Indulging my petty side: Jinger Duggar has a boyfriend.

[Guest]

I don't remember all the details, but it was several years before it came out on the mainstream media. Someone there knew about the sexual abuse Josh inflicted on his sisters, and they knew about it being reported to the police, and they knew about how it was hushed up. It was written out in full detail on some sort of message board, if I recall. I remember reading it and thinking there was NO WAY that was true, it was just some internet troll making things up, etc. Years later it ALL turned out to be true. Some people surmised that it was the cousin Amy who was posting it. Not sure about all that though. So yeah, people WERE following up on it. It was hushed up. Thankfully the truth finally did come out.

I think this is the post you are referring to- back from 2007.

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

[TranquilMind]

And what percentage of abuse survivors do you think those full shelters represent?

 

When you say things like this, it sounds like "bootstraps", like "only stupid, weak people stay", like "there's no reason to stay unless you like it". Maybe that's not what you intend, but that's how it sounds.

 

If you ever evaluated anything I said accurately, it would be truly shocking.  You are 100% wrong in your conclusion, as usual.

 

Please state what the percentage of abuse survivors in shelters are.  You don't know either.  Some get out.  Some don't, for various reasons. 

 

What we really need to do is teach people how to read danger signals earlier.  Way earlier, as in when getting to know each other, but I digress. 

 

[MegP]

I am not saying that the tomato staking (keeping your kids close) is bad in any way. But go back and read the quotes I posted. Spanking a child for wiggling and having a two hour  outlasting session with a toddler, where you are periodically spanking over the course of two hours? Spanking a child or putting her in the corner for not being perfectly happy (ie , for being sad or upset that she is unable to draw a picture)??? What does that kind of parenting do a a child long term? And yes, she does speak about getting together with other families, but they must be "like minded" and the children (and teens) must be supervised. The kids/ teens are not allowed to have friends that they choose and are not allowed to get together with other teens without both families being present.

[musicianmom]

Re: the RGT message board. It wasn't the child-rearing tactics where things got really ugly on that board, but the wifely submission threads which made me nearly ill and finally drove me away from the board. I don't know if it's okay for me to share examples or not, since it's been nearly 10 years, but some stories really stuck out to me and horrify me to this day.

 

 

[Guest]

I think this is the post you are referring to- back from 2007.

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

I remember reading that when the news broke of the molestation. "alice" obviously did know the truth, years before it went to the media. It's just too bad that "Alice" has such poor rhetoric skills, because I would not have believed her, either, had I seen it in 2007. i find myself mentally editing her posts so it would be more effective. ;)

[MegP]

Re: the RGT message board. It wasn't the child-rearing tactics where things got really ugly on that board, but the wifely submission threads which made me nearly ill and finally drove me away from the board. I don't know if it's okay for me to share examples or not, since it's been nearly 10 years, but some stories really stuck out to me and horrify me to this day.

 

I think it was both-the child rearing tactics  AND the submission threads that were awful.

 

I think  it would be fine to share examples (without names of course)

 

Women were in abusive marriages and posted there and were told to "just try harder" and "give him more TEA" and "work harder to please him."

[Guest]

I think this is the post you are referring to- back from 2007.

 

http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114

Yes! That's the one. So I guess that wasn't from FreeJinger after all. Mea culpa. Eta: The name "Alice" is who brought it to light.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Kinsa

[musicianmom]

I think it was both-the child rearing tactics  AND the submission threads that were awful.

 

I think  it would be fine to share examples (without names of course)

 

Women were in abusive marriages and posted there and were told to "just try harder" and "give him more TEA" and "work harder to please him."

 

I saw the following advice given:

 

1. That large sum of money you inherited that your perpetually unemployed husband wants you to give away because his ego can't handle you supporting the family? Go ahead and give it away. Living out of your van and washing your clothes in the river will be a grand adventure for the kids.

 

2. Your husband wants to you get a perm so your hair looks like it did when you first met, but he wants you to do it on the cheap and buy hair products off the dollar aisle? Go ahead and do it, he'll figure it out when it doesn't look like he expected. Or ask your parents to buy you expensive hair products.

 

3. You have 3 toddlers and your husband just quit his job and expects you to work to support the family? Don't even argue with him. Just start looking for jobs.

 

And then there were the challenges. Let's see if everyone can do this for a whole month! Meet hubby at the door with his favorite drink every night when he comes home, post something great that you love about your husband on the board every day, and of course initiate TeA every night! Late pregnancy is NO excuse! 

[eternalsummer]

I think part of the disconnect with both the Duggars and the Raising Godly Tomatoes lady is that what you see, and are attracted to, is built on a foundation that you both cannot easily see and absolutely would not tolerate and find abhorrent.

 

So for the Duggars, they look happy, cohesive, friendly, they have a ton of kids and it more or less works (on the surface), etc.  For the Godly Tomatoes lady and her forums, it seems like they have these kids and methods that work - just keep them near you, be conscientious, look what a lovely well behaved large family we have, etc.

 

Both of them are built on a different foundation than what you see on TV or on the forums, and that foundation is physical abuse.  

 

The Duggars abused their kids as babies.  Full stop.

 

The Godly Tomatoes lady wrote a book in which she advocated abuse.  Full stop.  I find it highly likely she abused her children (why would you write a book to advocate things you never do or did?) but at least we know she told other people to abuse their kids.

 

 

Both the Duggars and the RGT lady may very well have good things to offer - the Duggars present to America the idea that you can have a lot of kids, homeschool them, and look respectable; the RGT lady had all the advice she evidently gave through her forums - both those things are based on abhorrent, abusive, evil practices.

 

So I don't trust any of it.  Turns out conservatives and Christians are just as corruptible as liberals and atheists.  People are people.

