Indulging my petty side: Jinger Duggar has a boyfriend.

[MrsMommy]

Whatever. You don't know everyone and what they have survived.

 

Neither do you.

[Guest]

Quoting to indicate that I like this x1000.

 

It is clueless to the point of cruelty to say that people who want to leave can leave. Maybe they can. Maybe they can't. Maybe they will. Maybe they won't. It's not as simple as "breaking away".

Yup. I recall having a conversation with someone who was instructing me on what I needed to say to someone who had controlled me so thouroughly, I had no sense of my own agency. It went like this,

Friend: "...and then you will just tell him that you are doing X, Y, Z..."

Me: " oh, no, I could never say that!"

Friend: "What do you mean? You just tell him..."

Me: "no, no. We don't have that kind of relationship. I can never say that..."

Friend: "But it's just word. You just simply say..."

Me: "no, I can't say that..."

[Audrey]

She is a young unmarried woman. She still has options. Regardless what some here seem to believe, you cannot force someone to say I do.

 

Of course you can.  You've never heard of shotgun weddings???   Emotional and financial blackmail, brainwashing, and threats all can work as well as sticking a literal shotgun in someone's back. 

[barnwife]

Many DO break away.

 

i guess I don't see this situation as already hopeless, as you apparently do. Give the girl some credit. Wait and see what she does. It's so offensive to write off a 22 year old because of issues in her family or with other siblings. You know absolutely nothing about what friends she may have it what goals she holds. Maybe she is doing exactly what she wants. Time will tell.

I certainly haven't written her off yet.

 

However, the deck certainly seem to be stacked against her. She has been brainwashed her whole life. She has no money, very little education, very little support (that she is aware of) outside of her cult, etc...

 

Your posts are coming off very harsh in this thread. I do agree, however, that time will tell. And hopefully it will be a happy ending for her (whatever that is in her eyes).

[Guest]

Many DO break away.

 

i guess I don't see this situation as already hopeless, as you apparently do. Give the girl some credit. Wait and see what she does. It's so offensive to write off a 22 year old because of issues in her family or with other siblings. You know absolutely nothing about what friends she may have it what goals she holds. Maybe she is doing exactly what she wants. Time will tell.

Did you ever see the episode in which Jinger says she wants to move to a city, a big city, like New York City? Did you see that? Because her mother came right along and "explained" that Jinger didn't mean the city, certainly not a big city, she meant somewhere bigger than her tiny hometown; something with a Walmart nearby.

 

As an adult who grew up with exactly this kind of, "You didn't mean this, you don't want that" rescripting, I can tell you what it does. It creates learned helplessness.

 

To an outside person, it seems like, "Well, what's the big deal? If Jinger wants to move to the City, she should just go right ahead and do so. She can live in a microscopic apartment and work waiting tables at three different diners, just as many other young folks have done." But it isn't like that when you have grown up under uber-tight control as they have.

 

Just as my friend could not see what was so impossible about just saying a couple of words, so you seem to think she can just decide to do something different next week and go about doing that with no fall-out.

[FaithManor]

http://micahjmurray.com/bill-gothard-homeschool-cult/

 

Just one of many stories of survivors. Check out Leaving Fundamentalism, Patheos, Wartburg Watch, and Recovering Grace for more articles.

 

My own story of a semester spent in an ATI/Gothard following parochial school is too triggering to relate though I have in times past shared snippets. It was THAT abusive, and classic brainwashing techniques were employed by the faculty and pastors.

 

Interestingly, it was often not domineering, abusive, misogynist men who lead their families into ATI. At least that was my dad's experience when he was deep into counseling families to leave the cult. Usually it appealed to the women first as a formula to have a godly, perfect family. The men often came along grudgingly but then were eventually corrupted by the teachings, and as they were browbeat by the leadership to rule their families with iron fists so their souls would not be lost to hell for the most bizarre "sins"...girls wearing pants, adult children going to college, spacing pregnancies, young children failing to obey immediately with a smile no matter what the request, failing to beat (yes, beat...out and out just beat the crap out of these kids) the children, failing to force the wife to submit, failing to work in a self-employed capacity in order to provide a place for adult children to work without being in a "secular" environment and made to feel lesser than for not owning a business, using allopathic medicine instead of naturopathic, hospital births (Gohard is death on those and preaches that women need C sections because of sin and demon possession and cites "stories" of midwives who removed cabbage patch dolls, troll dolls, barbie dolls, and stuffed animals from the home and magically the stalled labor progressed or the stuck baby was born and blah blah blah, and....), if they didn't run, they caved in order to be "godly heads of households".

 

For many men, much of what he preaches is counter-intuitive to how they would naturally parent or relate to their wives. Of course second generation ATI boys tend to be brainwashed so early that they've got the process of demanding and getting cultlike submission from their wives and kids down pat.

