I have to follow through, don't I

[SparklyUnicorn]

I couldn't say for sure. But I know I have anxiety over leaving the house when I know my stomach is likely to be upset and panic at the idea of having to drive over an unexpected bridge, so I'm guessing there's a spectrum, with mild anxiety at one end and full blown panic and something like, say, agoraphobia or OCD on the other. That's just me guessing based on my own experiences though!

 

Some time ago I had what I'd call an attack.  I called it an anxiety attack.  It was a lot worse than dreading something.  But then I told a therapist that and she said oh you mean a panic attack?  I don't know!.  It just sucked.  That's all I know.  :laugh:

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't disagree with you at all. I would just hate to see anyone here being unduly harsh with Farrar--who, in general, seems to be a very caring, compassionate, thinking mom and not a harsh, knee-jerk disciplinarian--when we really have very few details. And especially when those details were shared at 2:24 a.m. (her time) when everyone was sleep-deprived and emotionally spent!

 

Oh she definitely is great!

 

Hope she is having fun at Six Flags right now. 

[katilac]

I deal with this sort of thing with my DD, and she IS on medication (it's much, much worse in various ways  when she's not), prescribed by a pediatric psychiatrist, and she DOES see a therapist, and HAS seen a doctor to rule out physical  causes. Even when things are "under control" it's not always a walk in the park. None of those things are an instant or 100% cure even in combination.

 

And anxiety freakout is not necessarily the same thing as a panic attack.

 

Don't assume that a parent isn't handling the overall situation of a child's illness poorly just because they are processing discipline issues and where the line is between illness and bad behavior that a kid can control. It sounds from the OP that her son has a coping strategy plan, that he didn't follow it, and didn't do what he's usually able to do to handle his insomnia and/or anxiety freak-out, and that she as the mom gave a consequence for not doing what she knows he is usually capable of, which she is now second-guessing, and is now second-guessing her second-guessing based on the school of thought that you should always follow through on discipline threats.

 

Read what I wrote previously about engaging = spinning up worse than just leaving the kid alone for  awhile. 

 

I also don't think that things said in the heat of the moment when one is not at one's best are what needs to be followed up on. If you tell a child when they are calm, when you are calm, here is the reasonable consequences for X, that's a different situation, especially if you then change your mind because of child's upset/freakout.

 

Bolding by me: I'm not assuming that at all! It sounded to me like OP might not be aware of how uncontrollable anxiety can be, so I thought it very important to point that out. 

 

Nowhere did I say that a physical checkup and therapy would solve all problems; they are simply a starting point if she hasn't already done that. 

 

An anxiety attack is not the same as a panic attack, but it's miserable and can also be difficult or nearly impossible to control. 

 

It's by no means meant as an insult to recommend therapy and a physical checkup. I'm not making a negative assumption that she's refusing to do those things or hasn't done those things - if she already has, great! But this isn't a physical conversation where I can ask her to clarify, so I'm mentioning my thoughts now, while I'm reading the thread and have the chance. 

 

This. Anxiety is not always panic. Often here, the anxiety takes the form of snippy, snarky haranguing that I can only put up with for so long, because none of my answers/suggestions/solutions/responses are acceptable. If I can get away from the haranguing, the child in question can usually de-escalate on her own. If I'm involved, it's like I'm a wall that needs to be battered down instead. So while it's not really ideal, I can see where a desperate, exhausted mom might say something like, "Do whatever you need to do, but go do it elsewhere." 

 

:grouphug:  to all of you, Farrar. I hope you managed to smooth things over and get to Six Flags today, and that everyone has a good time (and no exhaustion-related meltdowns are had, on anyone's part!). 

 

Sure, but the OP talks about hysterics, not snarky remarks. I'm responding to the information in the OP.  

