Indulging my petty side: Jinger Duggar has a boyfriend.

[eternalsummer]

I don't believe that is anywhere in the book - it's been quite awhile since I read it. She advocates swats as needed for the preschool crowd, sometimes toddlers, but the basic principles work great even with zero physical discipline. A lot of the parents I've discussed it with have foster kids and cannot spank - the value is primarily in the basic philosophy of heading off problems before they need correcting and dealing with the attitudes instead of just due symptoms in the child's actions.

 

We don't blanket train or anything like that and I can't speak to it, but outside of spanking I don't recall anything eyebrow raising in the text. I could have blocked it out or forgotten in intervening years though.

 

I was just reading from MegP's link here:

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php

 

I have never read a parenting book :)  

 

To be perfectly honest, I read that whole link (the Ch 14 link above) and every single thing she said just sounds disgusting to me.  Only some of it is, imo, obvious abuse.

 

But a lot more of it is just complete BS.  Consider the bit on how if your children are trained to feel grateful and express thanks constantly (gag, I hate that kind of fakeness in adults, much less kids) they just won't be depressed.

 

Because depression is a failure to realize how lucky you really are, living with constant physical and mental control and pain.

Bah.

 

 

Gratefulness

Gratitude makes it easy to rejoice. Cultivating a spirit of gratefulness also makes it difficult to sink into depression. Discover reasons to be thankful in every situation. Train yourself to do this and teach your children likewise. Require them to express their thanks whenever possible."

[eternalsummer]

You know Meg, I really see what you're getting at here and I can see the harshness, but I also know if I reframed this in a more PC way, it wouldn't be taken the same way.

 

 

 

 

 

Taken the same way, sorry.  

 

When you minimize hitting a child what looks like 5-6 times in several minutes with a paddle, not even to protect them from future harm or teach some sort of really valuable lesson, but to keep them from poking their forehead with a pencil eraser (!!!!), then if the child has nervous laughter or dares to be upset about being hit, spanking them severely (what else can she mean here?), then presumably going back to the same strategy again because after all, some kids just cannot regulate as well as other kids and rocking in a chair is pretty normal - 

 

 

That is abuse.  are you saying that's not abuse?  Would you do that?

 

If you wouldn't do it, why is it okay for this person to tell other people to do it?

[MercyA]

It does, but it can do other things equally harmful, that set a person up to be easily taken advantage of. Here are lies I once believed:

That my opinion did not matter

That my emotions were irrelevant

That people who claim to love me are allowed to hurt me

That it isn't lady-like to reject someone

That I must smile, be sweet and have a cheerful countenance

Depression is caused by a demon

Anger is a sin

 

Quill, I want to give you hugs, but I also have to say that this makes me so incredibly angry. I don't envy those who bring dishonor to the name of Christ and Christianity in this way.

[eternalsummer]

And for one, I think the connection between spousal control and control of children is pretty normal and makes sense within this paradigm.

 

If you must control your child's fidgeting (constantly) and their developmentally appropriate expressions of disappointment and the exact words they use to interact with you and etc. etc., then it makes sense that your husband should control the minutia of your behavior as well (although I doubt he follows you around with a paddle as a visual reminder to walk softly and speak quietly and wear 2 inch heels and not put your coffee cup down on the wrong side of the counter).

 

 

The idea that we find one scenario (the husband and wife) unacceptable but the other (mother and child) marginally acceptable just says to me that women have vastly more power in this current society than children (who, after all, we do drug at incredible rates to control their behavior - but then, we also drug ourselves, so that might be a wash.)

 

 

Ugh, the whole thing just makes me apoplectic.  I must abandon this thread.

[BlsdMama]

Taken the same way, sorry.  

 

When you minimize hitting a child what looks like 5-6 times in several minutes with a paddle, not even to protect them from future harm or teach some sort of really valuable lesson, but to keep them from poking their forehead with a pencil eraser (!!!!), then if the child has nervous laughter or dares to be upset about being hit, spanking them severely (what else can she mean here?), then presumably going back to the same strategy again because after all, some kids just cannot regulate as well as other kids and rocking in a chair is pretty normal - 

 

 

That is abuse.  are you saying that's not abuse?  Would you do that?

 

If you wouldn't do it, why is it okay for this person to tell other people to do it?

 

 

If you're asking if I would allow my child to stab themselves with a pencil, I absolutely would not.  If they continued I would punish them.  If it was a swat (but WHY would it take a swat in a 7-8yo???) 

 

 

Do I think she's right on all counts?  No. Haven't yet met the perfect author - er, except Christ.

 

ETA: I didn't read the link - I really have to go but I'm the most side tracked person.  But I have to say, precious few Christians understand depression.  I know I didn't.  I got NAILED with PPD almost two years ago and I did NOT understand why I felt this way.  I woke up TRULY grateful every single day........ So I didn't understand why I didn't just "get over it."  I still don't understand depression.  But my compassion and empathy for those in the fight of their lives has grown leaps and bounds. :(

No, I don't think PEOPLE, not just Christians, but fallible, human PEOPLE get depression.  Nor do I think they get ADHD.  But as a mom with a kid with really serious LDs, I think a lot of people talk about crap they don't get a lot.  Opinions... everyone has one sadly and they are too happy to share, kwim?

 

Do I think she has some valuable things?  I do.  I think it's the same thing in any book - you take what you can use, toss the rest.  But like I said, I haven't read the book in 15 years. I can only speak to the tone of the old forums and we had too many mamas on there that were foster mamas.  Spanking was absolutely NOT an option.  It was really about keep 'em close, model good behavior, and look at attitude over action.