 

ATI also teaches that high school math and science is NOT good for girls because they should have no dreams of attending college as their job is to be helpmeets, baby incubators, and such. They are not to pursue careers, evah. Higher math and science is also discouraged though not prohibited for males because it might encourage them to go to the godless colleges. There are a few, very few, Bible schools that are approved for boys. Kentucky Mountain Bible Institute is one. Even Bob Jones is too liberal for this organization as girls can graduate with a variety of degrees and that includes medical sciences which means higher math, higher science, potential careers. KMBC only offers degrees in Worship, Youth Ministry, Christian Education, World Missions, and Bible/Divinity. I imagine they will be on the naughty list soon though as they have been pursuing a two year RN degree where students take all of their math and science as well as clinicals  at a community college, but live on KMBC campus and take Bible classes. This would be too much, just crazy too much for ATI. 

 

They claim "some college " is okay, but by that they mean saying that their kids did online college plus coursework which is actually quite dubious and not accepted at most schools, and CLEP which again while some colleges accept CLEP it is for a minimum number of courses not in the student's major or minor, and the organization does not claim that this is "coursework". Again the concept is that the young adult is not ever away from mom and dad's watchful eye until marriage.

[KungFuPanda]

I just can't help but think that this family does not have a long history in this lifestyle.  It's ONE generation.  The parents didn't grow up this way.  They decided well after marriage.  It's like a phase that they've been too public about and now pride won't let them out.  There is just no way that ALL of those kids are going to continue to live this way and raise their families this way.  They MUST have relatives they can turn to for some normalcy.  It's not like they're Amish and will be shunned by their entire family.  As more and more siblings marry and have access to the world, or at least the internet, it's going to get easier and easier to build a less extreme life.  As the boys come of age they'll have even fewer restrictions on their movement and opportunities.  JimBobTopia just doesn't seem sustainable to me.

Edited June 21, 2016 by KungFuPanda

[TranquilMind]

Neither do you.

Never said I did. Now back to Jinger.

 

I hope she makes a great decision and am unwilling to write her off because of who her family is.

[FaithManor]

And no one is writing her off. In fact, many poster have indicated that they hope that this relationship with a non-standard ATI poster boy is a sign that Jinger may be thinking for herself, that she may in fact be able to leave.

[TranquilMind]

I just can't help but think that this family does not have a long history in this lifestyle. It's ONE generation. The parents didn't grow up this way. They decided well after marriage. It's like a phase that they've been too public about and now pride won't let them out. There is just no way that ALL of those kids are going to continue to live this way and raise their families this way. They MUST have relatives they can turn to for some normalcy. It's not like they're Amish and will be shunned by their entire family. As more and more siblings marry and have access to the world, or at least the internet, it's going to get easier and easier to build a less extreme life. As the boys come of age they'll have even fewer restrictions on their movement and opportunities. JimBobTopia just doesn't seem sustainable to me.

Exactly. I agree. They don't only know people like their parents and who live as that family does.

[TranquilMind]

Did you ever see the episode in which Jinger says she wants to move to a city, a big city, like New York City? Did you see that? Because her mother came right along and "explained" that Jinger didn't mean the city, certainly not a big city, she meant somewhere bigger than her tiny hometown; something with a Walmart nearby.

 

As an adult who grew up with exactly this kind of, "You didn't mean this, you don't want that" rescripting, I can tell you what it does. It creates learned helplessness.

 

To an outside person, it seems like, "Well, what's the big deal? If Jinger wants to move to the City, she should just go right ahead and do so. She can live in a microscopic apartment and work waiting tables at three different diners, just as many other young folks have done." But it isn't like that when you have grown up under uber-tight control as they have.

 

Just as my friend could not see what was so impossible about just saying a couple of words, so you seem to think she can just decide to do something different next week and go about doing that with no fall-out.

I did not see it but am fairly positive that Michelle cannot read her daughter's mind.

 

I would be shocked if all 19 decide to live exactly as the parents have.

[Tanaqui]

i guess I don't see this situation as already hopeless, as you apparently do.

 

Do NOT put words in my mouth.

 

I didn't say the situation was "hopeless". I said it is far more difficult to leave an unhealthy dynamic than you make it out to be, and the fact that she hasn't left is no proof that she doesn't want to.

[TranquilMind]

I certainly haven't written her off yet.

 

However, the deck certainly seem to be stacked against her. She has been brainwashed her whole life. She has no money, very little education, very little support (that she is aware of) outside of her cult, etc...

 

Your posts are coming off very harsh in this thread. I do agree, however, that time will tell. And hopefully it will be a happy ending for her (whatever that is in her eyes).

So did the kids not get paid? As adults (the ones who were), I can only imagine that remuneration was part of the deal.

[TranquilMind]

Of course you can. You've never heard of shotgun weddings??? Emotional and financial blackmail, brainwashing, and threats all can work as well as sticking a literal shotgun in someone's back.

Well, sure.

 

50 years ago.

[Guest]

I did not see it but am fairly positive that Michelle cannot read her daughter's mind.

 

I would be shocked if all 19 decide to live exactly as the parents have.

That is EXACTLY my point! Michelle cannot read her mind, but she wants her kids to think only this one certain way.

 

I'm banking that all 19 will not, but those last youngest kids will probably have better options, if only because their parents will be too elderly to maintain as much control as they wish.

