College math placement

[Blossom'sGirl]

My ds registered for his freshman year at college.  They are telling him he needs to start with College Algebra, and we are questioning this based on his background.  They are now asking him what he did because they do not see college algebra on his transcript.  They are also asking him what class he thinks he should take.

 

 

So I am going to layout his math experience to you college veterans for suggestions.  He started algebra in 8th grade using Foerester' text and Math Without Borders.  He took his time and finished it halfway through 9th grade.  Next he did Life of Fred Geometry and finished it halfway through 10th grade.  Then he did Lial's Intermediate Algebra and finished it halfway through 11th grade.  He then decided to do Advanced Algebra from Life of Fred which he finished right before his senior year.  His senior year he did Teaching Textbooks Pre-Calc.  I found his grades from Intermediate Algebra and they are all in the 80's and 90's.  I did not grade Life of Fred Adv. Algebra, but I did grade his pre-calc where he maintained an average in the 90's.

 

Where would you suggest he start math in college?  He has never had classroom experience, but he did work independently, diligently and reliably his last year at home.  

 

One other factor in his decision is that he got a scholarship where he has to maintain a B+ average so he does not want to go too hard until he gets used to the college experience.

 

 

[Janeway]

Teaching Textbooks is pretty weak. But, I am unsure where he should have placed, but it is possible they placed him too low. What was his SAT math score? College algebra is pretty easy and might give him the GPA boost he needs, assuming the college will give him credit for it. Many colleges now will not give credit for anything below calculus unless you are an education major.

 

Did they not give him a test for placement? If not, then I would really question that placement.

Edited July 16, 2016 by Janeway

[EKS]

Lial's Intermediate Algebra is *not even close* to college algebra.  It is Algebra I with a few extra topics.  The closest thing to college algebra on the list is TT Precalculus.  

 

Has he taken a placement test?  I would go with the results of that.

Edited July 16, 2016 by EKS

[JanetC]

Is there a syllabus or a sample final for the college algebra course? Some way to tell if he has seen the material?

[Blossom'sGirl]

Here is the course description:

MATH 1033 - College Algebra This course includes topics such as polynomials, radicals, exponents, coordinate geometry, rational expressions and equations, and solutions to linear and quadratic equations. Students are introduced to the concept of functions and their graphs. Additional topics may include conic sections, matrices, variation, and nonlinear inequalities. Emphasis will be placed on problem solving. A graphing calculator is required. Students cannot receive credit for MATH 1033 if they have credit for MATH 1054. Students cannot receive credit for MATH 1033 if they have credit for MATH 1063, MATH 1084, or any course for which MATH 1063 or MATH 1084 are prerequisites. A grade of C or better is required to take Math 2043, College Trigonometry. 
3.000 Credit hours 

 

[Blossom'sGirl]

I did not realize college algebra was different from Algebra 2.  His SAT math was a 610 (I think).  After reading this, I think maybe he should stay put unless he can somehow test out of it.

[JanetC]

LoF Advanced algebra and your precal text probably did a lot of this, the question is whether there was enough depth and challenge. What does your son think? Where did you think he should have been placed?

[regentrude]

I am surprised and find it unusual that  this college does not give a placement test to all entering students to determine the correct math placement and asks the students instead where they think they should go. That does not strike me as very promising for their math department.

 

I am not familiar with your precalculus text. Precalc usually combines college algebra and trigonometry, but if you are using a curriculum that is not particularly rigorous, I would recommend starting at College Algebra, especially since he does not want a more difficult class.

I would not advise a student with his math background to begin college by taking calculus 1.

Edited July 16, 2016 by regentrude

[teachermom2834]

My ds did Chalkdust algebra 1 in 8th, TT geometry, Jann in TX Algebra 2 class using Lial's , a semester of Precal algebra , a semester of precal trig, and statistics (last three courses dual enrollment). He got mostly A's and a few B's in those classes. His college placement test put him in pre cal again. It is frustrating but we are not going to challenge it. Better for it to be review than for him to drown and hurt his GPA and put his scholarship in jeopardy. While I am a bit frustrated I know in my gut it is the right placement.

[klmama]

FWIW, a friend's dc took TT Pre-calc, earned a B, and tested into college algebra using the COMPASS test.  I would start your ds there without any hesitation, especially since he needs to maintain his GPA.  

