TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Jill and Jessa both got married; maybe it was one of them? Maybe. I was pretty sure it was Jana, but then maybe she wasn't that gung ho. I don't know. It's been awhile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I am a fan of courtship, but I think that term means different things to different people, or so I'm beginning to see that my definition of things, being from a pretty liberal family and I often don't see/realize the darker side of extreme conservatism... Some of these topics are still romantic to me, colored through my own life experiences. But I want to gently point out, the problem I see in courtship is this very comment. It leads one to believe that some day things will be okay or turn out alright.... WHEN she's complete, when she gets a guy. :( Like I said, we (our family) believe in the ideas behind courtship, that current dating methods are unhealthy, etc., But at fifteen we gave our daughter a ring, but we were very careful NOT to call it a purity ring. While we believe it is God's design to not have sex outside of marriage, her worth, her value is intrinsic, as a whole person created in the image of God and with a soul. We gave her a ruby ring because she is "worth more than rubies." -Whether or not a diamond ring ever replaces the ruby one, that isn't where her value lies. I think this is my sticking point in these conversations. I think the Duggars value all their children which is why I'm generally pro Duggar, they seem like a strong family but who knows? So much is in the motivation..... But the comments that tend to sometimes show up in these topics really discuss how we value women. And, as Christ seemed to value women regardless of whether they were married and Paul even said it was good to remain unmarried, I do not understand why we define someone's life as doing well if they marry... There is some kind of underlying issue there that I can't quite put my finger on. I apologize is I'm reading too much into your post but it seems like what we are really discussing here isn't the Duggars at all but more to whether or not this religion recognizes the wholeness of a woman as she is created, not just after she marries? Of course I didn't mean she was incomplete now and worth less. :0 It was just in response to all of the suggestions that she is a mere puppet in her parents' hands. I don't think so. I think she will find a great guy when the time is right, and do other things as well. I don't think anyone thinks women are only valuable when they get a man. But I do believe that God's plan for most people - men and women - includes marriage, because it is not good for man (or woman) to be alone in general. It's harder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I'd like to think you are "merely" naive about what is involved for an abuse victim to escape in this situation. However, you have a very long and vocal history of promoting this viewpoint - even for children/adults who were raised with an emotionally abusive and psychologically manipulative controlling perpetrator. callus is a much kinder appellation than I would apply. as an athlete, it begs the question how marketable of a degree it is. and if he's now following gothard, is he willing to use it? I can't imagine jb approving anyone who would 'allow' any of that. stockholm syndrome . . . . those who have such "callus" attitudes - are worse than not helpful. Calloused. And no, I am not. I am realistic though. I do know that people can break out of things they don't want to continue and I never assume everyone is a helpless victim of circumstances forever. The bolded is just ridiculous. You don't know where I come from, what I have overcome, and what I have seen overcome by others. But again, we were talking about JINGER. Not me. Edited June 21, 2016 by TranquilMind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I think some people go a little far in denying any possibility that she could make some decision that would turn out well for her, or end up in a relationship that could open things up for her. There are real barriers to that, yes, but that absolutly does not make it impossible. Some people do know their own minds, some people are relativly brave, just because they were born that way. And, you know, he might just be a nice guy by nature, and if he really likes her as a person, that could go a long way, even if he is also somewhat acceptable to her parents. He will quite possibly grow as a person over time as well. I also think, for the father, looking at a potential son in law, there is only so much prediction about whether he will toe the line that can be made. Maybe he seems to say the right things, but as a married man, maybe with a wife he really cares for, there will be a whole different set of influences. Givenm the number of kids in the family, chances are some will take a different path, one way or another. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 This wasn't really his stance? I think I'm more sheltered than I realize. Why does the world hate little girls so much? India. China. Middle East. And, apparently, here. :( I asked this once before and we had a lively discussion. I'll try to find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And where would she find those friends? With the supervision and control the parents have over their children, all friends would have to be approved by the parents. It is highly unlikely for the parents to allow their children to associate with someone outside of their cult. ETA: including their adult children. They are under their father's authority until they marry. I saw online that there was a camping trip in which other kids came along with the Duggars. Those must have been friends. I seriously doubt that they are prohibited from having friends. I do think maybe they are very busy with each other so the need is probably less than in smaller families. What exactly are the parameters of "under their father's authority"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegP Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The godly tomatoes book/author states that children do not need friends outside the family. She discourages participation in Sunday School, youth groups, AWANA, or any group that is "peer oriented." She is against children playing sports. So I would not be so quick to assume that the Dugger kids are allowed to have friends. Even if the Duggars get together with another (like minded) family, the children are likely supervised. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 No, the way these shows work, each separate household gets a check. She has no money of her own, everything belongs to her father. So he doesn't give the adults any of the money? That's hard to believe. Is he saving it in an account for them when they launch out? I hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) But she wasn't in her Bible - so essentially a defunct sector? Because I just don't see how if you're IN scripture that you can miss the parts about how God looks at the heart (motivation) of a man and ALL of everything about the Pharisees and legalism essentially leading to the death of faith. How acts do not lead to salvation and Christ's love and compassion for the weak, the crippled, the lowly, the sinners? So it is sects... But I don't understand, if these religions push scripture AND the people are reading their Bibles.... why are they so vulnerable to believing? (Keep in mind my background is cultural Catholic. When I came to a real faith in Christ as a salvation figure/Son of God verses viewing Him as something as a solely historical figurehead of the Church it was life altering. Our marriage is split in belief, me as a non-denominational Protestant and DH is no longer Catholic (due to hypocrisy between Church teaching and actual living out in family's lives but them wanting us to still belong to the Church for nothing other than belonging to the Church) but we do not attend any church at all and so I read scripture as essentially my teachings. The idea of not reading for oneself or just "falling for" a charismatic teacher without reading scripture and going THIS deep in on the say so of one person is weird. I have to assume these people have issues to begin with - like narcissism or some kind of deep need to belong/control/something.) Actually, in the ATI paradigm, parents are encourage to NOT look to scripture for help with parenting and marriage. They are told that BG has had additional revelation, ie his wisdom booklets and newsletters, to interpret scripture for their benefit and that doing what BG says is doing what God says. See the cult think at work? He even says in his writings that God gave him a special revelation on this stuff. And people fall for it. I have seen the effect of the scripture twisting, first hand, in a teen girl whom I tutored for awhile. I would trot out biblical Christian maxims and traditional Christian thinking (Mere Christianity-style; the big stuff on which we all agree and which we all have to believe to BE a Christian; I always carefully steered away from denominational differences). She never recognized any of it. She wouldn't know mainstream Christianity if she met it on the street. The verses with which she was familiar? She thought it meant something totally different, totally serving of patriarchy...she knew none of the attributes of Christ Himself. She didn't know his teachings, couldn't quote Him. All her belief centered on "God" not Christ, and God looked an awful lot like Bill Gothard. Her religion was reactionary, in response to the culture -- "how we think, who we judge, how we live" -- instead of predicated upon timeless truths. This was very upsetting to me. Gothard uses the word "defraud" to name what he claims girls do when they tempt boys to lust. But this is the actual defrauding: exchanging the reality of Jesus Christ for a lie in the minds of children, in order to manipulate, control, and abuse them. I got really invested in this problem as I was working with my young student. It occurred to me that I have yet to meet the first atheist who has a problem with anything that Jesus himself actually said (as recorded in the Bible). Problems with Paul and the other apostles? Yes. Problems with the biblical God? Yes. But the actual words-in-red attributed to the man Jesus are not usually under attack by anyone. They are largely seen as good and true, or at least as special or wise teachings, alongside the holy scripture of other major religions of the world. Since my student didn't know the Jesus I know, I introduced her to other sacred scripture of other religions (as part of our history studies) to see how she would interpret them, and react to them. She was able to see the beauty and timelessness in EACH. But when we turned to very similar passages in the Christian Bible, attributed to Jesus, up popped the brainwashing again and all she could even read was what Gothard told her those passages meant. This is why I think ATI is a cult. I will try to find you some links to a blog written by a pastor who got a hold of the wisdom booklets and tried to figure out Gothard's biblical interpretations. It's pretty shocking stuff. Edited to add links (disclaimer - I don't know Thing One about this pastor): http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/analyzing-bill-gothards-iblp-basic.html http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2011/08/bill-gothards-ati-textbook-examined.html Edited June 21, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I saw online that there was a camping trip in which other kids came along with the Duggars. Those must have been friends. I seriously doubt that they are prohibited from having friends. I do think maybe they are very busy with each other so the need is probably less than in smaller families. What exactly are the parameters of "under their father's authority"? What i meant by "those friends" were the friends a previous poster referred to as being able to help them escape from the cult. The only friends they are allowed to have are those in the same cult, with the same values and restrictions. JimBoob approved friends. Ones that won't have a "bad influence" on them, meaning encouraging them to question the BG group-think. The father's authority transfers to the husband upon marriage, if I recall correctly. But, anyone who wants to court a Duggar has to be JimBoob approved as well. And he does appear to hold some sway over one of the spouses due to financial support. So he doesn't give the adults any of the money? That's hard to believe. Is he saving it in an account for them when they launch out? I hope so. There is no launching-out like we think of it. The "launch" is getting married to an approved partner. They set them up in a home, but JB still controls the purse-strings. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 So he doesn't give the adults any of the money? That's hard to believe. Is he saving it in an account for them when they launch out? I hope so. Of course not. He's using it to support the whole family. If we want reality tv kids to be given the sorts of protection child actors have then we need to pass laws. National laws. In other news, I've just wasted an hour on FreeJinger where the rumor is that this man she's courting transferred to Syracuse for senior year because he was caught in bed with another boy... that his pastor father flipped out, refused the possibility of him being gay, and made him change schools. Which is terrible on several levels... for one, I was hoping that him having gone to Syracuse meant he had some hope of being outside the fundy fold, and that Jinger would get out too. Marrying someone who is lying about who he is won't help her be happy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yup, focusing on the outside is EXACTLY what they do. It's called 'countenance" as in, they MUST have a "joyful countenance" at ALL times. If you just found out you had a late miscarriage, were just beaten with a wooden spoon, whatever, you had better look "joyful" or you are going to hell. Seriously. Oh, and be "sweet". Women must always be "sweet". Really? They must look joyful or go to hell? Source? I've heard the sweet thing, but not that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 How lucky he got a university degree and a real job before realizing it was a sin. ;) Well - I thought the men are allowed to climb the highest mountains and achieve to their heart's content? I obviously don't know much about them - in fact only know about them because of this forum. The whole Gothardite / ATI thing is a shame. I could say more or use other words but then I'd be banned. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Of course not. He's using it to support the whole family. If we want reality tv kids to be given the sorts of protection child actors have then we need to pass laws. National laws. In other news, I've just wasted an hour on FreeJinger where the rumor is that this man she's courting transferred to Syracuse for senior year because he was caught in bed with another boy... that his pastor father flipped out, refused the possibility of him being gay, and made him change schools. Which is terrible on several levels... for one, I was hoping that him having gone to Syracuse meant he had some hope of being outside the fundy fold, and that Jinger would get out too. Marrying someone who is lying about who he is won't help her be happy. Well, if that is fact, that's a definite deal breaker for a potential husband and she is well out of it. They shouldn't be gossiping though. If it is fact, they should reveal the source. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 One of my best friends was in an abusive marriage. I can't even find the words to describe how this comment makes me feel. Did she get out? I hope he didn't kill her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Well, if that is fact, that's a definite deal breaker for a potential husband and she is well out of it. They shouldn't be gossiping though. If it is fact, they should reveal the source. I agree, they should cite the source. However, I will just point out that FreeJinger exposed the nasty stuff about Josh Duggar *long* before it came out officially. They seem to have inside sources or something. Just sayin'. Edited June 21, 2016 by Kinsa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I agree, they should cite the source. However, I will just point out that FreeJinger exposed the nasty stuff about Josh Duggar *long* before it came out officially. They seem to have inside sources or something like that at that site. I went to the site and put in some code words and couldn't find anything about the courtship where the guy was supposedly found in bed with another guy, as stated above. I didn't look at anything about Josh. Someone should have followed through on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) The other way people find out is when a person they know willingly joins the cult or is forced by spouse, or in my case was having trouble at the local PS so well meaning parents thought the answer was the innocent sounding parochial school in the next town over which turned out to be a horror show leaving me depressed, electively mute for a period of several weeks, and suicidal. But hey, the school won an award from BG himself for teachig his "wisdom". Sigh..... It is one reason I speak out on these threads. I would give anything for the court of public opinion to so severely scorch this organization that it disappears from the world, its materials no longer published, its followers left without support or validation. Faith, I knew you had a lot of knowledge about the Gothard / ATI structure but I never knew you acquired it first hand through a Gothard - sponsored school. I am so sorry - and so glad you got out of it. Edited June 21, 2016 by Liz CA 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnthemLights Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Hugs to you and all the other abuse survivors on here. It is so good to hear your stories so we can be vigilant. I am like a lot of other believers and err on the side of assuming the best of people and their motivations until proven otherwise, but wisdom is needed too and in cases like this where the trail of abuse in the ideology is long and with many casualties it does become very hard to assume that anyone who is more than casually associated with these groups isn't deeply involved, just because of how these work. It's a hard swallow, but I owe a lot of my personal awakening to these kinds of conservative religious predators to people like Faith who present their stories and evidence of abuses associated with these groups. It also becomes easier to tease out who is a decent person and in a conservative faith from who is an a wolf in a flock and using it for cover, because common traits pop up again and again. These discussions have also really opened my eyes to the importance of knowing where my kids are at church at all times, keeping teaching and childcare two deep, and examining any materials that claim to have 'the key' to life and godliness with a skeptical and critical eye, against the bible all the time. I'm still a very conservative Christian doctrinally but I'm a more more aware, vigilant one because of stories and cautions from women on boards like these. So thank