 

And do I think she was an expert on ADHD? Nope.  I have three - two ADHD and one ADD.  With education and recognition comes grace.  If you don't have that experience under your belt, I just think you fail to recognize it.  But I KNOW if you're looking at attitude over action, you WILL see it.  It was that very teaching that helped me to realize what a wonderful child Ella is.  She drives some people crazy.  My mom has zero patience for her at all - crabs and snipes sometimes because  she moves fast, she's impulsive.  She just is a ball of energy.  If you look at a tipped over chair or a climbing little girl, I can see where the frustration comes from.  But if you look at HER and look at her attitude, that kid is the sweetest human you'll ever meet.  Yeah, ADHD, but just the most eager kid. She wakes up, often before 5 AM.  The other day she made me coffee.  Holy cow. What a mess.  I had grounds everywhere.  How can you be mad about that?  I guess if you look at the ACTION it would be easy.  But you know what? She's so darn happy to get another day that she is just up and ready to go.  And she made me coffee. (Really awful coffee, but made me coffee!)  I can't not be grateful for someone teaching me to look at Ella and be so thankful for her.  I remember volunteering at Awanas about 14 years ago and I had a spitfire redhead in the Cubbies class.  That kid drove me nuts.  Happy but, in my mind, awful.  Do I know how ashamed I am of my attitude towards her?  If anyone out there has a pretty red-head, about 17, named Allison, I always treated her well, but I'm really sorry I never understood what a treasure that crazy little ADHD girl was. :(

 

 

I'm not going to get into a bicker fest.  I actually could care less two hoots if anyone ever reads the book.  The old forum isn't in existence anymore.  My point was simply that I spent too much time there to stick RGT with the others because her tone on the forums was the furthest thing from legalism I've ever seen.  Not only that, but I know she doesn't endorse courtship so I just wanted to clear up fallacies.

 

ETA: And then, in the back of my head, I just wonder if my life experience colors how I read these things, just like, I'm sure it colors everyone else?  I was a child who did get a couple swats on the butt, but it wasn't a "go to" resolution solver.  I had a lot of freedom as a kid, especially spending a ton of time outside exploring and non-structured.  My dad spent every moment he wasn't at work with us and loved it. My caretaker until I was in school was a SAINT of an old woman who baked bread with me, did laundry with me, cooked with me, sang with me.  My school was a tiny Catholic school with a teacher who read to us, sang, and played the piano every morning.  After that I moved to a public school that had about a dozen or so students - a tiny rural school that isn't in existence anymore.   Sometimes I think my experiences were a long way from normal and so maybe I don't read into things that other people pick up on, or maybe that don't exist either except their experience color them?  A swat on the bottom as a little kid did not phase me - but maybe because the foundation laid of love, time spent, true appreciation and joy of spending time with me was really the main framework?  Too much philosophizing for me this morning I think.  This calls for another cup of coffee.

Edited June 22, 2016 by BlsdMama

[eternalsummer]

And I agree that people like this (the Duggars, the people they follow, this RGT lady) discredit Christianity.

 

I am not religious.  It is, for me, a dead hypothesis.

 

I am very socially conservative.  I see the immense value in religion as a vehicle for morality and community stability.

 

I used to have a sort of automatic good feeling towards Christians, especially conservative ones, especially conservative ones with large families (as I see a moral and social value in having kids).  We had a set of Mormon missionaries (girls) come visit us weekly for a few months 5 or so years ago and they made a huge difference in my life and my perception of religious folk in general.

 

Now I do not have that automatic good feeling.  Especially after this thread, my gut reaction towards conservative large-family Christians is not, "hey, they must be taking a different path towards the same values I have."  It is something more like, "I wonder if they misuse random quotes from the bible to justify abusing their children."

 

It is actually very good to be reminded that while religion *is* a good vehicle for morality, and has been for millennia, it has its own pitfalls.  People are not automatically likely to be better people because they are religious, even if they agree with me about abortion and etc etc.

[PeterPan]

nt

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tanaqui]

If you're asking if I would allow my child to stab themselves with a pencil, I absolutely would not.  If they continued I would punish them.  If it was a swat (but WHY would it take a swat in a 7-8yo???)

 

Exactly how sharp are the eraser ends of your pencils!?

 

[maize]

Yeah, IME kids with ADHD do not respond well to or benefit much from discipline oriented parenting. How could they? Executive function drives our ability to regulate behavior with an understanding of cause and effect. A kid with executive function deficits is not able to self-regulate in anticipation of a given (punishment) effect.

[zoobie]

Exactly how sharp are the eraser ends of your pencils!?

Even if the kid had been using the point of the pencil... "No no Junior, you can't *self* harm. Let me do it for you!"

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, IME kids with ADHD do not respond well to or benefit much from discipline oriented parenting. How could they? Executive function drives our ability to regulate behavior with an understanding of cause and effect. A kid with executive function deficits is not able to self-regulate in anticipation of a given (punishment) effect.

 

For that matter, with or without any sort of diagnosis, poking yourself with a pencil (sharp end or otherwise) is not something you do for no reason at all. Is the kid bored? Are they seeking some sort of sensory stimulation? Are they attempting to get your goat in an effort to delay schoolwork? If their pencil poking bothers you so much, it'll do more good to tackle the problem at the root.

[eternalsummer]

I think the whole idea behind both philosophies seems to be (from what little I have read) that the root of all of these problems, all of them, is a lack of willing submission.

 

They talk about getting to the heart of the child, but the way they do it is by insisting that if you can force, through physical abuse, the child to act a certain way, that will change the way the child feels, and thus solve the root of the problem, which is that the child did not feel like doing what you said to do.

[eternalsummer]

The Outside Reflects the Inside
One cherished, but highly erroneous belief is that a parent should not correct a child for displaying a wrong emotion, because the child will "suppress" the emotion rather than change it. Experience convinces me otherwise. Require young children to display the right emotions outwardly and their hearts will change, producing the right attitudes and emotions inwardly as well.

Of course you can't simply order your children to "be happy". If the child is small, it works much better to tell him to "smile" or "straighten up your face." If the child is very young, I'll cheerfully say, "Let's see a smile now", or "Where is your smile?"

