Indulging my petty side: Jinger Duggar has a boyfriend.

[gardenmom5]

I've heard that about quilts, but I don't think this is actually true.

 

This site notes that we hear similar myths about Persian rugweavers and Native American beadworkers and just "people" in the past. In general, I find that when we hear the same story about disparate groups, it's not true for any of them. Do you have a citation from somebody who is actually Amish?

 

in regards to the quilts. that was the explanation given for the odd, very out of place of glaringly clashing piece of fabric to the rest of the quilt.

 

eta: and I saw a lot of quilts with at least one piece that was completely out of place.  it clashed badly.  that was the explanation given.

Edited June 24, 2016 by gardenmom5

[MercyA]

in regards to the quilts. that was the explanation given for the odd, very out of place of glaringly clashing piece of fabric to the rest of the quilt.

 

eta: and I saw a lot of quilts with at least one piece that was completely out of place.  it clashed badly.  that was the explanation given.

 

Okay, that is weird and would seem to require an explanation, for sure! 

[LucyStoner]

I don't know if they get visited or not.

I do know that some people call a swat "abuse". It is hard to know what people mean when they say that. It seems that people want to redefine terms today

When I think of abuse, I think of the Baniszewski case from the 60's.

(Obviously hitting a baby is wrong.)

Did I say that? Of course not. I'm just stating what comes to mind when I think of abuse.

Please try to remember that for many posters on this board what comes to mind when they think of abuse is horrific stuff that we or a loved one has survived (or not survived). Abuse is not an abstract concept that we need a 50 or so year old case of a woman engaging children in the torture and murder of an unofficial foster child to grasp. When I think of child abuse survivors, I think of my mother and my husband and my niece and nephews. And many others I am not related to but know very well.

 

You are speaking of which you admit you do not know first hand. Because if your frame of reference is a case from the 1960s, it's just not.the.same.thing.

 

My brother abused his wife and kids, was arrested multiple times, his now ex- wife has a permanent physical impairment from the abuse, and charges were dropped for bs reasons when charges were even filed. This would be just 2 years ago. Tell me how something being criminalized on the books equates to actual consequences for actual abuse? He even is still entitled to unsupervised visits with his kids. If you think that the criminal courts or the family courts hold people accountable for being abusers or keep children safe consistently or even half the time, you are living in a dream land. But that this example were the only one I had of serious abusers getting away with it or children being left unprotected by the court and social services. Stop minimizing abuse by having only the most extreme conception of what abuse looks and feels like. Please.

Edited June 24, 2016 by LucyStoner

[TranquilMind]

Please try to remember that for many posters on this board what comes to mind when they think of abuse is horrific stuff that we or a loved one has survived (or not survived). Abuse is not an abstract concept that we need a 50 or so year old case of a woman engaging children in the torture and murder of an unofficial foster child to grasp. When I think of child abuse survivors, I think of my mother and my husband and my niece and nephews. And many others I am not related to but know very well.

 

You are speaking of which you admit you do not know first hand. Because if your frame of reference is a case from the 1960s, it's just not.the.same.thing.

 

My brother abused his wife and kids, was arrested multiple times, his now ex- wife has a permanent physical impairment from the abuse, and charges were dropped for bs reasons when charges were even filed. This would be just 2 years ago. Tell me how something being criminalized on the books equates to actual consequences for actual abuse? He even is still entitled to unsupervised visits with his kids. If you think that the criminal courts or the family courts hold people accountable for being abusers or keep children safe consistently or even half the time, you are living in a dream land. But that this example were the only one I had of serious abusers getting away with it or children being left unprotected by the court and social services. Stop minimizing abuse by having only the most extreme conception of what abuse looks and feels like. Please.

I'm sorry that happened in your family and unclear why charges would have been dropped, as that looks like pretty substantial evidence.

 

No one is minimizing abuse here. It seems to have a range of definitions around here though, which is what I was saying. Some will vehemently argue a single swat on the bottom is abuse.

 

Then you have the extreme like I cited.

Edited June 24, 2016 by TranquilMind

[eternalsummer]

Well at any rate I was arguing that two very specific things were abuse - the hitting of babies with rulers and the repeated paddling of a young child for rocking in his chair or touching his forehead with his eraser, etc.

 

Do you think hitting babies with rulers is not abuse?  Do you think the scenario (or several others, for that matter) related on the RGT site are not abuse?

 

Those were the issues in question, not the occasional smack or really extreme torture.  Both of the latter are red herrings.

[LucyStoner]

I'm sorry that happened in your family and unclear why charges would have been dropped, as that looks like pretty substantial evidence.

 

 

Why were charges dropped? Well, primarily prosecuting a DV defendant for separate, discreet incidents of assault is a highly ineffective way of demonstrating/proving abuse. The victim may have not called 911 about prior, very serious incidents (in this case the one that damaged her physically for life) and often they charge just for whatever action precipitated the arrest. They generally can't lay out a decade long pattern of police reports, ER visits, witness testimony to prior acts and CPS records.

 

Cool as a cucumber narcissists often make pretty good witnesses in court. My brother can be quite charming.

 

My SIL, for a variety of relevant and totally irrelevant reasons, does not present as a great witness in a criminal trial or in a pro se civil petition in family court. That does not mean she was not abused but it makes for a weaker case. The most likely in the moment witnesses are the children and they may not be willing, able or allowed to testify.