you for sharing - all of you! :iagree: a hundred percent. My family was on the fringe of the Bill Gothard movement. My parents used the ATI wisdom books (gotten free from a friend) as part of our home schooling. I really appreciated them - as a student and later on as a parent. It came as such a shock to me when years later I started researching ATI and stumbled upon all the nastiness and creepiness. It was devastating to me as a young Christian. That something so beautiful on the outside could be so vile on the inside. It was also a good lesson in not looking to a person or organization or movement. On being a student of the Bible so that I can check everything against what God actually said rather than just relying on what someone else says He says. It also gave me compassion for those who got sucked into it. :crying: Edited for spelling Edited June 21, 2016 by AnthemLights 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I went to the site and put in some code words and couldn't find anything about the courtship where the guy was supposedly found in bed with another guy, as stated above. I didn't look at anything about Josh. Someone should have followed through on that. I'm more of an occasional FJ lurker than frequent poster, so I don't know how to go to a specific comment, but there's a link quoted on this page: http://www.freejinger.org/topic/27295-jinger-is-courting-she-did-ride-20/?page=6 ETA: discusses how his church "saves" gay people, not his personal past. Edited June 21, 2016 by Katy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I'm more of an occasional FJ lurker than frequent poster, so I don't know how to go to a specific comment, but there's a link quoted on this page: http://www.freejinger.org/topic/27295-jinger-is-courting-she-did-ride-20/?page=6 ETA: discusses how his church "saves" gay people, not his personal past. I can't find a link anywhere . Yes, it doesn't appear to be about him, looking elsewhere. Just the church. ETA: People do come out of a desire to pursue gay encounters. It happens, just like they come out of other things, like drinking, or sleeping around, or being a controlling person, (or a thousand other things). God changes one's heart, not any church. So the church isn't saving anyone. Just FYI and only mention it because of the "church "saving" gay people" comment. Edited June 21, 2016 by TranquilMind 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) The godly tomatoes book/author states that children do not need friends outside the family. She discourages participation in Sunday School, youth groups, AWANA, or any group that is "peer oriented." She is against children playing sports. So I would not be so quick to assume that the Dugger kids are allowed to have friends. Even if the Duggars get together with another (like minded) family, the children are likely supervised.Well some context may be important in having that make sense. We also don't do peer based groups with few exceptions - I don't see a lot of good coming from roving packs of peers and it's one reason we homeschool. Age diverse groups are better for teaching maturity and empathy for those younger and older than you. Also, beyond a certain number of kids it's truly difficult to balance the demands of sports and hobbies for so many people, let alone the financials. Organized sports that aren't more family based or have broader age groups are pretty much out for us. Swimming was a life skill and had family based instruction/setup, and worked. My kids also do ballet and piano, again because were able to work it financially and the group activities are well supervise and controlled. We are in a church social group called a community group that our kids get to play with all the other children and again, it's supervised for crowd control purposes. We have other families who we are friends with and we play together and do outings frequently. Until this year we were in an excellent non-religious homeschool co op that was well supervised and had age specific activities, but was still run by families and with parents managing it. All this to say that we are a family who has used RGT and swears by some of those principles - and yet our kids have friends, activities, social outings, etc, all within the basic framework of family first. Just because you're reading it doesn't mean you necessarily see all the nuance of how individuals apply it to their lives. Chew the meat and spit out the bones, essentially. My kids also wear pants, watch Miyazaki movies, scooter and bike around the neighborhood with minimal direct supervision, and half our homeschooler programs are non-religious. You cannot easily pigeon hole people as being 100% this or that by one commonality. That goes both ways - families are unique and looking at some factors in isolation misses the whole picture and is inaccurate. To some extent that is what happened with the Duggars, the other direction. We saw a few things that seemed harmless or quaint, even appealing, and didn't catch the undercurrents that supported and guided those aspects we noted on the show. We saw some pieces but only those familiar with the history and ideology could see the problem they turned out to be. In isolation and with careful filming it wasn't obvious to an outsider how messed up the entire ATI thing was, and how deep they were into it. I think prudence goes both ways in how we assess people we don't personally know. Judging anyone on isolated aspects of their lives isn't a great strategy. Sorry for the off topic bunny trail - I wanted to be fair in addressing this :). Moving on now. Edited June 21, 2016 by Arctic Mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Of course I didn't mean she was incomplete now and worth less. :0 It was just in response to all of the suggestions that she is a mere puppet in her parents' hands. I don't think so. I think she will find a great guy when the time is right, and do other things as well. I don't think anyone thinks women are only valuable when they get a man. But I do believe that God's plan for most people - men and women - includes marriage, because it is not good for man (or woman) to be alone in general. It's harder. It's interesting. I read 1 Cor. 7:8 and I think that maybe it isn't - service devoted to the Lord instead of real and fallible people. :) In my weakest moments I admit I do think that reason Paul and Corrie were so very holy was because they weren't parents. ;) (Said tongue in cheek with the tiniest bit of sarcastic truth.