The child may initially resist, but when he finally obeys, the resulting smile will often break into a radiant grin, accompanied by sincere laughter and other expressions of genuine joy. It is hard for a small child to hide his true feelings. It is equally difficult for him to display an emotion that he does not really feel. Get him to smile on the outside and invariably he will smile on the inside.

 

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch09.php

 

 

 

Allowing an ungodly spirit to take root is your guarantee of far more serious and difficult offenses to follow. Wrong emotions lead to wrong attitudes, and finally to wrong actions.

[eternalsummer]

Maybe it's a kind of reaction to the rapid "progressiveness" and social instability we've seen in the west in the last few decades.  People feel like things are really out of control (and they are - divorce rates, medicating very young children in ways that would have read as sci-fi not too long ago, enormous debt, international instability, the decline of faith in institutions like school, religion, government, etc.) so some of them react by wanting extreme control.

 

There are similar things happening on the left of course, it is not just religious people - it just manifests differently. 

 

But this particular manifestation - cult-like control of children and then, in the case of the Duggars, using them to make money! - ugh, it seems like the end times are near.

[gardenmom5]

I was just reading from MegP's link here:

http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php

 

I have never read a parenting book :)

 

To be perfectly honest, I read that whole link (the Ch 14 link above) and every single thing she said just sounds disgusting to me.  Only some of it is, imo, obvious abuse.

 

But a lot more of it is just complete BS.  Consider the bit on how if your children are trained to feel grateful and express thanks constantly (gag, I hate that kind of fakeness in adults, much less kids) they just won't be depressed.

 

Because depression is a failure to realize how lucky you really are, living with constant physical and mental control and pain.

Bah.

 

 

Gratefulness

Gratitude makes it easy to rejoice. Cultivating a spirit of gratefulness also makes it difficult to sink into depression. Discover reasons to be thankful in every situation. Train yourself to do this and teach your children likewise. Require them to express their thanks whenever possible."

 

gag. me. with. a. spork.  . . . . gah.  uuk.

 

Quill, I want to give you hugs, but I also have to say that this makes me so incredibly angry. I don't envy those who bring dishonor to the name of Christ and Christianity in this way.

 

This. and they harm many by dishonoring Christ in this way.

[eternalsummer]

My point was simply that I spent too much time there to stick RGT with the others because her tone on the forums was the furthest thing from legalism I've ever seen.  Not only that, but I know she doesn't endorse courtship so I just wanted to clear up fallacies.

 

 

 

I dunno, I didn't read the forums so I guess I'll take your word for it?

 

I also don't exactly know what legalism means - I gather it's a word some Christians use to say that the intentions of the heart are more important than specific actions or specific instructions?  does it have something to do with the switch from the way Jews see religious requirements (which are generally specific actions or avoidance of actions) to the ways some Christians see religious requirements (which have more to do with a feeling/expression of faith)?  My religious education is pretty close to zero, so I am sorry if I've missed the boat somehow.

 

However, if the above is what legalism means (prioritizing actions over feelings), then I think her website, at least, is quite legalistic, right?  And not materially different from the Duggar philosophy - both seem to center on behavior (especially outward, interactive, front-facing behavior, like instant obedience and smiling).  She does want people to change the way their kids feel - but so do the Duggars!  They want children (and maybe wives?), as far as I can tell, to obey immediately and with a smile because the children feel like doing that.  They want to change the heart - but the *reason* they want to change it is so that the behaviors will change, and the way they both advocate changing it is by beating children, to be blunt.

Edited June 22, 2016 by ananemone

[Mergath]

Even if the kid had been using the point of the pencil... "No no Junior, you can't *self* harm. Let me do it for you!"

 

:iagree:  I can't wrap my mind around this. At all. You don't want your kid to hurt himself, so hurt him to make him stop? Wtf? How could anyone think that's a sensible idea?

[eternalsummer]

The author, at least (Blsdmama may think differently from the RGT author) does not care about the kid's hurting himself.  She cares about his obedience.    In this case, there was no mention of particular harm to the child (edit: from the original behaviors), just that the child kept fidgeting and wouldn't obey when the mother told him to stop.

 

It's very stepford-wife-ish, only with kids. 

 

The reasons behind these behaviors, even ones that really do probably merit some real correction/investigation (I don't personally think fidgeting rises to that level, but ymmv), seem to be almost completely irrelevant to people with this philosophy.  They are just happy there is a miracle cure for disobedience, and it is punishment - as long as you do a lot of it, and do it consistently, your kid will stop being annoying.  You can even punish them into accepting punishment without displaying unhappiness!  So you don't even have to feel bad that you are punishing them - it's like having a robot.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by ananemone

[Tanaqui]

Maybe it's a kind of reaction to the rapid "progressiveness" and social instability we've seen in the west in the last few decades.  People feel like things are really out of control (and they are - divorce rates, medicating very young children in ways that would have read as sci-fi not too long ago, enormous debt, international instability, the decline of faith in institutions like school, religion, government, etc.) so some of them react by wanting extreme control.

 

The divorce rate has been on the decline since the 1990s. My guess is that the surge in divorces we see in the 70s and 80s has a lot to do with people who had been in unhappy marriages for years finally having the option to end it without claiming abuse or infidelity.

[FaithManor]

Ananemone, I agree with you.

 

The teaching is just plain dangerous on ever level and amongst legalist Christians, can be very pervasive.

 

 

Beating the devil, the "sin" out of children for just being children? God help us!!!!!