[TranquilMind]

I think part of the disconnect with both the Duggars and the Raising Godly Tomatoes lady is that what you see, and are attracted to, is built on a foundation that you both cannot easily see and absolutely would not tolerate and find abhorrent.

 

So for the Duggars, they look happy, cohesive, friendly, they have a ton of kids and it more or less works (on the surface), etc.  For the Godly Tomatoes lady and her forums, it seems like they have these kids and methods that work - just keep them near you, be conscientious, look what a lovely well behaved large family we have, etc.

 

Both of them are built on a different foundation than what you see on TV or on the forums, and that foundation is physical abuse.  

 

The Duggars abused their kids as babies.  Full stop.

 

The Godly Tomatoes lady wrote a book in which she advocated abuse.  Full stop.  I find it highly likely she abused her children (why would you write a book to advocate things you never do or did?) but at least we know she told other people to abuse their kids.

 

 

Both the Duggars and the RGT lady may very well have good things to offer - the Duggars present to America the idea that you can have a lot of kids, homeschool them, and look respectable; the RGT lady had all the advice she evidently gave through her forums - both those things are based on abhorrent, abusive, evil practices.

 

So I don't trust any of it.  Turns out conservatives and Christians are just as corruptible as liberals and atheists.  People are people.

The Duggars and the Godly tomatoes family both abused their kids?  Were any arrests made?  I didn't hear about that.

[Guest]

I think the spanking is what she is referring to.

[eternalsummer]

Perhaps interpretations differ?  I figured hitting a baby with a ruler was pretty universally accepted as abuse on these forums.  I also figured paddling a child for minor fidgeting, repeatedly was universally accepted as abuse here.

 

If not, well, jeez.

[TranquilMind]

I remember reading that when the news broke of the molestation. "alice" obviously did know the truth, years before it went to the media. It's just too bad that "Alice" has such poor rhetoric skills, because I would not have believed her, either, had I seen it in 2007. i find myself mentally editing her posts so it would be more effective. ;)

 

That's really sad.  I wonder why it took the Arkansas CPS so long to do anything. 

 

It certainly does sound like an insider, given that it was 2007.  I wonder who she was. 

 

[FaithManor]

That's really sad. I wonder why it took the Arkansas CPS so long to do anything.

 

It certainly does sound like an insider, given that it was 2007. I wonder who she was.

 

It took that long because the Duggar parents version of reporting it to "police" was to take Josh to an on administrative leave police officer being investigated for child porn who had recently admitted his problem to the elders, of which Jimdoob was one, and begged forgiveness. This was their version of calling for help. Alice, at the time, attended the church so was in the know about the slimey cop. This officer was later sentenced to 56 years in prison, and of course he had never filed a report. CPS was unaware.

 

The police report generated after the Oprah group called it in, indicated that the time elapsed to investigate was too great by law for charges to be levied or for CPS to intervene. CPS was sent to do a well child check, ie. interview the victims and Josh. The Duggars refused to cooperate and produce the kids/adults but since no charges could be made anyway, nothing was done about the failure to cooperate. The report which was linked here on the forum back when the Ashley Madison scandal broke gave a general outline of events.

[MercyA]

A dear friend from high school got out. A girl. When she turned 18, she had yet never been allowed even inside a grocery store or a pharmacy. Actually, she had never been to a store period. Her parents were determined to keep her completely isolated until they could arrange a marriage with another ATI family. 

 

As a matter of fact, parents are encouraged to have their kids read wisdom booklets and NOT the Bible. When older, the focus is on OT and not NT. Jesus is kind of side bar...BG's side kick, like he is"Batman", and Jesus is "Robin." Scary stuff.

 

And then the father in any family is the "high priest" so pretty much no one comes to god except through their physical father.

 

This belief is paramount to the Doug Phillips former Vision Forum Ministries cult. Women and girls could not take communion unless their fathers or husbands were present to serve it to them. A grown woman could take if if her five year old son was there to serve it to her even if he was not considered by the eldership to be old enough to take communion himself.

 

Actually, in the ATI paradigm, parents are encourage to NOT look to scripture for help with parenting and marriage. 

 

All of this is absolutely horrifying to me, Faith. I knew nothing about ATI when I joined this forum, and I want to thank you for being a voice for truth on this subject. "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them." I do remember looking briefly at ATI's website after seeing the Duggars' show a few times years ago. I instinctively knew it wasn't for us. I felt a similar (but probably even stronger aversion) when flipping through a Vision Forum catalog.

 

Fidgeting quote--taken from this link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php

 

Self-Control

Philana: I'm trying to homeschool a child who fidgets � incessantly. He�s not an unusually hyper-active child in general, he just doesn�t seem to be using any self-control in during school time. 

 

He is supposed to be writing, and I notice he is messing with his pencil sharpener. I tell him to put it down. He does, and then two minutes later, he is tapping the pencil on his forehead or gently poking it into his ear. I tell him to stop. In a few minutes he is pushing against the computer desk door, a no-no. I say again to stop. Meanwhile he is perpetually wiggling in his chair, often falling onto the floor. Soon, he's messing with the pencil sharpener again. Should I be endlessly reminding him all day to stop? Should I swat? What?

 

Elizabeth: First, you must seat this child right next to you while you are schooling, not across the table. Lay your paddle on the table between you and he as a visual aid. Begin like this:

 

Mom: Do you see this paddle?

Child: Yes.

Mom: I'm tired of reminding you not to touch, fidget, wiggle, or to rock in your chair. From now on, I'm going to use the paddle to help you remember. Do you understand me?

Child: Yes Mom.

Mom: What are some of the things I'm always telling you not to do?

Child: Playing with my eraser?

Mom: Yes. What else?

Child: Getting off my chair?

Mom: Yes. What else?