[Lanny]

Strange that the college did not test his Math skills and that they asked him which Math course he thinks he should take.  Since he took 1 1/2 school years to finish Algebra 1, which is *the* course, I assume from that he is weak in Math and should start with something easier in the college.    Since a scholarship is involved, easier courses will make it easier for him to maintain that B+ average...  The scholarship is an important consideration.  

[goldberry]

I did not realize college algebra was different from Algebra 2.  His SAT math was a 610 (I think).  After reading this, I think maybe he should stay put unless he can somehow test out of it.

 

Agree with this.  DD finished Alg II and Geometry (TT), then took College Algebra. Part of it was review, but part of it was new.  She did well.  

 

(DD scored 750 math on SAT, but that was after College Algebra. She has always been strong in math though.)

[Hilltopmom]

College math classes versus high school math class names are always so confusing to me.

 

So-College Algebra with trig ( that's what our CC calls it) is the same as high school pre calc?

 

A kid who has done well in Alg 1&2 could go into college algebra if they haven't taken high school precalc yet? Or they should take precalc first, then college algebra?

 

Our CC offers remedial & basic math classes, then college al with trig 1&2, then calculus.

[goldberry]

A kid who has done well in Alg 1&2 could go into college algebra if they haven't taken high school precalc yet? Or they should take precalc first, then college algebra?

 

 

 

DD did College Algebra and is taking Pre-Calc this upcoming year.  

[elegantlion]

Ds started college at the college algebra level (lots of reasons why). He then did Trig the next semester. His college did offer a one semester pre-calc, but he opted to spread it out over the year because 1. he also did 2 years of algebra i in high school 2. He had not taken college classes before and wanted to get used to the pacing and 3. he is also on a GPA dependent scholarship. He's glad he went that way even though he's going into a math intensive major. His college algebra professor provided quality teaching and feedback. His academic ability has also matured quite a bit in the last year. He's looking forward to Calc I and II for the upcoming year. 

 

I was glad he chose that route as I didn't want him to get burned out on math by going at a pace that was too fast for him. As evidenced by his algebra I experience he did better with a slow and steady approach. Everything he's interested in majoring in requires almost a math minor. He still excited about math and ordered some calc books to review on his own this summer. 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I've seen a number of different courses with a College Algebra label.  Sometimes it seems like an introductory Algebra 1 or Algebra 2 course.  Sometimes it is a course beyond Algebra 2 that is part of a pre-calc sequence. 

 

Look for a math sequence chart for the school and compare the course descriptions.  

 

(DS1 took courses at two different CC's.  His College Algebra course at one school was far harder than the Pre-Calc course at the second school.  Then again, the schools had very different student populations.)

[TechWife]

My ds registered for his freshman year at college.  They are telling him he needs to start with College Algebra, and we are questioning this based on his background.  They are now asking him what he did because they do not see college algebra on his transcript.  They are also asking him what class he thinks he should take.

 

 

I agree, he should start with college algebra if he has not already had it. If he has already had it, it should be on his transcript. 

 

Why does he think he shouldn't need it? Having high school algebra courses does not equate to college algebra. 

[G5052]

Assuming other course choices aren't hinging on it, I always recommend starting at the lower level class if there's some doubt. I'm really surprised they didn't test him, although some school place on the basis of SAT or ACT scores. 

 

My oldest easily tested into calculus on the basis of his SAT score, but we discussed the content of the college pre-calculus class with the professor, and there were enough gaps that we decided to have him start with pre-calculus. He used Saxon.

 

He's an accounting major, so nothing was dependent on it other than being able to get in his business calculus and a stats class before the end of his sophomore year.

 

There were enough gaps and differences that he had to work at it. Not hard, but he had to put in some effort. When he hit business calculus, he commented several times that he was so glad that he did pre-calc there first.

[MarkT]

For his major what math courses does he need to take?

[katilac]

I did not realize college algebra was different from Algebra 2.  His SAT math was a 610 (I think).  After reading this, I think maybe he should stay put unless he can somehow test out of it.

 

A 610 would place him solidly in pre-calc at our local university. Calculus requires a 630. 

 

I agree with checking on a placement test, maybe take a look at the math department on their web site. I would also try to get my hands on a syllabus for both classes to compare topics - I've had good luck searching for these both on the college web site and via google (My University math 101 syllabus). 

