frugalmamatx Posted June 8, 2016 Share Posted June 8, 2016 Boy that title is a mouthful! I have a few years yet {dd is in 5th but working on a 6th grade level}, but wanted to pick your brains so I have time to buy materials ahead at sales. I've been reading back posts on the forums today as it's too hot to do anything else right now, and also thinking ahead to high school. I stumbled across these two threads: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/419375-oldschool-homeschool-so-of-another-thread/?hl=+oldschooling and http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/418535-long-time-hsers-what-are-your-tried-and-true-programsmethods/?hl=+oldschooling and it got me thinking. For those of you who oldschool homeschool for highschool, what do you use? How do you do it? I would assume oldschool homeschool at the high school level means no co-op {I know for us it will mean that}. How do you cover needed subjects at the high school level without farming things out? Is oldschool homeschool possible at the high school level? I'm assuming Saxon math would probably be on that list, since it's been around a long time. But what else would be on there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Well, I would only use "vintage" (lol) materials such as Saxon if they were the best fit for my student. ? Honestly, the curriculum market for homeschoolers has been booming for the past 15 years, and probably will continue to do so for years, so by the time your student reaches high school level in 3 years, many of the things people suggest now may be no longer available, OR, a whole new batch of low-cost or even free resources may be available to you that aren't out there yet. :) So that does make it hard to advise. ? Also, what works now for your student may not be at ALL a fit for the student in a few years -- students can change a LOT in these grades! I would advise HOLDING OFF on trying to buy ahead for high school. In fact, I don't tend to recommend buying ahead more than 1 year. Your homeschooling situation or specific needs may change. And if you're financially tight, you don't want to have invested in a lot of old curriculum that is taking up space for years and then can't be used (or resold because it's so old!) for whatever reason. Even "classic" curriculum like Saxon goes through revisions, and people really don't want the older editions, so if you wait until you need it, or are within a year of needing it, you may find someone will just GIVE you their old Saxon to get it off their shelf. ? And if you're working under a tight budget, by NOT buying years ahead allows you to use more $$ right now to meet your student's current educational and extracurricular needs. ? We can probably better help you if we understand what your motivation is for "old style" homeschooling: - finances? -- you're thinking older materials will be cheaper? - live in a rural or remote area? -- you're thinking participation with other homeschoolers won't be an option? - poor internet service? -- you're thinking online resources or classes aren't an option? - lifestyle choice? -- your family's choice is solo-learning/not outsourcing? - tiny house? -- you only have room for minimal materials? - desire? -- you just want to "old style" homeschool? From your board name, I'm guessing finances (by choice or necessity) play a big role in your question, so I'll respond accordingly. But first, :grouphug: and sympathy if your family is in a tight financial situation! I guess we were sort of "old school" in homeschooling high school, as we didn't have any co-ops, and only outsourced the Foreign Language for both of our DSs (2 semesters each of dual enrollment at the local community college), and did everything else at home. But that was because we were finishing up high school right before the boom in online classes. If those options had been available earlier, I definitely would have outsourced a few other classes here and there. It is so helpful to high school students to have a few outsourced opportunities, to learn classroom skills, online class skills, learn from someone from a different perspective and knowledge base, and have to be responsible for turning in work to someone other than mom and receiving feedback from someone other than mom. All of that is great prep for either college or the workplace! We used textbooks for some courses such as Math (no Saxon here as it was NOT a fit for either DS ? ) and Science. I did buy kits for the lab portion of Science; you could streamline and do fewer labs and watch free dissections on Frog Guts or Virtual Lab. There are free online textbooks from CK-12 Flexbooks -- in Math, Science, English, and History. We used the Teaching Company Great Course lecture series for Economics, plus a few books. I bought used at Amazon for $30 and resold it afterwards for $30. We used involvement in the extracurricular activity of YMCA Youth & Gov't, plus a $5 textbook for the Government credit -- two families in our delegation were so financially tight that they asked for and received scholarships from the YMCA to participate. Literature and Writing are my strengths and loves, so I tended to "do-it-yourself" for our English credits. I bought used books from the local second hand store or from online used sellers; many older classics can be read for free online through Gutenberg or other free public domain book websites -- there also some free audio books of classics that can be listened to online or downloaded. ? There are a lot of free Lit. guide resources out there -- Glencoe Literature Library (middle/high school books); Penguin teacher guides (high school/college); Pink Monkey (high school/college); Sparknotes and Cliff's Notes (high school/college). And online-searching will often turn up free Youtube lectures on various classics, or free teacher plans for various works of Literature. For the Writing portion of the English credit, The Owl at Purdue (Online Writing Lab) is a free website with articles of instruction and examples on just about every writing topic imaginable -- I use that a lot now while teaching my co-op classes. ? There are also lots of free resources to teach different types of writing; for example, here is the Five Paragraph Essay Wizard website, with explanations and prompts for assignments. Easy Peasy has complete lesson plans for FREE homeschooling of high school, using all free online resources. You may find that when the time comes for high school, you actually *will* be able to outsource through one of these methods -- or some new option not yet out there: - local co-op = ask for a scholarship; or ask for help with transportation if that is the issue - trade teaching with another homeschooler = you teach your strong subject(s) to both your student and theirs, and they teach both students in the other parents strong area(s) - local tutor = barter/trade house cleaning or other in exchange for lessons/tutoring for your student - local school = many high schools allow homeschoolers to take 1-2 classes for free with their students - online free co-op = Virtual Homeschool Co-op - some states offer free dual enrollment courses at the local Community College (so, simultaneous high school AND college credit) For help in teaching those harder courses, there are LOADS of quality free online video tutorials for teaching/explaining most high school subjects. Khan Academy and Hippo Campus are two that leap to mind -- they each have a variety of subjects; For Science you might check out the videos at Georgia Public Broadcasting Ed for Chemistry and Physics. You can also use free MOOC (Mass Open Online Courses) such as Coursera, or open source lectures available from many universities -- see Online Educational database, National Repository of Online Courses, and iTunes U, Here's a source for free open course high school courses: UC College Prep. And there are a ton of video tutorials out there on specific subjects -- try an online search -- or ask here! -- to find help for specific topics. If poor internet connection is the problem, or, if you can't/don't want to outsource, there are a number of programs out there with video lessons, and you can look for earlier editions to buy used quite cheaply -- things like Saxon DIVE CDs, Teaching Textbooks, Chalkdust, Thinkwell, etc. There are also Teaching Company Great Courses lecture series, often available through your local library, or buy used fairly cheaply. Are there any other homeschoolers in your area -- you might be able to borrow or swap curriculum if your student and their students are staggered in ages/grades. You might also enjoy reading through these past threads on homeschooling with little or no outsourcing:"Homeschool high school without DE (or very little) - mom freak out moment" "High school…actually mostly at home??" "Does anyone homeschool high school without the help of outside or online classes?" On "Oldschooling":"Oldschool Homeschool S/O of another thread" "Oldschool curricula to support a Bible and a library card" And these past threads on homeschooling high school for a low cost:"Homeschooling high school on a very tigt budget, the duct tape and WD40 way" "Good free/cheap high school courses online??" "Rigorous high school (esp. 9th and 10th) on a shoe string" "Can I get some help putting together some free/low cost 10th grade curriculum?" "High school on a budget" "Favorite cheap/free high school resources… favorites?" "Free self ed?" -- MANY of the suggestions can easily be used for high school Edited September 10, 2018 by Lori D. 20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pistachio mom Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 What an awesome amount of helpful information! :hurray: A few more ideas: If you the teacher do not have an expertise in a subject, buy curriculum written to the student or specifically for a homeschooling parent to teach. For example, Apologia science is written to the student and in a conversational tone. I have also used Answers in Genesis and Masters books among lots of other resources from the Well Trained Mind's old edition lists. For math, there really are so many choices. Know your children's learning style and just be a researcher. The math mammoth website has lots of great information in their resource section. I use BJ Press math, but that will probably change once we get past Alg 2. My point is, it is possible to adapt teaching from an inexpensive/old edition textbook, but if you can find something already a good fit and buy it used or scratch and dent, it will make your year a lot smoother. AS the parent, you have to make the calls of what is appropriate based on the times. For subjects where you are gifted, you can be more creative. For history and literature, we have use a spine of specific world events/dates or literary works and work from there using library books. I have always done this until this last school year. We switched to Veritas Press for self paced online