Can we talk about Jesse Williams' speech?

[PeacefulChaos]

Did you guys see it?  Or hear about it today, at least?

 

I tried to find a full video of it but can't... I found this transcript of it, though.

 

 

Hopefully everything can stay civil - I'm not posting this to be a pot-stirrer, but because I really am a fan of what he said.

 

 

In some of the aftermath, however, Justin Timberlake has been called out because he tweeted in support of the speech - now, I'll admit I know basically nothing about JT, so I don't really know why.  My understanding is that the anger is because he 'appropriates' (not in quotation marks because I don't believe appropriation happens - I do; just because, again, I know nothing of JT so I'm not sure if that's the case here?) but doesn't speak out regularly on racial issues.

 

I have to admit that the whole conversation surrounding the JT tweet makes me uncomfortable, because I didn't know that music was something that could be appropriated.  Or are they speaking of his different hairstyles/ripping clothes off Janet Jackson period?  Or is it his music itself?

 

Where does the line get drawn with cultural appropriation and appreciation in music?  I'm very confused by the whole *thing* surrounding this - I think I have a good handle on what cultural appropriation is... I did not, however, consider it to extend to music.  

 

 

Thoughts?  On the speech itself and on cultural appropriation re: music?

[Farrar]

It was an incredible speech. I'm glad it got so much play today on social media.

 

I hadn't seen the JT thing. I dunno... his "we're all the same" response was very lacking. But nothing wrong with his support of the speech. Appropriation is absolutely something that can apply to music. It can apply to most anything. I have mixed feelings about the critique of it. I mean, sometimes it's exploitative. I mean, we can look back in history and see how record producers wanted to find someone like Elvis who could be white and sing African-American music and sound Black and we know his success was, in large part, predicated on that. And that's so obviously exploitative. He was able to make money in a way that was closed out to African-Americans by copying them. Which is not to say he wasn't a great artist.. And there's some line between cultural influences and exploitation and where is it? Because I don't know. I'm trying to listen... I think it's not a straightforward issue. Intersectionality and complexities.

 

Like... speaking of the BET Awards, Beyonce's Freedom performance was beyond amazing. But Bey was accused heavily of being appropriating of Indian culture in her video with Coldplay before the Superbowl. And, really, if you've seen it - it *was* super stereotype heavy. 

 

But Jesse Williams's speech... awesome.

[PeacefulChaos]

I can definitely see how, when I look at the exploitation, cultural appropriation happens in music.  I think there is a fine line somewhere in there and I don't know where it is.

 

Like if a white boy likes to rap, is that so bad?  If I want to rap, is that appropriation?  I'm oversimplifying, I know, but just looking at the way that things are intended and interpreted and everything... it's all so complex.

 

 

ETA: oh and yeah I agree on JT's responses. Lame.

Edited June 28, 2016 by PeacefulChaos

[LisaKinVA]

Music is a really difficult line to draw -- especially, since so much is based upon what we hear/experience as we grow up.  Do white kids who grow up in NOLA, and are surrounded by Jazz appropriate Jazz, or is Jazz as much a part of their culture/personal identity from growing up in NOLA? 

 

Music is not static. It grows and changes.  New styles are often built upon mixing previous styles...there is this crazy cool mixture of folk and dance music (link posted), which shows how the study of music evolves and changes -- where elements from one genre (be it classical, spirituals, gospel, soul, dance, disco, techno, alternative, pop, rock, etc.) are combined to form new, different and interesting sounds.  Similarly, the artists that create music are difficult to place into some specific, cultural box.  They study, listen to and love music in so many forms/styles -- I think it would be impossible to tell someone they can't use an instrument, sound, rhythm, key, tempo/time signature, because it was pioneered by, or founded within a certain community or racial group.

 

It's kind of like food -- it's a way to share and bring people together as part of a new experience. I don't think you can call for expanding cultural experiences and banning the practice of them at the same time, without ignoring the fact that very, very few cultures are 100% pure, untouched by empire building (since the beginning of civilization), trade, colonialism, missionary work, etc., etc.

[MercyA]

I thought the speech was amazing, for the most part, but am very interested in hearing others' thoughts about cultural appropriation in music.  :bigear:

[SproutMamaK]

I'll be honest in that I don't really understand the concept of appropriation. Are people not allowed to like or be good at certain things simply because those things originated in a different culture? Where is that line? Can I, as a white person, enjoy sushi? Can I serve sushi to guests? Can I start up a sushi restaurant? Can  a Chinese woman wear dreads? Can a Chinese woman appear on TV or a magazien wearing dreads? Can a Chinese woman do a youtube video explaining to other Chinese woman how to give themselves dreads? I honestly don't understand where the line is. What's the difference between enjoyment and appropriation? Is it not ok to profit from something you're good at if your culture didn't start it? Is then the general idea of a melting pot of culture offensive?

I don't mean for these questions to be offensive, I just genuinely don't get it.

