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I must not understand passive voice vs. linking verbs...

lisabees

By lisabees,
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lisabees

lisabees

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DD's writing is outsourced.  The teacher asked her to change the following "passive" sentences...

 

 

Horses are magnificent creatures.

 

Some are fearful.

 

The training process is long, requiring much patience and work.

 

 

I am obviously confused by the passive vs. active voice.  Anyone want to help me?

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ondreeuh

ondreeuh

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I'm no grammar guru, but I thought passive voice meant you were using helping verbs while starting the sentence with the direct object. "The horse was ridden by the boy." vs "The boy rode the horse." Your student's sentences aren't passive. I would ask the teacher to clarify.

 

Perhaps the writing instructor means to ask your student to choose more varied verbs instead of being verbs? The sentences you gave use are & is.

 

"Although magnificent creatures, some horses feel fear at the slightest provocation."

 

"The long training process requires much patience and work."

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Matryoshka

Matryoshka

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You are not confused; the teacher is. Those are all active voice construction using state of being/linking verbs. There is no stated or unstated object who could be flipped become the subject of an active voice sentence.

 

And the icing on the cake is that the passive voice is formed by the verb to be plus the past participle. Sometimes it can be difficult to discern the difference between a linking verb sentence with a predicate adjective that is a past participle and a passive construction, but none of these sentences have a past participle to make it even vaguely confusing.

 

I would think I be wanting my money back from this course...

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lisabees

lisabees

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DD's writing is outsourced.  The teacher asked her to change the following "passive" sentences...

 

 

Horses are magnificent creatures.

 

Some are fearful.

 

The training process is long, requiring much patience and work.

 

 

I am obviously confused by the passive vs. active voice.  Anyone want to help me?

 

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Tanaqui

Tanaqui

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1. There is nothing wrong with the passive voice. There are many situations where the passive voice is preferable. This is one of the more inane bugaboos of the 20th century. (And now the 21st as well!)

 

2. 99% of people railing against the "passive voice" have no idea what they're talking about. This teacher is one of them. Who knows what other nonsense they're passing off as "correct"? Ditch the class, ask for a refund.

Edited by Tanaqui
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Matryoshka

Matryoshka

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It definitely sounds like what she means is for him to use more active, interesting verbs rather than just boring verbs like 'to be', as ondreeuh suggested. However the fact that she's conflating that with passive voice is very troubling.. she's actually teaching wrong information.

 

Have you read her page on the passive voice? Is it accurate or is it also erroneous?

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Tanaqui

Tanaqui

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It definitely sounds like what she means is for him to use more active, interesting verbs rather than just boring verbs like 'to be', as oondreuh suggested.

 

Except one of the suggested changes is from "requiring much patience" to "requires much patience". The verb is not more active and interesting, and the change adds nothing to the sentence.

 

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EKS

EKS

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The teacher doesn't know what passive voice is.  I suspect what he/she wants is an action verb.  Some English teachers call the verb to be a "passive verb."  I know this because a high school English teacher in a class I'm taking just referred to it this way.

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Matryoshka

Matryoshka

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The teacher doesn't know what passive voice is.  I suspect what he/she wants is an action verb.  Some English teachers call the verb to be a "passive verb."  I know this because a high school English teacher in a class I'm taking just referred to them this way.

 

:blink:  I think that the take-away is anyone who hangs out here has a much better grasp of grammar than the average English teacher... Yikes.

 

I'm also becoming more curious what the heck her page on passive voice says (did she get it from somewhere else and it's accurate and she jsut can't understand it herself, or did she write it and it's a bunch of hooey?).  If it's the latter, I'm not sure I could help myself linking to a real definition of the passive voice for her edification...  definitions matter.

 

And I can't imagine continuing to pay someone to teach my kid nonsense...

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Matryoshka

Matryoshka

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I am hesitant to copy and paste, but her blog post had the typical passive voice examples.