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Some time ago I had what I'd call an attack.  I called it an anxiety attack.  It was a lot worse than dreading something.  But then I told a therapist that and she said oh you mean a panic attack?  I don't know!.  It just sucked.  That's all I know.  :laugh:

 

 

Yeah, me too. It was WAY more than anxiety. I truly thought I was going to black out and drive off that bridge, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it. I just did a quick Google and saw a few sites that were talking about the difference between anxiety attacks and panic attacks, so in terms of that extreme, there seems to be a difference, though maybe a subtle one. Don't have time to read now though--I'm already procrastinating on camp packing  :001_rolleyes:

 

Sure, but the OP talks about hysterics, not snarky remarks. I'm responding to the information in the OP.  

 

 

Oh, I know. But again, in the wee hours of the morning, hyperbole might not be unexpected, and our perspective on things is always warped at that time of day. I just think there's more (or less!) to the story than we're imagining, based on what I know of Farrar. 

[Lecka]

My thought was that maybe what she has been doing has been working, and now there is some escalation (or maybe just a random one-time event, bc random one-time events happen too) and suddenly what has been working doesn't seem to be working as well.

 

I am shocked sometimes how I am now doing things that are the opposite of "common sense parenting," but they are what is helpful.

 

Bc "common sense parenting" says one thing, but then the counselor for my oldest son had suggestions the opposite of "common sense parenting."

 

Bc common sense parenting IS to do certain things that just happen to backfire with some kids.

 

But I don't believe there are many people at all who somehow know to switch to some alternative to "common sense parenting" or "the parenting approach that sounds good to me and my friends think is good, too"...... To some specific "so the counselor/therapist recommends such-and-such" without going through some period of realizing that things are not working well and something needs to change but what..... As opposed to trying to do the common-sense parenting even more faithfully in order to see the promised result.

 

Bc the thing is, common-sense parenting is good, and so is following through, and so is setting clear boundaries for children.

 

So I don't think it is easy to see when it is time to hold steady with common sense parenting, and think things are a short phase or one-time event, and when it is time to switch to following recommendations that will be counter to common-sense, widely-accepted, widely-effective parenting practices.

 

But I think it is fine to say that widely-accepted, widely-effective parenting practices were practiced but it doesn't seem quite right to follow through, even though that is common-sense parenting.

 

And then hear "stay strong, stay the course" or hear "maybe this is not the time for common-sense parenting."

 

Bc there is no doubt, following through on a consequence is a major principle of common sense parenting.

[Ravin]

It looks the same sometimes, but it isn't. I don't think you can treat it like a tantrum, Just my 2c.

 

My point was exactly that.

[BooksandBoys]

nm

Edited August 5, 2016 by BooksandBoys

[hornblower]

Although they seem to be used interchangeably. Is there an actual clinical difference?

Anxiety disorder and panic disorder are two different things in the DSM with different diagnostic criteria and treatments.

[Denisemomof4]

Farrar, I have a special needs adult living with us whi has a panic disorder. I totally relate to your scenario. I am not going to give you input on how to handle Six Flags, but in the future, consider a stress box to use when he has times of high stress. Think of things he can do to disengage from the situatiob at hand. What works for us is deep breathing and counting in smaller situations, trying to prevent escalation. Once the top has blown off, we go right to music (with full headphones) and sometimes she will play video games. Maybe when times are calm you can come up with ideas which will work for him. When he starts to draw you all in, help direct him to his coping techniques. Fir my lady, once she isnfully escalated, I will suggest X number of songs. She gets lost in her music and then we can move on.

[Denisemomof4]

Farrar, I have a special needs adult living with us whi has a panic disorder. I totally relate to your scenario. I am not going to give you input on how to handle Six Flags, but in the future, consider a stress box to use when he has times of high stress. Think of things he can do to disengage from the situatiob at hand. What works for us is deep breathing and counting in smaller situations, trying to prevent escalation. Once the top has blown off, we go right to music (with full headphones) and sometimes she will play video games. Maybe when times are calm you can come up with ideas which will work for him. When he starts to draw you all in, help direct him to his coping techniques. Fir my lady, once she isnfully escalated, I will suggest X number of songs. She gets lost in her music and then we can move on.