[Pawz4me]

I'll be honest in that I don't really understand the concept of appropriation. Are people not allowed to like or be good at certain things simply because those things originated in a different culture? Where is that line? Can I, as a white person, enjoy sushi? Can I serve sushi to guests? Can I start up a sushi restaurant? Can  a Chinese woman wear dreads? Can a Chinese woman appear on TV or a magazien wearing dreads? Can a Chinese woman do a youtube video explaining to other Chinese woman how to give themselves dreads? I honestly don't understand where the line is. What's the difference between enjoyment and appropriation? Is it not ok to profit from something you're good at if your culture didn't start it? Is then the general idea of a melting pot of culture offensive?

 

I don't mean for these questions to be offensive, I just genuinely don't get it.

 

Thank you for asking, because I most definitely don't get it either.

[redsquirrel]

I thought what he said was amazing and it was so important it was said. I was cheering throughout. And I thought there was so much more going on there beyond appropriation.  His parents must be so proud of him. 

 

Appropriation isn't about a white person liking sushi. It's about not acknowledging where things come from.  It's about people getting to the top of the pile but not admitting they are standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

Here's an example: When I was a kid, there was an actress named Bo Derek who wore her hair in cornrows in a movie. Well, popular culture when crazy for those braids. However, no where was it mentioned that cornrows are a traditional hairstyle of African American women. The media acted like it was a new thing, a bold new fashion.  And black women are told that it looks unprofessional or 'too ethnic' for them to wear cornrows, but when a traditionally attractive white woman wears them they are chic and stylish. 

 

Or. it's about white kids talking 'black' because it sounds cool, but not actually having any black friends or talking to any black kid who go to their high school.  Does that make sense to you?  I am sure there are people who can explain it better, but that's what comes to mind before I've had coffee. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by redsquirrel

[Dad 4 Boys]

By the same token, is it cultural appropriation for black people to have their hair straightened and not wear the kinky hair that is normally associated as natural with their race?

[SproutMamaK]

So the offensiveness of appropriation then isn't in the action of doing something the originated in another culture (even if for profit), but in doing so without paying homage to the background behind it? I can understand that, to see something that has been a part of your culture for a long time being presented without credit, especially in cases where it gets cheapened in to a trend, chewed up, and spit out.

 

I think that may be part of the mindset of being in the privileged majority; you simply assume things are there for your use and consumption and that everything is available to be used as you see fit. If we see a white woman walking down the street and like her dress, and go buy something similar for ourselves, we don't tell everyone who compliments us, "Oh thank you! I actually saw this on a woman over on Elm St so it's really thanks to her that I wore this." It just doesn't occur to us; we're used to getting ideas from others and tweaking them to suit ourselves. And so of course it feels odd to have people saying, "Hey, that style of dress/music/hair/speaking was actually mine first and you need to give credit where it's due." It makes complete sense to acknowledge that history, but I think it's just not in our frame of reference to do so. I guess put that way it rather sounds like cultural colonialism.

[Farrar]

As is often the case, Everyday Feminism has a good primer on appropriation:

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/cultural-appropriation-wrong/

 

I think the most important thing is for us white people to be willing to listen and not dismiss accusations out of hand. And to be willing to have the hard conversation. When you see conversations about it in the media, there's a sense - and I'm no expert - that when it comes to rap and white people, that artists like Eminem or Macklemore who spend time crediting and honoring the African-American roots of the music they're performing get a pass most of the time while artists like Iggy Azalea who feel like they can do whatever they want and it's all good because music is music or whatever get a lot of criticism.

 

It's a hard issue. I think the lines are loose, but that the conversation and acknowledgement is the biggest, most key element in moving something from being appropriation to being cultural influences, though that's just my take.

[justasque]

By the same token, is it cultural appropriation for black people to have their hair straightened and not wear the kinky hair that is normally associated as natural with their race?

 

That would be more along the lines of assimilation - trying to fit in with the dominant culture.

 

When, say, Polish immigrants learn English and celebrate Thanksgiving and gain an appreciation for baseball and apple pie, it's understood to be part of blending in with the surrounding culture that is new to them.  

That's different than, say, a non-Polish clothing designer taking a Polish design from, say, a traditional funeral garment* and slapping it on a wedding dress - using someone else's cultural stuff in a context utterly out of sync with the original culture, and without attribution let alone compensation.

This stuff isn't easy.  

 

For the past several years, I've spent regular time in a culture-not-my-own, learning one of their art forms.  I spend a lot of time observing.  I don't expect others to educate me, and I am careful to express appreciation when they do.  I try to understand and respect cultural differences.  I enjoy the art form, but I will always be doing it as an outsider, so I am careful, for example, not to represent myself as an expert, no matter how much I have learned.  I am careful not to speak over people who have more experience and background and knowledge than me.  I've had to learn new ways to celebrate certain holidays, and I've had some failures when it comes to pot luck dishes that will or will not be popular.  I'm learning.  As people have gotten to know me, we've become friends.  I've been welcomed to community events.  But this will never be my community, or my culture.  

 

* I totally made up that example.  

[redsquirrel]

By the same token, is it cultural appropriation for black people to have their hair straightened and not wear the kinky hair that is normally associated as natural with their race?