 

She even quotes Lively Art of Writing (which uses linking verbs!!!):

 

Active voice is direct, vigorous, strong; passive voice is indirect, limp, weak—and sneaky. 

 

The key is that the passive voice uses a conjugated form of the verb 'to be' + the past participle, and the action in the sentence (the action being whatever the verb in the past participle is) is done by someone or something other than the subject of the sentence.

 

Ask her how any of your kid's sentences apply to that definition...?  None of them have a past participle.  None of them have action done by anything or anyone other than the subject.  They are simple,sentences, but they do not use passive voice!

 

You can rail against the passive voice all day, but you also need to know what the heck it is you're railing against...  (and I'll agree with a pp that there are certainly times the passive voice is the correct choice - there's a reason it exists, after all...)

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Tranquility7

Tranquility7

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I think I understand what she is getting at. However, she should not use the term “passive voice†(or even just “passiveâ€) in this circumstance, since, as a PP mentioned, that is a particular grammar construct in which the receiver of the action is made the subject of the sentence. That is not the case with the sentences you gave; they are all already in active voice.

 

A sentence that is in *active VOICE* already, can have *more* or *less* action occurring, depending on the verb used. That doesn’t affect the *voice* in a grammatical sense – all of the sentences are still active *voice* - but there is more action occurring within the sentence.

 

For example, all of these sentences can convey the same reality, and all are in *active voice*, yet there is more action occurring in #5 than in #1:

  1. There are trees by the house.  (state-of-being verb with a bland pronoun, so the least action occurring)
  2. Trees are by the house. (state-of-being verb, so still not much action, but at least trees are the subject now)
  3. Trees stand by the house. (now the trees are doing something)  (pattern: Subj + AV)
  4. Trees tower over the house. (now the trees are doing more)  (pattern: Subj + AV or maybe Subj + AV + DO if you consider “tower over†to be a single verb)
  5. Trees shelter/enshroud/protect/shield/crowd/etc. the house.  (now the trees are doing something TO something else)  (pattern: Subj + AV + DO)

So, even *within* active voice, there is still a continuum of how much action is actually occurring. In general, a linking or state-of-being verb has the least action occurring, an action verb has more, and an action verb with a direct object has even more.

 

Btw, this is a good and valid correction, just incorrectly explained by the teacher. Your DD’s teacher should never use “passive†or “passive voice†to describe this correction. She should say “less action occurring†and “more action occurringâ€.

 

IEW incorporates this same idea, but they do it by banning “to be†verbs, and by requiring strong verbs. But their goal is the same thing – a sentence where there is *more* action occurring (they just don’t actually explain it that way).

Edited by tranquility7
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Tanaqui

Tanaqui

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Active voice is direct, vigorous, strong; passive voice is indirect, limp, weak—and sneaky.

 

That's not actually true, even a little bit. There are many reasons to use the passive that are not indirect, limp, weak, or sneaky. (And there are many sentences formed with the passive voice that are not direct, vigorous, or strong.)

 

Yes, you can use the passive to get a sneaky effect - as in the famous not-apology sentence "Mistakes were made" (and let's hope nobody tries to pin me down on who made the mistakes!) - but that's not an inherent feature of passives.

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Ellie

Ellie

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Thank you both!  Here are the teacher's comments...

 

I wonder if you have any questions about this assignment. I see passive voice in your work and don't see any revisions.

 

You've used passive voice here. You might say Magnificent creatures, horses fill in the blank.

 

You might say something like, The long training process requires much patience and work.

 

You might say something like:

Horses have different personalities: moody, sweet or fearful.

I encourage you to reread the passive voice post and take another stab at this. 

 

 

Ok, well *I'm* confused, because neither of those is passive voice. Possibly the teacher would like different sentence constructions, instead of all of them being subject-verb. But she muddied the water by describing them as "passive voice." They are not.

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Lori D.

Lori D.

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...Here are the teacher's comments...

 

I wonder if you have any questions about this assignment. I see passive voice in your work and don't see any revisions.