courses. I needed my high school student to learn how to listen to lectures and take notes, etc. I could and can make the old way work, but I also have a 2 younger children who need to learn arithmetic and phonics. Some ideas for history through literature titles would be Beautiful Feet Books, the Tapestry of Grace website for ideas for book lists, Sonlight, the Veritas Press catalog. Our library also has a lot of Great Courses from the Teaching Company. These can be checked out for a month at a time and then renewed. The post above has tons of very good ideas in this area. Getting on the "Homeschool Freebies" email list gives options for lots of free e-book style materials - many very appropriate for middle school and high school. I buy a lot of used books and use them in my homeschool for a fraction of the price of new. But good curriculum does help one to avoid gaps. I also love the products from Memoria Press. I think old-school style teaching where the parent physically sits there and carefully teaches can and does definitely work! Quality homeschool education does not have to involve coops and online classes. The coops can really hog time and run your curriculum choices. But having outside help can make the upper level years much easier. Also, other teacher can be good role models. I know I can teach a lot. But it is hard to keep all 3 of my children in forward gear at the same time is challenging. Your children are close enough in age - and old enough - that you can probably teach most everything yourself for a long time because they can work together or at least start out together. Sometimes, an outside teacher - even online - can be a help in giving assignments that are accepted without complaining. As you go into the high school years, you will evaluate one year at a time; when, if at all, to pull in outside supplementation for teaching. Good luck in your research as you carefully plan one year at a time. :laugh: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 :lurk5: I'm not exactly an expert here, but my oldest is using Ambleside Online with no co-op/outsourced classes. With 5 kids, I just don't have time or energy for co-ops and we can't afford outsourced classes. She does a lot of volunteer work + a youth group + a sport. It does feel like we are the only ones IRL not outsourcing our classes. The other high schoolers we've encountered use Penn Foster, an online school or dual enrollment for high school. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 We've always used co-ops. They have been a big part of our homeschool over the years. But as my oldest starts official high school next year, her co-op involvement is going to drop considerably. I can't afford expensive co-ops that do all of the teaching and grading, and ours doesn't offer much I need for her. She will do her labs for science at co-op next year, and that is all. Everything else will be at home with old fashioned books no online classes. We can't dual enroll in our area until 11th grade, so we will look into that then. She does have extra curriculars, but not credit classes outsourced. My dd11 will still do a whole day at co-op. Her science will be on their schedule. I teach latin at her level there, which keeps us on track. And she will get an art class, PE, language club (a semester of Spanish and a semester of Roman history/culture,) and whatever else is available next year for a full day. The odd will only attend for the morning for her class. And she will attend parties and field trips and teen nights and things like that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted June 9, 2016 Share Posted June 9, 2016 (edited) Yes, you can certainly work out tentative plans for high school, but personally I wouldn't buy ahead unless you find a truly, truly phenomenal deal on a true classic. I once found a Jacobs Geometry set at a sale for $10 when mine were in grade school and snapped it up. If we didn't need it, I knew that it had good resale value. As it turned out, one of mine did need it (Saxon didn't work at all for her to a point), and I just resold it for considerably more than I paid. And keep in mind that there are options for classes sometimes. I bartered for years for piano lessons. I brought the teacher (an older single lady) two dinners in exchange for a weekly lesson. I just made more food than usual and took her what we ate. She charged $5/month "for the books." Later on, I taught classes in an area I'm strong in for classes that I'm not strong in. One local class one of mine wanted in an area I'm not strong in was very willing to take monthly payments. The teacher was a long-term friend, and I was very careful to keep up my side of the agreement. For me at least, doing some outsourcing even with a tight budget was doable, but I did have to work at it. Edited June 9, 2016 by G5052 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosaicmind Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 We aren't outsourcing anything for either of our boys, who will be in 9th and 10th this coming year. First of all, I cannot afford it! Everything is double or triple what I would pay just to get the text, solutions, tests, dvds, etc for any course. I'm disabled recently and cannot drive so going to co-ops or cc is not possible. Also, due to me being disabled we live on one income and since I have huge med bills and most recently dh has been diagnosed diabetic, his scripts are close to $1k/mo, there's no extra to pay for co-ops classes, online, or cc. This year was my very first to homeschool high school. Our oldest 3 chose public hs and number 4/daughter did American School (never again), and lastly 5/son went to public hs and graduated 2 weeks ago. The last two #s 6 and 7 boys weren't given a choice due to the deplorable state of our schools here, so homeschooling was the way to go. I knew that I would probably be in charge of all of their learning and I am fine with that. This year was a bit of a challenge because both sons had been going to public middle school and I wasn't quite sure where they were at academically because neither are good test takers. I chose curriculum based on a few placement tests and where they should've been at the beginning of the year, but some of what I got was over their heads because the schools here are so far behind. Still, we plugged away at stuff but I was glad I hadn't spent more money than I had because we had to toss a lot of "good" curriculum. If I had done what you are thinking then the loss of funds would've been greater because I probably would've bought new instead of buying used due to finances. After homeschooling for about 18 years now and seeing most of our kiddos thru 8th grade, I wouldn't buy ahead because of the change in curriculum and child. You might also find that you can't homeschool for some reason. I've had friends swear none of their kids would go to public school and then something happens to where both parents have to work. If I were you, I would keep truckin' along and each year noting how your child learns best because learning style can change too. Your child maybe ready for high school work in a couple of years anyway if she's working ahead already. Just relax and enjoy these young years because they are gone in a minute. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) nm Edited July 9, 2016 by ~ d9n Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Keeper Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I have to ask. What IS 'Oldschool Homeschool'? I've never heard of it. But I guess I don't see hs'ers much anymore either since we finished hs'ing a few years ago. Most people seem to use that term to refer to a version of "do it yourself" homeschooling. No (or very few) outside classes, no co-op, using fewer and simpler materials ( simpler in style, not necessarily content). More parent to child interaction. Some people want that kind of simplicity. It has an appeal in today's high pressure high school culture where outside activities and frenetic achievement can be the expected norm. Even in happy little homeschool circles. Other are forced to choose a "simpler" path because of finances or other circumstances they cannot control (illness, etc.). I don't think that everyone who "oldschools" wants to be Ma and Pa Ingalls. ;) Or Art Robinson. ;) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 Most people seem to use that term to refer to a version of "do it yourself" homeschooling. No (or very few) outside classes, no co-op, using fewer and simpler materials ( simpler in style, not necessarily content). More parent to child interaction. Oldschooling certainly means different things to different people. I agree with the others that I wouldn't buy a bunch of homeschool curriculum years before you need it, but if you find great reference material that is always helpful. Co-ops - these may be done for academic reasons or for social reasons; they take up time and may or may not be useful. Are your kids college-bound? IF you are striving to push your kids academically to meet their potential, then you might not be the best resource as a mentor. Most people cannot teach all subjects at a great level. I probably could teach everything. However "I" don't have the time to do that with all my kids especially since three have learning disabilities and take a lot of time. Simplicity - turn off the electronics and stay home. This frees up a lot of time. I think you can use new curriculum and new techniques (internet based, etc) without losing the oldschool feeling. I'd pick things like AoPS over Saxon at my home even though AoPS is much newer. The point is teaching the subject and fostering family time and family values rather than picking curriculum that has been around for a long time. "I" have more family time by farming out a few subjects so that I'm not as involved in everything. We pick and choose some online classes so it doesn't take a lot of travel time. Also I'm very careful to ask lots of questions before I sign up for a class. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 8, 2016 Share Posted July 8, 2016 :lurk5: I'm not exactly an expert here, but my oldest is using Ambleside Online with no co-op/outsourced classes. With 5 kids, I just don't have time or energy for co-ops and we can't afford outsourced classes. She does a lot of volunteer work + a youth group + a sport. It does feel like we are the only ones IRL not outsourcing our classes. The other high schoolers we've encountered use Penn Foster, an online school or dual enrollment for high school. :iagree: Yes, I am only planning 6th grade for my oldest, not high school (yet), and it feels as though everyone we know is outsourcing quite a bit -- through co-op classes, online classes, and/or paid-for tutoring. And here we are, diligently working away at home with Mom, each other, our Mom-made plan, and the books! FWIW, I do think it works for us (up to this point, at least). It just feels like we're the only people homeschooling this way. And no, we truly can't afford outsourced classes. Let's imagine that, two years from now, when the girls are 6th, 6th, and 8th, we decide to sign them up for a one-semester (16 week) Geography course, at the rate of $274 per student (and that's if the price doesn't go up). That's $822 for a 16-week Geography class! We could buy quite a few Geography resources to have at home for years, do some local traveling to experience other cultures (it's New Jersey), ;) cook foods from around the world, and still have money left over. Another example: If we put all three students into a one-year Writing course -- say, Expository Writing I (WWS 1) for the two 6th graders and Expository Writing III (WWS 3) for the 8th grader -- that would cost us $1872 in tuition for that one course for a year. When you add in student registration ($60/student x 3 students), plus the cost of three student guides, the total cost of one online writing course for three students would be $2100. To purchase the materials from Rainbow Resource -- WWS 1 IG + two WWS 1 SGs + WWS 3 IG + WWS 3 SG -- would cost us $103, and we could still use the Instructor Guide for WWS 3 down the road with the twins (plus, we would have used the IGs for WWS 1 & WWS 2 earlier with the oldest student). If we calculate the cost of the IGs over the use of three students, the actual cost to cover materials for at-home instruction is $80, versus the $2100 for the online course. There is no comparison. So, no. We won't be doing those, I don't think, at least not anytime soon. They may be (and probably are) wonderful courses. Just out of our range. I will say, though, it's a lonely road for DIY-homeschoolers these days. Perhaps it always was a bit lonely to be the family doing the hard work on their own at home -- without co-ops, without online courses, without tutors, without lessons, without early college (mine are too young at this point, anyway)? I don't know. I'm glad there are options now. I am glad there are those who can use them. I'm not even sure that outsourcing would be a good fit for us, but since so many seem to assume that approach for middle school and up, not doing it that way is a lonely road (for me). I sure can't teach the girls everything, I know that much. But we do what we can, with what we have, and hope that will prepare them for life. I do feel odd-man out, though. The "academically minded" homeschoolers here (where we live) all outsource, and heavily. In fact, they seem to outsource it all by 6th or 7th grade, so as homeschool moms, they are fairly "hands-off" at that point (i.e., not directly teaching and/or planning the courses). Sigh. On the other hand, there are unschoolers here who keep on with what they've been doing all along -- that is, the kids do whatever they want to do, if and when they want to do it. Also "hands-off," in a different way. Again, sigh. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 My sr has only taken 2 outsourced subjects in high school, Russian and French. That approach worked well for her b/c she is incredibly motivated, functions on an incredibly high level, and her strengths match mine. Her older siblings DE for math and science b/c they were functioning on a level where a university was the best place for them. What she and I were able to do at home was superior to any other option she had. When it comes to course selection, we choose whatever meets their individual needs the best: at home, online class, or DE. (No coops.) Her transcript reflects her. It definitely illustrates the beauty of homeschooling and using its opportunities to the fullest. Her siblings did as well, just in a very different way b/c their paths were quite different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK_Mom4 Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 We outsource DD15's music ( she's a musician - I'm not) and this year I will hire a tutor so she can start a foreign language (again, not anything I can teach). Everything else I teach. I buy used texts for cheap on Amazon. When I spend money, I do it for things like science materials where I can't reproduce it at home (very few frogs around here to dissect). I'm not sure it that is Old School or not. We use modern text books and materials, just bought on the cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngieW in Texas Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I wasn't at all sure what "oldschooling" meant when I read the original post. From all the responses, I guess that it means using older materials. No, Saxon is not necessarily the math that you should go with. Just because something has been around for a while, doesn't mean that it's the best program available for your kid. Every kid is different and your kid's needs and abilities are going to change over time. I would absolutely not buy far in advance. For social studies, you can use whatever you like. You don't really need to have specific expertise to be able to teach that well. At the high school level, you mostly just send them off to read and then have discussions for history. For science and math, you are going to need to either buy a program that teaches you how to teach it or a program that teaches directly to the student or outsource if you are not strong in math and science yourself. I am a math and science teacher (certified in both). I taught high school math and science classes for hsers while my kids were hsing and I've been teaching math and science in the ps for the past two years. For English, you may feel confident in your ability to teach this, but I did not. I used programs that held my hand for 9th and 10th grade and then had my kids take the rest of their English at the community college. In my area, dual credit at the community college is awesome. Students can take up to 12 classes at no charge other than buying the books they need. And these classes counted for both high school and college credit. My 20yo was able to graduate college in just three years because she went away to university with 35 credit hours already completed. And because of her 4.0 at the cc and her high SAT scores, she was able to get a full tuition scholarship at university, so the entire cost for her BS degree was just $30,000 (dorm, meal plan, books, everything) and she only took more than 15 credit hours one semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I don't get that it is using older materials. I read it more as not outsourcing every single subject. What we use doesn't qualify as old, except for maybe Foerster's. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mosaicmind Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I wasn't at all sure what "oldschooling" meant when I read the original post. From all the responses, I guess that it means using older materials. No, Saxon is not necessarily the math that you should go with. Just because something has been around for a while, doesn't mean that it's the best program available for your kid. Every kid is different and your kid's needs and abilities are going to change over time. I would absolutely not buy far in advance. For social studies, you can use whatever you like. You don't really need to have specific expertise to be able to teach that well. At the high school level, you mostly just send them off to read and then have discussions for history. For science and math, you are going to need to either buy a program that teaches you how to teach it or a program that teaches directly to the student or outsource if you are not strong in math and science yourself. I am a math and science teacher (certified in both). I taught high school math and science classes for hsers while my kids were hsing and I've been teaching math and science in the ps for the past two years. For English, you may feel confident in your ability to teach this, but I did not. I used programs that held my hand for 9th and 10th grade and then had my kids take the rest of their English at the community college. In my area, dual credit at the community college is awesome. Students can take up to 12 classes at no charge other than buying the books they need. And these classes counted for both high school and college credit. My 20yo was able to graduate college in just three years because she went away to university with 35 credit hours already completed. And because of her 4.0 at the cc and her high SAT scores, she was able to get a full tuition scholarship at university, so the entire cost for her BS degree was just $30,000 (dorm, meal plan, books, everything) and she only took more than 15 credit hours one semester. Actually, no it doesn't mean using older materials really (at least not in my opinion). I think we've all pretty much said it means to us Old Schoolers, that we do it all pretty much all by ourselves. I will not be outsourcing in any way any of our subjects because I can't afford it. There will be no online classes, dual enrollment (KY doesn't have that anyway), or community college classes for my last 2 guys and I never did any of that with my others. Now, I do use some good ole' standby materials but I'm always keeping my eye open for better material. I still have to remind myself that newer doesn't always mean better in every case, either. At some point, once we decide for sure what we are doing this year for Moe and Curly, I will put that at the bottom of my signature line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) :iagree: Yes, I am only planning 6th grade for my oldest, not high school (yet), and it feels as though everyone we know is outsourcing quite a bit -- through co-op classes, online classes, and/or paid-for tutoring. And here we are, diligently working away at home with Mom, each other, our Mom-made plan, and the books! FWIW, I do think it works for us (up to this point, at least). It just feels like we're the only people homeschooling this way. And no, we truly can't afford outsourced classes. Let's imagine that, two years from now, when the girls are 6th, 6th, and 8th, we decide to sign them up for a one-semester (16 week) Geography course, at the rate of $274 per student (and that's if the price doesn't go up). That's $822 for a 16-week Geography class! We could buy quite a few Geography resources to have at home for years, do some local traveling to experience other cultures (it's New Jersey), ;) cook foods from around the world, and still have money left over. Another example: If we put all three students into a one-year Writing course -- say, Expository Writing I (WWS 1) for the two 6th graders and Expository Writing III (WWS 3) for the 8th grader -- that would cost us $1872 in tuition for that one course for a year. When you add in student registration ($60/student x 3 students), plus the cost of three student guides, the total cost of one online writing course for three students would be $2100. Where I live outsourcing isn't all that common b/c it is a rural/poor area. My son