[luuknam]

Anxiety disorder and panic disorder are two different things in the DSM with different diagnostic criteria and treatments.

 

Yes, but people were comparing "anxiety attack" and "panic attack". The DSM doesn't list such a thing as "anxiety attack".

[heartlikealion]

Yes, but people were comparing "anxiety attack" and "panic attack". The DSM doesn't list such a thing as "anxiety attack".

 

Yeah, that kinda threw me. Someone mentioned "situational anxiety" which I didn't even know was a term. I'm going to learn more.

 

[Farrar]

Okay, so this is funny... I hit post on this and then the boards went down for me. So I thought it didn't post. And then I didn't come online all day. Heh.

 

To respond to questions...

 

The therapist feels like it's *not* panic attacks and that we should draw more boundaries when he acts this way. I still think it was a natural and logical consequence of being up all night and keeping me and dh up all night. Well, dh was going to be up all night anyway, but during the course of Mushroom's screaming, he was nearly losing it because he was on deadline working. But, regardless, it just seemed stupid to go to an amusement park all day - like, it was just asking for more trouble. And, yes, like it was rewarding his behavior. He *can* keep it under control to a level that he simply did not last night. I mean, at one point, his circumvented dh to come barging back upstairs and wake me and his brother up. And he did it *to* wake us up again and get more attention. He had dh. He had a space to cry. He had a set of strategies. He had an hour of my attention. Then an hour of dh's attention - all trying to get him to engage in those strategies. Which he has practice in. And, I know, it's not easy... but this was just a whole other level. Anxiety doesn't require that you have to move across the house and purposefully cause as much chaos as possible, which is basically what he did. 

 

He gets insomnia occasionally. Usually deals with it well. Maybe twice a year, usually before something medium big like this, but not always - it's very unpredictable and sometimes I'm braced for it and it doesn't come - he has a much bigger sleepless night that includes freaking out about not sleeping. It's never been this bad. Well, actually, that's not true. But he's never gone out of of his way during it to try and make things worse for everyone else.

 

Anyhoo...

 

He got about five hours total in the end. I probably got about three (he slept before I headed up to bed).

 

In the morning, dh and I talked about it and decided to offer to him alternatives. He decided he wanted to go with his friends and take the next several days off screens instead. I feel crummy about that as a consequence, just because it has zero to do with what happened. Dh liked it, but he's not all that thoughtful about consequences. Mushroom wanted to do acts of service for me (a common consequence in our house when you're horrible to someone). I felt like that didn't cut it, but I may change my mind. He said he was going to do something for me today anyway. We'll see. At the end of the day, I basically curled up on a bench and took a nap at Six Flags. I was beyond exhausted. And now my sleep is completely screwed up (which is why I'm up at 4 am). And he was a wreck at the end of the day too, but he was a super calm wreck. No drama.

 

And I wish we didn't have a social commitment today. Tomorrow we're seeing dh's play, so no other things. So that's good, I guess.

 

 

[heartlikealion]

Thanks for the update! Sounds good you are working with a therapist.

 

I am so sorry you got the short end of the stick. I think you should have gotten to take a rain check but I guess you felt you needed to go since they both wanted to. I don't think I could have done it. "I got three hours of sleep so we are not going." Lol

 

I am sure your sons are happy and I hope they appreciated what you did. Hope you can get some sleep before the play and social commitment.

[displace]

(Hugs)

[Amira]

Good luck, Farrar. Parenting is so incredibly hard sometimes.

[ktgrok]

I'm wondering if it was worse because he knew if he didn't keep it under control wouldn't get to go? Knowing there is a big consequence can make you way MORE anxious, and get even more wound up. And if DH was working, and unable to really work with him or be with him, then it make sense he was seeking someone else (you). By adding consequences (which makes sense in a normal situation) it just ramped everything up, you know? 