[TranquilMind]

That is EXACTLY my point! Michelle cannot read her mind, but she wants her kids to think only this one certain way.

 

I'm banking that all 19 will not, but those last youngest kids will probably have better options, if only because their parents will be too elderly to maintain as much control as they wish.

Eh, so what? So what if Michelle has strongly held views?

 

So have many parents through the years, with varying levels of success. Some have kids who have ditched their parents entirely.

 

Zero correlation between Mom's commitment to her views and kid's chances of obeying. Some will want what mom wants; some will not.

[Crimson Wife]

He's pretty attractive so I hope she isn't just thinking how can she get some Duggar-sanctioned action. Hormones can definitely do a number on a woman Jinger's age and while I do believe it's best to hold off on s*x, the Duggars are whacked-out crazy strict about not having ANY physical contact whatsoever.

[Tanaqui]

So did the kids not get paid? As adults (the ones who were), I can only imagine that remuneration was part of the deal.

 

There are no protections for children on reality shows as there are for child actors.

 

Although the adult children may have been compensated, in a dysfunctional family situation people may be coerced into handing over what ought to be theirs.

 

Eh, so what? So what if Michelle has strongly held views?

 

Michelle doesn't "have strongly held views", Michelle actively engages in gaslighting. It is literally crazy-making. Perhaps you think that you'd just shake it off. Perhaps you think everybody ought to be able to just buck up and get over it. Bully for you, not everybody has these heroic powers of resilience.

[Guest]

Eh, so what? So what if Michelle has strongly held views?

 

So have many parents through the years, with varying levels of success. Some have kids who have ditched their parents entirely.

 

Zero correlation between Mom's commitment to her views and kid's chances of obeying. Some will want what mom wants; some will not.

Clearly you don't understand learned helplessness.

 

I hope Jinger does go where she wants and do her life her own way. I hope she does. I actually think Jill has the best chance so far of having a family her and Derrick's way. He does not appear to be a total nut job. And they went away, which puts them outside the immediate influence of Jim Boob. Maybe it is a good sign that Jinger's beau is not a sycophantic window-repair guy with twenty siblings.

 

Time will tell.

[Audrey]

Well, sure.

 

50 years ago.

 

 

Tactics of 50 years ago are pretty progressive compared to what the Gothard cult prescribes.  I don't know if you know about the cult, but there are a lot of posts here about it, as well as a (thankfully small) group of posters with first-hand experience actually being *in* the cult.  It's ... beyond bizarre.  I would encourage you to read up on some of the mind games parents are prescribed to play on their children.  It's not a matter of raising girls to respect the art of mothering and wifehood.  It's a matter of excluding them from ANYTHING else and limiting their entire selfhood and value to producing a level of perfection in only those roles.  In addition to that, they are strictly taught automatic obedience and to maintain a cheerful countenance at all times.  The Duggar girls have never known anything else, so even if they did have later exposure to other lifestyles and choices, their brainwashing has been so carefully inculcated that thinking for themselves beyond their ingrained conditioning is extremely difficult, if at all possible. 

 

Edited for typos and half a missing sentence.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Audrey

[Tanaqui]

The Duggar girls have never known anything else, so even if they did have later exposure to other lifestyles and choices, their brainwashing has been so carefully inculcated that thinking for themselves beyond their ingrained conditioning is extremely difficult, if at all possible.

 

You know, I'm sure we could find some blogs by people who have left ATI or similarly abusive cults (and other abusive situations). I've read some, for that matter, though I don't have the links to hand. They all reiterate, again and again, how hard it was to realize their situation was bad - or even that it was abnormal. How painful it was to leave. How difficult it was to start a new life for themselves.

[BlsdMama]

http://micahjmurray.com/bill-gothard-homeschool-cult/

 

Just one of many stories of survivors. Check out Leaving Fundamentalism, Patheos, Wartburg Watch, and Recovering Grace for more articles.

 

My own story of a semester spent in an ATI/Gothard following parochial school is too triggering to relate though I have in times past shared snippets. It was THAT abusive, and classic brainwashing techniques were employed by the faculty and pastors.

 

Interestingly, it was often not domineering, abusive, misogynist men who lead their families into ATI. At least that was my dad's experience when he was deep into counseling families to leave the cult. Usually it appealed to the women first as a formula to have a godly, perfect family. The men often came along grudgingly but then were eventually corrupted by the teachings, and as they were browbeat by the leadership to rule their families with iron fists so their souls would not be lost to hell for the most bizarre "sins"...girls wearing pants, adult children going to college, spacing pregnancies, young children failing to obey immediately with a smile no matter what the request, failing to beat (yes, beat...out and out just beat the crap out of these kids) the children, failing to force the wife to submit, failing to work in a self-employed capacity in order to provide a place for adult children to work without being in a "secular" environment and made to feel lesser than for not owning a business, using allopathic medicine instead of naturopathic, hospital births (Gohard is death on those and preaches that women need C sections because of sin and demon possession and cites "stories" of midwives who removed cabbage patch dolls, troll dolls, barbie dolls, and stuffed animals from the home and magically the stalled labor progressed or the stuck baby was born and blah blah blah, and....), if they didn't run, they caved in order to be "godly heads of households".