Child: Scribbling instead of doing my math?

Mom: Yes, and I'm sure you can think of a lot of other things, so I'm not going to remind you. I'm just going to use the paddle. Do you understand me?

Child: Yes.

(Two minutes later child begins rocking in his chair.)

Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Now sit back down and go back to your work.

(Three minutes later child begins to poke his pencil through his buttonhole.)

Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Sit down and start working.

(Five minutes later child begins tapping the table leg with his foot.)

Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT! SWAT!) Sit down and work.

 

As soon as he realizes that he controls whether or not he gets a swat, he will start improving. If he laughs, or exhibits a bad attitude, apply an "I Mean Business" spanking. Remember, this will not work if you are not being very consistent, so you MUST train yourself to notice every little thing. Decide what degree of fidgeting is acceptable, taking into consideration the personality of your child, then correct for everything that is excessive. He is probably not even aware of his excessive movements and he needs you to bring them to his attention, and insist he control them. 

 

And being aroused, He rebuked the wind and said to the sea, "Hush, be still." And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm.

- Mark 4:39

 

This really upsets me and is so incredibly sad. Spanking a little boy for rocking in his chair?  :mad: It's probably soothing for his sensory system and HELPS him focus. Grrr.

Edited June 23, 2016 by MercyA

[Guest]

Perhaps interpretations differ? I figured hitting a baby with a ruler was pretty universally accepted as abuse on these forums. I also figured paddling a child for minor fidgeting, repeatedly was universally accepted as abuse here.

 

If not, well, jeez.

I don't believe that is anywhere in the book - it's been quite awhile since I read it. She advocates swats as needed for the preschool crowd, sometimes toddlers, but the basic principles work great even with zero physical discipline. A lot of the parents I've discussed it with have foster kids and cannot spank - the value is primarily in the basic philosophy of heading off problems before they need correcting and dealing with the attitudes instead of just due symptoms in the child's actions.

 

We don't blanket train or anything like that and I can't speak to it, but outside of spanking I don't recall anything eyebrow raising in the text. I could have blocked it out or forgotten in intervening years though.

[Guest]

All of this is absolutely horrifying to me, Faith. I knew nothing about ATI when I joined this forum, and I want to thank you for being a voice for truth on this subject. "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them." I do remember looking briefly at ATI's website after seeing the Duggar's show a few times years ago. I instinctively knew it wasn't for us. I felt a similar (but probably even stronger aversion) when flipping through a Vision Forum catalog.

 

 

 

This really upsets me and is so incredibly sad. Spanking a little boy for rocking in his chair? :mad: It's probably soothing for his sensory system and HELPS him focus. Grrr.

I know. It makes me feel like I've been punched in the gut. My son with special needs has always been a "rocker". And know what? He wasn't diagnosed with intellectual disability until he was 8 years old. Eight! I can't imagine having physically hurt him before we knew about his permanent disability because he rocks. He's such a precious, sweet, sensitive boy. And he is much loved. I'm so glad he was born into our family and not into that family. :(

Edited June 21, 2016 by Kinsa

[Tanaqui]

If you ever evaluated anything I said accurately, it would be truly shocking.  You are 100% wrong in your conclusion, as usual.

 

I'm 100% wrong that this is what those words sound like to me - and probably to other people, considering I got upvoted? How can I be wrong about what they sound like to me?

 

I have no idea what you think, and wouldn't dream of speculating. Only you know what goes on deep down in your heart. All I know is what I hear, and that's all I said. If this isn't what you mean, maybe you should rephrase it, because you're not communicating what you do mean very well.

 

What we really need to do is teach people how to read danger signals earlier.  Way earlier, as in when getting to know each other, but I digress.

 

Which doesn't help children of abusive parents, such as the Duggars. Those kids have it a lot harder in many ways than abused domestic partners, because they grew up like this. They have no reliable barometer for normal, healthy relationships.

 

I think the spanking is what she is referring to.

 

Also, they used to promote the Pearls on their website and talk about very Pearl-ish things like blanket training, which certainly does sound like they went beyond "normal" spanking* and into what just about everybody would refer to as child beating.

 

* Putting aside the question of whether or not spanking is inherently abusive for now, because that's not a fun derail at all.

 

Yes! That's the one. So I guess that wasn't from FreeJinger after all. Mea culpa. Eta: The name "Alice" is who brought it to light.

 

As I recall, FreeJinger discussed it at the time and ultimately rejected it as a little implausible. They speculated that Josh had done *something* "sinful" sexually, but thought it was more along the lines of normal teenage behavior.

[Rosie_0801]

 

What we really need to do is teach people how to read danger signals earlier.  Way earlier, as in when getting to know each other, but I digress. 

 

 

Read up on covert narcissism some time.

 

 

The Duggars and the Godly tomatoes family both abused their kids?  Were any arrests made?  I didn't hear about that.

 

Most forms of abuse are legal.

[FaithManor]

MercyA, I get it. Some of this abusive crud they peddle makes me want to vomit

Unfortunately, it often finds fruit among parents who are distraught by serious problems in their homes and RELIEF a godly expert has put forth a formula for solving it. It takea root during a terribly vulnerable time in their lives. But that is how cults proliferate.

 

Having been on the receiving end of this kind of abuse for only a short while and knowing how it affected me, I just won't be silent about this kind of teaching. It is an abomination for certain.

[Tanaqui]

Read up on covert narcissism some time.

 

That's a rabbit hole it's hard to get out of. You start reading these stories and you just keep on reading.

 

Most forms of abuse are legal.

 

Especially in the US. Even physical abuse, which you'd think is the most obvious to stop because it's so visible - people can do a lot to physically harm their kids without anybody caring. (And emotional abuse is worse. Sticks and stones might break your bones, but words can make you feel like you deserved it. Darn hard to prove, though, and mostly legal everywhere in the country.)

