Just have to say I love this. Might have to print and pin up on my mirror. :)

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Here's my check list:

 

Are they hungry?

Are they tired?

Are they not feeling well?

Are they overwhelmed?

Are they getting enough physical activity?

Are they getting enough vitamin D?

Do they need help learning techniques for dealing with frustration? (walk away from the situation, do something that helps you calm down like reading or coloring or listening to an audio book).

 

This.

 

Find the cause, likely the solution is there.

[Anne in CA]

I would make sure there are no triggers you might not be thinking of. Sometimes TV (and public TV can be the worst) causes kids to emulate rude kids they see on TV. My youngest would emulate Muffy from Arthur and Veronica from Rug Rats. She simply couldn't watch shows with mouthy girls, she would see them as powerful and emulate them.

 

Another trigger you might not be thinking of, see what their pleasure reading is. Garfield caused both my younger kids to have bad attitudes. Dumb as it sounds it caused them to strive to make every Monday a nightmare. And Garfield caused them to be selfish. 

 

Also, if they are being rude redirecting my younger two to friendly competition was often helpful. When they start to whine say, "who can get the most problems done in their math set when I set the timer for five minutes?" See if you can get them motivated some other way.

[Guest]

I would make sure there are no triggers you might not be thinking of. Sometimes TV (and public TV can be the worst) causes kids to emulate rude kids they see on TV. My youngest would emulate Muffy from Arthur and Veronica from Rug Rats. She simply couldn't watch shows with mouthy girls, she would see them as powerful and emulate them.

 

Another trigger you might not be thinking of, see what their pleasure reading is. Garfield caused both my younger kids to have bad attitudes. Dumb as it sounds it caused them to strive to make every Monday a nightmare. And Garfield caused them to be selfish. 

 

Also, if they are being rude redirecting my younger two to friendly competition was often helpful. When they start to whine say, "who can get the most problems done in their math set when I set the timer for five minutes?" See if you can get them motivated some other way.

 

We had to cut out YouTube Kids for this reason. I let my guard down because it was "kids" and learned a lesson. My kids are super impressionable to other kids' attitudes and also those videos gave them a bad case of the "I wants". 

[MotherGoose]

Running laps around the house (we have decent weather most of the time, not like it's ice and snow).  I usually reserve this one for whiny "I'm tired" that, or going to bed early.  Scrubbing the baseboards.  I had a cup of popsicle sticks, and whenever the problem behavior occurred, I'd collect a stick.  Each stick was worth 5 mins of scrubbing baseboards.  I really should re implement that plan....baseboards are getting dusty!  Of course I'd try talking about behavior etc. and whatnot, but sometimes kiddos are just not in a mood to be talked to or to correct the behavior, and they need a tangible reminder.  Another thing I've done is if disruptive behavior prevents schoolwork from being done, and we are going somewhere, they have to take the work there to complete it (ie sit at friends table and do work while everyone else plays).  

[MotherGoose]

We had to cut out YouTube Kids for this reason. I let my guard down because it was "kids" and learned a lesson. My kids are super impressionable to other kids' attitudes and also those videos gave them a bad case of the "I wants". 

Over Thanksgiving, DH let them watch TV a lot (they usually get almost none).  Now I've heard over and over again how wonderful this star sparkle thingy is you can shine on your house for Christmas, and even about some electric Q tip thingy.  I can only imagine what it would be like if they watched TV regularly.  

[fairfarmhand]

Attitude and eyerolls at my house are better not addressed "in the moment."

 

Later, perhaps while we're doing something else, like washing dishes, I address stuff like this:

 

Mom: dd, I've noticed you seem a little impatient and argumentative lately. What's up with that?

 

This makes my dd really consider what the trigger has been. Often it's the same thing; sibling doing x; frustration with school; annoyed with having to do chores; My kids don't always think about what the overall problem is, they're just reacting to something. This gets them considering the motivation behind the poor response.

 

So we chat about what's happening and the two of us try to find a workable solution.

 

Sibling never stops humming while school is happening...we find better places for people to work.

 

Chores seem unfair...we talk about what might be more fair in their eyes. Often, I've offered to switch things around, and the child decides they prefer the current arrangement because the alternative chores are grosser or more time consuming.

 

Sibling is pestering when I don't notice...I try to be more conscious.

 

Theres a couple things that really help. First, my kids need to be heard and know that I take their problems seriously. Sometimes just the listening helps. Second, I want my kid to really consider if they are a part of the problem and how they can solve the problem. They're more invested in a solution if they've come to the realization that they can take care of the problem. If I don't care for their solution, unless it's just impossible, I offer to try it for a week or two and see how it works out.  Third, my kid and I need to be able to work on problems without attacking one another and getting defensive. Punishments tend to put kids on the defensive, making them less likely to work through the solutions themselves.

 

It's not that I never punish, but for general mouthiness and attitude, other approaches are more effective.

 

Also, in the moment, I have been known to comment "Whoa, whoa, whoa, there! I'm so happy to help you with this problem because I love you so much. But I'd prefer for you to speak to me kindly and cheerfully. Now, let;s start over and you can explain what's going on and we'll solve this problem!"

[redsquirrel]

When my kids make me want to push them away, I pull them closer.  At that age it might mean more time baking or watching a family movie or doing something fun.  It's nice when everyone remembers why they love each other.  That can go a long way to making life easier.

 

I also take the 'be the change' very seriously...and I find it really works.  If I need the kids to be patient and kind I really challenge myself to be patient and kind.  If they are rude in return I identify it in a kind and patient fashion as best I can.

 

I don't always succeed in making those better choices, but when I do, it usually does the trick.

 

And it's the time of year for grumpy kids. The days are darker, school isn't fun anymore, etc etc.  I see it among adults as well.  So, pull them closer and be the change. They learn best from you and will take their cues from you.