 

For many men, much of what he preaches is counter-intuitive to how they would naturally parent or relate to their wives. Of course second generation ATI boys tend to be brainwashed so early that they've got the process of demanding and getting cultlike submission from their wives and kids down pat.

 

ATI also teaches that high school math and science is NOT good for girls because they should have no dreams of attending college as their job is to be helpmeets, baby incubators, and such. They are not to pursue careers, evah. Higher math and science is also discouraged though not prohibited for males because it might encourage them to go to the godless colleges. There are a few, very few, Bible schools that are approved for boys. Kentucky Mountain Bible Institute is one. Even Bob Jones is too liberal for this organization as girls can graduate with a variety of degrees and that includes medical sciences which means higher math, higher science, potential careers. KMBC only offers degrees in Worship, Youth Ministry, Christian Education, World Missions, and Bible/Divinity. I imagine they will be on the naughty list soon though as they have been pursuing a two year RN degree where students take all of their math and science as well as clinicals at a community college, but live on KMBC campus and take Bible classes. This would be too much, just crazy too much for ATI.

 

They claim "some college " is okay, but by that they mean saying that their kids did online college plus coursework which is actually quite dubious and not accepted at most schools, and CLEP which again while some colleges accept CLEP it is for a minimum number of courses not in the student's major or minor, and the organization does not claim that this is "coursework". Again the concept is that the young adult is not ever away from mom and dad's watchful eye until marriage.

So I don't think I understand AT I very well. I'm unfamiliar with the religion. And I've only seen the show a handful of times, but they seem to be pretty relationship focused as a family? I've seen the girls volunteering at the fire station, and each of them seems to have their own personality. I can understand belonging to a group like this is pretty frightening but I think they murmur be utterly controlled. Didn't one of the girls become a midwife? And I have to say, no offense to Jim Bob, but his wife is the brains of that show. Seems nice enough but I don't think he comes off as forceful, demanding our controlling. I suspect his wife gets everything done by gentle suggestion while he then thinks it is his idea.

 

I don't know.... As I said I haven't watched a lot but they just seem as though they are very connected to one another and the body language looks relaxed with solid eye contact, confident voices, etc. While I didn't know much of AT I and much of what you said caught me off guard, they just don't come off as cowed.

[Audrey]

You know, I'm sure we could find some blogs by people who have left ATI or similarly abusive cults (and other abusive situations). I've read some, for that matter, though I don't have the links to hand. They all reiterate, again and again, how hard it was to realize their situation was bad - or even that it was abnormal. How painful it was to leave. How difficult it was to start a new life for themselves.

 

 

There is this site/blog:  http://www.recoveringgrace.org/

[FaithManor]

Of course you can. You've never heard of shotgun weddings??? Emotional and financial blackmail, brainwashing, and threats all can work as well as sticking a literal shotgun in someone's back.

There wss no shotgun at my grandmother's civil ceremony, but as a 17 year old who was told to marry the fella or be beat within an inch of her lif and then excommunicated, she figured she better go along with it. My grandparents hated each other for many years.

 

The "Let Them Marry" conference which thankfuly did not take place was designed to betroth kids as young as 12 encouraging the weddings to take place at 15. While the conference did not happen, the organizer (a slime from here in Michigan) is still encouraging parents to force marriage on their teens. The recent case of a father who forced his 15 year old to marry her 30+ year-old rapist due to a verse in Leviticus comes to mind as well, and an investigation into over 160 cases of coerced marriages amongst minors in New Jersey also is looming...several young adults asking for their marriages to be annulled due to the coercion. Check out sex and human trafficking crime statistics. It is shocking how much of this goes on in a supposedly "developed" nation.

 

I agree with Audrey. The forced marriage thing has not gone the way of the dodo.

[FaithManor]

So I don't think I understand AT I very well. I'm unfamiliar with the religion. And I've only seen the show a handful of times, but they seem to be pretty relationship focused as a family? I've seen the girls volunteering at the fire station, and each of them seems to have their own personality. I can understand belonging to a group like this is pretty frightening but I think they murmur be utterly controlled. Didn't one of the girls become a midwife? And I have to say, no offense to Jim Bob, but his wife is the brains of that show. Seems nice enough but I don't think he comes off as forceful, demanding our controlling. I suspect his wife gets everything done by gentle suggestion while he then thinks it is his idea.

 

I don't know.... As I said I haven't watched a lot but they just seem as though they are very connected to one another and the body language looks relaxed with solid eye contact, confident voices, etc. While I didn't know much of AT I and much of what you said caught me off guard, they just don't come off as cowed.

The girls are at the fire station because, as the parents explained early in the show's years, single adults and children in the family are not allowed to leave the home without an accountability partner. They also have the girls protect the boys from being "defrauded" by yelling NIKE "the family code word" whenever a female "dressing immodestly" comes into view so the boys know to look at the ground. Local newspapers reported that the girls' presence at the firehouse was a real problem because they hae no training, ie. are under foot.