 

Next time I'd say "hey, sleep, no sleep, whatever, we'll have fun. No worries". And put a movie on for you to sleep through while he watches it, preferable in bed with you. 

 

but, I don't have insomnia, so take this as what it's worth, not much. I'm honestly working from what I know of working with anxious dogs, lol. So not exactly an expert. 

[Farrar]

I'm wondering if it was worse because he knew if he didn't keep it under control wouldn't get to go? Knowing there is a big consequence can make you way MORE anxious, and get even more wound up. And if DH was working, and unable to really work with him or be with him, then it make sense he was seeking someone else (you). By adding consequences (which makes sense in a normal situation) it just ramped everything up, you know? 

 

Next time I'd say "hey, sleep, no sleep, whatever, we'll have fun. No worries". And put a movie on for you to sleep through while he watches it, preferable in bed with you. 

 

but, I don't have insomnia, so take this as what it's worth, not much. I'm honestly working from what I know of working with anxious dogs, lol. So not exactly an expert. 

 

Dh thinks that made it worse. But at that point, I felt like he needed to understand the choice he was (probably) making. I didn't think I could take doing Six Flags. And he got it under control after I said that for the longest stretch before he actually passed out from screaming.

 

And while we had a good day, now I'm going to be "off" for the next two and it's not fun. I fell asleep at 7:30 last night, but if I go to sleep before 9 or so, I'm always up all night, no matter how tired I am. And that's exactly what happened. So I was up from 1:30 am until almost 6. Ugh.

 

He had the option of watching TV, reading a book, sleeping next to me, playing a calm down game on the iPad, and a million other things and we urged him repeatedly to do it. And he refused. He was not required to go to sleep. He wasn't required to stop crying even. He was only required to stop barging upstairs and waking other people up. We have many, many times talked about how it doesn't matter if you sleep, you can't force yourself to sleep, that the most important thing is staying calm. Sigh.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Farrar

[Rachel]

Thanks for the update, I kept checking in to see what happened. It sounds like a frustrating situation all around, but you handled it as best as you could.

[Lecka]

Hugs, I hate having disrupted sleep like that.

[ktgrok]

It honestly reminds me a bit of when I would laugh inappropriately, in a classroom or church. The more I knew I had to stop, the worse it got and the more impossible it became TO stop. So if a teacher saw me, and gave me a warning or punishment, it got worse, not better. I am wondering if the anxiety is the same, the more he knows he has to stop acting that way, the harder it is to stop acting that way. 

[Soror]

(hugs) to you Farrar, parenting isn't easy. 

[Farrar]

It honestly reminds me a bit of when I would laugh inappropriately, in a classroom or church. The more I knew I had to stop, the worse it got and the more impossible it became TO stop. So if a teacher saw me, and gave me a warning or punishment, it got worse, not better. I am wondering if the anxiety is the same, the more he knows he has to stop acting that way, the harder it is to stop acting that way. 

 

That's absolutely true. But he's his own worst punisher. He's way, way harder on himself than dh and I are. And he doesn't need us there to get into a spiral of freaking out about it. Like, we're often the ones standing there saying he won't be in trouble, we're not mad, etc. Part of the problem is that he likes to use us to be that voice so that he can continue to berate himself. He wants us to step in and tell him he's "good" so that he can continue to tell himself he's "bad." The main goal is for *him* to start fighting "the bad brain" (aka the anxiety) with his own words reminding himself that's he's "good." And the more we do it for him, the harder it is for him to do it for himself.

 

Other than to do some small reparations for me or his brother or dh (often a small chore that we would have had to do becomes his) and to do whatever task he didn't do when he was freaking out at a later time, we almost never give him any punishment or consequences for anything he does that's anxiety influenced. But he doesn't have the right to use anxiety as an excuse to terrorize us. I mean, we're trying here too and gave him a lot of ways out. He's not so far gone that he can't take some iota of responsibility. At least, that's how I feel.