 

If African American people weren't still being told in 2016 that to wear their hair in a natural style isn't appropriate for a professional workplace, then maybe there is a conversation to be had.

 

But even then, that conversation wouldn't go very far.  Not engaging in appropriation doesn't mean that we all stay in some designated lane of 'whites only' etc. It means acknowledging where things come from and giving credit where credit is due. It means taking the time to find out where things come from.  It means not trying on other people's culture and speech and skin colour for fun, while it is a fashion, but not acknowledging the importance of the culture as a whole. 

[SKL]

The way music works in modern society is that all musicians are "influenced" and "influence" others.  If someone is saying that is wrong, then to me that's just another example of demanding segregation in the name of "equality."

 

White people are not allowed to appreciate or feel a sense of belonging around black culture?  How exactly does that help bridge gaps?

[Bluegoat]

To a large extent I think ideas about cultural appropriation are related to our increasingly hardened ideas about intellectual property, the ownership of ideas.  I'm not a big fan of it in literature or science, so I am also not a big fan of it in music.  I don't think ideas really are things that can be owned.  And culture itself doesn't acknowledge bounds like race or ethnicity - it goes where it finds a reception.

 

There have, I think, always been fakers in the arts.  And sometimes they do better than the really original artists, who can be less appealing, or too ahead of the curve, or not in a position to have as wide an audience.  The circumstantial instances can be a little sad, but maybe are inevitable to some extent.  I tend to think that to a large extent, people see the fakers, over time, as really just being less substantial artists. 

 

A lot of very good artists though manage to take some kernel of an idea and translate it into something that is more appealing - the timing is a little better, or it is just a little different in a way that makes it more accessible, or in some cases they really improve upon or expand the original idea. 

 

The thing is, in reality I'd say all artists do that - none of them are really totally original.

 

I'm just not sure how important it is for artists to say - oh by the way, these were my influences - when we know there are influences, probably more than the artist realizes him or her self.

 

As far as taking things out of context - I think that can be a perfectly valid criticism in all art.  Sometimes it isn't, and people are just annoyed because someone is using something differently than they like.  But sometimes, the artist is using an image or sound or whatever in a shallow way - that is a limitation of the artist.

 

I think what often becomes more contentious is when something becomes commercialized for what seems to be profit, rather than any real artistic reason.  Which is a heck of a lot of pop music.

 

I disagree that people call out cultural appropriation only when the source isn't acknowledged, though perhaps people mean that is what it should be.  I can think of a few where it is explicit in the material, but people still seem to want to label it as appropriation.

 

 

[redsquirrel]

The way music works in modern society is that all musicians are "influenced" and "influence" others.  If someone is saying that is wrong, then to me that's just another example of demanding segregation in the name of "equality."

 

White people are not allowed to appreciate or feel a sense of belonging around black culture?  How exactly does that help bridge gaps?

 

Again, it's about acknowledgement and who gets credit.  I think the example of Iggy Azelea is a good one. She is an Australian white rapper who has made an enormous about of money mimicking an southern African American dialect and accent. She does it so well that apparently linguists have studied it.  Instead of developing her own voice, her own signature style, she mimics others and appropriates. And she is tall and blonde and much more acceptable to the money machine of pop culture. So, she gets rich as a statuesque skinny blonde sounding black while actual black women rappers don't get a quarter of the attention. But she can't trace her skill back over many artists. She just mimics what others have done. 

 

If you actually want to read about it, it's here. I didn't dip too deeply because I don't care that much about vowels, lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/04/how-a-white-australian-rapper-mastered-her-blaccent/

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/29/the-cultural-crimes-of-iggy-azalea.html

 

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/talking-about-iggy-azalea-white-people/

 

 

Now, she says it makes her an artist and a good student. I can see her point. But I also think she is treading on thin ice.

 

Another one, for me is Miley Cyrus. Some of her videos have been very questionable (for a variety of reasons). She surrounds herself with black women, at times spanking them on stage (!) and was really having a lot of fun with 'rachet' culture. But you know what? She's a rich white woman who can dabble in something dangerous, make some money off it and then toss it off when it no longer suits her. She isn't taking any artistic risk. She was rich before and she'll be rich after. She doesn't have any actual contact with where that culture comes from (nor do I and I won't even try to explain it) but she likes the parts that look like party, party, party.  She makes money of the parts that look good to her. When she is called on it, she professes ignorance

[SKL]

Again, it's about acknowledgement and who gets credit.  I think the example of Iggy Azelea is a good one. She is an Australian white rapper who has made an enormous about of money mimicking an southern African American dialect and accent. She does it so well that apparently linguists have studied it.  Instead of developing her own voice, her own signature style, she mimics others and appropriates. And she is tall and blonde and much more acceptable to the money machine of pop culture. So, she gets rich as a statuesque skinny blonde sounding black while actual black women rappers don't get a quarter of the attention. But she can't trace her skill back over many artists. She just mimics what others have done. 