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Tanaqui

[FaithManor]

Parental rights in America. Smacking your baby's legs with a ruler is not necessarily illegal. Lots of forms of abuse are legal. While Josh's offenses were illegal, they were not reported before the Arkansas statute expired.

 

The girl could sue Josh in civil court for damages, but since daddybob holds the purse strings, it is highly unlikely.

[MegP]

I bet the teens/adults who were raised the "tomatoes" way have some real struggles and problems. I am sure it does some real damage to never be  allowed to have/show any "negative" emotions such as sadness or anger or frustration...and not allowed to spend time with peers unless supervised by a parent....and belittled like that example of the child who was fidgeting. :(
 

[TranquilMind]

It took that long because the Duggar parents version of reporting it to "police" was to take Josh to an on administrative leave police officer being investigated for child porn who had recently admitted his problem to the elders, of which Jimdoob was one, and begged forgiveness. This was their version of calling for help. Alice, at the time, attended the church so was in the know about the slimey cop. This officer was later sentenced to 56 years in prison, and of course he had never filed a report. CPS was unaware.

 

The police report generated after the Oprah group called it in, indicated that the time elapsed to investigate was too great by law for charges to be levied or for CPS to intervene. CPS was sent to do a well child check, ie. interview the victims and Josh. The Duggars refused to cooperate and produce the kids/adults but since no charges could be made anyway, nothing was done about the failure to cooperate. The report which was linked here on the forum back when the Ashley Madison scandal broke gave a general outline of events.

 

I see.  I will take a look at that.

 

They are not required to cooperate with CPS and few do without a warrant.  FYI

[FaithManor]

I see. I will take a look at that.

 

They are not required to cooperate with CPS and few do without a warrant. FYI

It differa by state. In some locales failure to cooperate even if charges are not pending is at least a misdemeanor. I do not know the particulars of Arkansas law.

[MegP]

 

 

 

 

All of this is absolutely horrifying to me, Faith. I knew nothing about ATI when I joined this forum, and I want to thank you for being a voice for truth on this subject. "Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them." I do remember looking briefly at ATI's website after seeing the Duggars' show a few times years ago. I instinctively knew it wasn't for us. I felt a similar (but probably even stronger aversion) when flipping through a Vision Forum catalog.

 

 

This really upsets me and is so incredibly sad. Spanking a little boy for rocking in his chair?  :mad: It's probably soothing for his sensory system and HELPS him focus. Grrr.

 

 

How do they even conclude that it is "sinful" to fidget or rock in a chair?? What Bible verse is that supposedly based on??

[TranquilMind]

It differa by state. In some locales failure to cooperate even if charges are not pending is at least a misdemeanor. I do not know the particulars of Arkansas law.

 

No, it does not differ by state and it is not a crime anywhere to disallow CPS entry into your home without a warrant or consent or exigent circumstances (during commission of a crime, for example). 

 

This is Constitutional law. 

[FaithManor]

How do they even conclude that it is "sinful" to fidget or rock in a chair? What Bible verse is that supposedly based on??

It isn't supportable so my guess is that the label of "sin" is placed on all imperfectness and anything that annoys the parent. Edited June 21, 2016 by FaithManor

[TranquilMind]

 

Read up on covert narcissism some time.

 

 

I just did, at your suggestion.

 

Here is what I found: 

 

He is plagued by feelings of unworthiness and shame as he is unable to attain his goals, but he keeps that fact hidden.  Probably because of his self-doubts, he does not seek affirmation from others.  Because of his fear of exposure he is unlikely to seek out appropriate friends, but is more likely to surround himself with inferior types.  He will admire people who have high accomplishments; however he will secretly envy them, and hold strong feelings of resentment.  He is more likely to hide himself away, and get little credit for his achievements.  His deportment is modest, shy, inhibited, shame-prone, and retiring.  He is hypervigilant to humiliation and rejection.  He has a marked propensity towards feeling ashamed.  He is on a relentless search for glory and power (often through his children or other family members), and is very sensitive to criticism and failure.  He has an inability to depend or trust on others, and shows irreverence towards authority.  He has an inability to see his partner or family as separate individuals with their own interests, rights or values.  He shows a genuine inability to comprehend the incest taboo.  Because he has difficulties in keeping himself interested and entertained, he is prone to depression.  The covert form of narcissism is reflected as hypersensitivity.  However, it seems that the covert narcissist fits into everyday society better than the overt variety.

 

I'm flummoxed at the implied suggestion that these traits cannot be determined at all when you get to know someone.  I think much would be blatantly obvious in a fairly short time.    I bolded all the things that would give any rational person pause. 

 

I find it hard to believe an Academy award winning actor could fool anyone in an intimate relationship (sure, maybe you could fool Grandma you see once a year or your coworker) in the long run. 

[musicianmom]

How do they even conclude that it is "sinful" to fidget or rock in a chair?? What Bible verse is that supposedly based on??

 

It's all about obedience. If the child is fidgeting, that's one thing. It's when the parent tells the child not to fidget and the child does it anyway that disobedience (and therefore sin) comes into play. Developmental appropriate behavior is not a consideration.

[Rosie_0801]

I'm flummoxed at the implied suggestion that these traits cannot be determined at all when you get to know someone.  I think much would be blatantly obvious in a fairly short time.    I bolded all the things that would give any rational person pause. 

 

I find it hard to believe an Academy award winning actor could fool anyone in an intimate relationship (sure, maybe you could fool Grandma you see once a year or your coworker) in the long run. 

 

I can cope with you having that low an opinion of me, lol.

 

But consider- how long does it take to get to know a highly skilled liar? 