 

 

It makes me sick to my stomach. It makes me want to puke. And while what I have seen locally and personally experienced has not been related to this Elizabeth person's teachings, it was absolutely related to dominionist theology whose natural outcome in the plan to take over the earth by populating it with perfect, smiling, submissive families  is to abuse the crap out of your kids and wife in order to achieve that ultimate goal. No soul, no body, no mind, no heart too important to refrain from sacrificing on the altar of establishing "god's kingdom on earth". In a lot of ways it is religious eugenics. Eliminate the weak, the stragglers, the less genetically pure "spiritually" speaking. It is a very dystopian approach to marriage and family, and while many of the locals who began with that school I attended  have rejected it now entirely, there isn't any fast fix for that level of dysfunction in the home, that level of anger, resentment, pain, and disbelief. While ole BG and buddies would, for the sake of appearances, claim their teachings were never to be taken to that extreme, they are convicted by their own blogs, their own writings, their own words because they have absolutely, positively preached this vile crap to that level of abuse and insanity and promising happy, fulfilled, content, inspiring, godly families...a perfect formula for those with the inner drive to perfectly implement it. And on top of that, they've managed the ultimate coup by getting their poster family on reality TV to market it to the nation on a grand level, and founding a political party that at its inception ran on a morality ticket that included emptying our prisons by stonings, hangings, and beheadings, and making adultery illegal subject to capital punishment in the town square. Doug the dippy do's daddy passed away a few years ago. I have to wonder if he rolled over in his grave when the news of the sex scandal hit the fan.

 

That's why I just never stay silent on these dominionist family threads. I can't take it. People yammer on about sharia law coming to America, about the oppression of women and children through radicalized Islam. Forget it folks. We've already got it here under the guise of radicalized Christianity spread through dominionism and unfortunately BG and friends have had the ears of some very important politicians which is just darn scary if you ask me.

[FaithManor]

The divorce rate has been on the decline since the 1990s. My guess is that the surge in divorces we see in the 70s and 80s has a lot to do with people who had been in unhappy marriages for years finally having the option to end it without claiming abuse or infidelity.

And a slightly more streamlined process because while divorce "for cause" had existed for a long time, it was not easy to prove, and the process was WAY worse than it is now which is saying a lot given that the process now is no picnic most of the time.

[lulalu]

Blsdmomma- maybe your experience on the RGT forum was different from mine. But that is where I was lead to Bill Gothard materials. It really was all the opposite of what you stated. I am glad the board closed because I reallywas getting sucked in. I regret that I spent time thereand spanked my baby before he was 1 before he was "too old and took more work". I really simply wanted to be the best mother I could be.

 

She did encourage separation and courtship for teens. Only like minded families. And even said in normal conditions (meaning your kids were not overseas spreading the gospel) adult married children should live close to parents. She moved her family to share a backyard with her or his parents! And said that was Gods plan.

 

And spanking was the only advice I got.

 

There are so many things I could say.... The education board saying over and over it was fine to not fully educate daughters. Teach them to care for a home....

 

When I was saddened over the loss of another baby and my sil having her tenth baby all I got from everyone was suck it up and be happy for her, bless her, try to think of her needs. And not think of my loss and heart ache. And one lady even stated that it may be hard to not have babies but it is harder when you have a lot and dont know if you can handle more and have to tell others you are pregnant again. That did it for me. I couldnt be around that anymore.

 

I became a better mother when I opened my eyes and parented the child I had, not listening to ladies I dont know who are still in the trenches giving advice because they think they have raised great kids.

 

All these are the same vein- they are legalistic if you do x you produce z. There is only one place that can determine that Gods word.

 

I have family in a church that follows BG teachings still show some of his sermons. I pray they open their eyes!

[lulalu]

Want to share my Duggar experience-

 

Years ago I was helping with a womens conference. They were the guest speakers. This was the year Josie was born. So she was still in the NICU. I called to say we understood and could get other speakers. It was weird- like no thought of canceling crossed their mind.

So they still did the confrence with a baby in the hospital with older siblings taking care of baby and all the others for 3 days!

 

Normally I picked speakers up from airport (dealt with several other "celbs") but they had a person who dressed as they do pick them up. They declined all lunch and dinner with the organizers of the event (no other celebs I know did that)

 

They also stood so still and mean faced during the worship. Their faces will never leave my memory. I guess they really believe only in hymns.

 

And they were very dull speakers. Handed out the BG character definitions. And just were so dul...

 

Ive never seen them the same since.

[TravelingChris]

I think it is always dangerous to listen to people's great advice on how to raise perfect children when their own children aren't even grown.  The people in the homeschooling community that had great children didn't have a formula except loving their children and encouraging family activities (not meaning that they never did anything outside of family activities but they had family celebrations, family dinners, family vacations, etc).  I knew a man who I think may have written a book and certainly spoke to homeschooling conventions stressing all kinds of legalistic views.  I moved from the area and maybe ten years or so later, he was a speaker at a homeschool convention all the way on the other side of the US where I was now living.  He spoke openly how wrong he had been and how it caused great harm to his family.  He was rejecting his previous views and now substituting for the love message that I thought was so important in the other homeschool speakers who had 'succesful" homeschool graduates/  By successful, I mean employed and still happy to visit with their family.

 

 

[FaithManor]

I think it is always dangerous to listen to people's great advice on how to raise perfect children when their own children aren't even grown.  The people in the homeschooling community that had great children didn't have a formula except loving their children and encouraging family activities (not meaning that they never did anything outside of family activities but they had family celebrations, family dinners, family vacations, etc).  I knew a man who I think may have written a book and certainly spoke to homeschooling conventions stressing all kinds of legalistic views.  I moved from the area and maybe ten years or so later, he was a speaker at a homeschool convention all the way on the other side of the US where I was now living.  He spoke openly how wrong he had been and how it caused great harm to his family.  He was rejecting his previous views and now substituting for the love message that I thought was so important in the other homeschool speakers who had 'succesful" homeschool graduates/  By successful, I mean employed and still happy to visit with their family.

I agree completely. This is why I love the college board here. There is just a huge variety of homeschooling parents with a variety of kids working towards this outcome of healthy young adult none of whom are claiming to have all the answers nor claiming that there is just one-right-specific-formulaic-way to get it done. There is a healthy outlook on that forum, and many open minds, lots of encouragement, lots of cheerleading. Love it!