 

This is characteristic of ATI teaching. Until marriage, adult children are to never be without a chaperone. It is why they do not work regular jobs. It is why Jill had to have a sister with her when she trained with a doula because again, not allowed out without a "buddy".

[TranquilMind]

Clearly you don't understand learned helplessness.

 

I hope Jinger does go where she wants and do her life her own way. I hope she does. I actually think Jill has the best chance so far of having a family her and Derrick's way. He does not appear to be a total nut job. And they went away, which puts them outside the immediate influence of Jim Boob. Maybe it is a good sign that Jinger's beau is not a sycophantic window-repair guy with twenty siblings.

 

Time will tell.

Well, you are right about that. Not a big proponent of assumed victimhood. I'm more an "Nothing is impossible to he who believes" type.

 

To assume the worst outcome for a 22 year old (as some seem to be, not you), seems preposterous to me.

 

Actually, that was a very helpful thought. I worry too much sometimes.

 

I agree. I also said time would tell. I know a very large family who were similar. They are all marrying and seem to have normal lives, and the oldest has a wife with her own business. I would not have expected that. The others are moving out, traveling, doing ministry, and working. I think a couple of unmarried daughters are home, but not all.

Edited June 21, 2016 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

You know, I'm sure we could find some blogs by people who have left ATI or similarly abusive cults (and other abusive situations). I've read some, for that matter, though I don't have the links to hand. They all reiterate, again and again, how hard it was to realize their situation was bad - or even that it was abnormal. How painful it was to leave. How difficult it was to start a new life for themselves.

Yeah, there are a number of them. Hmmm.

Edited June 21, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, there are a number of them. Hmmm.

 

And countless others who feel they can't leave. You're lucky if you've never been in this situation, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be callous to those who are, nor to continue putting words in other people's mouths, nor to be snotty to people who disagree with you. There's no call for that.

 

 

Well, you are right about that. Not a big proponent of assumed victimhood. I'm more an "all things are impossible to he who believes" type.

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means :P

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Tanaqui

[Mergath]

Many DO break away.

 

i guess I don't see this situation as already hopeless, as you apparently do. Give the girl some credit. Wait and see what she does. It's so offensive to write off a 22 year old because of issues in her family or with other siblings. You know absolutely nothing about what friends she may have it what goals she holds. Maybe she is doing exactly what she wants. Time will tell.

If we're still talking about Jana here, she's 26.

[TranquilMind]

And countless others who feel they can't leave. You're lucky if you've never been in this situation, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be callous to those who are, nor to continue putting words in other people's mouths, nor to be snotty to people who disagree with you. There's no call for that.

 

 

 

I don't think that word means what you think it means :P

Who is being rude here? I think you might want to re-read your posts and examine why you succumb to the urge to personally attack every time someone says something with which you find fault.

 

We were talking about Jinger. Remember? We will see how she turns out. I don't assume she is stuck. She will grow and change along the way.

 

Hope she has some friends who support her and think her views are valid, whatever she chooses.

[TranquilMind]

If we're still talking about Jana here, she's 26.

Last I read, she was working as a midwife assistant or something like that. Isn't she engaged?

[Mergath]

Last I read, she was working as a midwife assistant or something like that. Isn't she engaged?

According to google she was training to be a midwife but quit, and no, not engaged.

[TranquilMind]

According to google she was training to be a midwife but quit, and no, not engaged.

hmm. It showed up on my home page sometime back that she was.

 

Well, one of these days she will find a great guy, I am sure.

[Mergath]

hmm. It showed up on my home page sometime back that she was.

 

Well, one of these days she will find a great guy, I am sure.

Jill and Jessa both got married; maybe it was one of them?

[BlsdMama]

Well, one of these days she will find a great guy, I am sure.

I am a fan of courtship, but I think that term means different things to different people, or so I'm beginning to see that my definition of things, being from a pretty liberal family and I often don't see/realize the darker side of extreme conservatism... Some of these topics are still romantic to me, colored through my own life experiences.

 

But I want to gently point out, the problem I see in courtship is this very comment. It leads one to believe that some day things will be okay or turn out alright.... WHEN she's complete, when she gets a guy. :(

 

Like I said, we (our family) believe in the ideas behind courtship, that current dating methods are unhealthy, etc., But at fifteen we gave our daughter a ring, but we were very careful NOT to call it a purity ring. While we believe it is God's design to not have sex outside of marriage, her worth, her value is intrinsic, as a whole person created in the image of God and with a soul. We gave her a ruby ring because she is "worth more than rubies." -Whether or not a diamond ring ever replaces the ruby one, that isn't where her value lies.

 

I think this is my sticking point in these conversations. I think the Duggars value all their children which is why I'm generally pro Duggar, they seem like a strong family but who knows? So much is in the motivation..... But the comments that tend to sometimes show up in these topics really discuss how we value women. And, as Christ seemed to value women regardless of whether they were married and Paul even said it was good to remain unmarried, I do not understand why we define someone's life as doing well if they marry... There is some kind of underlying issue there that I can't quite put my finger on.