 

He's guaranteed a public defender in criminal court. While she was not able to access much legal help in family court and was unwilling to ask for all the kids needed.

 

At least here, if the defendant won't take a plea for assualt they cull through what they will proceed with and what they will not. They offered him a serious deal with serious consequences and he wouldn't budge. So they dropped the case because of the factors above. He said-she said. He crowed he'd proved she was a liar and he was innocent. Well, the rest of the family, the officers at the local precinct who'd been to the house a half gazillion times, the prosecutor and the public defense attorney all knew he had done it. But that doesn't mean much if the state can't prove it in a court.

[Rosie_0801]

Cool as a cucumber narcissists often make pretty good witnesses in court. My brother can be quite charming.

 

My SIL, for a variety of relevant and totally irrelevant reasons, does not present as a great witness in a criminal trial or in a pro se civil petition in family court. That does not mean she was not abused but it makes for a weaker case. 

 

Typical.

 

The best way to get through the court process without looking like you have a personality disorder is to *have* a personality disorder.

 

 

Cool, calm and collected = great person

Showing stress = a manipulative liar, guilty of parental alienation, probably has a personality disorder and ought to lose custody.

 

 

 

[BooksandBoys]

Typical.

 

The best way to get through the court process without looking like you have a personality disorder is to *have* a personality disorder.

 

 

Cool, calm and collected = great person

Showing stress = a manipulative liar, guilty of parental alienation, probably has a personality disorder and ought to lose custody.

Horrific but true.

Hugs, Rosie.

[kwg]

I felt like throwing out some thoughts and experiences regarding cults and abuse. Apparently I had a lot to say on the subject. lol.

 

I would appreciate it if from here on is not quoted in case I become chicken and want to erase my story.   I am open to all thoughts and responses but I do not know yet how I will feel with this out there, I have to see ;p  The cult I was involved in was called Straight Inc.   I am not going to link it but googling Straight Inc.  should be fine or that plus "drug rehab".  I was there from the ages of 16 to nearly 18.  

 

One of the responses made me think of this video. I do not feel like scrolling back to look for it to see who specifically and it does not matter really.  In general, if you are in the habit of putting a silver lining on things and responding with "At least..." when someone shares something sensitive with you, you might consider this viewpoint.  Not that I am any good at with myself but it is something to think about when responding to others I think.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw

 

 

I do know that some people call a swat "abuse". It is hard to know what people mean when they say that. It seems that people want to redefine terms today

When I think of abuse, I think of the Baniszewski case from the 60's.

(Obviously hitting a baby is wrong.)

About people equating one swat with abuse- it has clearly hit a nerve with me and then I kind of go off not talking to you personally but in general. I am sorry if it becomes confusing- 

 

I do not believe that is a real thing to be concerned about and this kind of discussion has only ever added to my confusion when trying to determine if my experiences were my fault or if it was abuse. And if it was abuse, was it "bad enough" for me to be upset about? Just then- at the time of the incident, or is it acceptable a month after? Or still? For how long? 

 

Who is calling a swat abuse- the Single Swatter or the Once Swatted?  And why do you think they are doing it? What is the point of such a declaration as you understand it? I would like to understand what you or anyone else means with this especially after you read all my thoughts if you have the time and opportunity- 

 

I can not think of an example of a time a SIngle Swatter be abusive other than being too hard on herself or something which is irrelevant to this topic.  

 

I can think of a few times in my life where I have been thrown what I guess would be a "I was Once Swatted" story-

 

Once I shared something, and the person said she could understand bc- and basically compared a swat to my traumatic experience- -I could feel the expression on my face change,  I couldn't help it!--- lol--- I was appalled, I am not going to lie- I said, with raised eyebrows " are you comparing *this traumatic experience I just related* with *something that small*? Am I hearing that correctly?" (all I could think was surely I am not, but at the same time I have never known myself to have actual real auditory hallucinations) and she explained  and we talked but the feeling I got when I left that conversation was she was trying to say the right thing and it was coming out wrong.  Or it was possible my filter was off.  Whichever the case, the conclusion I came to was she was not someone I need to share my story with at this point, she couldn't handle the truth ( I love that line, lol)  or I could not hear her response... but whatever, whichever, Not a good idea. 

 

I am very aware that people will not understand me, I am different from the rest of the world, they will roll their eyes and say I had it coming, it was not "bad enough" to be labeled "abuse".  The only people who can understand me are the ones in the same cult as I was. I was told that a lot and for a long time I believed it fully and completely.  

 

There have been times in my life where I guess I did the Single Swat thing, as in refer to a single swat -or minimize my  experiences- as abuse:

 

me:  I do not like it here, it is abusive. there are too many rules and they yell at you. 

other person: you need to do what they are saying. Buck Up. 

Me: but. they make you sit up.

other person: so then sit up.

 

She did not say Big Deal... lol.... but I think she might have been thinking it. She certainly acted like it.  Who has not been yelled at? And I can see the point... she was right, follow the rules, can't you do that? I usually feel like I can always strive harder and try more..... most people do, right?   