 

You've used passive voice here. You might say Magnificent creatures, horses fill in the blank.

 

You might say something like, The long training process requires much patience and work.

 

You might say something like:

Horses have different personalities: moody, sweet or fearful.

I encourage you to reread the passive voice post and take another stab at this. 

 

 

Previous posters have done a great job of clarifying passive voice and explaining how the teacher has misused that term. And I totally agree how frustrating to have someone instructing in English language usage to misunderstand/misuse passive voice! 

 

That said, from your post I quoted above (even though the teacher mis-explained it as passive voice ;) ) I'm guessing that what the teacher really wants is something along these lines:

 

- more action verbs and fewer verbs of being

("The long training process requires much patience and work" rather than "The training process is long, requiring much patience and work" -- the student's original sentence reduces the action verb "require" to a "weaker' position of modifying rather than directly working as an action verb on the subject, and allows the more general/less specific verb of being "is" to carry the weight)

(NOTE: just me, but I *like* the student's modifying phrase at the end of that sentence as some nice structural variety, and would only worry about changing that sentence if the entire piece of writing was filled with verbs of being rather than specific, vivid action verbs and those other verbs of being could NOT be changed to action verbs somehow...)

 

- more variety in sentence structure

(Rather than: the original writing with several sentences structured similarly with subject-verb of being-predicate nominative ("Horses are magnificent." "Some are fearful.") -- it looks like the teacher wants some sentence structure variety -- like starting a sentence with a modifying phrase, as in the teacher's example: "Magnificent creatures, horses _____.")

 

- and more details to explain/support the statements

(Tell why, or give details to flesh out WHY "Horses are magnificent" or what makes them magnificent -- teacher's rephrasing of "Magnificent creatures, horses _____" looks like teacher is leaving room for supporting details to explain WHY or HOW horses are magnificent. Again, with "Some horses are fearful", it looks like the teacher is looking for fleshing out the original short statement of fact with more details: "Horses have different personalities: moody, sweet, or fearful.")

 

 

Just my guess at what the teacher wants! ;) BEST of luck in getting this ironed out! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited by Lori D.
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Critterfixer

Critterfixer

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Agreeing with the others about passive voice. Those sentences are not in passive voice. They are S-V-PN or PA patterns, which may not be passive, but really are kind of weasel sentences, because the subject is simply renamed or described and never has to do anything.

What the teacher wants is to see the linking verbs gone and the subject of the sentence actually doing something.

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Targhee

Targhee

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Teacher is wrong. It seems that she's mistaken whether a verb is ACTION, linking, or being for whether it is ACTIVE or passive voice. It is a common mistake, one which was taught to me in honors high school English (and which puzzled me until someone kindly explained the aspects of verbs more clearly to me in college).

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fralala

fralala

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Posted

My favorite high school English teacher would have simply said:

 

Show, don't tell.

 

Of course, it is hard for us to judge this piece of writing out of context, but you said this is a longer piece of writing. If these sentences are followed by descriptive examples, I see nothing wrong with them. It really depends. As introductory sentences to descriptive examples, they work well. If her piece is full of paragraphs like this:

 

"Some are fearful. Some are afraid of their shadows. Some are afraid of loud noises. Some are startled by sudden movements. Some are afraid of people."

 

...then sure, it needs fixing, but you can't fix it by simply getting rid of the verb "to be." (Fearful, some balk at their own shadows. Loud noises frighten some horses. Some startle at sudden movements. People terrify some horses.")

 

Superficial changes, action verbs, boring sentences.

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Storygirl

Storygirl

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I agree with Lori D. I think the teacher is asking her to use active verbs, instead of state of being verbs ("is" and "are"). Sometimes "is" is the best verb choice, but often one can replace it with a stronger verb to make the sentence more descriptive and dynamic.

 

To please this teacher, I would advise your daughter to go through her work before handing it in and circle or highlight all of the state of being verbs. Work on revising those sentences before handing it in.