 

 

I apologize is I'm reading too much into your post but it seems like what we are really discussing here isn't the Duggars at all but more to whether or not this religion recognizes the wholeness of a woman as she is created, not just after she marries?

Edited June 21, 2016 by BlsdMama

[gardenmom5]

She is 21, I read.  She can do whatever the heck she wants. 

 

She is even older than I thought.  Most people do learn from the errors of those around them.  I think she will be even more careful. 

 

 

I'd like to think you are "merely" naive about what is involved for an abuse victim to escape in this situation.   However, you have a very long and vocal history of promoting this viewpoint - even for children/adults who were raised with an emotionally abusive and psychologically manipulative  controlling perpetrator.  callus is a  much kinder appellation than I would apply.

How lucky he got a university degree and a real job before realizing it was a sin. ;)

as an athlete, it begs the question how marketable of a degree it is. and if he's now following gothard, is he willing to use it?

 

I will try and be happy for her.  I hope he did not choose an extremely sheltered, brainwashed girl so that he could have a "helpmeet" that he could mold.  It's hard for me to figure out what a university educated, semi-pro athlete sees in such a sheltered girl who is, what, eight years younger than he is?   My dream is that he's at least fundie-lite, and lets Jinger pursue or even find out what her dreams are, and pursue them.  I do think it's good that he's not in Arkansas. 

 

I can't imagine jb approving anyone who would 'allow' any of that.

 

This might actually be the most callous thing I've ever heard. It's unfeeling, and shows an appalling ignorance of the dynamics of abuse. "Breaking away" isn't as easy as saying "Eff you, Mom and Dad!"

 

She has no college degree, she has minimal job skills, and frankly, I doubt her education really holds up to high school level. She has no real social net outside of her family, and those other people she has are generally enmeshed in the same cult. She has no money of her own.

 

Leaving probably means leaving not just Mom and Dad, but all her younger siblings - possibly forever. This is a real risk. And she probably *loves* her parents. Even children who have been beaten to the point of broken bones often do, and frequently don't realize (even in adulthood) exactly how badly they've been abused.

 

You say "abused wives break away", but many of them don't. And even those who do often take months or years to get to the point where they realize that not only must they leave, but it is possible to leave. Mental abuse takes its toll on your ability to function as an independent being.

 

stockholm syndrome . . . .

those who have such "callus" attitudes - are worse than not helpful.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Hope she has some friends who support her and think her views are valid, whatever she chooses.

And where would she find those friends?  With the supervision and control the parents have over their children, all friends would have to be approved by the parents.  It is highly unlikely for the parents to allow their children to associate with someone outside of their cult.   ETA:  including their adult children.  They are under their father's authority until they marry. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by dirty ethel rackham

[gardenmom5]

And where would she find those friends?  With the supervision and control the parents have over their children, all friends would have to be approved by the parents.  It is highly unlikely for the parents to allow their children to associate with someone outside of their cult.   ETA:  including their adult children.  They are under their father's authority until they marry. 

 

seeing jb - i'd wager  he's still "influencing" his married children to do what *he* wants them to do.  this stuff can be incredibly subtle and very very hard to break away from.  first, they have to recognize something is wrong - and all  their "still submitting' siblings will tell them they're imagining things and undermine any desire to think for themselves.

[Tanaqui]

Who is being rude here?

 

You are, TranquilMind. It's difficult to read "Hmmmmm" in anything other than a condescending tone. It is impossible to read you putting words in other people's mouths - the same words that you already have been told are false - without getting upset.

 

Nobody here has twisted your words and claimed you said something contrary to what you did say. It would be nice if you showed the rest of us the same courtesy.

[katilac]

Well, if he really is a pro soccer player,  

 

He's not a soccer player anymore, he is the pastor of a small church "plant" in Laredo, Texas. He was a pro player in the equivalent of baseball's minor league (so not big money). 

 

I'm pretty sure only for women. :lol:  I could always sort the craziest from the fairly normal families at my church camp based who was scandalized by me playing ball.  Though it was always fun to join the pick up games of the boys at camp and see who was most butt hurt that (depending on the sport) my hook shot or batting stance/swing bested most or all of the boys.  I had to find my entertainment where I could there.   :coolgleamA:

 

No, they are against team sports for both males and females. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I am a fan of courtship, but I think that term means different things to different people, or so I'm beginning to see that my definition of things, being from a pretty liberal family and I often don't see/realize the darker side of extreme conservatism... Some of these topics are still romantic to me, colored through my own life experiences.

 

But I want to gently point out, the problem I see in courtship is this very comment. It leads one to believe that some day things will be okay or turn out alright.... WHEN she's complete, when she gets a guy. :(

 

Like I said, we (our family) believe in the ideas behind courtship, that current dating methods are unhealthy, etc., But at fifteen we gave our daughter a ring, but we were very careful NOT to call it a purity ring. While we believe it is God's design to not have sex outside of marriage, her worth, her value is intrinsic, as a whole person created in the image of God and with a soul. We gave her a ruby ring because she is "worth more than rubies." -Whether or not a diamond ring ever replaces the ruby one, that isn't where her value lies.

