home school to high school issues

[RachelGoorbarry]

 

 

Hi, I read articles on home school kids who want to go to public school and I am wondering if anyone could advise us on a situation we are having to deal with right now.  If this is the wrong place to ask for this advice, please let me know where I can go to ask these questions.

 

My sons wanted to enroll in public school and were accepted into a special music program.  They wanted to enroll in public school so they could ‘grow as people,’ they said, and because they do not want to say they graduated from home school or online school and they think that getting into university would be easier if they graduate from public school.  They are seventeen-year-old identical twins.   

 

First of all, my kids were split up in the public school.  They have never been split up in anything.  They seem okay with that however, we did ask the school to not split them up because we want them to have a consistent educational experience, with both having good teachers.  In our home school, I was the teacher and ensured that both of them learned all material thoroughly.  If I could not teach it (calculus!) we went to fabulous tutors.  In addition, they help each other when they are together.  Right now, one of my kid’s math teachers has given hundreds of review problems during the past week.  My other kid’s teacher has given ten questions a day, and in class they are put in groups to talk about math instead.  So I think one of my kids has a huge head start on math.  They do not want to work together on math or anything now.

 

Secondly, one of my kids did not get the course he wanted and needs to graduate:  English.  He wants to apply to universities this fall and universities would want to see English on the transcript when final decisions are made but the course will not be there.  It has been a week and the school has not changed his schedule.  Both of my kids are in physics, which they have already taken, and do not want to retake and are waiting to drop.  In the meantime, they have to attend class and spend time on physics homework, which they have already done in past years at home.

 

Thirdly, the school has given my kids free periods at different times, which makes it inconvenient for us.  If they both had a spare first thing in the morning, they could sleep in.  Or, if they both had a spare at the end of the day, they could both leave early.  There is no busing at this school so I drive them 20 minutes each way.  

 

Fourthly, the conductor of the orchestra has decided that one of my kids is a virtuoso and the other is not.  One of my sons is concertmaster and the other has been placed randomly in the middle of the orchestra.  This has been extremely confusing for all of us and has driven us all up the wall.  Both of my sons are excellent musicians; they have been in about five orchestras and have performed in dozens of festivals and have taken a dozen music exams and they always have been at the same level. 

 

Fifthly, because they are wiped out at the end of the day, my sons have no time to study for the SAT and practice music as much as before. They both scored 99% on the PSAT and got 1470/1600 on a Kahn Academy SAT test this summer.

 

Sixthly, now that one of my sons is the leader of the orchestra, he has instant friends in the hallways, while my other son is ignored.  I wonder if the other students in school think something is wrong with him because of the conductor’s decision.  He says it does not matter, and he does not want to bother trying to make friends any more but I am really bothered by it.  He also does not want to go with the orchestra for a weekend camp experience.  We have spent our lives making sure both sons are treated fairly and that one is not superior or dominant, so that they both can just do their best.  Unfortunately, my one son, who is the concertmaster has become spiteful toward his brother, saying hurtful comments, criticizing his appearance and behaviors.  We have considered having them talk with the conductor but we really do not know what reaction we would get. The conductor could take away the opportunity for my one son and then he would be unhappy, or the conductor could promise to give my other son the same opportunity later in the year, but will he change his mind by then?  What about the perception that my son faces now?  University applications would not see that concertmaster experience for my other son because it will be too late.

 

The best thing about this public school experience is that my say that the material is easy for them and they know they would do well, even though is has only been a week and it has only been review work.  So that makes me happy.

 

I would really appreciate any advice on what we should do next.  If they both stay in public school, I foresee one son flourishing, getting more confident, arrogant, and overpowering his brother.  I see the other son becoming more miserable, isolated and depressed.  If we put one in school, then the other son will still feel like he is missing out.  If we pull them both out of school, I am not sure what will happen.  I want them both to be happy and both of them to continue with their music and do well in school.