 

If their cutoffs are similar, and didn't struggle in TT pre-calc, I don't see why he couldn't take college precalc. It depends a bit on his personality, too. My oldest went one level down from her placement and was bored out of her mind. My youngest is like, Easy A, easy A! 

[creekland]

Have you asked the college if there's a placement test?  If not, can they offer to let him try a previous year's final to see how he does?  That should give you your answer as to where he should begin.

 

There is no simple answer to what "College Algebra" is.  At our high school, it's the course after Pre-Calc, but it merely sums up Algebra kids have already had in more depth.  It's a good course for those without strong Alg skills to take to bone up on those skills.  Some others skip the course and go right into Calc.

 

At other schools College Alg comes before Pre-Calc.  I've only heard of that, not seen it in action personally.

 

Two of my guys did TT Pre-Calc and then took our CC's math placement test.  Both tested easily into Calc and got As in Calc.  Middle son scored the highest on the placement test his adviser had ever seen (for a student who hadn't had Calc yet).  But... that doesn't mean your guy will.  So much depends upon how much they learned and retained (vs memorized) from the course.

 

Even though I knew where I thought my guys were at, they still did the placement test after Pre-Calc.  No regrets.

[Blossom'sGirl]

I really appreciate all the replies.  Ds did write the math department concerning a placement test.  If that doesn't happen, he has decided to go with college algebra.  

 

What do high-school students take in high school to go directly to college calculus?  I am curious because some of the other students he registered with were doing that.  This a mere curiosity because his particular major does recommend starting with College Algebra, so he wouldn't be behind even if he did take that course his first semester.  The math sequence for his major is: college algebra, trig, technical calc 1 & 2, and differential equations.  

[creekland]

What do high-school students take in high school to go directly to college calculus?    

 

At the high school where I work, the sequence goes:

 

Alg 1

Geometry

Alg II

Pre-Calc

 

then either:

 

College Alg

Calc

 

or 

 

Directly into Calc

 

It all depends upon their math ability.

 

Both College Alg and Calc can be taken for College credit (DE) if a student wants them to (and they get the grades, etc), but not all choose to use them for it.  Some colleges/majors also don't consider College Alg to be a college level course.

 

There's also the option to take Stats either DE or simply as a high school course (exact same course - students choosing each in the same class).

 

Those not wanting the college credit mainly want the intro to the subject and will retake it at college for college credit.

 

I did this homeschooling for Calc with my older two.  They both took Calc at home and did well, but retook it in college to be sure they had a decent foundation.  Oldest was bored and wished he'd taken the AP test to get out of it.  Middle was happy with an easy A his freshman fall semester - and had peers who wished they had chosen to retake Calc I rather than move on as they got Bs rather than As.  NOTE: There was a bit of a rigor difference between their two schools.

 

None of mine have ever taken College Alg - even my ps-in-high-school youngest.

 

Whether that's a needed course or not really depends upon how much students learn and retain in their earlier courses IME.

[regentrude]

What do high-school students take in high school to go directly to college calculus?  I am curious because some of the other students he registered with were doing that.  

 

Precalculus would suffice, if they thoroughly mastered it and pass the placement test which tests algebra and trig, but not any calculus.

Many have taken calculus in high school, but not AP; they will go into Calc 1 at college if they pass the placement test.

 

For our engineering and most science majors at the STEM uni where I teach, anything below calc 1 is considered remedial and does not count towards their majors.

Edited July 18, 2016 by regentrude

[Guest]

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Edited July 20, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[G5052]

Precalculus would suffice, if they thoroughly mastered it and pass the placement test which tests algebra and trig, but not any calculus.

Many have taken calculus in high school, but not AP; they will go into Calc 1 at college if they pass the placement test.

 

For our engineering and most science majors at the STEM uni where I teach, anything below calc 1 is considered remedial and does not count towards their majors.

 

My oldest is in a 2+2 business program and will be hopefully transferring to a nationally-ranked 4-year in 2017-2018 after completing an associate's at the local community college. They do not accept precalculus either, although it counts on his 2-year degree. 

[Blossom'sGirl]

Ds was told by the math department to go take the placement test.  He looked over the Compass practice math tests online and didn't see anything that stumped him.  If anything, this experience has been a good introduction to ds to be in charge of his education and what classes he will be taking.  