[TranquilMind]

The divorce rate has been on the decline since the 1990s. My guess is that the surge in divorces we see in the 70s and 80s has a lot to do with people who had been in unhappy marriages for years finally having the option to end it without claiming abuse or infidelity.

 

The divorce rate has decreased only because the shacking up rate has increased (which, ironically, decreases the chance of a successful marriage, statistically). 

Having lived through that era, the surge seems to be much more about the extreme focus on "me" coming into play.  In fact, in the 70's, the "me generation" was a thing. 

[FaithManor]

Want to share my Duggar experience-

 

Years ago I was helping with a womens conference. They were the guest speakers. This was the year Josie was born. So she was still in the NICU. I called to say we understood and could get other speakers. It was weird- like no thought of canceling crossed their mind.

So they still did the confrence with a baby in the hospital with older siblings taking care of baby and all the others for 3 days!

 

Normally I picked speakers up from airport (dealt with several other "celbs") but they had a person who dressed as they do pick them up. They declined all lunch and dinner with the organizers of the event (no other celebs I know did that)

 

They also stood so still and mean faced during the worship. Their faces will never leave my memory. I guess they really believe only in hymns.

 

And they were very dull speakers. Handed out the BG character definitions. And just were so dul...

 

Ive never seen them the same since.

This leaving of vulnerable children to the care of an older is pretty normal for them. Michelle and the girls talk about babies being moved out of their parents' room by six months so BG and Chelle could try to conceive again unimpeded by an infant. The infant, including night feedings, was assigned to an older, female sibling. and the homeschooling of said children was assigned to elder children as well. I am not talking here about "helping", but about primary responsibility. It is in their books, and at one point before they purged their blogs, was on the net as well. In the episode about their trip to China, one of the children got very upset and ran to his assigned sister not his mother or father. Neither parent showed the slightest concern for the very distraught little son. When the other child fell of the stage - can't remember the exact episode but I saw the clip on youtube - and was obviously hurt/in pain - they showed not the slightest concern, and again it was the elder sibling/buddy who provided comfort and care.

 

In that regard, my great grandmother was the same. She had 17 children - and were it not for the pre-term labor of two sets of twins - would have had 21. Somewhere along the way it just became too much for her and she stopped caring if they lived or survived. It was nuts. Seriously, the older kids talked about how when one of the younger girls was badly injured and the old country doc worried about her surviving, ole grandma said "Let her die. We got plenty more kids around here, and the runty ones that can't survive on the farm best get on with death so I can get my work done." NO FREAKING JOKE! I can't relate to the mentality, but then I didn't try to raise 17 kids in abject poverty on a barely sustainable farm so maybe I'd have been that hard hearted too. My great aunt survived due to the care of her elder siblings who followed the doctor's orders to the very letter, never leaving her side for a second. Meanwhile, the child's mother never checked on her. Not once. CRAZY!

 

In the context of history, I am not certain that this attitude was uncommon and especially so when infant and child mortality rates were quite high. I've heard of families that didn't even name children until they were a year old, and mothers who refused to be even remotely affectionate with children until they were that old or older so as to not feel so much pain when they inevitably died in infancy. I suppose it was a survival mechanism.

[TranquilMind]

I think it is always dangerous to listen to people's great advice on how to raise perfect children when their own children aren't even grown.  The people in the homeschooling community that had great children didn't have a formula except loving their children and encouraging family activities (not meaning that they never did anything outside of family activities but they had family celebrations, family dinners, family vacations, etc).  I knew a man who I think may have written a book and certainly spoke to homeschooling conventions stressing all kinds of legalistic views.  I moved from the area and maybe ten years or so later, he was a speaker at a homeschool convention all the way on the other side of the US where I was now living.  He spoke openly how wrong he had been and how it caused great harm to his family.  He was rejecting his previous views and now substituting for the love message that I thought was so important in the other homeschool speakers who had 'succesful" homeschool graduates/  By successful, I mean employed and still happy to visit with their family.

 

Yeah.  I noticed an amusing trend back when I had young kids and was reading all these "expert" books.  Half the time, it would say that the so-called "expert" had maybe one toddler.

 

Parenting is like childbirth.  You just cannot explain it to someone who hasn't done it and make the experience clear. 

 

I remember when another new mom and I talked about this; we had both given birth in the past couple of weeks.  We actually talked and laughed about this, and how no one who told us what it was like came even close.

 

This is like that. 

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

This leaving of vulnerable children to the care of an older is pretty normal for them. Michelle and the girls talk about babies being moved out of their parents' room by six months so BG and Chelle could try to conceive again unimpeded by an infant. The infant, including night feedings, was assigned to an older, female sibling. and the homeschooling of said children was assigned to elder children as well. I am not talking here about "helping", but about primary responsibility. It is in their books, and at one point before they purged their blogs, was on the net as well. In the episode about their trip to China, one of the children got very upset and ran to his assigned sister not his mother or father. Neither parent showed the slightest concern for the very distraught little son. When the other child fell of the stage - can't remember the exact episode but I saw the clip on youtube - and was obviously hurt/in pain - they showed not the slightest concern, and again it was the elder sibling/buddy who provided comfort and care.

 

In that regard, my great grandmother was the same. She had 17 children - and were it not for the pre-term labor of two sets of twins - would have had 21. Somewhere along the way it just became too much for her and she stopped caring if they lived or survived. It was nuts. Seriously, the older kids talked about how when one of the younger girls was badly injured and the old country doc worried about her surviving, ole grandma said "Let her die. We got plenty more kids around here, and the runty ones that can't survive on the farm best get on with death so I can get my work done." NO FREAKING JOKE! I can't relate to the mentality, but then I didn't try to raise 17 kids in abject poverty on a barely sustainable farm so maybe I'd have been that hard hearted too. My great aunt survived due to the care of her elder siblings who followed the doctor's orders to the very letter, never leaving her side for a second. Meanwhile, the child's mother never checked on her. Not once. CRAZY!