is going into 6/7 and will not have anything outsourced. I've got no clue moving forward. There are lots of online classes that look awesome but as you said they are generally expensive and our budget isn't huge. There really aren't any options locally that are worthwhile until highschool. In hs there is vo-tech- which I've kind of considered as a life skill supplement to academic work at home (it is my understanding that my hs kids can attend for free and they have several different programs from nursing, computers, and mechanics). We toured it last year and I was impressed. My husband really enjoyed it when he went through the program. But that is at least 2 yrs away at this point. We use new materials and we use some vintage stuff. I think that the key is to not think something is good just because it is old OR new because there is a lot of good stuff out there old and new. When I hear oldschool, I just think keeping it simple. Not getting caught up with trying to keep up with PS or anybody else is doing. Focusing on more than just academics and opting out of the rat race that hs academics has become in too much of the country- leading to stressed out and sleep deprived kids that aren't even adults yet. Edited July 9, 2016 by soror 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) If you can't afford to outsource, there are a few free options online that can help you out if you get stuck and just can't teach a subject well. Virtual Homeschool Group has free at-your-own-pace classes with taped lectures and auto corrected quizzes and tests for Saxon math and Apologia science. They also have live classes for a wider range of subjects. You get priority enrollment if you volunteer or donate but they fill up very fast. EdX has quite a few AP prep classes especially science. There are also several self-paced college algebra and calc classes at both EdX and Coursera. MIT and Yale (and I'm sure other colleges) post taped lectures and extensive support materials for a variety of classes. For low cost classes, look into Landry Academy's specials or group buys. If you can afford to buy a year in advance you can get a quality foreign language, science, literature or composition class for about $75/semester. Another low cost science option is Conceptual Academy. They have videos and online quizzes for Conceptual Physics, Chemistry and Physical Science. Edited July 10, 2016 by chiguirre 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 When I hear oldschool, I just think keeping it simple. Not getting caught up with trying to keep up with PS or anybody else is doing. Focusing on more than just academics and opting out of the rat race that hs academics has become in too much of the country- leading to stressed out and sleep deprived kids that aren't even adults yet. I don't know how I would classify it exactly, but one difference for our family is that I don't feel the need to replicate a traditional high school in our home. My kids take courses that are not typical courses. I think that used to be very normal, but now most homeschoolers that I know IRL that actually stick to homeschooling through high school (which is a small # b/c most people I know send their kids to Catholic high school) tend to have transcripts that look very similar to a public high school. Our focus is a lot on how they learn. I laugh b/c none of my kids have (had) any desire to apply to Stanford, but I think Stanford is the one university that would have the greatest appreciation for what my kids have done at home. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 I know this thread is about alternatives to outsourcing, but I want to share a couple free ideas that I am currently using for my own need to lay a bit of a paper trail right now. Most states give free library cards to the big library in the capital. If you can get there just once, and show proof of residency or work in the state, you can probably leave with a free card that will allow you to access the online resources. Capital libraries often offer online GALE courses. I have completed one of these courses, am half way through 2 more, and start another one on Wednesday. These are excellent classes and I feel SO blessed to be able to take them. Some libraries are unlimited and some only allow 3 or so a year. I think my library is unlimited, but I don't know for sure. http://solutions.cengage.com/GaleCourses/ Another idea I'm taking advantage of is that there are all sorts of free religious courses that provide a certificate of completion. I'm taking a pagan course right now because it requires monthly research papers, and this provides me with practice and accountability for pumping out research papers. I wish I had time to chat more, but I am slammed lately with all the new exciting things going on in my life. I'm behind on my research paper, and need to get to it, but I got notified of likes to an old oldschool thread and then saw this more recent thread and just wanted to share these ideas, real quick. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Where I live outsourcing isn't all that common b/c it is a rural/poor area. My son is going into 6/7 and will not have anything outsourced. I've got no clue moving forward. There are lots of online classes that look awesome but as you said they are generally expensive and our budget isn't huge. There really aren't any options locally that are worthwhile until highschool. In hs there is vo-tech- which I've kind of considered as a life skill supplement to academic work at home (it is my understanding that my hs kids can attend for free and they have several different programs from nursing, computers, and mechanics). We toured it last year and I was impressed. My husband really enjoyed it when he went through the program. But that is at least 2 yrs away at this point. We use new materials and we use some vintage stuff. I think that the key is to not think something is good just because it is old OR new because there is a lot of good stuff out there old and new. When I hear oldschool, I just think keeping it simple. Not getting caught up with trying to keep up with PS or anybody else is doing. Focusing on more than just academics and opting out of the rat race that hs academics has become in too much of the country- leading to stressed out and sleep deprived kids that aren't even adults yet. I agree with this so much, Soror, thanks for putting into words what I've been realizing lately. This spring has been the hardest season ever (so far) for me with our homeschooling. I don't mean in terms of the girls being difficult or the work being hard to get done. Not at all. The girls are wonderful and we enjoy our work. It's at the right level for them, we enjoy being together, and we enjoy our homeschooling life. No, my struggle has been in trying to grasp something that I feel has been so very, very hard to see. What is it? As I think and pray about the next three or four years, before my oldest daughter reaches the high school years, I find myself feeling as though I need a mentor and a map! The younger years (K-5th) were easier for me, not only to teach, but to imagine, if that makes sense. I could find my way, as it were. I felt more confident doing our own thing on our own, LOL, and both of those aspects of homeschooling (feeling confident and doing our own thing on our own) became my normal outlook on the enterprise. My preferred approach, actually! I'm not sure what happened, to be honest. As I've thought about what middle school (and beyond) "ought" to look like, I have had a much harder time seeing that clearly. :confused1: There are so many ways you could go, you know? On the one hand, there are people (here) who do pursue that heavy-duty academic path, but they seem to outsource everything. Something about the prevalence of this could shake my confidence, if I thought about it too much. It seems to imply an underlying assumption that, "Yes, we want the strong focus on achievement and academics, but in order to accomplish it, we outsource most of it to others to teach... because at this level, Mom can't." On the other hand, there are people (here) who continue to unschool or "super-relaxed school" ;) into middle school and beyond (thought they wouldn't call it by a grade level), even when it seems that not a whole lot is happening in the way of productive learning and living. Something about that approach unnerves me too, if I think about it too much. In that subset of local homeschoolers, I sense a feeling of helplessness, a deep lack of confidence, an underlying defeat in trying to get these kids to care about learning and finally pick up the torch (they don't). This approach seems to say, "No, we aren't going after college-prep academics because you don't really need college, anyway, and there is more to life than that, but we also don't attempt these things because... (and then I am sometimes told quietly what no one will say in a crowd)... we actually believe that Mom can't pull it off." Only on this forum can I find people who are confidently teaching and guiding middle schoolers at home, but even here, there is a lot of anxiety and striving to keep up with an external, institutional, non-Mom-created standard for high academic performance in these middle grades. Why? When did we turn over the steering wheel to the powers that be? I started homeschooling to avoid that in the first place. You know, with 3rd grade, I never had to ask myself, "Can I do this?" [bites nails] :D Like I said, confident. LOL. Perhaps I had a moment's pause with 4th and 5th, but we dove in and did it well. Why all of a sudden, with 6th, 7th, and 8th on the horizon, do I question everything all over again? It's as though I've had to ask myself why we are doing this, why are we homeschooling? How can I do this with so little money to work with? Who am I kidding? No one else seems to think that a mom can do this, therefore, I must be delusional to even try it. Right? The reason I highlighted the portions above concerning the Vo-Tech is because I wanted to remember to mention that we've thought about this for our girls, too. It is available to our children in high school here, even to homeschoolers, so I've researched it and asked parents of VT students plenty of questions. It's out there, it's an option to consider. Ours also has nursing, computers, and many other areas of study. And I so very much agree with you about the necessity of keeping it simple, focusing on more than academics, and not trying to shape our "course of study" to the expectations of the outside world. Seriously, I have been awakening to this lately. I know that your post here and Eight's (below) are an answer to prayer. Thanks for posting. I don't know how I would classify it exactly, but one difference for our family is that I don't feel the need to replicate a traditional high school in our home. My kids take courses that are not typical courses. I think that used to be very normal, but now most homeschoolers that I know IRL that actually stick to homeschooling through high school (which is a small # b/c most people I know send their kids to Catholic high school) tend to have transcripts that look very similar to a public high school. Our focus is a lot on how they learn. I laugh b/c none of my kids have (had) any desire to apply to Stanford, but I think Stanford is the one university that would have the greatest appreciation for what my kids have done at home. Thanks, Eight, I need to hear this, as it reaffirms what God's been trying to say! ;) We are not homeschooling in order to pursue the highest level of academics with everything (at the cost of something more valuable or precious or eternal), nor do we want to just drift downstream with the dead things. You are so right, it is not about the transcript, the focus is on how they learn. Do you think that more (6th grade and up) homeschoolers these days are caught up in the general public's panic about creating a very impressive high school transcript? One with all the right courses, in all the right proportions? It already feels different to me than it did when we started, and we haven't been at it so long. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Only on this forum can I find people who are confidently teaching and guiding middle schoolers at home, but even here, there is a lot of anxiety and striving to keep up with an external, institutional, non-Mom-created standard for high academic performance in these middle grades. Why? When did we turn over the steering wheel to the powers that be? I started homeschooling to avoid that in the first place. This is very interesting to read. I didn't start homeschooling to avoid the powers that be. I homeschool because my local schools aren't very good. My local high school is ranked 100th in Texas which is ranked 43rd among the states in the national Quality Counts survey. If I want Trinqueta to have strong academics, I have to either send her to a good private school which is an hour commute each way and more expensive than UT Austin or I have to piece together a program from what I can teach well and can outsource online until she's old enough to DE. We can't move to a better district because of GW and Geezle's school needs. We can afford to outsource most classes if I stick to moderately priced providers. If you can do a good job teaching multiple high school subjects, you should absolutely do that. I can do a good job with history and social sciences. I can do an acceptable job with literature and Spanish. I'm not a good math, science, composition or Latin teacher. Given our situation, my best course of action is to outsource. But if you have different goals and different strengths and limitations, you have other options. There's nothing wrong with oldschooling, but it's declined in popularity because other paths are available now that weren't before. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Why? When did we turn over the steering wheel to the powers that be? I started homeschooling to avoid that in the first place. ... Do you think that more (6th grade and up) homeschoolers these days are caught up in the general public's panic about creating a very impressive high school transcript? . We started homeschooling because our kids academic needs are not meet. The only powers that be that I need to care about is my state universities' a-g requirements just in case my kids change their minds and want to apply to the state universities. I outsource the middle school years because my DS11 (just finished 6th grade) wants B&M classroom interactions and I only have two kids. Also my kid would rather hubby and I be parents and homework helper than the educator. If we didn't have the cash, we would probably have swap teach with other parents. Many parents I met who outsourced also said it was mostly to preserve the relationship. My kids music teachers also prefer not to teach middle school beginners because of the mood swings. My DS10 read this article "I kind of ruined my life by going to college" and other articles on Comsumer Report magazine and decided that going to Canada for university makes financial sense. My kids love snow and don't mind cold. Consumer report magazine (that he read) link http://www.consumerreports.org/student-loan-debt-crisis/ Would you consider MOOC or even something like the AoPS forums where kids post math and science questions when they are stuck outsourcing? If the only educator is the parents or the child self studying, won't the socratic discussions be limited by participants viewpoints? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 Thanks, Eight, I need to hear this, as it reaffirms what God's been trying to say! ;) We are not homeschooling in order to pursue the highest level of academics with everything (at the cost of something more valuable or precious or eternal), nor do we want to just drift downstream with the dead things. You are so right, it is not about the transcript, the focus is on how they learn. Do you think that more (6th grade and up) homeschoolers these days are caught up in the general public's panic about creating a very impressive high school transcript? One with all the right courses, in all the right proportions? It already feels different to me than it did when we started, and we haven't been at it so long. For me, the key is focusing on my kids' needs for their goals. In middle school, I want to allow them to explore a wide variety of interests. By high school, my kids are heavily invested in designing their own high school sequence and courses. I have core classes that I want them to take, but they have a lot of flexibility in what and how. As you can see by the replies in this thread, people are vested in their choices. :) There is no right or wrong (well, actually there is....but we won't go there b/c I don't think that applies to anyone on here!) way to homeschool. FWIW, I think that homeschoolers do not need to be afraid of having courses that don't reflect the traditional sequence. Guess I'll know for sure at the end of this admissions' cycle. Dd deliberately made the decision to not take APs or DE. Her transcript is very non-traditional but has incredibly high levels of achievement. This path for us isn't about thwarting high achievement; it is about letting them achieve their goals via their own path. For example, dd does not have AP French on her transcript. I am not even sure what yr AP French would have been. Her course descriptions for her higher levels of French don't include textbook names. She watches movies in French, listens to French news, reads books in French, writes essays in French, and works with her French tutor. But, her transcript has 7 high school French credits. Her history courses include classes like Russian history and communism in the 20th century. One of her literature courses is a fairy tale study. She read fairy tales in English, French, and Russian. She also read books psychoanalyzing fairy tales via Freudian and Jungian archetypes. She spent a semester reading War and Peace. There is not a single AP course out there that encompasses the depth of study that she has done. I do not believe her transcript is going to look weaker b/c of the absence of APs or DE credits. It is going to reflect who she is, her strengths, and her desire to use the academic freedom of homeschooling to explore subjects she is passionate about. Ds had lots of "traditional" courses (or more typical sequence type courses) that he took via AP and DE. But he equally had lots of courses that were driven by his deep interests. He took traditional physics courses via DE. However, he designed his own astronomy, dark matter, and black holes studies. We created philosophy courses. He loved his philosophy of science and religion course. I think it is possible to have the best of both worlds. I am just not willing to negate the essence of why I homeschool to check off of an impressive-to-admissions list. I was 100% on board with dd's decision to not take APs or DE. She felt like they would confine her. It isn't about thwarting outsourced classes. It is about offering my kids the academic challenges they need and want in a way the fits my philosophy of education. For example, DEing for all subjects in 11th and 12th is not at all what I want for my kids. That just happens to be our personal educational philosophy. It isn't saying anything about what others are doing. But freedom to explore subjects in an "outside of someone else's syllabus" for some subjects is an absolute objective. And if that is what they want to do throughout high school, I am ok with that, too. That freedom is why we homeschool. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 FWIW, I think that homeschoolers do not need to be afraid of having courses that don't reflect the traditional sequence. Guess I'll know for sure at the end of this admissions' cycle. Dd deliberately made the decision to not take APs or DE. Her transcript is very non-traditional but has incredibly high levels of achievement. This path for us isn't about thwarting high achievement; it is about letting them achieve their goals via their own path. I think it is possible to have the best of both worlds. I am just not willing to negate the essence of why I homeschool to check off of an impressive-to-admissions list. I was 100% on board with dd's decision to not take APs or DE. She felt like they would confine her. It isn't about thwarting outsourced classes. It is about offering my kids the academic challenges they need and want in a way the fits my philosophy of education. For example, DEing for all subjects in 11th and 12th is not at all what I want for my kids. That just happens to be our personal educational philosophy. It isn't saying anything about what others are doing. But freedom to explore subjects in an "outside of someone else's syllabus" for some subjects is an absolute objective. And if that is what they want to do throughout high school, I am ok with that, too. That freedom is why we homeschool. This is very true. I just wanted to say that it is okay to be well rounded in high school instead of specialized. It depends on the student and what their interests are. For example, if you want to study a business field or econ you need to be well balanced. You need solid math and writing skills but you don't have to specialize in either. You need to have a general knowledge of science and history but the most important thing is to learn how to learn about new topics. If you have a generalist, it's okay to follow a traditional high school path with a bit of this and a bit of that. There is a place for those kids too. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.... Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 On the one hand, there are people (here) who do pursue that heavy-duty academic path, but they seem to outsource everything. Something about the prevalence of this could shake my confidence, if I thought about it too much. It seems to imply an underlying assumption that, "Yes, we want the strong focus on achievement and academics, but in order to accomplish it, we outsource most of it to others to teach... because at this level, Mom can't." On the other hand, there are people (here) who continue to unschool or "super-relaxed school" ;) into middle school and beyond (thought they wouldn't call it by a grade level), even when it seems that not a whole lot is happening in the way of productive learning and living. Something about that approach unnerves me too, if I think about it too much. In that subset of local homeschoolers, I sense a feeling of helplessness, a deep lack of confidence, an underlying defeat in trying to get these kids to care about learning and finally pick up the torch (they don't). This approach seems to say, "No, we aren't going after college-prep academics because you don't really need college, anyway, and there is more to life than that, but we also don't attempt these things because... (and then I am sometimes told quietly what no one will say in a crowd)... we actually believe that Mom can't pull it off." We're seeing these types of homeschoolers where we live here, too. I noticed almost everyone puts their kids back in school right before high school. The people who continue homeschooling high school are using a correspondence course (Penn Foster seems to be really popular here), a virtual academy or outsourcing everything to those mini-schools (can't think of any other way to describe them) where you can just take classes a 2-3 days a week and you pay for them. We're starting to encounter the homeschoolers who aren't doing any kind of structured learning/schoolwork with their kids, because they're too overscheduled with activities. Not trying to be judgmental, but it's starting to pop onto my radar... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) nm Edited October 5, 2016 by Cathi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) Hopefully, I can post back here later, but today... It's been a tough week. Edited September 10, 2016 by Sahamamama 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 :grouphug: Sahamama, that's a rough day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoo Keeper Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Sahamama, :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: and D-Con. And bandages. And chocolate. Lots of chocolate. And relaxing beverage of choice. Praying for friend with ALS. :grouphug: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) Two months later, I remembered this thread, LOL. :) Anyway, a few thoughts.... Someone upthread (I don't remember who at this point) mentioned the possibility that an increasing number of people are turning to homeschooling because of the poor state of public schools and the high cost of private schools. Your experience with your local schools reflects this sad reality. But I think that perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, in the homeschooling community, there may have been a higher percentage who chose homeschooling for reasons other than primarily academic ones. Their motivations may have included good academics, but also things like spiritual development, faith formation, character training, not being institutionalized (i.e., part of the institution of government-run schools), passing on practical skills, instilling a strong work ethic, and so on. There is an implied question in some of these posts that I encounter now more frequently than I did even a few years ago – “If you can.†The focus is still on making the academics the focus! And measuring ourselves as teachers and mothers against the academic standards of the establishment, rather than against some other criteria. In other words, we ourselves may not be in the best school districts, but we take the standards of whatever the “top tier†is and apply those to our homeschools—and feel inadequate to attain that on our own, perhaps? Is this the wisest way to go about it? I am not at all saying “don’t outsource.†Not at all! In fact, we very well may do just that, and you can see that we’re only working on 6th grade at this point! :) What I am saying is that before all these online/outsourcing options were available, what did parents do to parent and guide and teach their children through to high school? For those of us who can’t afford even the moderately priced providers, what are the paths to making this homeschooling thing work for a few more years? Didn’t people used to have to create their own courses, assemble resources, and work out labs the best way they could? IMO, there is an assumption now that high school (and middle school to some extent) will be outsourced, because it’s impossible to do it well. Also, some definitions: To me, outsourcing does not mean that there is no interaction with peers, other adults, or outside-the-home experiences. What it means is that the parent turns over the role of primary teacher to someone else, and becomes the manager of that subject, but not the teacher of it. For example, the parent researches options for Subject X—providers, tutors, pricing, scheduling, and so on. A decision is made to go with Option A, the money is transferred, and the student enrolled. This could be an online course, a tutor, a university model school, a college course. But whatever it is, that course then is primarily between another instructor and the student. The teaching responsibility is no longer on the parent—the planning, organizing, scheduling, assigning, testing, and so on—all this is the responsibility of the instructor. That, to me, is outsourcing. Now it is true that when we purchase, say, a textbook or a video course or other materials ourselves, we are in a sense relying on the expertise of the author or creator of that material. But all the “running†of it is on us. I guess the question could be, “Who is assigning the work?†Mom or Mr. Online? Even if the parent organizes a book group, a science lab co-op, an apprenticeship, or language study group, the work of doing that is on the parent. To me, that is not the same as outsourcing, even if it involves outside resources. Or perhaps the question could be, “Are we paying for something other than materials?†If you DIY homeschool, you basically buy things you can touch and see and hold in your hand, whereas if you outsource, you are paying for an educational service. Again, I don’t know and I’m not judging any option. I am, for my own sake, just trying to work it out, probably because we can’t afford to pay for these services. In the end, I am thankful we can afford to have me home and purchase the “stuff,†but it is a ton of work to work our way independently through everything. I admit it: I like the thought of taking something off my plate! I do. Since we can’t pay for online courses (x3 children), tutors, lessons, co-ops, and the like, my only option for taking something off my plate is to unschool. We do this to some extent, but as an overall approach, I am not going there. So that leaves the work-it-hard option. Many of us are in that position, let’s face it. There has to be a way to tackle middle school and high school—and to do it well—without falling down from fear, discouragement, fatigue, comparison, uncertainty, and a general sense of “lacking†what is needed. I suppose part of my set of questions comes from the fact that (for me) the community seems to be saying that (1) most moms really can’t effectively teach upper level courses at an adequate level, and (2) if we do not then provide the adequate outsourced alternative, we are failing our children. One thing that I think we have going for us these days is that we have so many amazing resources to pull from that, while not strictly outsourcing, do “put the teacher in the book.†I have in mind things like SWB’s WWE and WWS series. I can purchase those and teach composition confidently, because Susan has done an outstanding job of putting her Writing Teacher Self into those texts. And the same could be said for resources available for Science, Math, History, Literature, and more. For us, the hardest subjects to find good resources for (at this point) are Music (mostly theory, I’m having a hard time with that) and French. But even then, we’re very happy with our line-up for French for the next few years. After that, we’ll see what there is to tap into. Every year brings more exciting changes to the homeschool scene, and outsourcing through online providers is certainly one of them. I’m sincerely glad these options are available to those who can afford them. I only would like the community to try to retain the knowledge of how good, solid middle and high school homeschooling can be done without that option. If it is possible to do it well, how is it possible? Even if DIY homeschooling is more work than outsourcing (also debatable), that DIY work may be what some of us realize we must do for the sake of our children. Let’s retain the knowledge of how it’s done. Edited September 10, 2016 by Sahamamama 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) The focus is still on making the academics the focus! And measuring ourselves as teachers and mothers against the academic standards of the establishment, rather than against some other criteria. In other words, we ourselves may not be in the best school districts, but we take the standards of whatever the “top tier†is and apply those to our homeschools—and feel inadequate to attain that on our own, perhaps? Is this the wisest way to go about it? The bolded to me is the purpose of school: to provide the academic education. All the rest - family values, well rounded person, relationship, character building - is parenting. And I can achieve my goals for that even while my kids attend a b&m school. The decision to home educate is for many of us because we are dissatisfied with the academics. (ETA: what is "the establishment"? I, for one, measure my homeschool academics also against my own excellent public school education) And yes, for a child who has the potential to accomplish much, the measure should be what is possible elsewhere, and not just what is customary in my local circle/local ps/community college down the road... home schooling allows me to free our education from as many constraints as possible and give my kids an education that lets them live up to their potential. (There will still be constraints since opportunities may be lacking locally) What I am saying is that before all these online/outsourcing options were available, what did parents do to parent and guide and teach their children through to high school? For those of us who can’t afford even the moderately priced providers, what are the paths to making this homeschooling thing work for a few more years? Didn’t people used to have to create their own courses, assemble resources, and work out labs the best way they could? IMO, there