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 :iagree: a hundred percent. My family was on the fringe of the Bill Gothard movement. My parents used the ATI wisdom books (gotten free from a friend) as part of our home schooling. I really appreciated them - as a student and later on as a parent. It came as such a shock to me when years later I started researching ATI and stumbled upon all the nastiness and creepiness. It was devastating to me as you young Christian. That something so beautiful on the outside could be so vile on the inside. It was also a good lesson in not looking to a person or organization or movement. On being a student of the Bible so that I can check everything against what God actually said rather than just relying on what someone else says He says. It also gave me compassion for those who got sucked into it. :crying: Yes, me too. Jesus has a lot to say about this in Matthew 23 (snipped for brevity and focus). There is a lot that every man (woman) has to examine in his own heart, whether he has failed in "justice and mercy and faith" through the scriptures. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it; but do not do as they do, for they do not practice what they teach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,[a] and lay them on the shoulders of others; but they themselves are unwilling to lift a finger to move them. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others; for they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long. 6 They love to have the place of honor at banquets and the best seats in the synagogues, 7 and to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces, and to have people call them rabbi. 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students.[b] 9 And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah.[c] 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 All who exalt themselves will be humbled, and all who humble themselves will be exalted. .....(snip) 13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you lock people out of the kingdom of heaven. For you do not go in yourselves, and when others are going in, you stop them.[d] 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cross sea and land to make a single convert, and you make the new convert twice as much a child of hell[e] as yourselves. (Snip) 1 23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. It is these you ought to have practiced without neglecting the others. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel! 25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup,[f] so that the outside also may become clean. 27 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I asked this once before and we had a lively discussion. I'll try to find it. Will it disgust me? Warn me now. The last thing I need to read is how men hate women because they represent such a sexual temptation including young ones. The guy in the news now, the one with 12 "daughters and grand-daughters" who was ex-Amish, married, and received a 14yo girl as a parting gift for getting their parents out of a financial fix? Yeah, that one makes me sick. Some days I wonder how I am supposed to raise whole, healthy, strong, capable, individual young women in a world that seems dead set on blaming them for their own vices OR keeping them beneath them OR alternatively women who hate the idea of serving others. There seems to be no balance, no sense of sanity. I read what happens to little girls in other countries and I honestly would like to just adopt them all. ALL. Every one of them. And just teach them what is real - that they are image-bearers, made in the image of God, beautiful and not responsible for other people vices and weaknesses. They are not created to be used, be abused, be hated, be despised. :( And when I'm done being sad, I'm just really, really angry. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 It's interesting. I read 1 Cor. 7:8 and I think that maybe it isn't - service devoted to the Lord instead of real and fallible people. :) In my weakest moments I admit I do think that reason Paul and Corrie were so very holy was because they weren't parents. ;) (Said tongue in cheek with the tiniest bit of sarcastic truth.) Lol. Oh, right there with you. I must confess that I have (tongue in cheek) said that Jesus may have been tempted in all ways and didn't sin, but he never had a teenage daughter. ;) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Will it disgust me? Warn me now. The last thing I need to read is how men hate women because they represent such a sexual temptation including young ones. The guy in the news now, the one with 12 "daughters and grand-daughters" who was ex-Amish, married, and received a 14yo girl as a parting gift for getting their parents out of a financial fix? Yeah, that one makes me sick. Some days I wonder how I am supposed to raise whole, healthy, strong, capable, individual young women in a world that seems dead set on blaming them for their own vices OR keeping them beneath them OR alternatively women who hate the idea of serving others. There seems to be no balance, no sense of sanity. I read what happens to little girls in other countries and I honestly would like to just adopt them all. ALL. Every one of them. And just teach them what is real - that they are image-bearers, made in the image of God, beautiful and not responsible for other people vices and weaknesses. They are not created to be used, be abused, be hated, be despised. :( And when I'm done being sad, I'm just really, really angry. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 uh, yes. they WILL be shunned by their entire family if they have the audacity to leave. their siblings will "love them" by backing the parents in their efforts to coerce them to return. they will face enormous pressure. Source for this assertion? The Duggars practice shunning? Seems odd,considering that their own son who has done some terrible things has not been shunned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm more of an occasional FJ lurker than frequent poster, so I don't know how to go to a specific comment, but there's a link quoted on this page: http://www.freejinger.org/topic/27295-jinger-is-courting-she-did-ride-20/?page=6 ETA: discusses how his church "saves" gay people, not his personal past. http://www.freejinger.org/topic/27295-jinger-is-courting-she-did-ride-20/?page=2 On this page it quotes from a Wiki page (not sure what wiki page) that it was Jeremy that supposedly had a gay relationship/experience and was forced to change colleges by his father b/c of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 That is just like Raising Godly Tomatoes-the kids are not allowed to be grumpy or sad or anything but happy and sweet or they get punished (spanked) or put in the corner until they are "sweet." Ugh. I recently came across a book review written by a woman who grew up with that tomatoes lady and her family..so tragic. On another note, I find it interesting that the ATI camp is in Michigan which is also where the author of Raising Godly Tomatoes lives. What happened to the tomatoes lady and her family? I googled but didn't find anything except some links for that book (which I never read). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I can't find a link anywhere . Yes, it doesn't appear to be about him, looking elsewhere. Just the church. ETA: People do come out of a desire to pursue gay encounters. It happens, just like they come out of other things, like drinking, or sleeping around, or being a controlling person, (or a thousand other things). God changes one's heart, not any church. So the church isn't saving anyone. Just FYI and only mention it because of the "church "saving" gay people" comment. Yeah, I agree with you there about getting saved. I was just quoting said thread. There are pages and pages. Apparently the story about him changing schools after being caught in bed with a boy came from someone who posted a comment about it on People Magazine's web story, who lived in the dorm & knew the story. Apparently it was widely "known" on campus at the time. Having said that, I have a couple friends whose husbands left after they decided they were gay. In their 20's they'd decided to stay in the closet. In their 30's they fell in love with a guy and couldn't ignore their orientation any longer. So if I were in Jinger's shoes and heard he had this past, there is no way I would marry him, no matter how hot he is. It's not like he's in this loving, supportive family who will be on his side no matter what. Either follow their exact interpretation of the Bible OR he's going to hell. They're coercing him into pretending to be straight. Even if he's bi, or if it was temporary experimentation, he believes it was just a sinful lark, not an identity that's okay. Either way, whether he's lying to himself or just to her, it's not a decent way to start a marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I went to the site and put in some code words and couldn't find anything about the courtship where the guy was supposedly found in bed with another guy, as stated above. I didn't look at anything about Josh. Someone should have followed through on that. I don't remember all the details, but it was several years before it came out on the mainstream media. Someone there knew about the sexual abuse Josh inflicted on his sisters, and they knew about it being reported to the police, and they knew about how it was hushed up. It was written out in full detail on some sort of message board, if I recall. I remember reading it and thinking there was NO WAY that was true, it was just some internet troll making things up, etc. Years later it ALL turned out to be true. Some people surmised that it was the cousin Amy who was posting it. Not sure about all that though. So yeah, people WERE following up on it. It was hushed up. Thankfully the truth finally did come out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The godly tomatoes book/author states that children do not need friends outside the family. She discourages participation in Sunday School, youth groups, AWANA, or any group that is "peer oriented." She is against children playing sports. So I would not be so quick to assume that the Dugger kids are allowed to have friends. Even if the Duggars get together with another (like minded) family, the children are likely supervised. This is wrong, btw. I've known her online since before her kids were married. She does indeed encourage the families to keep their kids close and encourage them to be friends with their sibs (who wouldn't want that) rather than seek outside friendships when they are younger. It makes for a closer knit family and children are more likely to seek the approval of peers over being darlings to their sibs - trust me on this one. Stick your sibs in with a group of a couple seven to twelve year olds and see if your 7yo is just as sweet and willing to play with sibs. *However* they do actively get together with other families (and yes, like-minded) which is how their kids met their later spouses. I think four (?) of her children are married now. I do also know the book was written before her kids were terribly old - I think her oldest was 18/19 at the time of writing? Viewpoints definitely mold, reform, gain shape once you realize what was a theory is now in action and all of a sudden your teen child doesn't have a group of young adults their own age to spend time with and discuss ideas and thoughts and, eventually, meet someone special. While our oldest daughter did gymnastics, tumbling, trampoline, and soccer, we really only spent time with families with kids. My children weren't unsupervised at other people's homes. (Granted, this was because of my own experiences outside of my parents' protection as a child with "trusted" people) but also because we were hoping to foster a close knit family where the sibs didn't reject one another as playmates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvToRead Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Did she get out? I hope he didn't kill her. No, he accidentally killed himself. Although he repeatedly threatened to kill her and their son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Will it disgust me? Warn me now. The last thing I need to read is how men hate women because they represent such a sexual temptation including young ones. The guy in the news now, the one with 12 "daughters and grand-daughters" who was ex-Amish, married, and received a 14yo girl as a parting gift for getting their parents out of a financial fix? Yeah, that one makes me sick. Some days I wonder how I am supposed to raise whole, healthy, strong, capable, individual young women in a world that seems dead set on blaming them for their own vices OR keeping them beneath them OR alternatively women who hate the idea of serving others. There seems to be no balance, no