 

In the context of history, I am not certain that this attitude was uncommon and especially so when infant and child mortality rates were quite high. I've heard of families that didn't even name children until they were a year old, and mothers who refused to be even remotely affectionate with children until they were that old or older so as to not feel so much pain when they inevitably died in infancy. I suppose it was a survival mechanism.

 

That is hard to even imagine.

 

[FaithManor]

Yeah.  I noticed an amusing trend back when I had young kids and was reading all these "expert" books.  Half the time, it would say that the so-called "expert" had maybe one toddler.

 

Parenting is like childbirth.  You just cannot explain it to someone who hasn't done it and make the experience clear. 

 

I remember when another new mom and I talked about this; we had both given birth in the past couple of weeks.  We actually talked and laughed about this, and how no one who told us what it was like came even close.

 

This is like that. 

 

Yup!

 

I remember a woman who had never had children telling me when I was pregnant with dd that "childbirth is no big deal and not painful at all."

 

Yah...dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it!

 

Some "experts" just need to keep their opinions to themselves lest they be exposed for the ninnies they really are, LOL.

[TranquilMind]

Yup!

 

I remember a woman who had never had children telling me when I was pregnant with dd that "childbirth is no big deal and not painful at all."

 

Yah...dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it!

 

Some "experts" just need to keep their opinions to themselves lest they be exposed for the ninnies they really are, LOL.

Actually, childbirth itself was a piece of cake for me.  Even though I was over 35 and had no drugs and was at home. 

 

The breastfeeding afterward is another story.   Those people that said this was easy were all LIARS.  ;)

 

I guess I'm the opposite of most - no surprise. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[eternalsummer]

Yup!

 

I remember a woman who had never had children telling me when I was pregnant with dd that "childbirth is no big deal and not painful at all."

 

Yah...dry that out and you can fertilize the lawn with it!

 

Some "experts" just need to keep their opinions to themselves lest they be exposed for the ninnies they really are, LOL.

 

My SIL/best friend has had two children; both were unmedicated births and her pain never went above a 5 (on that 1-10 scale they give you).

 

!!!!!

 

Completely unfair.  

 

The thing is, I have 5 kids (almost 6) and while I have had enough experience with some specific things to give decent advice (only buy washable crayons, for instance), on the whole I definitely don't have a comprehensive understanding of How To Raise Children.  I don't see myself *ever* having that understanding :)

[FaithManor]

But washable crayons is not a matter of opinion, but one of moral truth!  :D

[cjzimmer1]

I remember a woman who had never had children telling me when I was pregnant with dd that "childbirth is no big deal and not painful at all."

 

 

 

Actually, childbirth itself was a piece of cake for me.  Even though I was over 35 and had no drugs and was at home. 

 

 

 

I've always said I'd take being in labor over being pregnant any day.  I wouldn't say it's painless but it's short lived (for me my last labor was 1.25 hours and the only reason it was that long was because he had a cord around his neck and I had to push for 30 minutes instead of my usual 2-3 minutes) and I can cope just fine without drugs.  But I know that isn't everyone's experience.

[Guest]

I've always said I'd take being in labor over being pregnant any day. I wouldn't say it's painless but it's short lived (for me my last labor was 1.25 hours and the only reason it was that long was because he had a cord around his neck and I had to push for 30 minutes instead of my usual 2-3 minutes) and I can cope just fine without drugs. But I know that isn't everyone's experience.

I would love that! I have easy pregnancies, except SPD, but my labors are horrendous. All but one of my kids has been some kind of malposition, even with lots of Webster chiro and Spinning Babies. I tend to have lengthy labors and lots or prodromal nonsense too. Thankfully the kids are all okay but I've had mild to moderate PTSD twice already, along with some nasty post partum depression to add insult to injury.

 

But in eight pregnancies (six healthy ones so far) I can count the number of times I've thrown up on two hands, cumulatively. I end up exhausted and with pelvic pain, but I could be pregnant forever compared to giving birth. I'm honestly terrified to do it again with this baby and am just blocking it out for the time being!

Edited June 22, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[cjzimmer1]

 

But in eight pregnancies (six healthy ones so far) I can count the number of times I've thrown up on two hands, cumulatively. I end up exhausted and with pelvic pain, but I could be pregnant forever compared to giving birth. I'm honestly terrified to do it again with this baby and am just blocking it out for the time being!

 

That's a days worth of puking for me. My pregnancies are horrible. Months and months and months of puking.  Even with meds I still puke.

[FaithManor]

I do think it is interesting that Dip the do da was out there giving advice and guaranteeing results when he only had a few little ones at home himself. I mean he talked like he was the resident expert in parenting teens and young adults, and when he started Vision Forum and claimed his way would produce these future generations - 200 years - of perfect, godly families, he'd only barely started one himself. Not a clue. None. Totally ignorant. A lawyer for goodness sake, not someone with a teaching degree, a child development degree, a psychology or social work degree, or anything else related to kids, and no life or job experience with children to bring to the table whatsoever as all he'd done up to that point was work as a lawyer. And all of it was him running off at the mouth while his wife, at home in the trenches, said not much at all.

 

 

Grrrr......

[FaithManor]

That's a days worth of puking for me. My pregnancies are horrible. Months and months and months of puking.  Even with meds I still puke.

Me too.

 

A couple of times hospitalized. Not good. Not good at all.

[ikslo]

But washable crayons is not a matter of opinion, but one of moral truth!  :D

 

I hate washable crayons, and would never torture my child with them!  Thankfully, he was never into crayons.  We both prefer pencils.

 

 

 

Now back to the motion picture.

[TranquilMind]

I've always said I'd take being in labor over being pregnant any day.  I wouldn't say it's painless but it's short lived (for me my last labor was 1.25 hours and the only reason it was that long was because he had a cord around his neck and I had to push for 30 minutes instead of my usual 2-3 minutes) and I can cope just fine without drugs.  But I know that isn't everyone's experience.