 

 

Articles on covert narcissism are written by people a long time later. And they are not backed up by the establishment. Covert narcissism is not an official illness and therefore does not officially exist.

[TranquilMind]

I can cope with you having that low an opinion of me, lol.

 

But consider- how long does it take to get to know a highly skilled liar? 

 

 

Articles on covert narcissism are written by people a long time later. And they are not backed up by the establishment. Covert narcissism is not an official illness and therefore does not officially exist.

 

What?  I don't have a low opinion of you?  I think you are a lovely person, actually.

 

If you are more comfortable with me saying that I think many of those traits "would give anyone pause", then fine.  

ETA:  I personally would be gone at the first hint of "doesn't understand the taboo on incest".  :0

Edited June 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[gardenmom5]

I agree. I actively push my kids out of the nest. That's my job! And I don't want them dependent on me forever.

 

dd has joked about how I was the mamma eagle.  eagles make their nests very soft, and when it's time for the fledlings to fly - they make them *very* uncomfortable - with sticks poking inwards.

 

Calloused.  And no, I am not.  I am realistic though.  I do know that people can break out of things they don't want to continue and I never assume everyone is a helpless victim of circumstances forever. 

 

The bolded is just ridiculous.  You don't know where I come from, what I have overcome, and what I have seen overcome by others.

 

 

 

I have read many many many comments by you on the subject of abuse over the years. - which I've repeatedly found  profoundly lacking in compassion for abuse victims.  I've also read many of your vague claims of "having been there" - which makes your repeated and profound lack  of compassion for abuse victims even more appalling. 

 

you claim to have compassion.  well, no one can see any.

 

I know. It makes me feel like I've been punched in the gut. My son with special needs has always been a "rocker". And know what? He wasn't diagnosed with intellectual disability until he was 8 years old. Eight! I can't imagine having physically hurt him before we knew about his permanent disability because he rocks. He's such a precious, sweet, sensitive boy. And he is much loved. I'm so glad he was born into our family and not into that family. :(

 

I have similar with dudeling - betimes I have shuddered in horror to think what his life could have been like with most anyone else for his mother.  I took so much flak for NOT "disciplining" him for his (autism spectrum disorder) behavior.  I was repeatedly blamed for being "his problem".

uh, no.  I've worked hard to find things that have helped him, and he has made great progress. (still has challenges, but amazing progress.)

[FaithManor]

What? I don't have a low opinion of you? I think you are a lovely person, actually.

 

If you are more comfortable with me saying that I think many of those traits "would give anyone pause", then fine.

ETA: I personally would be gone at the first hint of "doesn't understand the taboo on incest". :0

Tranquil, you are probably a strong person raised without a lot of mind games. You may have an excellent BS meter as my dear nephew would say. But many people due to emotional trauma and abuse do not have a good BS counter and aren't as likely to catch the red flags.

 

Legalism, low self esteem, trauma, lifelong manipulation, parental domination, all these things dull the senses im these matters. It is one reason abuse is sometimes generational because the "creep o meter" isn't tripped. As for the really professional liars, even the best of creep o alarms may nor go off. The sociopathic ones can be uber hard to catch. My own meter is darn sensitive and I still did not pick up on anything before it was too late for my sister who incurred a lot of damage from her first husband.

[TranquilMind]

 

I have read many many many comments by you on the subject of abuse over the years. - which I've repeatedly found  profoundly lacking in compassion for abuse victims.  I've also read many of your vague claims of "having been there" - which makes your repeated and profound lack  of compassion for abuse victims even more appalling. 

 

you claim to have compassion.  well, no one can see any.

 

 

 

Well, suffice it to say that people who know me see it. 

 

I guess it makes you feel good to impugn my character though,  Feel free. Whatever floats your boat. 

Edited to fix sentence. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Rosie_0801]

What?  I don't have a low opinion of you?  I think you are a lovely person, actually.

 

If you are more comfortable with me saying that I think many of those traits "would give anyone pause", then fine.  

ETA:  I personally would be gone at the first hint of "doesn't understand the taboo on incest".  :0

 

Ah, well I thought you just implied I wasn't rational, but of course it is possible to be lovely and irrational.

 

Those traits would give anyone pause, if they were available for public viewing. The reason it is called covert narcissism is because they hide it really, really, really well. Irrationality isn't the reason we victims missed the clues. The reason is we're just not awful enough to properly appreciate how a person's personality can resemble an iceberg.

 

As for the incest taboo. Firstly, do people seriously talk about their feelings about incest with prospective partners?  :huh: And secondly, anyone with a cluster B disorder is bright enough to know incest is taboo and would appear properly shocked if anyone suggested they were into it. 

 

They seem nice. They seem nicer than their victims. 

 

And, ask I asked before, how long does it take to get to know a liar?

When you're dealing with this kind of person, all the getting to know you conversations do is tell the narcissist what lies to tell you.

[Rosie_0801]

It is one reason abuse is sometimes generational because the "creep o meter" isn't tripped. 

 

Yeah. They make it all sound so *reasonable.* And what's worse, is ten years later you look back on it with the benefit of hindsight it still sounds reasonable. 

[TranquilMind]

Ah, well I thought you just implied I wasn't rational, but of course it is possible to be lovely and irrational.

 

Those traits would give anyone pause, if they were available for public viewing. The reason it is called covert narcissism is because they hide it really, really, really well. Irrationality isn't the reason we victims missed the clues. The reason is we're just not awful enough to properly appreciate how a person's personality can resemble an iceberg.

 

As for the incest taboo. Firstly, do people seriously talk about their feelings about incest with prospective partners?  :huh: And secondly, anyone with a cluster B disorder is bright enough to know incest is taboo and would appear properly shocked if anyone suggested they were into it. 

 

They seem nice. They seem nicer than their victims. 

 

And, ask I asked before, how long does it take to get to know a liar?