 

Thank you, 

 

Rachel

 

 

 

 

 

     

[regentrude]

This is a tough situation. You say they are 17 years old and applying to colleges. I would let each young man make the decision for himself whether he considers it worth continuing in public school or whether he would prefer to return to homeschooling. Just because they have always done everything together does not have to mean they continue to do so. They may make different decisions. I would support my sons in whatever schooling decisions they make, while at the same time educating them about the realities of getting accepted into college as homeschoolers. If you have them look at the yearly acceptance threads, they will see that homeschool graduates are accepted to all kinds of colleges, and among them to the top colleges of the country. They may still choose top remain in ps, but at least they should make this choice based on correct information. Good luck with whatever they decide.

Edited September 11, 2016 by regentrude

[Dmmetler]

As far as the orchestra thing, usually chair placements are made from an audition, so it's very possible for two similar kids to have different results if one has a good day and the other doesn't. Usually there is a policy to challenge for a higher chair down the road.

 

I don't know how a guidance counselor would ever miss getting an English class on a schedule for a senior. That's a definite error that should be fixed ASAP.

Edited September 11, 2016 by dmmetler

[angela in ohio]

It sounds like, despite being twins, they each have their own individual personality, and they are using this opportunity of gaining some space of their own to do their own things. I don't actually know a set of twins where one *isn't* more outgoing than the other and one more quiet. I would trust the son who says he is happy with fewer friends. If it doesn't work out, and he does end up unhappy, he can choose at 17 whether he is unhappy enough to trade off what he sees as the benefits of the school.

 

Have you verified that they will be able to graduate from this school? Are they transferring all of their credits from homeschooling in so that they have enough to graduate? If so, they should see they already have a physics credit. I would keep fighting on that one, and on getting an English class, but I don't think you have a case on the different free times. When you decide to use a public school's services, you give up some control. Scheduling their study hall early or late to allow them to leave or sleep in is not their priority; making sure everyone in the school has the classes they need is.

 

I think a priority in raising multiple children in a home isn't in making sure everything is fair so they aren't tempted to be mean, but in teaching them not to be mean to each other in general. If you have artificially kept everything even and fair all this time by controlling their environment, it will be a bit of a bump to teach them now, but definitely worthwhile. We dealt with this early because my girls were two year apart, very close, and they had strengths in different areas. It was a great lesson for them.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by angela in ohio

[FriedClams]

I think when you give over the reigns to the school, they're in charge. Class placement, schedules, orchestra etc. - it's all up to them. You can ask, but they have veto power. To expect the school to keep them together, or schedule their free periods together would be nice, but I wouldn't even think to ask about it. To the school, I'd assume they just have two new students. I think the only think you have any reasonable argument about is the English class. I'd fight for that.

Edited September 11, 2016 by FriedClams

[Harriet Vane]

The one thing worth fussing about is the English class. The bureaucracy will not be sympathetic to any of your other concerns. I'd pitch a big fit about English and keep whining until that is accomplished.

[J-rap]

What do your sons want to do?  That would be my first question.  Are they juniors or seniors?

 

They will probably separate and go their own ways eventually;  this just forces it to happen a little sooner, I suppose.  Perhaps the one who is not as happy there would like to come home after the semester or after this year (if he is a junior).  It really is okay to have a homeschool degree.

 

The English thing is kind of bizarre.  How could a school not have English offered to all students?  

 

We had several types of experiences in high school, and one of them was like yours.  In our small town, our kids also had the opportunity to take classes at the local high school, which they did part-time.  A few of my children did it almost full-time for a year or two.  There were still classes here and there that they needed to take though, but because they had been mostly homeschooled, they hadn't quite covered the necessary requirements to graduate from the public school.  Because they had a free period (study hall), they were given permission to do one or two homeschool classes during that period.  Those classes were then transferred over to the public school in the same way that they'd be transferred from a private or on-line school.  So maybe that would be a possibility for you regarding English?

 

But our experience that was most like yours was when we temporarily moved to a new city for one year.  Two of my daughters who are artists -- in different areas, were accepted into an arts charter high school.  It was their first time in a public high school full-time, and they were just one year apart.  One daughter is extremely outgoing and absolutely loved everything about it and had lots of friends.  The other is an introvert and hated everything about it and had no friends.  (Not just because she was an introvert -- there were numerous reasons.)  