 

I think this is my sticking point in these conversations. I think the Duggars value all their children which is why I'm generally pro Duggar, they seem like a strong family but who knows? So much is in the motivation..... But the comments that tend to sometimes show up in these topics really discuss how we value women. And, as Christ seemed to value women regardless of whether they were married and Paul even said it was good to remain unmarried, I do not understand why we define someone's life as doing well if they marry... There is some kind of underlying issue there that I can't quite put my finger on.

 

 

I apologize is I'm reading too much into your post but it seems like what we are really discussing here isn't the Duggars at all but more to whether or not this religion recognizes the wholeness of a woman as she is created, not just after she marries?

The Duggars seem like a strong family?

Maybe it is just me, but I don't think parents who allow a son to prey on other children to be part of a string family unit.

[gardenmom5]

  I think the Duggars value all their children which is why I'm generally pro Duggar, they seem like a strong family but who knows? So much is in the motivation.....

 

I am saying this as a practicing Christian woman, where my faith permeates every aspect of my life.

 

how familiar are you with psychological manipulative control?  pavlov's dog?  where *appearance* of something, trumps all.  (not the substance of the thing, but the APPEARANCE of having it).  

 

the duggars are all about appearance.  there is "no there", there.  M and her "she didn't mean that" . . . made me want to be physically ill. my grandmother used it. all. the. time.  it is abusive.  it is controlling, it is about appearance, the goal to put a good visage on the controlling person.   to be blunt. . . it's evil.

 

they *deliberately* keep their children uneducated and socially isolated, lest they have a thought of their own. so jb and m will have control.  they *deliberately* send the message totheir children they have to do what *THEY* say, or God will d*mn them  to hell.  (since when do gothard and his followers counsel God?  'cause they *think* they do! newsflash - they don't.)

 

my grandmother wasn't gothard, but she did come out of that rural Midwestern use-religion-as-a-means-of-control mentality that probably gave rise to gothard.  and everything is about appearance, and what other people think of you.

 

it's sick, twisted, and very destructive.

[gardenmom5]

He's not a soccer player anymore, he is the pastor of a small church "plant" in Laredo, Texas. He was a pro player in the equivalent of baseball's minor league (so not big money). 

 

 

 

what is a "church plant"?

 

even a pro soccer player in the US will not make nearly as much money as an average pro-baseball player.  he probably wasn't making much at all.  baseball players on farm teams hardly make anything - and they probably make more than the equivalent of a 'minor soccer team'.

[FaithManor]

He's not a soccer player anymore, he is the pastor of a small church "plant" in Laredo, Texas. He was a pro player in the equivalent of baseball's minor league (so not big money).

 

No, they are against team sports for both males and females.

Well, BUMMER! No hope of escaping JB through the influence of his career.

[BlsdMama]

I am saying this as a practicing Christian woman, where my faith permeates every aspect of my life.

 

how familiar are you with psychological manipulative control? pavlov's dog? where *appearance* of something, trumps all. .

I'm not familiar with it. I grew up in a pretty liberal household where religion was something you practiced in Sunday mornings and even that wasn't until I was in high school. My house was strongly matriarch run and they didn't believe in sheltering children AT ALL, much to my own personal damage so I would have liked a little shelter.

[FaithManor]

The Duggars seem like a strong family?

Maybe it is just me, but I don't think parents who allow a son to prey on other children to be part of a string family unit.

Thank you.

 

Josh molests two sisters. They tell mom and dad. Nothing is done.

He does it again, more sisters, including the then five year old. They make him confess his sin to a police officer on suspension pending investigation for child porn who had CONFESSED to the men in the church already, JB being one of the eldership! He "counsels" with the pervert. Same man sentenced to 56 years shortly after the "counseling" took place. Again no attempt to get real help. No professional counseling for the girls by parental admission.

 

More incidents, and Josh is shipped off to work with a contractor friend for a few months.

 

No police, no therapy by licensed professionals, no nothing. The girls were sent to ATI camp for counseling. Gothard's sex abuse counseling material requires victims to accept responsibility for sex assaults because "men can't help themselves" and says they must ask the perp for forgiveness for not being modest enough, or being without chaperone, or for leading on, or giving the wrong impression, or whatever trumped up crap the perp claims caused him to sin. That sick and twisted camp is right here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and VERY well known for its abusive tactics which include "isolation therapy" , ie solitary confinement until the young lady confesses her sin, and food deprivation as well, along with personal counseling with BG himself if the young lady is his type which includes medium height, thin, brown wavy or curly hair that is worn long with bangs and never pulled up, and pink eye shadow or similar pastel shade because Bg has a thing for pastel eye shadow and pink is his favorite. In his "wisdom booklets", tells girls to color their hair brown and perm it if necessary in order to be the most attractive.

 

When social services came to talk to the Duggars after the Oprah report, they hid the kids. When they were served a subpoena to produce Josh, they sent him to BG's boy camp in Texas. Since the statute of limitations for a full investigation had expired, the prosecutor did not pursue charges for failure to comply.