 

I don't know how long it takes.  I pick up on inconsistencies really, really quickly, a finely honed skill I've acquired along the way. 

 

If something doesn't feel right, it isn't. I don't care if you are on a first date or married 10 years.  

 

  I think women want to be nice and tend to disregard or downplay warning signs, especially when they are younger.  I've done it myself.  Hell, yes, you had better talk about incest and everything else, somewhere along the way. 

 

At any rate, most of those who talk about it got out of it somewhere along the way, which is a good thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

I don't know how long it takes.  I pick up on inconsistencies really, really quickly, a finely honed skill I've acquired along the way. 

 

If something doesn't feel right, it isn't. I don't care if you are on a first date or married 10 years.  

 

  I think women want to be nice and tend to disregard or downplay warning signs, especially when they are younger.  I've done it myself.  Hell, yes, you had better talk about incest and everything else, somewhere along the way. 

 

At any rate, most of those who talk about it got out of it somewhere along the way, which is a good thing.

 

No, most of them are stuck in the family court. That is not out of it by any stretch. The Family Court helps abusers abuse. I've had court ordered stuff that has abused further than my ex had even thought of. He must be delighted.

 

All the getting to know you conversations do is tell them what kind of lies to tell you. 

 

Yeah, I did downplay warning signs but really, how is anyone to know that leaving wet towels on the floor is a sign that the person is going to come to a belief that you are subhuman? No one can possibly know that, particularly people who don't even know that NPD exists. And it's really hard to explain it so anyone will understand, because it sounds unbelievable. That italicised part above sounds like hyperbole, doesn't it?

[Guest]

Tranquil, you are probably a strong person raised without a lot of mind games. You may have an excellent BS meter as my dear nephew would say. But many people due to emotional trauma and abuse do not have a good BS counter and aren't as likely to catch the red flags.

 

Legalism, low self esteem, trauma, lifelong manipulation, parental domination, all these things dull the senses im these matters. It is one reason abuse is sometimes generational because the "creep o meter" isn't tripped. As for the really professional liars, even the best of creep o alarms may nor go off. The sociopathic ones can be uber hard to catch. My own meter is darn sensitive and I still did not pick up on anything before it was too late for my sister who incurred a lot of damage from her first husband.

It does, but it can do other things equally harmful, that set a person up to be easily taken advantage of. Here are lies I once believed:

That my opinion did not matter

That my emotions were irrelevant

That people who claim to love me are allowed to hurt me

That it isn't lady-like to reject someone

That I must smile, be sweet and have a cheerful countenance

Depression is caused by a demon

Anger is a sin

[8circles]

It does, but it can do other things equally harmful, that set a person up to be easily taken advantage of. Here are lies I once believed:

That my opinion did not matter

That my emotions were irrelevant

That people who claim to love me are allowed to hurt me

That it isn't lady-like to reject someone

That I must smile, be sweet and have a cheerful countenance

Depression is caused by a demon

Anger is a sin

This is worth repeating.

[Audrey]

I agree. I actively push my kids out of the nest. That's my job! And I don't want them dependent on me forever.

 

 

I think it's really the other way around.  JB is dependent on those children for his money.  He pimped them out to reality TV.  After the Josh scandal, their long running show was suddenly cancelled.  JB pushed hard to get TLC to do the Counting On show with the girls.  Don't think for a moment that those girls aren't funneling any money back to him for that. 

[JennSnow]

Wow..ya'll sure do get worked up something fierce over the Duggars around here, lol.

Edited June 22, 2016 by JennSnow

[gardenmom5]

Wow..ya'll sure do get worked up something fierce over the Duggars around here, lol.

We get worked up over parents who abuse their kids. Even when it doesn't leave a mark.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Wow..ya'll sure do get worked up something fierce over the Duggars around here, lol.

 

Easy to do when it comes to morally reprehensible pieces of filth like JimBob and whatever her name is.

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by ChocolateReignRemix

[Liz CA]

And if I recall, the statistic for women who return to the abusive partner after being in a shelter is rather high. I think I heard that it takes an average of 3-5 visits to the shelter before women leave permanently.

 

This is true for our area. Horrible things have been left at shelter gates with notes attached like: "You better get home or your get more like this."

Law enforcement is overwhelmed and the penal code does not cover all the areas it would need to to protect someone in a case like this.

 

[PeterPan]

How do they even conclude that it is "sinful" to fidget or rock in a chair?? What Bible verse is that supposedly based on??

 

Guess you just aren't lucky enough to run in those circles.   ;)

 

The Truth about ADHD: Genuine Hope and Biblical Answers

 

The Bible has verses that say pay attention, therefore it's a command from God.  God wouldn't tell you to do anything you can't do, therefore when you're not paying attention (the way your parents want, the way the school wants), you're sinning.  So read more Bible verses, receive discipline, it's all fair game, because it's SIN.  If your parents would discipline you more and just read the Bible more about how to discipline, you would stop this sinning.  

 

:svengo:

 

And fwiw, at the time this gentleman wrote this book, he had NO supervised clinical experience with ADHD and knew NOTHING about ASD, both of which my ds has.  ASD is often accompanied by severe levels of ADHD.  To say you know enough about ADHD and the range of human behavior to WRITE A BOOK but have no supervised clinical experience in it AT ALL is pretty astonishing.  But, it's par for the course in this group.  Get a theory and hold to it.  Don't use common sense or compassion.  Just pull a few verses out of context and happily apply them to anything.  Kinda like the "forgive" crowd counseling rape victims.  Same people, same philosophy. 