 

See, I was not sure....there was a part of me that thought... I deserve everything that is happening, and then sometimes there is a part that thought....uh, this is (or later was) insane.....so sometimes I was throwing out a little thing, some experience that did not matter much or the beginning of the experience, to see what happened. I wouldn't care and neither would you about this little thing. But I could see if you throw it out completely or squash it or ask more about it or..... and sometimes it was like I knew I did not really deserve protection but I am kinda hoping maybe that other person would not know just how bad I was and they seemed nice enough and so maybe they would just act on that/respond as if?....(lol, i do not know, cults suck, abuse sucks )..  But if I minimize it from the get go, I could be ready either way. 

 

I can see now how saying "they make you sit up" is one of those "you had to be there" kind of things.   

 

 

Or----  maybe you totally saw this one coming but by "have to" I meant: (and I am putting a trigger warning here just in case not implying you would define this as bad enough to be triggering or anything like that)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

they take their fists and shove them down your back and then pull your shoulders back so you are sitting up straight in the chair. They walk down the aisle and do that to each of us in between the group sessions.  YOu have to put your hands on your knees and if they stray, the person next to you will put them on your knee for you.  They will sit you up if you slouch.  Your feet must be flat on the floor.  You have to look at whoever is talking and if you do not, they will make you.  They will turn your head and hold it in place.  They will do the same if you are trying not to sit still  (like jiggle your leg).  One person on each leg and arm, one person on your back. 

 

See? You have to sit up.  

 

If they call on you, you have to stand up. They will make you. There are hundreds of people in the group.  If they want to confront you, you have to listen. They have no problem (to use a more recent term) 'invading your personal space', but their name for it was called spit therapy,  and if you try to wipe their spit off your face, they will hold your arms down by your side. If you try to turn away while they are yelling, they will force your head in their direction. 

You. Have. To.   

They put people next to you who are told to nit pick you.  They pick at you, sitting you up straighter, legs exactly in the right place, arms perfect and since technically you are expected to submit fully by not flinching but eventually you become so angry or tired of it because you know it will not stop so you jerk away or you hit them even (and if you are wondering that is what they told your parents, you became violent and resisted so they had to restrain you) and then they will throw you to the ground and put your hands behind your back like on cop shows and do the same for your legs so you are hog tied but held down by people.........and you will be restrained for as long as it takes until you stop screaming and yelling and sobbing and fighting. They will not let your hair hide your face. They will let you up when you are still and quiet and it does not matter how long that takes.  If you go limp while they are throwing you down, it hurts less and you are restrained for less time and there are less bruises.  Once you are still and not crying, then you can sit up and go back to the chair and start it all again. Sometimes they will say ok leave her alone now. Sometimes not. All day.  We got there after breakfast and left before dinner. 

 

 

But the person I was trying to tell did not get to hear all that because I stopped at "you have to sit up" since her attitude was well why don't you just do what they want you to do? ANd she was right. Why didn't I do what they wanted me to?

 

Is that what you are wondering too: WHy didn't you just sit up? I worry what people think of me after reading that. I used to wonder that too but- 

 

---*sigh* ----- Because of the first part, there are too many rules.  Because I couldnt. Because no one can be that perfect. You would have messed it up too. I know it.  Imagine - all day long the above mentioned..... plus the other rules -when you went anywhere you had to be held by the belt loop on your jeans no matter where you were going -even the bathroom-, you were never left unaware, you were not allowed to talk to the other newcomers,you had to ask to pick up every item you used--like your toothbrush and your bra and the toilet paper and your fork- you had to get honest with impure thoughts which included thoughts of boys, girls, touching yourself...anything related to your sexuality, you were not allowed to read so this includes anything --labels and signs in addition to books and magazines, no music, no looking at the guys side, no tv, no make up, no belts, no jewlery,no phones, no unapproved people, no school, no talking out,....... the list is too ridiculous.  Anyway, the point is -it was too hard sometimes, to follow all the rules.  And I was 16. And if you did something wrong, they yelled at you. All the time. They yelled at people all day.  For accidents even.  I do not even feel like typing out the vitriol that came out of their mouths.  They called us sick and twisted, whores, druggie, lazy, selfish, lonely, pathetic, stupid......  

 

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

Untrigger-

 

 SO - in that instance my tossing out a "swat" was an ineffective method of asking for help. The person listening could have been more helpful by being open to hearing what I was talking about instead of immediately dismissing it as trivial.  I think that is probably true for anyone in an abusive situation regardless of age. It is a Big Deal to try and say "hey, i think this might be wrong here......" I am minimizing it because I am worried you think that is what I deserve too.  

 

Also I think sometimes I was trying to say----here is the overall picture -I was abused. Please respond to what I am saying with this fact in mind. Here is a small part of that over all picture and-   I know it may seem stupid to you but.... how about you just ....buck up..... try and be patient and show some kindness........ give me some space and a chance. I have to start somewhere. I am not sure who to trust. I have been betrayed by all kinds of people, people who have told me they loved me and have done wonderful things for me. But they also tortured me.  And I am not exaggerating there either- I am redefining terms as an act that I survived but is defined as torture at Guantanamo Bay (iow, trained soldiers endured what I did as a teenager. I am a complete badass right? :lol:).  Cults have *brainwashing*.   It can get confusing. 

 

I dont know if this is making any sense at all. 