 

Although the teacher is not using "passive voice" correctly, I think that your daughter can choose to overlook that and may find that her writing improves by choosing more dynamic verbs. if she wants to open a discussion with the teacher about the correct meaning of "passive voice," she could do that, to, but I'm not sure it's worth it. I would just take the advice that the teacher means to be giving and run with it.

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Pen

Pen

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We had this come up in an online writing class my son took also. Perhaps it was even the same teacher!  I wished she had not used the term "passive voice" which I also understand the same way you do, and think the teacher misused the term.  However, the places that the teacher used the term "passive voice" were places where a stronger active verb could make the writing better.

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MASHomeschooler

MASHomeschooler

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We had a similar issue when we first tried outsourcing writing (Time4writing). No teaching, and feedback that was more often wrong than right.  The teacher clearly knew less than me (and my daughter!) about grammar, and seemed to be using some list of common mistakes, saying she was doing ones that had some passing resemblance to the actual thing she wrote, even though what she wrote was fine. So frustrating!

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Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell

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I think I understand what she is getting at. However, she should not use the term “passive voice†(or even just “passiveâ€) in this circumstance, since, as a PP mentioned, that is a particular grammar construct in which the receiver of the action is made the subject of the sentence. That is not the case with the sentences you gave; they are all already in active voice.

 

A sentence that is in *active VOICE* already, can have *more* or *less* action occurring, depending on the verb used. That doesn’t affect the *voice* in a grammatical sense – all of the sentences are still active *voice* - but there is more action occurring within the sentence.

 

For example, all of these sentences can convey the same reality, and all are in *active voice*, yet there is more action occurring in #5 than in #1:

 

  • There are trees by the house. (state-of-being verb with a bland pronoun, so the least action occurring)
  • Trees are by the house. (state-of-being verb, so still not much action, but at least trees are the subject now)
  • Trees stand by the house. (now the trees are doing something) (pattern: Subj + AV)
  • Trees tower over the house. (now the trees are doing more) (pattern: Subj + AV or maybe Subj + AV + DO if you consider “tower over†to be a single verb)
  • Trees shelter/enshroud/protect/shield/crowd/etc. the house. (now the trees are doing something TO something else) (pattern: Subj + AV + DO)
So, even *within* active voice, there is still a continuum of how much action is actually occurring. In general, a linking or state-of-being verb has the least action occurring, an action verb has more, and an action verb with a direct object has even more.

 

Btw, this is a good and valid correction, just incorrectly explained by the teacher. Your DD’s teacher should never use “passive†or “passive voice†to describe this correction. She should say “less action occurring†and “more action occurringâ€.

 

IEW incorporates this same idea, but they do it by banning “to be†verbs, and by requiring strong verbs. But their goal is the same thing – a sentence where there is *more* action occurring (they just don’t actually explain it that way).

 

An enrichment class taught using IEW materials actually caused my prolific writer to shut down for almost a year. Too many WHIZ BANG super-verby verbs drove her NUTS. It was painful, she felt like every single assignment needed to be written like a superhero action comic. And this girl actually LIKES superhero action comics!

 

 

I have to go out and run an errand, but if anybody wants more thoughts on the passive, you can find several critiques of this sort of attitude here, here, and here.

 

Sometimes the stylistic choice to use the passive is objectively superior.

And sometimes it is truly the only option. Our meltdown occurred after the banning of the word "did" and there was no way to rewrite an action that is always "done" and not performed, attacked, executed, powerfully demonstrated, or anything else. (it was a ballet term, 'did a few tendus' that wrecked it for her.)

 

 

But after reading here she wasn't even using passive voice. "I instinctively did a few tendus to loosen up." Not "A few tendus were done by me to loosen up." Now I'm even angrier, and this class was over 6 years ago!

Edited by Rebel Yell
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Ellie

Ellie

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My favorite high school English teacher would have simply said:

 

Show, don't tell.