 

:svengo:

Edited June 22, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[BlsdMama]

This was what I liked about her, too. I thought the "tomato staking" concept was brilliant and I used it over and over again when my kids were small. I didn't call it that; I called it "my best buddy." So, I would say, "Cw, you're going to be my best buddy today. You do everything with me." To me, this dovetailed perfectly with what Joanne called "Get-Off-Your-Butt" parenting, the other brilliant parenting concept. Because, truly, it is way easier to correct a problem when it happens a foot away from you, and it is easy to GOYB when they are already right there next to you. Somewhere in there, the kids also learned that laundry doesn't wash itself and weeds don't jump out of the garden magically. It was a win-win.

 

Total tangent and bunny trail - 

Yeah - my dad was very much like this, "Come plant trees," "Let's go do x," "I need a partner," type of parent.  He wasn't so hot in other ways (although an alcoholic parent can be a good time if you don't know why they are always so relaxed and in such a good mood) but truly he was my strongest relationship growing up and I felt valued and important - Dad ALWAYS wanted us with him, always chose us to do something with him, always enjoyed our company.  Actually, he's still like this.  My DH loves it about him.  I think it's the biggest missing X factor in a successful parenting relationship.  People can do so many things wrong and miss out on the joy of just working with their kids and miss that tie that binds.  Then some people can practically do everything wrong, but they light up around their kids and truly want their kids working with them all the time and they end up with a successful adult relationship with them.  It's pretty fascinating from a psychology of relationships type of an angle.

[ktgrok]

Even I, who was horrified by most of the tomato staking lady's book, found a few good nuggets in there. The main one being that I didn't have to put up with stuff that drove me crazy, then act like a lunatic when I finally hit my tipping point. So if the way they were playing was making me batty, I as the parent had a right to say "stop doing that" JUST because it drove me batty. Better I NOT end up cranky and angry and a not fun mama, and stop it, than try to let them do it then lash out and yell when I'd had enough. That was a good lesson. But I could have learned that lesson somewhere else I bet, without the rest of it. 

 

And I do have a kid with ADHD and ASD. I did finally break down and spank him a few times. I regret it with every soul of my being. It was wrong. It wasn't at all what he needed. When he was diagnosed years later I felt terrible. Thank God I never fell into that spoil the rod stuff or I'd have a lot more to regret. 

[BlsdMama]

I am not saying that the tomato staking (keeping your kids close) is bad in any way. But go back and read the quotes I posted. Spanking a child for wiggling and having a two hour  outlasting session with a toddler, where you are periodically spanking over the course of two hours? Spanking a child or putting her in the corner for not being perfectly happy (ie , for being sad or upset that she is unable to draw a picture)??? What does that kind of parenting do a a child long term? And yes, she does speak about getting together with other families, but they must be "like minded" and the children (and teens) must be supervised. The kids/ teens are not allowed to have friends that they choose and are not allowed to get together with other teens without both families being present.

 

 

You know Meg, I really see what you're getting at here and I can see the harshness, but I suspect if I phrase this differently, there is some semblance of logic? Maybe?

 

Jr doesn't draw a picture well. He's an absolute perfectionist.  I see what he's doing - damaging himself.  I see him throwing his pencils and ripping up his page because the legs on his horse aren't quite right and he's taking this little thing (which is BIG in his mind) and he's making a molehill into a mountain.  I understand why he's upset and I'm truly compassionate, but I also know this "little" thing (having an all out fit because of demanding perfectionism) isn't good for his mental state.  Do I insist he stop?  Absolutely.  Do I insist he straighten out the picture?  If I'm smart I do.  Then I reframe it - "Junior, I KNOW you wanted to do this perfectly.  Some day you will but it will take a LOT of practice until then.  We'll work on it!  We'll get some books."  Now, at this point, your kiddo is going to do one of two things.  They are going to either accept what you say, continue to draw or go do something else.  At that point, you're going to see either acceptance, resignation, or some kind of "dealing with it" type of heart attitude.  BUT in a child who insists on continuing to pitch a fit - you're seeing a driving insistence on perfectionism and really some kind of self-hatred.  It's seriously unhealthy for the child.  It may LOOK like you're punishing a child for not "drawing perfectly" but that's not it.  It's for the attitude of self driving.  This is the same thing you see in a 17 year old trying to fix a car and throwing a part against the wall.  The problem with parenting just a one or two kids that are close in age, especially in today's society, where we've never seen our siblings parented often either, is that sometimes you, as the mama, see a heartbroken kid who just wanted to draw a picture right. Not only that, but this is a new situation.  You haven't thought about, "Well, when Junior becomes a perfectionist, is this a healthy thing to let continue? Do I stop it?  How do I stop it?  How do I respect his frustration and still stop the unhealthy self hate?"  The mama who has adults can see down the road and see the destruction that this same attitude wreaks in a teen or an adult.  This is the same kid who is going to insist on perfection in THEIR kids or THEIR wives.  It wreaks havoc in their lives.  Why not just insist that they just deal with imperfection?  "Perfectly" happy I think is your quote?  No one is ever perfectly happy.  But we do learn to deal with the hand we are dealt.  I am never perfectly happy.  But I can get back up and deal with life around me.  Last week I had a D & C.  It was a rather less than happy ending.  I could be sitting here this week still walking around, grumping at my kids, snapping at them, and just not dealing with it and mending.  Frankly, I need to tell myself (because we all self talk) that I have things to be VERY thankful for - first and foremost eleven healthy kids.  Second, my own health.  I think ALL adults realize people can't be perfectly happy and they know children can't either..... Otherwise something is wrong with their heads, kwim?  But it is an amazing gift when you teach your kids to sort between mountains and molehills and teach them how to tell themselves, "This  too shall pass," and "I can do this with hard work and practice."  Frankly this is just one of those getting back on the horse moments.