 

If you actually want to read about it, it's here. I didn't dip too deeply because I don't care that much about vowels, lol

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/01/04/how-a-white-australian-rapper-mastered-her-blaccent/

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/12/29/the-cultural-crimes-of-iggy-azalea.html

 

http://www.dailydot.com/opinion/talking-about-iggy-azalea-white-people/

 

 

Now, she says it makes her an artist and a good student. I can see her point. But I also think she is treading on thin ice.

 

Another one, for me is Miley Cyrus. Some of her videos have been very questionable (for a variety of reasons). She surrounds herself with black women, at times spanking them on stage (!) and was really having a lot of fun with 'rachet' culture. But you know what? She's a rich white woman who can dabble in something dangerous, make some money off it and then toss it off when it no longer suits her. She isn't taking any artistic risk. She was rich before and she'll be rich after. She doesn't have any actual contact with where that culture comes from (nor do I and I won't even try to explain it) but she likes the parts that look like party, party, party.  She makes money of the parts that look good to her. When she is called on it, she professes ignorance

 

Well aren't black women rappers also mimicking what others have done?  Aren't white pop singers doing the same?

 

This idea that there is a color line musicians should not cross is not progressive IMO.

 

 

[justasque]

The way music works in modern society is that all musicians are "influenced" and "influence" others.  If someone is saying that is wrong, then to me that's just another example of demanding segregation in the name of "equality."

 

White people are not allowed to appreciate or feel a sense of belonging around black culture?  How exactly does that help bridge gaps?

SKL, I don't think anyone here is saying it's wrong to be influenced by artists from another culture.  It's more that when you are influenced by someone else's work, or a particular culture's body of work, that you should acknowledge the influence and give appropriate respect (which can come in many forms) to those who did the work before you.  This is particularly true when you are profiting from your work in a way that the originators are unable or unlikely to be able to do.

 

There is nuance here.  

Awareness of your privileges is foundational to understanding.

As a white, American, cis, het, well-educated, able-bodied person, you abound with privilege.

The concept of intersectionality puts these privileges into context, alongside your status as a single mother of (IIRC) brown kids.

 

To understand this stuff, you have to listen, listen, listen to the voices of those whose culture and experiences differ from your own. 

 

(Or, as Jesse Williams said, "If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. ")

Edited June 28, 2016 by justasque

[PeacefulChaos]

I find this topic very interesting and informative, so bear with me as I sort some things out here.

 

So admittedly, one big reason that I ask about cultural appropriation in music is because i want to be sure that personally, I'm not offensive. Perhaps that reasoning is selfish, but it is what it is. I joked about rapping earlier and no, I don't rap lol, but rap and hip hop are two of my favorite genres of music. As I was reading through the different tweets in backlash against JT, I couldn't help thinking to myself, 'Wait, so is it cultural appropriation that I, a white woman, enjoy music that spans across what could be categorized as 'racial' lines?'

I also think some about Kpop (because yes, that is my favorite). My current favorite song is entirely rap. I loved j-rap before Kpop was on my radar . And I occasionally see some minor instances of Kpop stars who rely heavily on hip hop beats and rap being accused of cultural appropriation. That then leads me to wonder - is that really what that would be? I've always seen Kpop artists who are writing and producing give mainstream American producers and artists as their inspirations, not pretend that their music doesn't have roots elsewhere.

And if we are splitting hairs, could it even be called cultural appropriation outside of the majority/minority context? Not trying to be argumentative AT ALL. Just trying to process it all and gain perspective.

[MercyA]

 For the past several years, I've spent regular time in a culture-not-my-own, learning one of their art forms.  

 

Okay, justasque, I'm dying of curiosity. Would you be willing to tell us what the art form is? 

[justasque]

This idea that there is a color line musicians should not cross is not progressive IMO.

 

You're trying to simplify a complex topic. No one here is saying musicians should not cross a color line.  It's about awareness of culture and of privilege.  Of when to speak out because you have a platform and when to pass the mike to someone who may otherwise not have one.  Of when to speak and when to listen.

 

Macklemore (white rapper) wrestled with this in his song White Privilege II.  This Rolling Stone interview is quite good.

 

It's not easy.  But it's worth the work.

 

[SKL]

Well, it isn't only privileged white people who think color lines aren't so great.

 

We used to have color lines all over the place, until people decided that was racist.

 

The cultural adoption of understood color lines by black groups is one reason why it's hard for black kids to break into areas where white kids do well.  Black kids make it hard for black kids to do that.  I think the last thing we need is to rationalize color lines as a good thing.

 

I also fail to see how the idea works in both directions.  IMO if it doesn't work both ways, then the logic fails.

[redsquirrel]

Well aren't black women rappers also mimicking what others have done?  Aren't white pop singers doing the same?

 

This idea that there is a color line musicians should not cross is not progressive IMO.

 

 

 

Are they mimicking accents, trying to hide where they come from? In our history, there have been african american people who were able to 'pass' and it's sort of a big deal.  I think you are using mimicking in a different way than how some are being criticized. 