 

They both pretty much laugh about it now (it was 8 years ago now!), but back then it seemed so important and overwhelming.  We ended up returning to our hometown after that one year, where they returned to their half home-school/half public-school lives.  It all turned out okay, but it was certainly a stressful year for me and the one daughter.  If we had decided to stay there, then my one daughter would have changed to a program in our state where she could take high school classes in college, just to get out of that high school.  (I offered to homeschool her too, but her preference was the college choice.)

 

So, I guess I'd be working hardest right now on figuring out what to do with your son who is not as happy there.  Does he want to homeschool again?  However, I'd also be working very hard at changing the attitude of the other son who isn't treating his sibling with kindness.  They are probably finding that they have different strengths and personalities, but they still need to be treating each other with kindness.

[Lanny]

DD was in a small group (65 kids total) who began in K4 in the Brick and Mortar school ($$$$) she was in for K4, K5 and First grade. I forget how many sets of Twins they had among those 65 kids.  They separated the Twins and put them into different classrooms.  Trying to make them do everything together and be identical in their interests and abilities, would be, IMO, a mistake and I suspect that's why that school separates Twins.  The time may have come for them to be separated and go on their different paths.  GL to both of them!

[Plink]

The school's position on everything other than English (and maybe Physics) sounds entirely reasonable.  I'd pick just one thing to talk with them about in order to effect change.  If you walk into the office with a laundry list of complaints they will just write you off as the overly-controling homeschool mom.  Fix the classes.  Ignore the rest.

[justasque]

<speaking gently> Here is some advice; take what you like and leave the rest.
 

1) Putting together a student's schedule in high school is a complicated thing that has to take into account not only what the student would like to take, but also the schedule of classes.  Everything has to fit together, and it's not always possible to take two particular classes if they meet at the same time.  In addition, each class has a limit on how many students can be enrolled, and if you didn't enroll back when they made the initial schedules (probably in early spring), you are stuck with lots of classes being already full.  It is unrealistic to think that your boys can have exactly the same schedule.
 
2) One advantage of homeschoolers going to high school is to give them some opportunities to be independent from mom before they hit college (when mom is expected to be completely out of the picture).  With this in mind, your kids are going to get different teachers, with different expectations.  More assigned work can be an advantage, or a disadvantage.  It is what it is, and they should deal with it.  My only concern would be that they are actually in two different tiers of math - double check to be sure they are both on the same track, and if not, find out why.
 
3) You absolutely must be down at the school talking to the guidance folks every single day until your son is enrolled in an English class.  Do not let your other concerns overshadow this extremely important problem.  This needs to be your first priority.
 
4) Do you know why your sons are enrolled in Physics?  Is it because students of their grade generally take Physics and it's not really logistically possible to have them in something different?  Is it because the fact that they've already taken it has not been recognized by the person who made their schedules?  Given the English situation, that wouldn't surprise me.  You need to be at the guidance office every single day about this to get some answers.  
 
5) The fact that your kids do not have the same free periods is something you are going to have to live with.  Usually, a student's schedule is planned out, fitting in as many of the desired courses as possible and making compromises or work-arounds for the ones that don't.  The free periods usually come out of that process.  It is usually unrealistic to request a specific free period, let alone the same one for two different kids.  It's usually just not logistically possible.  Your boys can and should use their free periods to get a head start on their homework, and/or to access resources like the school library.
 
6) The orchestra situation is what it is.  The best you can do is to have your ds ask what he needs to do to move to a different position.  
 
7) If they both scored 99% on the PSAT, they likely do not need extensive SAT prep after school.  Let them take the exam at the next sitting, and then go from there if they really need additional study.  School *is* exhausting.  Let them have some time and space in which to adjust.  They are learning all kinds of new things; not all of which will show up on a standardized test, but which are important nonetheless.  You will not be managing their time in college.  Let them decide on their priorities (and make some mistakes) while they are still at home.
 
8) Let your sons be the different people they are.  Let them make their own choices about friends and extracurriculars.