 

 

 

On the teen friend thing: 

And, frankly, I work VERY hard to position my kids to make good friends. DS spent hundreds of hours with Mock kids this year.  Frankly?  Hundreds of hours with kids that are super motivated internally to succeed academically?  WIN!  How many of us suggest activities that are physical or mental because of the kids they will meet and because it's a good way to utilize time? Your friends can get you into a LOT of trouble.  Isn't this why many of us homeschool?  So that we have greater influence on peer groups and how much time our kids spend with them?  Or why we choose one school over another?    And I'll tell you right now, if you don't spend time with your kids' friends, supervise (obviously not the same way as a 4yo) their time, and know what's going on, you could make a terrible mistake.  Kids make foolish decisions.  Their brains aren't fully mature.  My wonderful son - - - He got to know several guys from his college classes.  He's pretty cautious about who he allows on FB, but this kid was homeschooled.  He got an auto-pass, kwim?  Until the kid "liked" some seriously hard core ...... and the picture of the like showed up on DS' page.  He freaked out - "Mom, get it off.  Can my friends see what I see???"  Yeah, that was the last "auto-pass" on FB.  Was it his fault?  Nope.  But we both learned that just because a kid is a bright homeschooled kid doesn't mean he's spending his time wisely.  Would I let my DS hop on over his house to spend the afternoon on the computer?  Not unless the day was so cold that Hell actually froze over, kwim?

 

Let me give you an example in my lap right now, lol.  This insanely gorgeous three year old of mine is up in arms.  She wants yogurt and there isn't any more yogurt.  Holy cow, Chicken Little, the sky is NOT falling.  You can have an egg at this VERY second or you can wait for the muffins in the oven. What you may NOT do is sit here and scream at me.  So she's on my lap 'til it passes.  

 

I'm not a big fan of blanket training... Too much work and I don't believe in training babies and toddlers. I also am highly tolerant of wiggling.  I have no idea why anyone would want someone to have a three year old sit still, lol.  But I digress. As we don't belong to a church, I'm not trying to get four kids under six to sit still for an hour so this was never my forte.  I didn't weigh in on it and never did "sit still" training after our third child.  I will say the practice of sitting still at home is valuable and so great for a kid because it's WAY better to practice "being still" for a half hour every day with a book when you're 2-4, verses the "nice" mommy who never makes her kid sit still, then takes them somewhere (like a doctor appointment or a meeting) and then expects them to "know how" to just be still for a half hour.  That's a crazy unfair expectation, IMO, and you set them up for failure at it and you get upset and then I have to ask, "Is it really their fault they don't know how to do this?  Be upset with YOU but don't be upset with THEM.  They've had no practice at it."

 

I will tell you that I think your issue might be with a swat on the butt.  I have no  such issue and I know that sending a kid to their room tends to cause bad feelings on both peoples' parts to linger.  I also know sitting someone in the corner can stop the behaviour, but it nurtures either the hurt or the anger.  It solves precious little.  I understand (like I said, we came from grace-based parenting and we didn't even use negative words - like the word "no" or "don't" around our oldest DD for years) the revulsion around a swat on the bottom.  But I will tell you from personal experience that a swat on the butt is the fastest way to be done with a punishment rather than d-r-a-w-i-n-g it out to a crazy battle of wills and both of  you nurturing hard feelings.  Plus, IMO, unless something odd is going on, the likelihood of swatting a lot, often, or for years is just weird.  Once you've established clear rules, they understand them, you all spend time together, you talk things through together, a reasonable kid really just needs a verbal correction or to talk things through.  I have a six year old currently that is seriously ADHD. (Not an exaggeration, she is the true definition.)  I cannot remember the last time she got a swat on the bottom.  She isn't NAUGHTY.  She's impulsive.  She makes horrible choices, lol, but the motivation behind them is often thoughtful and considerate.  If I wasn't with her a LOT and didn't see the process (like what she was thinking/doing) and only seeing the outcome, I'd be upset with her a LOT.   It was Elizabeth that taught me to look at her motivation.  "Heart" attitude.  This kid is as good as gold.  Did she break my favorite cup?  Yes. Getting me something to drink.  Does she break things nearly daily? Or spill? Or climb?  She does, but it's usually doing something for someone else.  Does she talk out of turn?  All. The. Time.  But she is just so eager and happy and full of enjoyment for life.  Heaven help me to never look at the result, but ONLY the motivation.  But, see, this is the difference between legalism (and all the other issues mentioned here) and what I'm talking about.  I believe in what Charlotte Mason said - children are full, complete human beings.  They deserve the respect and consideration, as well as the truth and teaching, of any image bearer.  Frankly swats on the bottom are rarely ever utilized in a home where the parent can tell the difference between CHILDISHNESS and NAUGHTINESS.  It's all in the intent.  I remember her once talking about her boys jumping on the sofa.  (I was aghast, this was years ago.)  It was CHILDISHNESS.  There is a difference that our society refuses to recognize.  I've seen some kids who are sneaky/mean and their folks often say, "Oh, they didn't MEAN to hurt the baby or the kitty," because it was sly and looked like an accident.  And the kid smirked. (Attitude) and I've seen parents get all bent out of shape because a child stepped on a baby's foot or the kitty's tail and there was NOT ONE INCH of cruelty in the kid but she still got yelled at.  Who is meaner?  Frankly, I think it's both.  The rotten kid doesn't get corrected because Mom was never taught to look behind his actions and the other kid got in trouble for genuinely not meaning harm.  Nuances.  

 

And this is OT too I think?

 

But it really does tie back into the damage of legalism.

 

Sometimes I wish we could just all get together and really see and spend time with each others kids and talk like this.  And have the kids weigh in.  I think it would be such an interesting conversation to have.... But at this moment I hear total chaos, lol, and I think the muffins are done. ;)

Edited June 22, 2016 by BlsdMama