 

ok now some more general thoughts not specific to the quote

 

 

 I have forgotten the other post but someone mentioned shelters as being an option people use all the time and I was thinking- When you say people leave abusive situations every day, I feel grateful for the help offered them, hopeful for the family,  but not at all empowered or sure how it is relevant to me personally even when I would have needed it, lol.  I do not think I would ever understand why you are bringing it up to me unless I ask specifically for the resource. Or you said specifically "you need to go here because you are in danger".  My powers of delusion are amazing.   I am beginning to think it is like my super power.  But why it is not helpful- For one, I did not see it as abuse at the time. It was my fault. If I had not done X, then Y woudl not have happened.  Also, it was what everyone I was surrounded by was doing. It was almost as ridiculous to me at the time as someone calling homeschool "abuse" would be to you now.  For real. That is kinda nuts right? But that was my normal, a lot of it openly sanctioned by my parents, people who love me and are supposed to protect me.   SO if it is ok with them......Also, I was different from other people. Being treated badly was good for me, something no one other than people in my cult would or could understand. When social services came in and investigated this place, I lied because I knew they couldn't understand. (side note: Not everyone lied, my friend who was always telling me this is wrong, see? it says right here (in the AA literature) we are supposed to have compassion! so when they came and asked her she said she told every single thing and even got down and showed them how a restraint worked, dont you just love her bravery and honesty? SHe was a baby! like 14 or 15 maybe and had been there for a couple years, but because of at least her and one other girl, they graduated a bunch of us (me included!) and moved  the rest to a location in a nearby state thereby closing the program in this state).  I think that was one of my  attractions to my husband- he was a graduate of the program, a senior staff member, one of the head mother fuckers in charge- someone who knew and understood without being told what *I* needed.  Someone who had already hurt me deeply.  I have not eaten in days worrying about what that means as far as my decision making skills and why it has taken me this long to figure this out. Good god. We have children together.  I do not need reminding that at 23 I was making my own choices. I already know that. -----

 

 

 

I totally face palmed myself too.  :closedeyes:

 

 

 

 

I appreciate those who said they could see how hard it is....or can see why it was.....

 

 

So of course those woman in the shelter did not deserve it, none of them do but......what's that got to do with me? 

 

Do you know it has taken me until just recently to fully grasp what people mean when they say 'it is not your fault'? And to be honest I haven't been able to say it out loud yet. But- get this, it totally blew my mind anyway - that means nothing I did caused what happened to me...nothing....not.one.thing. That means I did not deserve it - maybe I deserve exactly what everyone else has. Maybe my feelings are just as important as anyone else walking on this earth. 

 

That is kinda ridiculous. I know. I am not a moron.  I graduated with a 3.9 GPA.   ANd that was after basically a tenth grade education because of the years I spent in the cult and then the last year I was in high school I could not stand to be anywhere inside for too long so I was constantly skipping school.... lol.  So I am not an idiot.  And I had a profession before I began homeschooling my children.  And you read the little bit I just shared, the part that is common knowledge - and I explained about the swat thing so you know there is more, much much more which means you know I have been through some things and I am here on these boards so I have a life, a good one.   I am not a wimp; I do not take things lying down. I am a fighter. 

 

 But somehow....here I am. 

 

So maybe not. I don't know. 

 

 In each case, I could see how there was something I did, some place where ------like in the example above- why didn't I just sit up? why didn't I.....?..... It is hard not to doubt yourself.......don't you doubt yourself about stuff?....ever? ANd so imagine being surrounded by someone (or a lot of someones) who are always telling you you suck  -and magnifying every little mistake you ever made over and over and over again and you are really having to degrade yourself before you feel the teensiest, slightest bit of relief like oh ok I did this one thing right....shew. see. there is hope. I am not complete slime. 

 

So that might be another reason why people say yes even the swat, ok, even the swat, you did not deserve. Nothing. Not a bit. Because really why is it coming up--- except for the things I mentioned, a misunderstanding or an introduction into a hard to tell story.  

 

 

When I have struggled with where do I draw the line - what was abuse, what was not abuse- in my own experience with the cult there is one story that may be  helpful in maybe understanding my view.

 

so:

 

another trigger thing

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I went through a period where I was feeling suicidal and got through it - All good now- BUT I was talking to my therapist and I was trying to explain that it was really hard for me to go to her with those thoughts even though I have known her for a long time. I knew logically she was not going to be mean, she wants to help me and has shown this - I *know* this- but at the same time I could remember how I vowed to never tell anyone if I ever felt like that- 

 

I was completely baffled on why he told - he has been here long enough to know this was not going to end well. And it did not. They laughed at him. They ridiculed him.  They put him on suicide watch so he had to wake up every few hours, sleep for a few, wake for a few. The people watching him could not sleep so neither could he.  We were already really tired all the time. They sang - i don't know if anyone remembers the tasty cake song where "nobody bakes a cake as tasty as a tasty cake".....because he looks normal on the outside but really is soft and mushy and disgusting on the inside, he was weak to think of suicide, they made him sit in front of everyone with a dunce cap on his head because the only reason he told anyone was he wanted attention. So attention is what he should get.  He was not really suicidal because a really suicidal person would be dead, he just wanted attention. You can not stop someone from killing themselves after all. 