 

And this is NOT about a colour line that isn't crossed. It's more like.... being a fair weather friend. You spend time with that friend as long as things are fun and doesn't ask too much from you, but when that friend isn't treated well you have better things to do. It's a one way street with them doing all the giving. So, a singer mimics black speech patterns and uses black dancers in her videos to give her some 'authenticity' with the market, but then when only white artists get nominated for awards, well, that's not her problem.

 

You can't only take the good, reap the rewards, and then stand down when things get difficult.  If that is what you are doing, then you need to check yourself.

 

You can't say that a particular black artist or the black community as a whole, is an inspiration to you, make money off that inspiration, but then turn your back when that artist or that community needs support. And you don't brush off difficult questions. You stay and have the hard conversations. 

[Tita Gidge]

To piggyback on justasque and redsquirrel, appropriation is really more about intent and mindset, and less so about a specific action.

 

I associate appropriation with the reducing a culture to x; to objectify the culture. 

 

So the White woman who grew up in a predominantly Black area and has adopted the dress and speech mannerisms of her community (her literal actual community, not her ethnic community) is not necessarily appropriating aspects of Black culture. The White woman who dates a Black guy because she has some kind of fetish or thinks Shemar Moore is "hot" ... who then begins to dress and speak the part as if she's putting on a costume? She's appropriating. It's not who she is, it's an image she wishes to project.

 

And this is true even if it's non-racial, e.g. it can be the biker community, the surfer community, the rodeo community. And it's true even if she hasn't consciously decided to do so and means no harm by doing so. It's my belief that most people accused of appropriation are actually unaware that they're doing it and so they mean no harm (and perhaps even flattery) in what they do. It's true that appropriation can be chalked up to a bona fide lack of awareness (which comes on the heels of privilege, in some cases, or due to simple cluelessness and naivete in others). It can also be taken to either extreme:

 

denial that it exists, and

 

refusal to acknowledge that its existence is institutional.

 

There's room for each extreme to slide towards the middle. Appropriation does exist, and will - even lacking any ill intent. Likewise, it's existence is permeated in mainstream society and education is the key - not accusations without action.

 

 

[Alte Veste Academy]

The NYTimes has a video of the speech in full, as well as the AMAZING performance by Beyonce and Kendrick Lamar. 

[Alte Veste Academy]

...being a fair weather friend.

 

...you don't brush off difficult questions. You stay and have the hard conversations. 

 

This is exactly the point of the appropriation part of the speech, I think. And why JT's tweets are an issue. They were just so obtuse.

[Alte Veste Academy]

OK, things like this are EXACTLY why I feel that current events is becoming the most important subject I teach here. That speech was amazing, and the responses to it are interesting to pick apart to look for roots of thought. 

 

Also, I thought he said strained fruit, like keeping the juice and throwing away the pulp, so I felt like an idiot. But then, oh the education of discovering Billie Holiday's song Strange Fruit, which is also linked in the NYTimes article. Listen to it. Everyone listen to it! So many cultural references in that speech, and appropriation was just a part of it. 

 

The "sit down" was appropriate, I think. 

[justasque]

Well, it isn't only privileged white people who think color lines aren't so great.

 

We used to have color lines all over the place, until people decided that was racist.

 

The cultural adoption of understood color lines by black groups is one reason why it's hard for black kids to break into areas where white kids do well.  Black kids make it hard for black kids to do that.  I think the last thing we need is to rationalize color lines as a good thing.

 

I also fail to see how the idea works in both directions.  IMO if it doesn't work both ways, then the logic fails.

 

There are still color lines in this country.  That a politician can run for office on the slogan "Make America White Again" makes that more than clear.  (In a county that is 97% white, no less.)  

 

To be able to act like color lines don't exist is a function of your privilege.  Not everyone has that luxury.  You have to be aware of that if you want to create change.    

[bibiche]

I also fail to see how the idea works in both directions. IMO if it doesn't work both ways, then the logic fails.

If all things were equal, sure it could work both ways. But all things are definitely NOT equal. A powerful majority does not get to appropriate from an oppressed minority.

[redsquirrel]

I teared up little when he said strange fruit. Such a powerful call back.

[Laurie]

I wonder what Jesse Williams means  when he talks about the invention of whiteness?  

 

Is he a member of the Nation of Islam?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_(Nation_of_Islam)

[GinaPagnato]

Okay, so I've read through this thread and I appreciate the responses. Very interesting topic and not something I've ever thought about.

 

Am I summarizing it correctly to say that if a white artist who has appropriated musical styles/speech/dress, etc. from black artists acknowledges the fact that he/she has done so, it's all good?

 

What does that look like? Shout-outs? Public speeches? Talking about it when in concert? How often? When is it no longer necessary to bring it up over and over again?

 

Serious questions, not snark.

[Carrie12345]

I finally got to see the video!

 

" The burden of the brutalized is not to comfort the bystander. That’s not our job. All right, stop with all that. If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression. If you have no interest in equal rights for black people, then do not make suggestions to those who do. Sit down."

If only people could wrap their heads around that.

As a side note, I don't know how I feel about the word appropriation in certain contexts.  But how I feel about it isn't actually relevant, so I'll continue to work my thoughts out without detracting from real people's real problems.