is an assumption now that high school (and middle school to some extent) will be outsourced, because it’s impossible to do it well. Many families woudl not have homeschooled back then; homeschooling is more widespread partly because it is so much easier now. I do not know where the bolded assumption is coming from. I started outsourcing selected subjects when I found myself unable to teach a foreign language at the required level (we had done 3 years at home and reached a plateau), my highly gifted 14 y/o needed a university level challenge, and she craved a classroom experience with other teachers. I could have not done these things - and she would not have become fluent in French. Also, some definitions: To me, outsourcing does not mean that there is no interaction with peers, other adults, or outside-the-home experiences. What it means is that the parent turns over the role of primary teacher to someone else, and becomes the manager of that subject, but not the teacher of it. For example, the parent researches options for Subject X—providers, tutors, pricing, scheduling, and so on. A decision is made to go with Option A, the money is transferred, and the student enrolled. This could be an online course, a tutor, a university model school, a college course. But whatever it is, that course then is primarily between another instructor and the student. The teaching responsibility is no longer on the parent—the planning, organizing, scheduling, assigning, testing, and so on—all this is the responsibility of the instructor. That, to me, is outsourcing. Now it is true that when we purchase, say, a textbook or a video course or other materials ourselves, we are in a sense relying on the expertise of the author or creator of that material. But all the “running†of it is on us. I guess the question could be, “Who is assigning the work?†Mom or Mr. Online? Even if the parent organizes a book group, a science lab co-op, an apprenticeship, or language study group, the work of doing that is on the parent. To me, that is not the same as outsourcing, even if it involves outside resources. Or perhaps the question could be, “Are we paying for something other than materials?†If you DIY homeschool, you basically buy things you can touch and see and hold in your hand, whereas if you outsource, you are paying for an educational service. Again, I don’t know and I’m not judging any option. I am, for my own sake, just trying to work it out, probably because we can’t afford to pay for these services. In the end, I am thankful we can afford to have me home and purchase the “stuff,†but it is a ton of work to work our way independently through everything. I see no value in DIY for the sake of DIY. I create almost all of my own curriculum because that is superior to any other option I have - but those subjects that I cannot teach, even with materials, I will outsource. I find it very important thaty the parent be humble and recognize her limits. Grading by solution key is not teaching. If I do not have the insight to correct my student's physics misconceptions or French pronounciation and grammar or mixup about amino acids, I cannot be an effective teacher for those subjects. But that dos not mean I cannot facilitate my student's learning of thsoe subjects. I just have to bring experts into the home school ether through GC courses, OCW, tutors, family friends - or outsourced courses. I fail to see whay it should be "better" or "more valuable" to insist on eschewing these opportunities for the sake of a DIY ideology. I suppose part of my set of questions comes from the fact that (for me) the community seems to be saying that (1) most moms really can’t effectively teach upper level courses at an adequate level, and (2) if we do not then provide the adequate outsourced alternative, we are failing our children. To what degree an adequate teaching is possible depends on the parent. There are plenty of options that make it nowadays possible to facilitate a higher education without having the personal subject expertise to be the actual teacher. I have always made a distinction between the two, as I see them as two distinct things. Every year brings more exciting changes to the homeschool scene, and outsourcing through online providers is certainly one of them. I’m sincerely glad these options are available to those who can afford them. I only would like the community to try to retain the knowledge of how good, solid middle and high school homeschooling can be done without that option. If it is possible to do it well, how is it possible? Even if DIY homeschooling is more work than outsourcing (also debatable), that DIY work may be what some of us realize we must do for the sake of our children. I don't understand the bolded. There are books, websites, free online videos, and it has never in history been easier to homeschool without outsourcing (but we still should be humble and recognize that some educational achievements will be impossible for all but the most talented learners. The students who achieve foreign langauge fluency without a fluent teacher are extremely rare.) I am still a bit confused why DIY for academics seems to be such a hill to die on when most peple would never think of NOT hiring a qualified violin or piano teacher to teach the kid the violin or thepiane - they would not feel their homeschool identity threatened by not teaching an instrument they can't play. And this outsourcing of instrument lessons has been prevalent even in the olden days of homeschooling. ETA: For the record: I outsourced nothing for DS until 12th grade, except for a lit class at college in 11th grade. But we also spectcularly failed at foreign language; he only learned the family heritage language, but no actual foreign language. I outsourced nothing with DD until 10th grade, except for bringing a French tutor into the home once a week. Since 10th, I outsourced French. I also outsourced calculus based physics which I could have taught equally well, but it was important that she did not take my class, but a colleague's, so the grading would be above board. In 12th, she took two lit courses for fun. Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) What I am saying is that before all these online/outsourcing options were available, what did parents do to parent and guide and teach their children through to high school? ​I think they chose resources that were largely self-teaching: Saxon for math and Apologia for science come to mind. Both of those still exist and still work. In fact, the Virtual Homeschool Group offers free, at-your-own-pace supports for those resources that make them even easier for a DIY homeschooler to implement. For those of us who can’t afford even the moderately priced providers, what are the paths to making this homeschooling thing work for a few more years? You don't need that much money to outsource. If you can babysit or pet sit or find a part time gig, you could probably come up with enough for two classes for each of your kids. For example, the WTMA offers volume discounts if you sign up for several classes. That brings the price down to about $500 each. Landry is incredibly cheap if you join a group buy a year in advance ($60/semester and they offer a huge selection of classes). Sometimes people will resell generic class credits too. The price won't be that good but if you only need one or two credits you can still get a year long class for under $300. Then there's dual enrollment. Depending on your state and the local community college, this may be free or low cost, or it can be ridiculously expensive. This varies widely. If it is free or affordable, this is an awesome resource for foreign languages, lab sciences and higher level math classes. “Are we paying for something other than materials?†If you DIY homeschool, you basically buy things you can touch and see and hold in your hand, whereas if you outsource, you are paying for an educational service. Again, I don’t know and I’m not judging any option. I am, for my own sake, just trying to work it out, probably because we can’t afford to pay for these services. In the end, I am thankful we can afford to have me home and purchase the “stuff,†but it is a ton of work to work our way independently through everything. You can see the outsourced classes. I've never seen one that doesn't post the taped lectures. You can see the assignment page and the teacher's comments. You're not buying a pig in a poke. It is a ton of work to do the planning, teaching, monitoring, etc. of DIY homeschooling. That's why lots of people outsource. Lots of kids also work harder to impress an outside teacher than they will for mom. I suppose part of my set of questions comes from the fact that (for me) the community seems to be saying that (1) most moms really can’t effectively teach upper level courses at an adequate level, and (2) if we do not then provide the adequate outsourced alternative, we are failing our children. ​IMHO, most moms can't teach composition, pre-calc, chemistry and a foreign language equally well. You'd have to be supermom. That's why high school teachers specialize in a subject. That doesn't mean you have to outsource everything, it means you have to find ways to teach those subjects either by finding self-teaching textbooks (hello Saxon and Apologia, those Henle Latin guides and WWS) and keep on top of it when the going gets tough. That probably means working alongside your student through the textbook so that you know enough to help. Every year brings more exciting changes to the homeschool scene, and outsourcing through online providers is certainly one of them. I’m sincerely glad these options are available to those who can afford them. I only would like the community to try to retain the knowledge of how good, solid middle and high school homeschooling can be done without that option. If it is possible to do it well, how is it possible? Even if DIY homeschooling is more work than outsourcing (also debatable), that DIY work may be what some of us realize we must do for the sake of our children. Let’s retain the knowledge of how it’s done ​ The issue is that as fewer and fewer people go it alone, there will be less demand for printed DIY materials. OTOH, there are more and more freebies online every year. EdX is publishing more AP level classes, MIT OCW is expanding, there are more YouTube resources available. If you look around there are tons of supports available for free or low cost that do a large part of the planning and pacing for you. I think it will be less common for someone to order a stack of books, divide them up in their daily planner and check boxes all year. ETA: For music theory, Trinqueta is using this book: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0882849514/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 She's using it in a Landry class because this is not something I can teach, but it seems pretty straightforward if you do play the piano. Edited