 

Josh then gets caught in the Ashley Madison mess, and shows his perverted side yet again. What do they do? Take him to a "camp" run by a church organization founded by Jack Hyles - a man who during his ministry used church funds to keep his mistress in style for morw than fifteen years and then later got in a heap of trouble for trying to coerce a family in the church to NOT report the violent rape of their special needs daughter by one of the elders, a buddy of JH's, followed by his unwavering support for his son-in-law who was convicted as a youth pastor of statutory rape with one of the girls in the youth group and taking her across state lines for an abortion. All well known facts within ATI and IFB circles. And this is where poor little joshie is sent for "counseling".

 

And when one of Anna's married siblings who is no longer ATI wanted to come get her and the kids and take them home, away from the crazy, JB took her and the children to their vacation cabin and her family was allowed no contact according to Anna's siblings.

 

If this is "strong" and "family focused" no thanks.

[MyLittleBears]

Yes, it is confirmed. They have been spokeperson's for his curriculum for children as well as his ATI materials. They send their kids to his "boot camps". Josh went more than once, and so have Jana and Jinger. These are confirmed facts.

 

They have also preached strict adherence to many ATI directives, and the girls have interned during high school with BG himself. The girls' camp is here in Michigan. Many, many locals in the town have met the girls in the company of BG who prior to his fourth sex scandal (there were problems with him in the 70's, again in the 80's, and the 90's and early 2000's before the recent lawsuit) spent a lot of time at the girls' camp.

 

 

Well yikes! I had no idea. I guess must have been sleeping under a rock!

[LuvToRead]

When you are 22, you can do something about it. Abused wives break away; so can she, if it is important enough.

 

One of my best friends was in an abusive marriage.  I can't even find the words to describe how this comment makes me feel. 

[EmseB]

I want to say there are people who are very into ATI and all it entails a la the Duggars.

 

However, there were and are a lot of families who got in with good intentions regarding homeschooling and family life and then nope'd out of there after actually attending a conference or coming up against some of the stricter legalism and requirements. I know many more of the latter because I know a lot of families who were homeschooling back when it wasn't what it is now and saw ATI as a great support network and didn't realize or never encountered the true gothard mentality because really they just wanted a group to help them with their new, very non-mainstream choice. I know people who were still damaged by the interactions and social cliques they encountered through ATI, but I also know their families weren't in it for some sinister reasoning of controlling their kids or being part of a cult. IOW, I know a lot of former ATI'ers and they are mostly "normal" people. I even know people who use the curriculum now who have no idea about all the baggage. So I think there's a vast range of what one might encounter when they come across ATI.

[MyLittleBears]

Thank you.

 

Josh molests two sisters. They tell mom and dad. Nothing is done.

He does it again, more sisters, including the then five year old. They make him confess his sin to a police officer on suspension pending investigation for child porn who had CONFESSED to the men in the church already, JB being one of the eldership! He "counsels" with the pervert. Same man sentenced to 56 years shortly after the "counseling" took place. Again no attempt to get real help. No professional counseling for the girls by parental admission.

 

More incidents, and Josh is shipped off to work with a contractor friend for a few months.

 

No police, no therapy by licensed professionals, no nothing. The girls were sent to ATI camp for counseling. Gothard's sex abuse counseling material requires victims to accept responsibility for sex assaults because "men can't help themselves" and says they must ask the perp for forgiveness for not being modest enough, or being without chaperone, or for leading on, or giving the wrong impression, or whatever trumped up crap the perp claims caused him to sin. That sick and twisted camp is right here in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and VERY well known for its abusive tactics which include "isolation therapy" , ie solitary confinement until the young lady confesses her sin, and food deprivation as well, along with personal counseling with BG himself if the young lady is his type which includes medium height, thin, brown wavy or curly hair that is worn long with bangs and never pulled up, and pink eye shadow or similar pastel shade because Bg has a thing for pastel eye shadow and pink is his favorite. In his "wisdom booklets", tells girls to color their hair brown and perm it if necessary in order to be the most attractive.

 

When social services came to talk to the Duggars after the Oprah report, they hid the kids. When they were served a subpoena to produce Josh, they sent him to BG's boy camp in Texas. Since the statute of limitations for a full investigation had expired, the prosecutor did not pursue charges for failure to comply.

 

Josh then gets caught in the Ashley Madison mess, and shows his perverted side yet again. What do they do? Take him to a "camp" run by a church organization founded by Jack Hyles - a man who during his ministry used church funds to keep his mistress in style for morw than fifteen years and then later got in a heap of trouble for trying to coerce a family in the church to NOT report the violent rape of their special needs daughter by one of the elders, a buddy of JH's, followed by his unwavering support for his son-in-law who was convicted as a youth pastor of statutory rape with one of the girls in the youth group and taking her across state lines for an abortion. All well known facts within ATI and IFB circles. And this is where poor little joshie is sent for "counseling".

 

And when one of Anna's married siblings who is no longer ATI wanted to come get her and the kids and take them home, away from the crazy, JB took her and the children to their vacation cabin and her family was allowed no contact according to Anna's siblings.

 

If this is "strong" and "family focused" no thanks.

 

 

OK this is one of creepiest things I think I've ever heard. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by MyLittleBears