 

 

[Farrar]

This is exactly the point of the appropriation part of the speech, I think. And why JT's tweets are an issue. They were just so obtuse.

 

There's a great irony in JT's praising the speech then not knowing how to deal with the accusation of appropriation. Like, he was obviously *well-intentioned* but the conversation about race in America, the one that Williams's speech reflected so incredibly well, is moving beyond such notions to effect and meaning.

[Laurie]

If all things were equal, sure it could work both ways. But all things are definitely NOT equal. A powerful majority does not get to appropriate from an oppressed minority.

 

Instead of calling it cultural appropriation, why not just call it what it seems to be:  racial retribution.  

[justasque]

I wonder what Jesse Williams means  when he talks about the invention of whiteness?  

 

Is he a member of the Nation of Islam?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakub_(Nation_of_Islam)

 

I wouldn't assume so.  He mentions again in this Essence interview "this thing call whiteness, which is a myth in itself."  Especially in our country, with its history of the generations-long white enslavement of black women in particular (and thus the rape, and subsequent themselves-enslaved children, that are inevitable when men are allowed to own women), the idea of a binary, "one drop" black/white distinction is clearly a man-made construct. 

 

[justasque]

Instead of calling it cultural appropriation, why not just call it what it seems to be:  racial retribution.  

 

Laurie, I'm not sure I understand what you wrote, but I'd like to.  Could you expand on it a bit?  

[bibiche]

Laurie, I'm not sure I understand what you wrote, but I'd like to. Could you expand on it a bit?

Yes, I'd very much like to hear more on this as well.

[redsquirrel]

Instead of calling it cultural appropriation, why not just call it what it seems to be:  racial retribution.  

 

I'm not really sure what this means. The term cultural appropriation, to me, clearly defines the problem. I don't see the need for another term.

 

Can you explain what you mean by "racial retribution"? I'm not really following.

[bibiche]

Just saw this and thought it would fit in this discussion: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/on-views-of-race-and-inequality-blacks-and-whites-are-worlds-apart/

[ebunny]

I think cultural appropriation is deeply intertwined with fundamental power inequalities among different races. Or the power relations between the majority and minority (assuming that majority= most powerful)

 

I've had the understanding (and I might be wrong) that appropriation is when a race (insert any other variable) that is dominant/ in power lays a claim to a cultural aspect of the dominated/less powerful for personal profit.

 

So, afaik, and given the current race discourse; (ethnic or racial) majority can 'appropriate' a cultural aspect of the (ethnic or racial) minority ; but when the minority takes on the cultural aspect of the majority, it is assimilation. 

 

 

[PeacefulChaos]

Just saw this and thought it would fit in this discussion: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2016/06/27/on-views-of-race-and-inequality-blacks-and-whites-are-worlds-apart/

 

This is interesting.  I will honestly say I can only be glad that I wasn't questioned about those things, because I honestly don't know.  Why would I unless I made it a point to?

 

One question that I found most surprising was being treated differently at the polls.  Why would that even be an issue?  How would I know if blacks are treated differently at the polls?  These are things that I just don't understand because I'm not in said minority.  Because of my white privilege, I don't know about these things unless I take the time to find out about them.

Truthfully though, I had no idea there would be any difference of treatment at the polls anymore.  How can you be treated differently?  All I do when I vote is show ID, get a number, get a sticker, go to the voting machine.... I assumed everyone would be treated the same.  Why would polls, of all places, be a place where discrimination was even possible?!

(I know, my privilege is showing, and I'm not trying in any way to be rude... it honestly flabbergasted me.  And I thought I was well versed on this subject... apparently not.)

[Farrar]

This is interesting.  I will honestly say I can only be glad that I wasn't questioned about those things, because I honestly don't know.  Why would I unless I made it a point to?

 

One question that I found most surprising was being treated differently at the polls.  Why would that even be an issue?  How would I know if blacks are treated differently at the polls?  These are things that I just don't understand because I'm not in said minority.  Because of my white privilege, I don't know about these things unless I take the time to find out about them.

Truthfully though, I had no idea there would be any difference of treatment at the polls anymore.  How can you be treated differently?  All I do when I vote is show ID, get a number, get a sticker, go to the voting machine.... I assumed everyone would be treated the same.  Why would polls, of all places, be a place where discrimination was even possible?!

(I know, my privilege is showing, and I'm not trying in any way to be rude... it honestly flabbergasted me.  And I thought I was well versed on this subject... apparently not.)

 

The poll issues are - as I understand it - mostly things that happen before people even get to the polls. In places where a political party stands to benefit from suppressing voters, they (and both can be guilty of it, but demographically this is mostly an issue of Republicans suppressing African-American votes because Blacks don't vote for the GOP) may set up polling places in less convenient locations, set up fewer, make the hours less, etc. There are a lot of documented cases of this. The party who is trying to suppress the votes claims that they're trying to save money by catering to whoever voted before - in other words, to set up polling places in places where there is typically the highest voter turnout already, and that it has nothing to do with race.