9) It is completely unacceptable for your son to make hurtful/spiteful comments towards his brother.  You need to help guide them into accepting that they are different than each other, and that's OK.  You've got a lot of work to do there.  They need to learn how to treat each other as they walk this new path side by side, but separately.  Discussion about feelings, and about how to act when faced with a difficult social situation, is in order.  Once you've got the schedules worked out, this needs to be your priority.

So in summary -

Go to the guidance office TOMORROW and get the schedules worked out.  Make sure you understand what the course choices are, and where the boys have been placed in terms of different tracks.  Make sure both boys have English, make sure they do not have Physics, and make sure there is a tentative plan for what they will take in future year(s) to be sure they have what they will need at graduation.  The school should have some kind of written course selection document that lays out the various courses and graduation requirements.  With that in mind, also double-check that they will accept your homeschool credits towards graduation.  

Talk to the boys TONIGHT about how they are to treat each other - sensitive to feelings, accepting differences in interests and abilities and friendships.  Explain that they are to be supportive of each other, but that doesn't mean they have to do all the same things or have the same friends.  This is going to be a HUGE turn=around from what they've been living up until now, so acknowledge that and let them know it will be an ongoing process for all involved.

This is a big change for all of you.  Good luck.

[wapiti]

Another vote for making sure the English thing gets handled ASAP.

 

As for separating twins, that's unavoidable at the high school level and from the school's perspective, keeping them together for same classes is an unreasonable request bordering on the absurd.  (There are over 200 kids in 8th grade with my twin boys.  By coincidence, they have one class together this year.)

 

On the rest, you give up the benefit of a custom-fit education in public school.  My biggest concern would be college applications since it sounds like selective schools may be possible with their test scores.  Their individual goals should drive this decision.  If it were me, I might suggest to them that CC/DE is an option to finish out this last year of high school (they are seniors, yes?), after which they'd graduate with a homeschool diploma.  At this point, their college searching should be underway, and each college should have something on their website about admissions for homeschoolers - perhaps that would be comforting to them, as well as some of the discussions here at WTM.  (Maybe someone else can comment on whether the homeschooling board at College Confidential might also be worth a look.)

 

Maybe I misunderstood, but if they already took calculus, what courses did the school put them in?  That could be a huge factor for whether it makes sense to stay in the PS.

Edited September 11, 2016 by wapiti

[MIch elle]

You the parent have more control than you think within the public school system.  If you want your sons in the same classes, and they are OK with it then take it to the top; principle then superintendent in person and in writing.  Our public school system will do what parents want IF the parent is relentless and persistent.

 

I've seen it many times in our public school system.

[Pawz4me]

Is the school on the semester system? If so your DS will be placed in the necessary English class in the spring semester. Colleges are used to seeing transcripts that don't yet have all required courses. It's no big deal at all. He will be required to submit a final transcript after the school year ends anyway. Of course if the school isn't on the semester system what I've just posted doesn't apply and you really need to get it changed.

 

As far as the rest of it -- nothing would bother me overly much if it were my sons. I'd be happy they were getting a chance to learn some independence from each other (which they will have to learn eventually).

[JennSnow]

I agree with others..aside from the english class I think you need to let the rest go.

Your boys not being placed together..having math teachers with different approaches to teaching..having separate break periods that are scheduled at inconvenient times..being tired at the end of the day..not being placed in orchestra in what you feel is a fair assessment of skill for one boy..one boy being more popular than the other..honestly, those are all compromises that need to be made when the decision is made to go to public school.

I would let each kid know that if they want to continue on with the public school so that they can "grow as people", graduate from a brick and mortar institution, etc..then these are the compromises that come along with that decision.  I would then let each boy make the decision for himself whether he would like to continue on or return to homeschooling. Be prepared that one may like to stay in the public school while the other makes the decision to come home..it's okay if that happens :).

As far as one son treating the other poorly..that's an issue of the heart and needs to be addressed as a family..it has nothing to do with the school.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'd be livid about the English class situation.  The rest...eh what can you do.  Different teachers do things in a different way.  Either of those methods you describe sounds ok to me.  The other parts...you sign up for their school you play by their rules.  That's how it goes.