[TechWife]

Ds was told by the math department to go take the placement test.  He looked over the Compass practice math tests online and didn't see anything that stumped him.  If anything, this experience has been a good introduction to ds to be in charge of his education and what classes he will be taking.  

 

Did he actually take the placement test, not just look at practice tests? 

[Blossom'sGirl]

Did he actually take the placement test, not just look at practice tests? 

 

 

He looked at the practice tests yesterday to see what they cover.   He plans to take it next week at the college.

[kiana]

Taking the placement test is the best move. It is very, very common for students who had precalculus in high school to place into college algebra or precalculus, because they understood it well enough to pass their class but not well enough to do it on the placement test or in novel situations. 

 

At a university, college algebra almost always precedes precalculus (there are rare exceptions) and is usually somewhere between algebra 2 and the algebra half of high school precalculus, while precalculus includes more algebra and trigonometry. Some schools place by SAT/ACT scores, some use placement tests, and some use multiple methods of assessment. 

 

In most cases I think it's better to err on the side of starting in a class that's slightly too easy than too difficult, although not ludicrously easy. I'd only make an exception for that if your child is the type of student who shuts down and cannot pay attention in easy classes but rises to meet challenges. 

[FaithManor]

WMU uses SAT/ACT for admissions and have used it for placement. However, they are piloting a program to use the ALEKS in the future for all math placement regardless of other scores. This is because some kids are really good multiple choice test takers, but very, very poor at showing work on paper. They score higher on the SAT than they can actually handle class wise, and some kids are great mathematicians but not super speedy so end up due to score, placed lower than they should be. Its a problem that the math department feels is growing. 

 

The ALEKS is a really good exam. It is an interactive online program. The student actually uses paper and pencil to solve the problem and type in the correct answer instead of multiple choice. The proctor can send the scratch paper directly to the school if not taken on campus so the math department can see the student's work if they would like. The test begins with algebra 1 and if the student answers so many problems in a row in each topic successfully, moves along to the next topic. If not, it will give the student more problems in the same topic. If too many are wrong, the exam identifies it as a troubling topic for the student. So test is a bit tailored to the student as it goes, and will end if a student is clearly not progressing through topics well. So it better calculates what the student has mastered and hasn't. The tutoring program online caters the tutorials to the student's needs per the practice exam so the student can review the specific topics he or she missed. Sometimes it is a matter of definitely not having mastered a specific thing, and other times it is just that the student was rusty, hadn't used that skill in a while, and forgot a piece of terminology or something. Either way, the tutoring is very targeted.

 

My middle ds, the one headed to WMU this fall, missed getting out of pre-calc by 1 pt. The last time he took the SAT before scores were due for scholarship consideration (Dec. 1st if memory serves), he was recovering from pneumonia and had mono. I was SHOCKED he did as well as he did! At any rate, he was placed in pre-calc even though he'd completed calc 1, due to the SAT. That class though was conflicting with a biology class he wanted into, and the scheduling conflict couldn't be resolved. The math department offered to let him take the ALEKS since they were looking for "guinea pigs" so they can implement this next year. He handily scored into calc1 which he doesn't need, so the only math he needs for his major is a stats class that is not calc based. He can take that next semester, and he gets to have his speciality bio class this semester. He really liked the ALEKS and loved having paper and pencil to work out the headier problems. I suspect that it will probably be a better test for math placement than the SAT and ACT.

[regentrude]

WMU uses SAT/ACT for admissions and have used it for placement. However, they are piloting a program to use the ALEKS in the future for all math placement regardless of other scores. This is because some kids are really good multiple choice test takers, but very, very poor at showing work on paper. They score higher on the SAT than they can actually handle class wise, and some kids are great mathematicians but not super speedy so end up due to score, placed lower than they should be. Its a problem that the math department feels is growing. 

 

 

In addition, SAT/ACT cannot be used to determine math placement beyond remedial classes because neither of them tests a significant amount of trigonometry beyond rudimentary basics, and thus neither can ascertain whether a student could place past trig into calculus.

 

At any rate, he was placed in pre-calc even though he'd completed calc 1, due to the SAT.

 

Using the SAT to decide that a student needs to take precalculus makes no sense.