 

ETA: PFAW has details about voter suppression issues pretty well laid out with documented examples here:

http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/new-face-jim-crow-voter-suppression-america

To be clear, PFAW is a liberal leaning thinktank. I think the discussion of polling places might start getting us into partisan politics too much for the board, but I'll put it there for now, I guess. I don't think there's an inherent racist intent in Republican attempts to suppress the vote and add ID laws and so forth (though there's a clear racist effect). I think the Democrats would play just as dirty if it benefited them - it just doesn't benefit them.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Farrar

[PeacefulChaos]

The poll issues are - as I understand it - mostly things that happen before people even get to the polls. In places where a political party stands to benefit from suppressing voters, they (and both can be guilty of it, but demographically this is mostly an issue of Republicans suppressing African-American votes because Blacks don't vote for the GOP) may set up polling places in less convenient locations, set up fewer, make the hours less, etc. There are a lot of documented cases of this. The party who is trying to suppress the votes claims that they're trying to save money by catering to whoever voted before - in other words, to set up polling places in places where there is typically the highest voter turnout already, and that it has nothing to do with race.

 

ETA: PFAW has details about voter suppression issues pretty well laid out with documented examples here:

http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/new-face-jim-crow-voter-suppression-america

To be clear, PFAW is a liberal leaning thinktank. I think the discussion of polling places might start getting us into partisan politics too much for the board, but I'll put it there for now, I guess. I don't think there's an inherent racist intent in Republican attempts to suppress the vote and add ID laws and so forth (though there's a clear racist effect). I think the Democrats would play just as dirty if it benefited them - it just doesn't benefit them.

 

Ah yes, I have heard of that.  I didn't know it could be put into practice - do polls not have to have the same hours across the country?  

(Naivete is showing!   :lol:  But yeah I totally thought that all polls across the country were open from like 7-8am til 7pm.  That's what ours are... and my assumption was always that they had to be centrally located to the ward of the people who are voting.  And that both of those things were laws, just like putting up in plain speech what is being voted on.  But again, naivete....)

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Edited June 29, 2016 by PeacefulChaos

[Joker]

Is Justin Timberlake really appropriating someone else's culture? I see some of the other examples mentioned but not him.

 

I liked the speech but I don't get the Timberlake issue at all. Yes, he could have responded better to the poster but I don't think he deserved the initial response at all.

 

FTR, I'm not a fan of his and own none of his music. I'm familiar enough with it though that this whole thing has me shaking my head.

[SporkUK]

Well, it isn't only privileged white people who think color lines aren't so great.

 

We used to have color lines all over the place, until people decided that was racist.

 

The cultural adoption of understood color lines by black groups is one reason why it's hard for black kids to break into areas where white kids do well.  Black kids make it hard for black kids to do that.  I think the last thing we need is to rationalize color lines as a good thing.

 

I also fail to see how the idea works in both directions.  IMO if it doesn't work both ways, then the logic fails.

 

Except it can't work both ways because systemic racism within society doesn't work both ways. Blaming Black kids for systemic racism when the structures of society are built and continue to be maintained to give White kids the advantage...I do not understand that. 

 

Music history, fashion history, and so on have for ages and continue to repackage others' cultural products in a White package. As said earlier in the thread, Elvis was specifically hired and promoted because he was a White guy who could imitate Black music and dance moves. Sam Phillips of Sun Records said, "If I can only find a white man, with a black sound, I could make a million dollars." This still happens - a lot. You can literally go through trends that were first mocked and watch them be copied and praised with a White face. Sometimes at the same time depending on who is doing/wearing it. We have musician Zendaya having people trash her locs while praising White singers for their fake-locs [of course their type 1 hair cannot actually loc like Zendaya's type 4 hair, its biologically impossible, but this has never stopped them being kinda copied]. Timberlake has repeated used and thrown black artists under the bus for his career. This twitter issue is just the latest in him ignoring people and people were venting their frustration that he, among many others, will continue to be protected while he does this because of Whiteness. 

 

We still have schools and work places that ban natural type 4 hair styles, most common about Black people, while the industries praise White imitations. It doesn't go both way in any way. Little Black girls can't wear their natural hair or puffs [equivalent to pony tails] because they're "disruptive", it doesn't go both ways. American Indigenous children cannot wear their traditional clothes to school, get fined and have their diplomas withheld over wearing an earned feather, still having their hair cut in schools for not fitting White standards, and the industries treat them as costumes, it doesn't go both ways. Whiteness, invented by elites with conditional membership to excuse mass colonialism and chattel slavery and prevent poor White people from uprising with the enslaved [which had been a huge issue which giving a little higher ranking and forcing them to control others seemed to mostly fix] and so many other things, may only be a few hundred years old, but our systems continue to maintain and build it. Acknowledging and taking the systems to task and then apart is what Jesse Williams's speech was about and the first step to dealing with a society specifically designed so it cannot go both ways. This is not an exchange of ideas, this is structurally approved theft with the imitation being praised and the original being punished. 