 

It could be much worse.  You know what would happen if I put my kids into school at 17?  They'd make them start as freshmen.  They wouldn't count any of my homeschool stuff even though I live in a high regulation state.  So they are at least acknowledging the work you've all put in to that extent.

 

 

[Okra]

I would go up there and sit in the office until someone talks to you about the English class.  This needs to be fixed immediately. While you are there, try to enroll them in a different science.  They should not take physics again, unless they are enrolled in AP physics.  This is the time to explain that while you can make it work, it would be easiest for the family to have the free periods at the same time.  People who work in schools are real people.  They understand.  If they can make it happen they will.  But, there might be a possibility that they cannot make it happen.

 

Basically, you need to realize that it okay for parents to go in and talk to the counselor.  I would go in and sit and wait until counselor can speak with you.

 

You said your sons were okay with being in different classes..............I'm not certain why you wouldn't honor this.  They are 17.  Sometimes their lives will be different, and that's okay.

 

Do not mention anything to the orchestra conductor as I'm certain this will not go well.  Sometimes people have bad days on auditions.  It just happens.  Yes, it's hard.

 

And, lastly, if one of your sons wants to come home and homeschool, and one wants to stay in Public school, that should be an option.  They aren't the same people, they don't have to have the same school experience.  Home schoolers  are accepted into colleges all the time.  Give each son the choice!  Why not?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[daijobu]

My dd tried a regular school after always being homeschooled and faced similar but different annoyances, mostly classes that were disappointing and not fitting her needs.  She ended up dropping out and returning to homeschool, but it was always her choice.  

[Corraleno]

Has the school agreed upfront that your boys will be allowed to graduate from the high school, not just enroll? Has the school accepted all their homeschooled credits, and will they include them on the school's transcript? In many states, unless the homeschooled credits are validated or accredited somehow, public schools will not accept them. I would want to be really sure that the school is going to accept all the credits and let them graduate on time, because otherwise they are either going to be spending an extra year or two in high school, or they're going to be applying to college as homeschoolers anyway.

 

 

[Harriet Vane]

Any updates? 

 

:lurk5:

[Lanny]

Has the school agreed upfront that your boys will be allowed to graduate from the high school, not just enroll? Has the school accepted all their homeschooled credits, and will they include them on the school's transcript? In many states, unless the homeschooled credits are validated or accredited somehow, public schools will not accept them. I would want to be really sure that the school is going to accept all the credits and let them graduate on time, because otherwise they are either going to be spending an extra year or two in high school, or they're going to be applying to college as homeschoolers anyway.

 

I wondered about this too.  I don't think the OP included information about what grade they were in. If they had Home Schooled part of High School and then transferred into a Public High School, in most states I believe that would cause an issue, because they might need to test out of certain subjects or repeat them in the Public School.   Hopefully the OP will post again with some additional information.

 

ETA:  I just read the first part of the OP again. They are 17 years old, so I assume they are not Freshman.  The OP wrote that they wanted a Diploma from a Brick and Mortar school.   The brick and mortar public school will give them credit for their Home School High School courses?  I wonder which state they are in?

Edited September 19, 2016 by Lanny

[FaithManor]

I wondered about this too. I don't think the OP included information about what grade they were in. If they had Home Schooled part of High School and then transferred into a Public High School, in most states I believe that would cause an issue, because they might need to test out of certain subjects or repeat them in the Public School. Hopefully the OP will post again with some additional information.

 

ETA: I just read the first part of the OP again. They are 17 years old, so I assume they are not Freshman. The OP wrote that they wanted a Diploma from a Brick and Mortar school. The brick and mortar public school will give them credit for their Home School High School courses? I wonder which state they are in?

Not likely Michigan? Very few ps's in this state give credit for homeschool for high schoolers because there is zero oversight. Some are more leniant in this regard if there wss a lot of outsourcing ie. DE or if the parent had the student take SAT 2's or AP's.

[Pen]

Issues:

How the two brothers are treating each other--work on this at home right away.