[ktgrok]

Gotcha..okay, i know some of what you speak. That's such a crappy spot to be in. Where you finally want to say, Yes, you re right you are a horrible person, now freaking go to bed!

[Farrar]

You know, I want to be clear... I feel fine about how I handled him. I mean, at one point dh sort of yelled because he was on deadline and frustrated. And at another point when he came upstairs, I had to force him back down and I also raised my voice. But I don't feel like anything I did was inappropriate. I don't feel bad about it. I still feel like if it hadn't been an impossible situation to make it work for everyone that him missing the day with friends and me getting to sleep in would have been a completely reasonable outcome and consequence for that.

 

And overall, ds is doing soooooo much better in the last couple of months. We haven't had an outburst of this level in several months (and never in the middle of the night). But he's been at sleepaway camp and then with friends all week (my little introvert) and he was definitely ready for this week's break. But overall, I also feel fine about all the CBT style interventions we've got going on for him and how we are handling his anxiety overall.

 

I mostly was just exasperated because I realized that the "right" consequence and the one I had already promised (but ultimately didn't end up doing) backed us all into a bad corner.

[Miss Tick]

I think we've all been in that corner at some point. Hope your sleep gets back on track sooner than you expect.

[katilac]

Thanks for the update and clarifications! 

 

I wouldn't fret about the unrelated consequence - you can always say that you're testing to see if too much screen time alters his behavior  :laugh:

 

 

[Jaybee]

Thanks for the update and clarifications! 

 

I wouldn't fret about the unrelated consequence - you can always say that you're testing to see if too much screen time alters his behavior  :laugh:

 

Yes. And after reading the update, I have to say it is just hard when the consequences given affect others and cause a parent to have to rethink. If it were only that child and the parent affected, I would have no trouble saying, "Sorry, dude, I have GOT to sleep!" But when the other child and perhaps the friends also are disappointed and punished, which can build resentment, it makes it a lot harder.

[ktgrok]

You know, I want to be clear... I feel fine about how I handled him. I mean, at one point dh sort of yelled because he was on deadline and frustrated. And at another point when he came upstairs, I had to force him back down and I also raised my voice. But I don't feel like anything I did was inappropriate. I don't feel bad about it. I still feel like if it hadn't been an impossible situation to make it work for everyone that him missing the day with friends and me getting to sleep in would have been a completely reasonable outcome and consequence for that.

 

And overall, ds is doing soooooo much better in the last couple of months. We haven't had an outburst of this level in several months (and never in the middle of the night). But he's been at sleepaway camp and then with friends all week (my little introvert) and he was definitely ready for this week's break. But overall, I also feel fine about all the CBT style interventions we've got going on for him and how we are handling his anxiety overall.

 

I mostly was just exasperated because I realized that the "right" consequence and the one I had already promised (but ultimately didn't end up doing) backed us all into a bad corner.

 

I hear you. I think you are trying to say it wasn't even a punishment, it was just the natural consequence. But for various reasons it didn't work out. Sounds really hard. I have a hard kid, and I get that what seems reasonable from the outside doesn't always with your actual kid. I want to apologize if at all I acted like I knew better than you...with hard kids, no one knows better than the parent actually dealing with it. 

[Denisemomof4]

Aaah, the sensory overload. It gets to my cliebt and RAD daughter every time. It is so hard to balance at times.

 

I am pushing for CBT for my client. Has it made a huge difference? Does your son go alone or do you go as a family?

[Farrar]

Aaah, the sensory overload. It gets to my cliebt and RAD daughter every time. It is so hard to balance at times.

 

I am pushing for CBT for my client. Has it made a huge difference? Does your son go alone or do you go as a family?

 

Him mostly alone. I pop in too sometimes. Dh has been with him once.

 

I dunno. His issues aren't (usually) that severe. So it's hard to say for sure. But yeah, I think it's made a difference.