 

This reminds me of the Hamilton musical race controversy a few months ago, where people were calling it racist because the only guaranteed White part is King George. People were going on and on about 'if this happened the other way, people would think it was racist'. Except it is already happening. There are very few musicals that don't specifically call for White parts. Colourblind 'give it to the best person' casting *does not exist* - not in musicals, not in Hollywood, not in the music industry, not anywhere on a systemic level. Read any casting page and you see White and, ick, even 'Caucasian' in big letters next to most names. Even when study after study gives strong evidence that diversity in media makes it more popular, that diversity is more of a draw than big White names, this is still what we get, this is something people are still having to fight to get a place in, fighting to be able to make, because it's hard to fight against the systems in society that are maintained to work one way to keep the power balance as it is and blame those on the losing side of that power balance for things being as they are. 

[Farrar]

Ah yes, I have heard of that.  I didn't know it could be put into practice - do polls not have to have the same hours across the country?  

(Naivete is showing!   :lol:  But yeah I totally thought that all polls across the country were open from like 7-8am til 7pm.  That's what ours are... and my assumption was always that they had to be centrally located to the ward of the people who are voting.  And that both of those things were laws, just like putting up in plain speech what is being voted on.  But again, naivete....)

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Polling hours are up to either the state or the local jurisdiction, depending. Even if they keep the hours the same for all, some people feel that benefits the already privileged. If you're middle class white, you're more likely to have enough flexibility to go vote before or after work - miss a few minutes of work, or not have to worry about getting your kids, or even just have a car to get to the polls. The system is stacked in favor of the privileged from the Constitution on down. I mean, a working Tuesday? That's not good for get out the vote efforts. It's good for voter suppression.

[Bluegoat]

To piggyback on justasque and redsquirrel, appropriation is really more about intent and mindset, and less so about a specific action.

 

I associate appropriation with the reducing a culture to x; to objectify the culture. 

 

So the White woman who grew up in a predominantly Black area and has adopted the dress and speech mannerisms of her community (her literal actual community, not her ethnic community) is not necessarily appropriating aspects of Black culture. The White woman who dates a Black guy because she has some kind of fetish or thinks Shemar Moore is "hot" ... who then begins to dress and speak the part as if she's putting on a costume? She's appropriating. It's not who she is, it's an image she wishes to project.

 

And this is true even if it's non-racial, e.g. it can be the biker community, the surfer community, the rodeo community. And it's true even if she hasn't consciously decided to do so and means no harm by doing so. It's my belief that most people accused of appropriation are actually unaware that they're doing it and so they mean no harm (and perhaps even flattery) in what they do. It's true that appropriation can be chalked up to a bona fide lack of awareness (which comes on the heels of privilege, in some cases, or due to simple cluelessness and naivete in others). It can also be taken to either extreme:

 

denial that it exists, and

 

refusal to acknowledge that its existence is institutional.

 

There's room for each extreme to slide towards the middle. Appropriation does exist, and will - even lacking any ill intent. Likewise, it's existence is permeated in mainstream society and education is the key - not accusations without action.

 

I find it hard to tie the idea of taking on teh speech of a group like bikers and surfers to what we're talking about.  I mean, no one is born a surfer, a few might be in families that are into surfing, but most probably aren't.  But often then end up a surfer not only because they like to surf, but because they enjoy that culture.  Or you could substitute bikers or whatever.  A good portion of the teen period is all about deciding on what sort of image to project, and all adults do that to to some extent.

[Laurie]

 l. A powerful majority does not get to appropriate from an oppressed minority.

 

(I kept trying to respond last night, but for some reason whenever I hit "add reply" this website automatically signs me out instead.)

 

If I'm understanding correctly, only white people in the US are capable of committing the sin of cultural appropriation (CA).   If that's the case, then perhaps this term was invented to punish/shame white people and basically call them thieves.  

 

I read the link that Farrar provided with specific examples of CA, but I reject this attempt to set limits on what white people are allowed to do.  And I don't accept that because of my race I am obliged to pay homage to anyone for what I might choose to sing, wear, eat, etc. or how I might make a living.  

 

People should try to be polite and treat others with respect...within reason.  And many of the CA examples aren't reasonable.

[bibiche]

(I kept trying to respond last night, but for some reason whenever I hit "add reply" this website automatically signs me out instead.)

 

If I'm understanding correctly, only white people in the US are capable of committing the sin of cultural appropriation (CA). If that's the case, then perhaps this term was invented to punish/shame white people and basically call them thieves.

 

I read the link that Farrar provided with specific examples of CA, but I reject this attempt to set limits on what white people are allowed to do. And I don't accept that because of my race I am obliged to pay homage to anyone for what I might choose to sing, wear, eat, etc. or how I might make a living.

 

People should try to be polite and treat others with respect...within reason. And many of the CA examples aren't reasonable.

It would appear from the above linked study (post #40) that a number of white Americans, particularly, according to the survey, those who identify as Republicans, agree with you.

 

Do you accept that there is institutionalised racism in the US? That there is racism at all?

 

ETA I should clarify that I mean do you accept that there is majority/minority racism. It is fairly clear that you believe there is the reverse.

Edited June 29, 2016 by bibiche