Yeah.  Glad he came out ok.

 

I pushed for 4 hours with one. That was rather exhausting. ;)

 

But the breastfeeding.  WHOA.  That was awful.  That really hurt. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[BlsdMama]

Maybe it's a kind of reaction to the rapid "progressiveness" and social instability we've seen in the west in the last few decades.  People feel like things are really out of control (and they are - divorce rates, medicating very young children in ways that would have read as sci-fi not too long ago, enormous debt, international instability, the decline of faith in institutions like school, religion, government, etc.) so some of them react by wanting extreme control.

 

There are similar things happening on the left of course, it is not just religious people - it just manifests differently. 

 

 

 

I think people like control period.

It doesn't matter whether they want safety, or to be esteemed, or just plain love the rush of power.

 

 

And when they want to control they lack any type of grace or compassion or empathy. :(  It's why there will NEVER be a one size, apply it all philosophy to raising kids.  The minute you don't have a real relationship with the kid in front of you, with all of their weaknesses and strengths, and ya can't truly appreciate the amazing way in which the iNDIVIDUAL was made... there is some kind of disconnect.  I love the prayer about turning the hearts of fathers towards their children...

 

"He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.â€

 

And then, so much talk about motivation of children, but as parents we have to look at own motivation too.  Do we want to EQUIP our kids to be strong, be capable, be loving, be compassionate... Or do we just want to revel in power over someone?

 

I might not agree with everything you say, but I definitely respect it.  There is much truth, consideration, and thought in your words.

[maize]

I would love that! I have easy pregnancies, except SPD, but my labors are horrendous. All but one of my kids has been some kind of malposition, even with lots of Webster chiro and Spinning Babies. I tend to have lengthy labors and lots or prodromal nonsense too. Thankfully the kids are all okay but I've had mild to moderate PTSD twice already, along with some nasty post partum depression to add insult to injury.

 

But in eight pregnancies (six healthy ones so far) I can count the number of times I've thrown up on two hands, cumulatively. I end up exhausted and with pelvic pain, but I could be pregnant forever compared to giving birth. I'm honestly terrified to do it again with this baby and am just blocking it out for the time being!

My fourth and fifth births were awful, with number six I just couldn't face it and demanded an epidural the moment I got to the hospital.

 

Long, long labors here. Sigh.

[BlsdMama]

Blsdmomma- maybe your experience on the RGT forum was different from mine. But that is where I was lead to Bill Gothard materials. It really was all the opposite of what you stated. I am glad the board closed because I reallywas getting sucked in. I regret that I spent time thereand spanked my baby before he was 1 before he was "too old and took more work". I really simply wanted to be the best mother I could be.

 

She did encourage separation and courtship for teens. Only like minded families. And even said in normal conditions (meaning your kids were not overseas spreading the gospel) adult married children should live close to parents. She moved her family to share a backyard with her or his parents! And said that was Gods plan.

 

And spanking was the only advice I got.

 

There are so many things I could say.... The education board saying over and over it was fine to not fully educate daughters. Teach them to care for a home....

 

When I was saddened over the loss of another baby and my sil having her tenth baby all I got from everyone was suck it up and be happy for her, bless her, try to think of her needs. And not think of my loss and heart ache. And one lady even stated that it may be hard to not have babies but it is harder when you have a lot and dont know if you can handle more and have to tell others you are pregnant again. That did it for me. I couldnt be around that anymore.

 

I became a better mother when I opened my eyes and parented the child I had, not listening to ladies I dont know who are still in the trenches giving advice because they think they have raised great kids.

 

All these are the same vein- they are legalistic if you do x you produce z. There is only one place that can determine that Gods word.

 

I have family in a church that follows BG teachings still show some of his sermons. I pray they open their eyes!

 

 

Wow.  :( :( :(  I had to have been there when you were there?  I know that I didn't spend a huge amount of time on the baby/toddler stuff because I suck at blanket training, etc., because it seems like a lot of effort for something without purpose but I had not heard of Gothard until I came here.  I would think if it was discussed over there I would have recognized it.  Was it in PMs?  There were definitely some people who were... um, over the top? But I never felt like they were encouraged in their crazy.  I've always been an advocate in no CIO, breastfeeding on demand, baby wearing, responsive parenting and never felt like I was the only one or like I was the odd man out as a person practicing attachment parenting.  (All of our kids slept with us for years and nursed on demand except for oldest DD.) I will part ways on the education board - it's where I spent the most time because that board really didn't press academic education for boys or girls, imo.  But, slowly, we were making headway on that.  I know at least two older mamas there whose girls went to college and I think one of them is now pursuing her Masters.  And obviously there is me. :D  I very specifically remember her disagreeing with courtship.  And the reason I specifically remember was because there was a term coined for it - dorting.  The idea that courtship wasn't ideal and neither was dating - that there need to be some kind of middle, where the young adults didn't feel like they MUST marry this person (like in courtship) if it wasn't a good match but where there wasn't the purposelessness (is that a word?  or  the right word?)  that CAN exist in dating and (ahem) more "free" behavior, kwim?  However, I specifically remember the conversation you are remembering about being close to parents. I don't agree with it entirely, but I will tell you that there are parts I agree with... But I'm pretty raw about it.  My maternal grandmother died a few years ago and she wasn't alone because her kids were near.  She required a lot of care at the end and, like many other cultures, I *do* believe it is the kids' responsibilty to make sure their aging parents are safe and well cared for.  The things that are done in nursing homes when no one checks on the elderly is a disgusting shame. :( :( :( The same with my maternal grandpa - he needed people to check in on him and care for him, to administer shots, and once he fell and laid on a cold floor all night.  What if he only had checks a couple times per week?  Our society does not care for the aging parents.  That said, I do not know as I would go so far as to say "God's plan." I don't like putting words in His mouth or making claims for Him.  I figure He can handle that.  But I recognize the value in it -but I'm also someone who lived across the country twice from my parents.  