sense of sanity. I read what happens to little girls in other countries and I honestly would like to just adopt them all. ALL. Every one of them. And just teach them what is real - that they are image-bearers, made in the image of God, beautiful and not responsible for other people vices and weaknesses. They are not created to be used, be abused, be hated, be despised. :( And when I'm done being sad, I'm just really, really angry. No, nothing disgusting (of course, I can't find it). I asked why, throughout history and in nearly all cultures, women are considered less. I think we decided that pregnancy and mothering (having a child physically dependent) put us at a physical disadvantage. Biologically, we need protection at certain times. There is probably more but that is all I remember now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) http://www.freejinger.org/topic/27295-jinger-is-courting-she-did-ride-20/?page=2 On this page it quotes from a Wiki page (not sure what wiki page) that it was Jeremy that supposedly had a gay relationship/experience and was forced to change colleges by his father b/c of it. It says this: Theory has it that he was caught with another soccer player and was yanked from Hartwick by his father (who is also a pastor) and that's why he transferred to Syracuse. His father sent him on a mission before he transferred to Syracuse. Apparently the mission/ministry place shares the same building as Fingers McPervy's PrayHab!! He's already being called out for being G-A-Y. Next person asks for a source for this information. No source is given. Of course the whole page begins with this, so I am not exactly expecting unbiased information: "Watching Watch What Happens Live with Andy Cohen on Bravo and Jinger was the "Jackhole of the Day." Andy first deliberately mispronounced the Duggar name and then called out how weird Jinger is with a J. Then, he gave props for Jeremy at least being hot." This is all I can find, where it says that he transferred from Hartwick to Syracuse: http://www.inquisitr.com.leechlink.net/3219368/jinger-duggars-boyfriend-jeremy-vuolo-spent-night-in-jail-drank-and-partied-in-college/ Edited June 21, 2016 by TranquilMind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 No, he accidentally killed himself. Although he repeatedly threatened to kill her and their son. Well, she is free now, I guess. That's awful all around. Was she planning to leave when this happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvToRead Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Well, she is free now, I guess. That's awful all around. Was she planning to leave when this happened? I don't really want to get into details. It was one the most heartbreaking experiences I have ever been involved with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yeah, I agree with you there about getting saved. I was just quoting said thread. There are pages and pages. Apparently the story about him changing schools after being caught in bed with a boy came from someone who posted a comment about it on People Magazine's web story, who lived in the dorm & knew the story. Apparently it was widely "known" on campus at the time. Having said that, I have a couple friends whose husbands left after they decided they were gay. In their 20's they'd decided to stay in the closet. In their 30's they fell in love with a guy and couldn't ignore their orientation any longer. So if I were in Jinger's shoes and heard he had this past, there is no way I would marry him, no matter how hot he is. It's not like he's in this loving, supportive family who will be on his side no matter what. Either follow their exact interpretation of the Bible OR he's going to hell. They're coercing him into pretending to be straight. Even if he's bi, or if it was temporary experimentation, he believes it was just a sinful lark, not an identity that's okay. Either way, whether he's lying to himself or just to her, it's not a decent way to start a marriage. Well, if it is true - and we don't know- yes, absolute deal breaker. How can you conclude his parents do not love or support him? Or do you mean they are only considered loving and supporting if they approve of homosexuality as a legitimate life for a Christian (on the latter, I disagree, but this is not the scope of this thread)? Boy, I can't imagine a bigger betrayal than what happened to your friends though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I don't really want to get into details. It was one the most heartbreaking experiences I have ever been involved with. All right. I'm sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 What happened to the tomatoes lady and her family? I googled but didn't find anything except some links for that book (which I never read). The forum closed about a year ago I believe? She's busy with life - caretaking as well as helping with kids, grandkids, etc. if I remember everything correctly. I had been spending less time on there at the end - after a while you kind of know what to do with the 11th toddler and how to juggle a baby, a toddler, and two pre-schoolers at the grocery store, lol. I do not know the book well. Honestly, I read it lightly when the book came out originally. (Was that 2000 or 2001?) But I got a very thorough feel of it after 15 years on the forum. She just did not come off as a harsh human being. I never met her or her kids in real life but I have a very close IRL friendship that came out of that board and I adore that family - wife, husband, and kids. It also helped me a ton with practical advice on how to juggle and homeschool and (try) to care for a house when you're vastly outnumbered, lol. It was a whole lot of common sense and sanity and I think, mostly, balance. A balance between discipline and being a nutjob and swinging too far the other way. (I was very liberally "grace based" parenting when I was seeking another way to parent. We had a "comfy" room complete with soft toys, candles, nice music, etc., you know, for when Ana needed to relax because she was having a "hard" day and felt the need to smack her mama or scream at her, or both. This parenting thing has been a lot more like Toad's wild ride.) What I appreciated the most was her telling me that 90% of problems could be headed off if you just kept your kiddos close to you and she was so right for me. No need to get upset that Junior got X out again for the 10th time if he was in the room. You just head it off. No need to get frustrated for the 4yo splashing water all over the floor if you just take a good book in the bathroom and read while she plays tugboat. It was good advice. That and have your kiddos work with you while YOU have a good attitude. They'll learn to love work - for the enjoyment of spending time with a cheerful parent and to like a job well done. I already knew that one from spending time with my Dad helping him out with anything but when you're a mom with 1,000 things to do, you really need to hear that they need spending that time with and that it is more important than getting the job done fast or well, and that they know, intrinsically know, when they've done a job well and receive praise for a job well done. (Vs. empty praise.) I'm grateful for those things and cannot paint her with the same brush as legalistic people who never examined the importance of relationships over checking a list. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvToRead Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 All right. I'm sorry. Nothing to be sorry about. I just know it's not easy to leave an abusive husband. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Faith, I knew you had a lot of knowledge about the Gothard / ATI structure but I never knew you acquired it first hand through a Gothard - sponsored school. I am so sorry - and so glad you got out of it. Thank you. It was a horror. But thankfully, while other students spent years in that god forsaken place, my parents realized what was happening to me and got me out ASAP. I ended up at another private, and conservative parochial school because they wouldn't allow me to go back to the PS, but it was accredited and I graduated early on an accelerated pace with DE. Though they were a bit too rule oriented for me, strict dress codes and such, they weren't abusive so I did come around. But I think that is because of the limited exposure. If I'd been in it for years, I can only imagine how damaged I'd be. At this point in my life, it's like some cloudy, crazy dream, a blip on my radar. So very glad it is is that way! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Nothing to be sorry about. I just know it's not easy to leave an abusive husband. I know that too. It is done every day. Shelters are full. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 It is done every day. Shelters are full. And what percentage of abuse survivors do you think those full shelters represent? When you say things like this, it sounds like "bootstraps", like "only stupid, weak people stay", like "there's no reason to stay unless you like it". Maybe that's not what you intend, but that's how it sounds. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuvToRead Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And what percentage of abuse survivors do you think those full shelters represent? When you say things like this, it sounds like "bootstraps", like "only stupid, weak people stay", like "there's no reason to stay unless you like it". Maybe that's not what you intend, but that's how it sounds. And let's not forget how many woman are in a cemetery because they died trying to get out. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And let's not forget how many woman are in a cemetery because they died trying to get out. That is statistically the most dangerous time. The trying to get out, trying to get established elsewhere. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 And let's not forget how many woman are in a cemetery because they died trying to get out. And if I recall, the statistic for women who return to the abusive partner after being in a shelter is rather high. I think I heard that it takes an average of 3-5 visits to the shelter before women leave permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 That is statistically the most dangerous time. The trying to get out, trying to get established elsewhere. Up to 75% of women who are murdered by abusive partners are killed after they leave. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 balance between discipline and being a nutjob and swinging too far the other way. (I was very liberally "grace based" parenting when I was seeking another way to parent. We had a "comfy" room complete with soft toys, candles, nice music, etc., you know, for when Ana needed to relax because she was having a "hard" day and felt the need to smack her mama or scream at her, or both. This parenting thing has been a lot more like Toad's wild ride.) What I appreciated the most was her telling me that 90% of problems could be headed off if you just kept your kiddos close to you and she was so right for me. No need to get upset that Junior got X out again for the 10th time if he was in the room. You just head it off. No need to get frustrated for the 4yo splashing water all over the floor if you just take a good book in the bathroom and read while she plays tugboat. It was good advice. That and have your kiddos work with you while YOU have a good attitude. They'll learn to love work - for the enjoyment of spending time with a cheerful parent and to like a job well done. I already knew that one from spending time with my Dad helping him out with anything but when you're a mom with 1,000 things to do, you really need to hear that they need spending that time with and that it is more important than getting the job done fast or well, and that they know, intrinsically know, when they've done a job well and receive praise for a job well done. (Vs. empty praise.) I'm grateful for those things and cannot paint her with the same brush as legalistic people who never examined the importance of relationships over checking a list This was what I liked about her, too. I thought the "tomato staking" concept was brilliant and I used it over and over again when my kids were small. I didn't call it that; I called it "my best buddy." So, I would say, "Cw, you're going to be my best buddy today. You do everything with me." To me, this dovetailed perfectly with what Joanne called "Get-Off-Your-Butt" parenting, the other brilliant parenting concept. Because, truly, it is way easier to correct a problem when it happens a foot away from you, and it is easy to GOYB when they are already right there next to you. Somewhere in there, the kids also learned that laundry doesn't wash itself and weeds don't jump out of the garden magically. It was a win-win. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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