Edited July 20, 2016 by regentrude

[creekland]

In addition, SAT/ACT cannot be used to determine math placement beyond remedial classes because neither of them tests a significant amount of trigonometry beyond rudimentary basics, and thus neither can ascertain whether a student could place past trig into calculus.

 

 

Using the SAT to decide that a student needs to take precalculus makes no sense.

 

I was thinking the exact same thing.  How in the world can colleges use the SAT or ACT as a math placement test for anything beyond Alg II?  There's very, very little Trig on the tests and I don't recall a thing from the usual Pre-Calc topics.

 

I can see why any school using those scores could see super poor correlation and it's not necessarily because a student was good at multiple choice testing.

[FaithManor]

In addition, SAT/ACT cannot be used to determine math placement beyond remedial classes because neither of them tests a significant amount of trigonometry beyond rudimentary basics, and thus neither can ascertain whether a student could place past trig into calculus.

 

 

Using the SAT to decide that a student needs to take precalculus makes no sense.

I agree, but up to that point, they weren't using any other math placement test.

 

They prefer ACT because there is trig, though not a substantial amount, but we lost a bunch of testing centers this year when the state board of education decided to switch from using the ACT to the SAT for high school testing. Schools immediately stopped proctoring the ACT and moved over to the SAT. We were in a tight time frame for the scholarships and couldn't get a seat at one of the few testing sites in a decent driving area that are left for the ACT so went with SAT.

 

I guess the assumption for WMU was that if the student scored 610 on the SAT (I guess if they took high school calculus and have a B or better and have a 610 they can also get completely out of pre-calc), he or she was ready for pre-calc. Ds scored 609 which was low for him as he'd been getting over 700 on practice exams, but again, he was very sick. He nearly aced the ALEKS. Since he'd had calc 1 (DH taught him) but wasn't transferring it as a DE class nor took the AP, they offered to let him take the ALEKS calc 1 exam so he could go to calc 2. He told the math proctor at WMU that pre-calc was the highest math he needed for his major and while he loves math, his major requires 18 more credits than typical majors on campus due to it being a hybrid program that makes room for a lot of research the senior year, and he simply couldn't squeeze in courses he didn't need. LOL, they seemed disappointed.

 

At any rate, I love the test. Our eldest ds, my not natural born mathematician but a solid one, was still recovering from his head injury from the car accident when he had to take the ACT the last time. He did not do well. Thankfully, he had much higher scores from the previous year, and with a letter from his doctor, his schools were willing to overlook the free-fall in score. He took the ALEKS placement exam write before freshman orientation, and having a pretty well healed brain, did brilliantly. No remedial work, straight into his comp sci minor. Again, he also felt like the test was a gazillion times better than he had ever done on the ACT.

 

The rumor mill is that many Michigan state colleges and universities are going to move to using the ALEKS exclusively for college math placement. They'll accept the SAT or ACT for admission's consideration, but every student will eventually take the ALEKS. I have also heard from more than one English professor that they want to dump any and all placement in English based on either of those exams and go with a three essay system. They will consider the admission's essay, plus two more that are written in front of an approved proctor (they are willing to allow any public or private school teacher not related to the student perform this service) and then mailed to the department ahead of freshman orientation. I think that is wise as well. The SAT and ACT require graders to read and evaluate 10 essays per hour, the pay is low, and there are no educational requirements for the job. Not kidding. The collegeboard has been caught hiring people that do not have high school diplomas to grade essays for minimum wage. I don't know if they ended the practice, but many educators have noticed that kids can church out absolute blather, poor grammar, poor structure, no substance, essays for the writing portion of those exams and get high scores because it somehow satisfies the rubric. That isn't helping colleges figure out proper placement for those students either. WMU placed ds based on his college and scholarship essays. I was fine with that. Other ds wrote essays for class placement for U of MI, and I felt that not only were the writing prompts well thought out, but the grading was top notch, lots of good feedback for a start which is always helpful anyway, and a better judge of ability. The math and english placement had to be completed two weeks before orientation.

[Blossom'sGirl]

DS finally took the Compass placement test today.  Based on his score, they said he could take the College Algebra, Trig, or Technical Calculus 1.  Ds is leaning toward taking trig. for review.

[JanetC]

That sounds like a great outcome. I really like it when placement counselors give a range of possible placements and let the student collaborate. Much better than some schools which are too inflexible on these test scores mean that class.