 

I know nothing of Gothard or his teachings - you have to realize I didn't grow up religious at all and as an adult, do not attend church so I'm under no one's teaching, just reading scripture.  I'm guessing BG wouldn't be very fond of me either......................

[BlsdMama]

My fourth and fifth births were awful, with number six I just couldn't face it and demanded an epidural the moment I got to the hospital.

 

Long, long labors here. Sigh.

 

 

Most of my births were really lovely, most unmedicated, insanely short, and I STILL ordered the epidural after I changed into my gown with #12.  I don't think it affected God's opinion of me, but what do I know.

[FaithManor]

 

 

 

I know nothing of Gothard or his teachings - you have to realize I didn't grow up religious at all and as an adult, do not attend church so I'm under no one's teaching, just reading scripture.  I'm guessing BG wouldn't be very fond of me either......................

Uhm, a female who thinks for herself and looks at scripture over BG's newletters and ATI manuals???? You vixen you! You harlot, you Jezebel, you.....

 

:D Yup BG would hate you. He'd hate you good!

[pinkmint]

That's a days worth of puking for me. My pregnancies are horrible. Months and months and months of puking. Even with meds I still puke.

I realize this is getting really sidetracked now but I too puke really bad, numerous times daily for months on end, all even while heavily Zofran medicated in pregnancy and I have to wonder sometimes how it effects willingness to have a certain number of children.

 

The women I've known with many children tend to not have the violent vomit fest pregnancies. I'm basically a hair shy of dead during the first half of pregnancy. I probably would be dead if we were quiverful.

[BlsdMama]

This leaving of vulnerable children to the care of an older is pretty normal for them. Michelle and the girls talk about babies being moved out of their parents' room by six months so BG and Chelle could try to conceive again unimpeded by an infant. The infant, including night feedings, was assigned to an older, female sibling. and the homeschooling of said children was assigned to elder children as well. I am not talking here about "helping", but about primary responsibility. It is in their books, and at one point before they purged their blogs, was on the net as well. In the episode about their trip to China, one of the children got very upset and ran to his assigned sister not his mother or father. Neither parent showed the slightest concern for the very distraught little son. When the other child fell of the stage - can't remember the exact episode but I saw the clip on youtube - and was obviously hurt/in pain - they showed not the slightest concern, and again it was the elder sibling/buddy who provided comfort and care.

 

In that regard, my great grandmother was the same. She had 17 children - and were it not for the pre-term labor of two sets of twins - would have had 21. Somewhere along the way it just became too much for her and she stopped caring if they lived or survived. It was nuts. Seriously, the older kids talked about how when one of the younger girls was badly injured and the old country doc worried about her surviving, ole grandma said "Let her die. We got plenty more kids around here, and the runty ones that can't survive on the farm best get on with death so I can get my work done." NO FREAKING JOKE! I can't relate to the mentality, but then I didn't try to raise 17 kids in abject poverty on a barely sustainable farm so maybe I'd have been that hard hearted too. My great aunt survived due to the care of her elder siblings who followed the doctor's orders to the very letter, never leaving her side for a second. Meanwhile, the child's mother never checked on her. Not once. CRAZY!

 

In the context of history, I am not certain that this attitude was uncommon and especially so when infant and child mortality rates were quite high. I've heard of families that didn't even name children until they were a year old, and mothers who refused to be even remotely affectionate with children until they were that old or older so as to not feel so much pain when they inevitably died in infancy. I suppose it was a survival mechanism.

 

That is horrid.  I don't know if the losses made her withdraw and be mentally ill, but I can swear to you that in a large family we aren't that different than a small one.

Each child is unique.  Each child is a gift.  Each child is so very different from one another that a hole left by any single one of them would leave a hole for a lifetime.  I watched my premature daughter die in my arms in 2001 and I am telling you I remember every horrible moment.  We buried my nephews in February of this and I relived every wretched minute.  What you list above is the result of seriously unhealthy mental illness *not* a large family mentality.

[BlsdMama]

Uhm, a female who thinks for herself and looks at scripture over BG's newletters and ATI manuals???? You vixen you! You harlot, you Jezebel, you.....

 

:D Yup BG would hate you. He'd hate you good!

 

Probably. ;)  And back at school and encouraging my oldest to get her Masters.... Good  thing I'm okay with the only One who matters. ;)

[Guest]

Uhm, a female who thinks for herself and looks at scripture over BG's newletters and ATI manuals???? You vixen you! You harlot, you Jezebel, you.....

 

:D Yup BG would hate you. He'd hate you good!

I have to wonder how BG will react when/if we get a female president. *snicker*

[Zinnia]

I, too, was on RGT.  

 

I grew up in the church, though, and I was exposed to a whole lot of churchy vocabulary and ideas and thoughts from one end to the other of the evangelical spectrum.   That board definitely talked about BG, and E *did* think that BG had a "lot of good ideas," and she went to at least the first conference that he does (maybe not the advanced one).   Things might have been couched in different language and the like, but it was there.  Some things can be expressed in only churchy words to other churchy people--we left a church recently because of doctrinal/theological issues, and we didn't want to get in a point by point discussion.  So we just told them that we decided to leave, and we were visiting xyz church, but hadn't decided yet.  XYZ church is now a mega church, but the roots are very different theologically than the church we left (think anglican vs church of God).  That's all we had to say, and the response was, "perfect!  I hope that's a better fit."  They understood without a big discussion, which is what we wanted.  

 

On that board, there were definitely abused women (and I don't say that lightly) that were not encouraged to leave.  Like, sleep naked on the floor while you are pregnant because you don't deserve a bed or blanket, abused.  As well as more obvious physical abuse.  I wonder about some of those women and what happened to them.

 

I remember you, LoLo!  :)