 

And I was trying to tell my therapist that the reason I was scared or nervous was because I was not sure really what kind of response to expect at the time ---I got that the one I saw was over the top, no one was going to put a dunce cap on me for instance but ...where what was the line?.....when I tell someone I feel so worthless I am not sure I should be alive anymore, like maybe it is better for those I love that I am not here - ok - so they won't sing songs or deprive me of sleep.  that was clearly ineffective..... but- will they laugh? Roll their eyes?  Will they think I just want attention?  Do I want attention?  Will they think I am disgusting?  Are they just being nice but really thinking some of (all of) those things in their head? And so sometimes it just seemed easier to not take the risk that they might be thinking any of that crap since I feel bad enough already- who needs to worry about that on top of how crummy I am already feeling? 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

ok I think I am done again- lol

No more trigger

 

 

 

 

Anyway- her response to "where do you draw the line on what was wrong and what was not" was basically anything associated with that place at all ever was wrong period full stop.  And I said but well-  (for instance) the swat? yes. But- yes. It does not matter.

 

And honestly it does make it easier to distinguish Things That Should Happen To Me vs Things That Should Not Happen To Me. Because as you see, I am still trying to figure out where the lines are. And it isnt going to occur to most people to reassure me that the things I am worried about will not happen-  they are so just weird and stupid. WHo behaves that way?  WHo thinks that way? Who says those things? Gross right? But still, it did happen and even weirder, dumber things too.  So it has been helpful to assume no one normal and nice will behave the way I was treated there.  Everything there was wrong. All of it.  Even that swat.  I like thinking that way, lol. It feels like a relief in a way.  Why is it bad? 

 

While reading this thread I can catch myself minimizing my own experience. I spent two years having my will broken down. Those poor people went through it for life. I can't imagine. What am I complaining about? People are probably thinking I am such a whiner.    Can you imagine those poor babies who had to grow up submitting like that their whole lives? At least mine was not that bad. 

 

See? I do it to myself! I do not need any help!  I doubt my own self- I am good, I got that part.  I can be critical and minimize my experiences with the best of them.   And since I am Regular Person and no one special I have to assume other people who have been humiliated and degraded the way I have also have some of the same thoughts and fears. 

 

I want to be open to hearing your experiences and thoughts but it does also feel like if you have never felt that unsure of yourself, if you have never felt that ......subhuman.....if you have no clue what it is like to be treated in a way I described or have never had to earn the right to do basic things like pick things up without asking, earn the right to walk about freely, things that I imagine came as a surprise to at least some people that anyone would be sick and strange enough to think of as something a person should earn and not just something to take for granted, and yet somehow there was quite a few of these as treatment centers for children, teenagers. It was a chain.  So you might ....stop talking and start listening to those people who have been through it and have felt that way.  You could start there because they are telling you what would have been or has been helpful and what is or was not helpful, you know?   You can of course take it or leave it and if you become more interested you could actually read something and research the topic.  

 

I thank everyone who has acknowledge that it is hard, the whole abuse cult thing. It helps me feel less stupid and weak. 

 

 

 

[El...]

Oh, hon.  That was not ok.  Not even in the ballpark of ok.  I am so in awe of how you have expressed yourself here.  You have my deep respect, and my deep sympathy, for your recovery process. 

[8circles]

{{{kwg}}}

thank you.  you are very brave.  much love to you, honey.

[SproutMamaK]

kwg, I can't bring myself to like your post but I just wanted to say that I am so, so sorry. You've done an excellent job of describing what abuse does to a person... I can't even imagine. I'm glad you have a good therapist in your corner to help you slowly peel back all the layers of abuse and start reclaiming yourself.

[MercyA]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: , kwg. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. 

[ikslo]

:grouphug: kwg :grouphug:

[bluemongoose]

Hugs ((kwg)). You said it so well. I completely know that feeling of trying to start with the one swat. I understand! You are so strong to share what you did.

[scoutingmom]

Kwg. It was not your fault. It was not your fault. It was not your fault.

 

Yes, I know how hard it is to fully believe those words.

 

It was not your fault.

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[Soror]

I hope all those who minimized abuse, or said people should just leave, or they are just changing definitions reads in full what kwg wrote. Wrap your brain around it and get some compassion for people. 

 

kwg thank you for sharing. It was not your fault. It was not your fault. Those you abused you were wrong. 

[Ausmumof3]

Kwg...

 

I am so sorry! There is no way any of that was right in any way...

[Another Lynn]

(((kwg)))  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[FaithManor]

((((Kwg)))) that had to have been so awful to share. I can't think of any kind of helpful or appropriate response except to say you are a super woman to overcome that.

[Pam in CT]

kwg.

 

Thank you.

 

:grouphug:

 

Not OK.  

 

Not your fault.  

 

No one else gets to frame, or minimize, or discount, or dismiss, what happened to you.

 

Thank you especially for your insight into empathy v. sympathy, and "where is the line."

 

 

 

Holding you in the light.

 

 

[TravelingChris]

So sorry KWG.  We are not blaming you. :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Lady Florida.]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: KWG :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[TranquilMind]

KWG, I'm not sure what sort of institutional experience you are referring to, but yeah, that sounds really abusive to me.  It actually sounds similar to something I saw on TV about a program where they take kids in juvenile into prisons and let guards and inmates yell at them and tell them where they are headed if they don't straighten up.  They cannot touch them though.  But they do that "spit" thing you are referring to, right in their faces. 

 

I think that is awful.  In that case, I think the parents already are way out of their element with these kids to even consider such a thing.  Maybe it reduces their juvie sentence or something.