 

Of course, it is hard for us to judge this piece of writing out of context, but you said this is a longer piece of writing. If these sentences are followed by descriptive examples, I see nothing wrong with them. It really depends. As introductory sentences to descriptive examples, they work well. If her piece is full of paragraphs like this:

 

"Some are fearful. Some are afraid of their shadows. Some are afraid of loud noises. Some are startled by sudden movements. Some are afraid of people."

 

...then sure, it needs fixing, but you can't fix it by simply getting rid of the verb "to be." (Fearful, some balk at their own shadows. Loud noises frighten some horses. Some startle at sudden movements. People terrify some horses.")

 

Superficial changes, action verbs, boring sentences.

 

OTOH, using several of those short, choppy sentences can be perfectly fine, depending on the context.

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Lori D.

Lori D.

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Update:  DD ended up in tears as she was changing every sentence that had a "to be" verb.  She just didn't understand why she could never use them.  Sigh.

 

:crying:   :grouphug:

 

SO sad to hear that!  As a co-op class writing teacher, I would NEVER ask (or expect!!) a student to change that much of the student's writing voice!

 

What about just changing about 1 out of every 4 or 5 of the "to be" verbs -- and ONLY in the places where a "stronger" action verb really works better and is warranted? Trying to FORCE a lot of action verbs into the writing just to "get rid of linking verbs" is likely to make the writing weak in a new direction -- sounding unnatural, or having a completely inappropriate tone for the type of writing or intended audience. :(

 

I'm sorry the teacher is fixated on linking verbs and not looking at the overall quality of writing, or respecting the student's writing voice, tone, knowledge, and research. :(

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Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell

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:crying: :grouphug:

 

SO sad to hear that! As a co-op class writing teacher, I would NEVER ask (or expect!!) a student to change that much of the student's writing voice!

 

What about just changing about 1 out of every 4 or 5 of the "to be" verbs -- and ONLY in the places where a "stronger" action verb really works better and is warranted? Trying to FORCE a lot of action verbs into the writing just to "get rid of linking verbs" is likely to make the writing weak in a new direction -- sounding unnatural, or having a completely inappropriate tone for the type of writing or intended audience. :(

 

I'm sorry the teacher is fixated on linking verbs and not looking at the overall quality of writing, or respecting the student's writing voice, tone, knowledge, and research. :(

YES!!! Agree 1million%.

 

And I promise not to hijack this topic to go on a vicious rant against teachers who forbid "said." If you're ever feeling a little too sane, calm, or happy... read student dialogue written entirely without "said."

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lisabees

lisabees

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Last year, dd loved writing.  She did it with me, using Maxwell's Writing in English and a lot of creative writing.  This year, I really felt that she needed to make the jump to more academic writing using an outside source. I am bummed that I picked this class.

 

We will use it as a learning experience, though.  In the end, she may well be quite pleased with the result.  Maybe this is just a sign of growing pains?

 

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Critterfixer

Critterfixer

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We will use it as a learning experience, though.  In the end, she may well be quite pleased with the result.  Maybe this is just a sign of growing pains?

 

Always use editing suggestions as a learning experience. In time she will begin to edit her own work, and she will be able to pick out when a suggestion is helpful, or if it doesn't work with the piece. The only way to learn this is to try the editing suggestions for herself, read them aloud, and work with them. It can be very hard on a young student to have their writing challenged (especially when the challenger confuses the student) because it can feel personal. Tell her not to take it personally. Far better to look at any editing suggestions as suggestions that she should try out for herself, and evaluate. With any luck, she'll take edits as an opportunity to play with in her own writing, and so strengthen her writing over time.

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Rebel Yell

Rebel Yell

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Last year, dd loved writing.  She did it with me, using Maxwell's Writing in English and a lot of creative writing.  This year, I really felt that she needed to make the jump to more academic writing using an outside source. I am bummed that I picked this class.

 

We will use it as a learning experience, though.  In the end, she may well be quite pleased with the result.  Maybe this is just a sign of growing pains?

Possibly. It could also be a sign of a poor fit with the teacher or program.

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