Social life/friendship -- see if other activities, sports, outside orchestra, etc.,  will help the boy having more trouble.

Class placement -- some should be fought for and changes made (especially to get English), some let go.  (By your description, I cannot tell which math class is "better." Just that they are different.)

 

My son is running cross-country which has been great for him socially as a transition from home school to public. Maybe your other son needs something like that. 

 

To "grow as people" seems like a great goal. But nasty behavior from the one boy to the other does not sound like proper "growth" as a person. The one twin sounds like he is becoming a bully...at least emotionally speaking. 

 

Finally, are there other options beyond what you have considered? A different public school or a private school or even a boarding school for the son who does not seem to be thriving in the new environment?

[Pen]

Possibly as someone else to talk with besides the school in terms of guidance and placement counselors, a school psychologist if there is one, or an outside therapist with regard to the family dynamics, and " one son flourishing, getting more confident, arrogant, and overpowering his brother.  I see the other son becoming more miserable, isolated and depressed"    would be helpful.

 

I agree that you need to know if the boys will be getting a diploma from the school or just being allowed to take classes there. 

 

IME some public schools will not give a diploma even if the prior school was brick and mortar unless at least 3 years are done there (such as Stuyvesant High in NYC, unless this changed since I was a student).

[RachelGoorbarry]

Thank you for all the wonderful replies.  The English course and other course issues were solved by my kids who spoke to the guidance counselor about everything.  In a rehearsal last week, my kid (not the school concertmaster one) helped the other kids with fingerings, bowings, phrasing and such.  The conductor then offered him principal second violin and said to both my kids that they will alternate principal spots all year.  It will be a privilege for both of them to have that leadership experience. 

Thank you for the replies, it was nice to read different perspectives.

[Lanny]

Not likely Michigan? Very few ps's in this state give credit for homeschool for high schoolers because there is zero oversight. Some are more leniant in this regard if there wss a lot of outsourcing ie. DE or if the parent had the student take SAT 2's or AP's.

 

Not likely TX either

[Mike in SA]

Not likely TX either

 

TX is pretty lenient.  As long as documentation is sound, they are required to accept home school credit.  We had no issues whatsoever.

[Shellydon]

TX is pretty lenient.  As long as documentation is sound, they are required to accept home school credit.  We had no issues whatsoever.

 

Interesting. I have 3 friends in TX that attempted to enroll their children as 10th or 11th graders and the school would not accept any of their homeschool work.  They had to return to 9th or not enroll.

[Mike in SA]

Interesting. I have 3 friends in TX that attempted to enroll their children as 10th or 11th graders and the school would not accept any of their homeschool work.  They had to return to 9th or not enroll.

 

It's all about quality of documentation showing evidence of attainment of standards.  Texas legal code legitimizes a bona fide education - you just have to meet the definition.

 

I suspect the friends didn't have sufficient documentation for some (or all) of the courses.  That, unfortunately, is a common problem.  We heard from the local school office that some home school families have nothing at all to show, creating a quandary for the school.

 

We document like crazy, including TEKS cross-references, thorough planning before hand, all grades and work performed, daily lesson schedules, and so on.  We might do better than most school teachers, but we do know that we met no resistance whatsoever - all credits accepted, including those which (in a public school) would have required end of course exams.  We had to ask for a Latin placement exam - they would have placed DS in whatever level we asked for, because he had studied it for four years already.

 

ETA: One local issue the schools have had to deal with is a proliferation of the use of co-ops as a replacement for education.  Co-ops can be a great thing, but in our area, they have become a 1-day-per-week replacement program.  Pretty much nobody can learn a subject in the course of a year if they only apply themselves once per week for an hour.  We provided low (or zero) cost tutoring to a couple of students each year - we couldn't stand seeing the kids get NO education at all - if their parents were able to bring their kids to us.  Unfortunately, most of these kids have no chance of meeting any educational standard according to the level their parents are placing them.  Many couldn't pass the easiest tests we could write for them.

 

I don't know if this behavior extends across Texas, but I can definitely understand why school counselors might be extremely cautious.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Mike in SA

[Pen]

Sounds like a wonderful resolution!