 

My comment about not knowing how people define abuse was mainly in reference to that aggressive circle of moms who will attack in a heartbeat, screaming "abusive parent who HITS her child" for a single swat.  No, it isn't, generally.  But it could be, given the circumstances.   I was not referring IN ANY WAY to someone like you. 

 

Like you, I certainly see more shades of gray than that, and like you say, sometimes you just have to be there to get it.  Like Justice Potter said about pornography, that he can't define it, but he knows it when he sees it. 

ETA:  fixed errors, clarity. 

Edited June 26, 2016 by TranquilMind

[PrairieSong]

KWG, {{{{big hugs}}}}

 

It was not your fault. No one deserves that kind of abuse, ever.

 

 

 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[8circles]

I feel like you aren't really listening.  I won't quote because she asked us not to, but you should really go back and read it again before she deletes it.  

KWG, I'm not sure what sort of institutional experience you are referring to, but yeah, that sounds really abusive to me.  She told us exactly which group it was and encouraged us to look it up to find out more.  It actually sounds similar to something I saw on TV about a program where they take kids in juvenile into prisons and let guards and inmates yell at them and tell them where they are headed if they don't straighten up.  They cannot touch them though.  But they do that "spit" thing you are referring to, right in their faces. Except it isn't that, it's worse.

 

I think that is awful.  In that case, I think the parents already are way out of their element with these kids to even consider such a thing.  Maybe it reduces their juvie sentence or something. You're making assumptions about kwg & her parents here.  Do you realize you're talking to the actual person who lived through this horror and has jst been brave enough to share it with you?  

 

My comment about not knowing how people define abuse was mainly in reference to that aggressive circle of moms who will attack in a heartbeat, screaming "abusive parent who HITS her child" for a single swat.  No, it isn't, generally.  But it could be, given the circumstances.   I was not referring IN ANY WAY to someone like you. The whole point of kwg's post is about how you don't know if the swats that you are hearing about are coming from the experiences of someone EXACTLY like kwg, so minimizing just adds to their pain.  Did you actually read her post?  All of it?

 

Like you, I certainly see more shades of gray than that, and like you say, sometimes you just have to be there to get it.  Like Justice Potter said about pornography, that he can't define it, but he knows it when he sees it. 

ETA:  fixed errors, clarity. 

 

I think you've missed the entire point.  It isn't about there being shades of grey, it's about actually listening to people's experiences.

 

[Guest]

{KWG} I am so sorry you endured that abuse. I can understand that minimization tendency and asking where the line is. It is why I said what I said - the world will be a better place where we recognize that there is no valid reason - never, none - for striking a child or any other human being.

[TranquilMind]

I feel like you aren't really listening. I won't quote because she asked us not to, but you should really go back and read it again before she deletes it.

 

I think you've missed the entire point. It isn't about there being shades of grey, it's about actually listening to people's experiences.

 

You are correct in that I missed the name of the group.

 

You missed the point of my post in your endeavor to correct line by line.

 

Eh, never mind. So not worth it.

Edited June 27, 2016 by TranquilMind

[kwg]

I read and thought about what you wrote. I can not tell if you lack civility or thoughtfulness or effective communication skills or what the deal is. I feel like I wrote my post in English, you responded in English but it is almost like I asked you to pick up milk at the store and you come home with bread.  Nothing is wrong with getting bread but it was not what I needed or asked you to get.  Most of me thinks you are incapable of getting what I need and I just need to give it up, lol.  I have no idea how to take most of what you said. 

 

 

KWG, I'm not sure what sort of institutional experience you are referring to,

I named the place and even gave you good terms to google, lol.  Do you always need to be spoon fed or is it just for some topics?  At any rate, a good book to begin research is Help At Any Cost 

 

but yeah, that sounds really abusive to me. 

Here is an excellent example of what I mean. I do not want you to judge me or my experiences.  I do not even know you! WHy would I care what you think!? Why do you think your opinion matters to me?  YOu have not earned the right to judge my experience.  I lived it so I can define it.   You did not even look it up and yet you can come up with an opinion and relate that opinion on a message board  to the person who was in the program. Your hubris is astounding to me.

 

It actually sounds similar to something I saw on TV about a program where they take kids in juvenile into prisons and let guards and inmates yell at them and tell them where they are headed if they don't straighten up.  They cannot touch them though.  But they do that "spit" thing you are referring to, right in their faces. 

 

I think that is awful.  In that case, I think the parents already are way out of their element with these kids to even consider such a thing.  Maybe it reduces their juvie sentence or something.

Here is another good example of what is not helpful- you are bringing your past experiences and prejudices into my situation.  YOu do not belong in this story (and arent you kinda glad lol).  Get out of my story.  Also, you guessed wrong because you do not know what you are talking about! . Why on earth would you even make that comparison?    I made no mention of prisons, guards, or inmates........because I said they spit and yell at us, are you assuming I was a criminal? I did something bad so it is understandable I was there?

 

 If there was an award for Insensitive Person of the Day you would have definitely been in the top ten, my dear. 

 

If you want to know why people were put in there you can look.it.up.

 

My comment about not knowing how people define abuse was mainly in reference to that aggressive circle of moms who will attack in a heartbeat, screaming "abusive parent who HITS her child" for a single swat. 