[maize]

I would make sure there are no triggers you might not be thinking of. Sometimes TV (and public TV can be the worst) causes kids to emulate rude kids they see on TV. My youngest would emulate Muffy from Arthur and Veronica from Rug Rats. She simply couldn't watch shows with mouthy girls, she would see them as powerful and emulate them.

 

Another trigger you might not be thinking of, see what their pleasure reading is. Garfield caused both my younger kids to have bad attitudes. Dumb as it sounds it caused them to strive to make every Monday a nightmare. And Garfield caused them to be selfish. 

 

 

I've seen research backing up this observation; it was an unexpected finding of the study I read about: children who watched shows like Arthur displayed more verbal and social aggression. The researchers went back and analyzed the shows and determined that they included extremely frequent social aggression. Kids' brains are very, very good mimics.

Edited December 1, 2016 by maize

[Guest]

I've seen research backing up this observation; it was an unexpected finding of the study I read about: children who watched shows like Arthur displayed more verbal and social aggression. The researchers went back and analyzed the shows and determined that they included extremely frequent social aggression. Kids' brains are very, very good mimics.

We had to stop Kailan because of the whining! It's amazing what kids will replicate.

[Annie G]

Think about how you feel when you are irritable and out of sorts--surely this happens at times? Would someone coming in and dishing out punishments really be helpful? Wouldn't it mostly make you feel more irritable? I think often we expect better emotional control and regulation from children, immature brains and all, than we do from adults.

 

I am very much a believer in the theory that "children do well if they can"; no child wants to be a bad kid. Our job is to support and help them to do well, not to condemn and punish them when they fail.

 

This.  I had a bad day yesterday. I was irritable and short. Dh knew I was just stressed and feeling overwhelmed and he told me to treat myself while running errands, hoping it would make me feel better.  I got a soda and a snack and turned on some music and ran errands. It made me feel better.  And dh didn't expect an apology for my mood, and I wasn't punished or told to change my attitude.   Kids would probably benefit from more time spent figuring out what's causing the moods and what can make them feel better rather than being punished for poor self control. 

 

It's easy for me to say...our kids are all adults now.   I have so much patience for our grandkids...wish I'd had that when our kids were young, too. 

[snickerplum]

I agree about being in the moment. I don't let sass slide, but I'll let them know we'll be talking about it later or make them stop what they're doing to cool down and come back to reality. It really hits home with my kids when I point out what happened (mouthing off, snapping at someone, being mean) and say something like, "that's not you. I know you're a kind/thoughtful/respectful/whatever person and what you said/did earlier does not show that... I want you to think about your actions/words and how they affect others before you act/speak."

If they can't change their 'tude I find something for them to work on that chances are they won't enjoy.

I get having bad days. I have bad days. But I do not tolerate being sassed by my children. I'm the mom. Don't' like something? Tough noogies. I'm not perfect, but I AM the mom and a pretty good one at that, so let's have some respect.

"So, wanna change how you said that?" [emoji4]

 

 

 

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[LucyStoner]

They seem to like our materials (mostly living books) but the generally bad attitudes are even spilling over into disrupting lessons.

 

Which probably answers my question. If I straighten out the behavior during other times, it will probably stop being a homeschool problem.

What does the day look like? My nearly 8 year old needs a fairly predictable routine, with work time broken up with physical activity or other rest time. So instead of 2 hours of school and then play or downtime, we do 15-25 minutes of each alternating. So perhaps:

 

Reading

Yoga

Math

Running

Handwriting

Meditation

History

Trampoline

Eat

Chores

Play

Edited December 2, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Garga]

Sleep.  Lots of sleep.  My kids need 9-10 hours a night.  They're 11 and 14 years old.  If they don't get their 9-10, they have a hard time being civil to each other.  Sleep can go a long way to helping a bad attitude.

 

I give a little speech from time to time to try to reset us.  Gather everyone close together, snuggle a bit, talk about how we are going to say nice things for the rest of the day.  And if we forget, then we'll have do-overs.  "Try that again, but nicer this time."  

 

Sometimes I separate them.  "You in the kitchen.  You in the living room.  Don't talk to each other at all." 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Garga

[Mergath]

I agree with what everyone else has said. Understanding is a lot more effective than punishment. My dd is 8.5 yo, and I've learned over the years that when she gets like that there's always an underlying cause that "discipline" isn't going to help.

 

Also, kids develop the need for independence much faster than they develop empathy, so often they don't even realize they're being hurtful or annoying. You really do have to spend a lot of time telling them that it hurts people when they're rude or whatever.

 

For me, what works irt getting dd to help out more is to remind her that if she does help with the cleaning and whatnot, I'll have a lot more time for us to do fun stuff together. If I have to do all the cooking, cleaning, etc. by myself, I don't have any time to take her to the movies or the playground.

[Guest]

Whoops! Meant to comment to my dh.

I am also having problems with my kids. I am going to try some of these ideas.

 

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Edited December 6, 2016 by Paradox5

[lexi]

Are they at a halfway through the year? 7.5, 8.5? We tend to have a few bad weeks during the half-year time. I have absolutely no problem looking at a child and walking away without a word, or sending them from the room if they can't behave. I make it clear nobody has to put up or deal with their bad behavior and it's not winning them anything except time alone. Don't comply? Fine, I don't have to, either. I start off each day pleasant and with the slate wiped clean, it's up to the child to make sure it stays that way.

I am SO glad to see someone else saying this! My hubby and I have agreed that at the mid-year point each of our kids go temporarily insane. It is the weirdest thing! They will be uncharacteristically awful and then we'll look at each other and realize that it is near their half-birthday. Oh my goodness. It's so strange!