 

 I still do not get it but I do not expect you to answer.  in an idea world I would love you to at least think about why you care so much and still defend that it is right and ok to make these distinctions after what people have shared with you.   It makes no sense to bring it up in a thread where no one is doing it. YOu might as well interrupt and ask what people are having for dinner. Is that a valid comment or concerm? sure. Start a new thread! I see it all the time. But if no one is doing it, shut up about it.   I have told you that that specific way of thinking is confusing and hurtful so if you continue to do that please understand that is what you are doing. You are presenting yourself to me as hurtful and thoughtless because you will not even consider changing your words in light of hearing my experiences. I am not asking you to agree. I am asking you to think.  I can not read your intentions. I do not know how many hours you volunteer or if you help the homeless or if you return your shopping carts or anything about you other than what you are saying to me right now.  

 

No, it isn't, generally.  But it could be, given the circumstances.   I was not referring IN ANY WAY to someone like you. 

 

 

You know that I am you?  Or your neighbor? or your colleague?- I am married, have two children, a house, couple cats......I am the mom collecting money for the coach's gift, I attend park days, I taught your kids at co op, I went out with you at the last Mom's Night out and we discussed writing curricula.  Wtf do you mean someone like me?  :glare: 

 

You just do not know I went through this nor would you ever know it in real time because it is not like I have a neon sign that says Actual Abuse Victim. They do not give us special cards or anything you know. The only reason you got to hear this sliver is you are riding on the coattails of the understanding people in this forum. You lack empathy and emotional depth so I would not share my story with you. Ever, At all . I would have stopped at the "swat" I lobbied out because you do not deserve to hear my story. You would not treat me with respect and honestly I have had enough of dealing with disrespectful and hurtful people. 

 

If this is not the way you think of yourself, you need to change your behavior. You are presenting yourself as unkind.

 

Like you, I certainly see more shades of gray than that,

 

no. That is not what I said. I said I like the black/white one. ALl of it was wrong, all of it. Where she said even the swat was wrong. And I told you why. 

 

 

I think maybe you listen to respond instead of just hearing what the other person is saying? 

 

 

 

and like you say, sometimes you just have to be there to get it.  Like Justice Potter said about pornography, that he can't define it, but he knows it when he sees it. 

ETA:  fixed errors, clarity. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by kwg

[kwg]

You are correct in that I missed the name of the group.

 

You missed the point of my post in your endeavor to correct line by line.

 

Eh, never mind. So not worth it.

 I was posting  so I missed what you originally said. I did not want you to think I did the line by line after you said this, lol.  

 

I went line by line because this is important to me and I am trying to understand. I think she might understand this.  

 

I am not trying to pick apart what you said. I am trying to have a conversation. 

[TranquilMind]

I read and thought about what you wrote. I can not tell if you lack civility or thoughtfulness or effective communication skills or what the deal is. I feel like I wrote my post in English, you responded in English but it is almost like I asked you to pick up milk at the store and you come home with bread.  Nothing is wrong with getting bread but it was not what I needed or asked you to get.  Most of me thinks you are incapable of getting what I need and I just need to give it up, lol.  I have no idea how to take most of what you said. 

Gotcha.

 

Everyone else can comment on your experience but I am not to comment, for some reason known to you.   

 

Kindly place your restrictions upon acceptable responders in or at the top of your post and they will be acknowledged.  And place your comments in response outside someone else's post, because it is a considerate way to respond and your reader can determine to whom you are speaking.    

 

There was no way to know that those were your words inside someone else's post to which I responded or I would have responded to you and not that person. 

 

I'm sorry you had the experience you described.

 

ETA:  "Someone like you" = (obviously) "Someone who suffered heinous abuse and not someone who fits into the category of grey area (swats)".   Apparently unclear somehow. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by TranquilMind

[MercyA]

nm

Edited June 27, 2016 by MercyA

[TranquilMind]

 I was posting  so I missed what you originally said. I did not want you to think I did the line by line after you said this, lol.  

 

I went line by line because this is important to me and I am trying to understand. I think she might understand this.  

 

I am not trying to pick apart what you said. I am trying to have a conversation. 

 

If these sorts of comments are reflective of "trying to have a conversation", then the meaning of conversation must now also have been redefined.   I'm sorry I responded; I was unaware that anything other than the specific response you wanted in the manner you wanted was acceptable.    Nothing you seemed to hear is at all what was intended.   

 

 

You:  YOu do not belong in this story (and arent you kinda glad lol).  Get out of my story.  Also, you guessed wrong because you do not know what you are talking about!

 

 If there was an award for Insensitive Person of the Day you would have definitely been in the top ten, my dear. 

 

 The only reason you got to hear this sliver is you are riding on the coattails of the understanding people in this forum. You lack empathy and emotional depth so I would not share my story with you. Ever, At all . I would have stopped at the "swat" I lobbied out because you do not deserve to hear my story.

 

 

[maize]

TranquilMind, there are times to recognize that what you are doing is hurting another person and that not hurting is more important than saying your piece. 

 

How right or wrong you are doesn't matter right now, I think it might be a good time to just step back. Someone here has shared something very personal and very emotionally charged; right now this needs to be a supportive and not an argumentative space.

[kwg]

Gotcha.

 

Everyone else can comment on your experience but I am not to comment, for some reason known to you.   

 

Kindly place your restrictions upon acceptable responders in or at the top of your post and they will be acknowledged.  And place your comments in response outside someone else's post, because it is a considerate way to respond and your reader can determine to whom you are speaking.    

 

There was no way to know that those were your words inside someone else's post to which I responded or I would have responded to you and not that person. 

 

I'm sorry you had the experience you described.

 

ETA:  "Someone like you" = (obviously) "Someone who suffered heinous abuse and not someone who fits into the category of grey area (swats)".   Apparently unclear somehow. 

 

I wanted you to comment. I was waiting for your response before I decided to delete the thing.   I am sorry if i said or implied that because it was not what i meant.

 

I thought I was saying I dont understand why you are telling me what you are telling me. 

 

 

And no it is is not obvious. When you say someone like you I did not know if you meant the someone who is so worthless that people treat her that way or the someone who is broken and can not function in society. So I asked. And you told me.  Thank you. That makes sense. 

Edited June 27, 2016 by kwg

[MrsMommy]

You are correct in that I missed the name of the group.

 

You missed the point of my post in your endeavor to correct line by line.

 

Eh, never mind. So not worth it.

 

Perhaps you should consider that if many people are "missing the point of your post" (as is evidenced by likes to others'  responses and the responses themselves) that you are not saying what you think you are.

[MercyA]

I don't think TranquilMind had any ill intent.

 

I feel for you, kwg, but you really are being incredibly harsh.

[kwg]

If these sorts of comments are reflective of "trying to have a conversation", then the meaning of conversation must now also have been redefined.   I'm sorry I responded; I was unaware that anything other than the specific response you wanted in the manner you wanted was acceptable.    Nothing you seemed to hear is at all what was intended.   

 

 

You:  YOu do not belong in this story (and arent you kinda glad lol).  Get out of my story.  Also, you guessed wrong because you do not know what you are talking about!

 

 If there was an award for Insensitive Person of the Day you would have definitely been in the top ten, my dear. 

 

 The only reason you got to hear this sliver is you are riding on the coattails of the understanding people in this forum. You lack empathy and emotional depth so I would not share my story with you. Ever, At all . I would have stopped at the "swat" I lobbied out because you do not deserve to hear my story.

 

I never said it would be a comfortable conversation. But it is how I feel right now. You compared me to criminals who need to straighten up. How do you think that makes me feel?

[MrsMommy]

I don't think TranquilMind had any ill intent.

 

I feel for you, kwg, but you really are being incredibly harsh.

 

Respectfully, I don't think kwg is the one being harsh.

[Lady Florida.]

I don't think TranquilMind had any ill intent.

 

I feel for you, kwg, but you really are being incredibly harsh.

 

Based on responses TranquilMind has given in this and similar threads, I don't think kwg is being harsh at all.

[Spryte]

Ah... I just watched the video and was enlightened to learn that her name is pronounced "Ginger"! I've only ever heard her name the way I've pronounced it in my head, which was Jinger-rhymes-with-Ringer!

 

Jinger (Ginger) makes so much more sense!

I didn't watch the video, I've never watched anything about them - only read.

 

I'm happy to learn this, too! In my head, she was Jinger rhymes with Ringer, too! Thanks. :D

[MercyA]

Based on responses TranquilMind has given in this and similar threads, I don't think kwg is being harsh at all.

 

I can't speak to what TranquilMind wrote in other threads, but I went back and read through her comments in this one. I'm still left wondering what she said to deserve comments like this:

 

I can not tell if you lack civility or thoughtfulness or effective communication skills or what the deal is.

 

Do you always need to be spoon fed or is it just for some topics? 

 

Why would I care what you think!?

 

If there was an award for Insensitive Person of the Day you would have definitely been in the top ten, my dear. 

 

Is that a valid comment or concern? Sure. Start a new thread!...But if no one is doing it, shut up about it.  

 

The only reason you got to hear this sliver is you are riding on the coattails of the understanding people in this forum. You lack empathy and emotional depth so I would not share my story with you. Ever, at all...you do not deserve to hear my story. 

 

I don't know if people are reading more into TM's comments than what she actually said, or if they are misreading her tone, or what, but she doesn't deserve this. I think maybe she and kwg are just talking past each other, neither one intentionally. It happens. 

[MrsMommy]

 

I can't speak to what TranquilMind wrote in other threads, but I went back and read through her comments in this one. I'm still left wondering what she said to deserve comments like this:

 

I can not tell if you lack civility or thoughtfulness or effective communication skills or what the deal is.

 

Do you always need to be spoon fed or is it just for some topics? 

 

Why would I care what you think!?

 

If there was an award for Insensitive Person of the Day you would have definitely been in the top ten, my dear. 

 

Is that a valid comment or concern? Sure. Start a new thread!...But if no one is doing it, shut up about it.  

 

The only reason you got to hear this sliver is you are riding on the coattails of the understanding people in this forum. You lack empathy and emotional depth so I would not share my story with you. Ever, at all...you do not deserve to hear my story. 

 

I don't know if people are reading more into TM's comments than what she actually said, or if they are misreading her tone, or what, but she doesn't deserve this. I think maybe she and kwg are just talking past each other, neither one intentionally. It happens. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is misreading anything. She said some very unwarranted, cruel things, and kwg called her on it. And frankly, kwg is nicer than I would have been.

[MegP]

When you are 22, you can do something about it. Abused wives break away; so can she, if it is important enough.

 

Wow. I have no words. Just....wow.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

And we're done now.

 

Very tired of the personal bickering.

 

SWB