September 10, 2016 by chiguirre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 You would really have to define old schooling. Do you mean just keep it at home, or do you mean only use older books? There are so many new books and resources out there that I do not see the need to just use older books. However, older books are great. When I order a textbook, it is usually older. I have Hewitts Conceptual Physics 3rd edition, I have Singapore Math US and Primary Edition, which is from 15+ yrs ago, I have Jacob's Algebra, Foerster's Algebra 1, 2, and precal, Jurgenson's geometry (an older edition), all these are all. I even have some books a relative gave me from the 1800's that I might pull down and consider using. I have Considering God's Creation, which I loved but is older. BUT..on that note, I am currently using Mystery Science and loving it for my 1st grader. And I just ordered CAP's W&R. I do outsource World History and Lit for my oldest, but I started that years ago. He will be the only one with that outsourced as far as I can tell. But I am completely onboard with old schooling. I actually only outsource that one class because I started it years ago. I had things I wanted to do myself, and felt a little like I did not get to. But, that child loves the outsourced class so, I guess we will see it through to the end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodGrief Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I'm all about simplicity. For me, that rarely meant creating and teaching a course myself :-) There are too many ready-made options by people who are more familiar with the topics than I am for me to want to go that route. On the other hand, I rarely found co-ops (actually NEVER on the co-ops, lol) or classes that require a specific meeting time to be terribly useful in our schedule either (particularly online classes originating in another time zone, like Potters School or Landry Academy.) I generally wouldn't buy curric ahead of time for a kid, because things do change. I did hang onto things though from one sibling to the next, and occasionally they got used. Learning differences and improvements in curricula meant that sometimes we had to go in a different direction for the next child. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) I see no value in DIY for the sake of DIY. I create almost all of my own curriculum because that is superior to any other option I have - but those subjects that I cannot teach, even with materials, I will outsource. I find it very important thaty the parent be humble and recognize her limits. Grading by solution key is not teaching. If I do not have the insight to correct my student's physics misconceptions or French pronounciation and grammar or mixup about amino acids, I cannot be an effective teacher for those subjects. But that dos not mean I cannot facilitate my student's learning of thsoe subjects. I just have to bring experts into the home school ether through GC courses, OCW, tutors, family friends - or outsourced courses. I fail to see whay it should be "better" or "more valuable" to insist on eschewing these opportunities for the sake of a DIY ideology. Oh, I don't think it's necessarily better. I agree with you there! For some people, though, DIY may be the only viable possibility. If the local schools are terrible and the money is simply not there for outsourcing, what other option is there? Since I am in that exact situation -- not now perhaps, but down the road a bit -- I often feel that vulnerability keenly. What will I do, in a year or two or three, when my student's need for a teacher exceeds my ability to be that teacher, but I can't afford to outsource that teaching? Of course, this assumes that between now and then, nothing changes. Since I certainly can't become an expert in every subject by then, and I don't see how the income is going to change, and our school system isn't going to be radically better in a year or two.... well, this begs the question, "What then?" Is it failing my student for us to aim at the best academics that we can actually reach? I'm not talking about failure because of a lack of diligence or effort on anyone's part, but rather a lack of (a) parent-teacher expertise (in certain areas) and/or (b) resources to pay for outside expertise (in those areas). I was simply wondering if, years ago, there was less pressure for homeschooling parents to facilitate every subject at the level of experts, either personally or through outsourcing. Then again, I suppose it doesn't really matter what anyone did "back then!" ;) I'm enjoying this conversation. I'm not trying to offend anyone or judge others' choices, just figure out a way to do our best in our family's circumstances. Chiguirre, thanks for the link for the music theory book. :) Edited September 10, 2016 by Sahamamama 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 Of course, this assumes that between now and then, nothing changes. Since I certainly can't become an expert in every subject by then, and I don't see how the income is going to change, and our school system isn't going to be radically better in a year or two.... well, this begs the question, "What then?" Is it failing my student for us to aim at the best academics that we can actually reach? I'm not talking about failure because of a lack of diligence or effort on anyone's part, but rather a lack of (a) parent-teacher expertise (in certain areas) and/or (b) resources to pay for outside expertise (in those areas). I was simply wondering if, years ago, there was less pressure for homeschooling parents to facilitate every subject at the level of experts, either personally or through outsourcing. Then again, I suppose it doesn't really matter what anyone did "back then!" ;) It's not failing your student unless they are aiming for and capable of obtaining admission to a highly selective school. If you're aiming for an Ivy, a prestigious tech or a sought after public Ivy (especially in state), the competition is truly fierce and you'll need APs and/or DE to prove your abilities. If you're okay with starting at a community college and transferring or going to a less selective state U, then DIY high school is fine and won't short change your dc at all. The easiest way to set your mind at rest is to research the student profile of some colleges your children might want to attend. If you do need to step up instruction, you've got a couple of years to think of possible funding sources. With just a couple of hundred dollars a month in baby sitting money, you could do quite a lot of outsourcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 (edited) What will I do, in a year or two or three, when my student's need for a teacher exceeds my ability to be that teacher, but I can't afford to outsource that teaching? ..." Is it failing my student for us to aim at the best academics that we can actually reach? I'm not talking about failure because of a lack of diligence or effort on anyone's part, but rather a lack of (a) parent-teacher expertise (in certain areas) and/or (b) resources to pay for outside expertise (in those areas). You can only do what you can do. It is not failing your student if you are unable to teach calculus,do not have the means to outsource calculus, and for some reason cannot facilitate your student's independent learning of calculus. (One of the top goals should be to raise a high school student to be capable of independent learning as much as possible. He will still need outside help for some subjects or on some occasions, but being taught to learn from books etc is very important.) In my opinion, it would be failing the student if parents so clung to the idea of homeschooling for ideological reasons that they would refuse to entertain any notion of public school or outsourcing within their means, even when they could only offer and facilitate an education that remains far below what would be possible for the student if other feasible avenues were used. So, if the local schools are not good and there is no money for outside courses, parents can only school to the best of their abilities. I see a problem when parents refuse to give the student access to a better education if it were feasible, but they are sticking to DIY homeschooling as a matter of principle. Edited September 10, 2016 by regentrude 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 (edited) If the local schools are terrible and the money is simply not there for outsourcing, what other option is there? You barter trade. For example I could teach my neighbor's child math in return for my neighbor teaching my children english composition. A friend's relative barter trade cooking me dinner for me giving her child calculus tuition for her high school exam. I agree to help for free because of my friend, getting a home cook meal was a nice benefit. There is an implied question in some of these posts that I encounter now more frequently than I did even a few years ago – “If you can.†The focus is still on making the academics the focus! And measuring ourselves as teachers and mothers against the academic standards of the establishment, rather than against some other criteria. In other words, we ourselves may not be in the best school districts, but we take the standards of whatever the “top tier†is and apply those to our homeschools—and feel inadequate to attain that on our own, perhaps? Is this the wisest way to go about it? I suppose part of my set of questions comes from the fact that (for me) the community seems to be saying that (1) most moms really can’t effectively teach upper level courses at an adequate level, and (2) if we do not then provide the adequate outsourced alternative, we are failing our children. My kids are the first homeschoolers in my extended family, unless you count my grandparents who were schooled at home in rural China in the beginning of the 20th century. I benchmark my hope for my kids education on the education I received from preK to 12th not in this country. So I did not even benchmark against the top tier of my county which would mean something like Calculus in 9th and multivariate calculus in 10th. Each generation in my extended family hope the best for the next generation. My parents-in-laws hope their kids public school education was better than their own. My BIL and SIL hope their children currently in school are getting a better education than they got. Whether the choice is public school, private school, public charter funds, part time public school, full time homeschool, the parent just want the best for their kid. Each parent of course interpret "best" differently. As for "(1) most moms really can’t effectively teach upper level courses at an adequate level,", upper level courses happen to come at a time when my kids want more autonomy in academics from my hubby and me. We could teach other people's kids math and sciences and our heritage language but our kids rather be taught by someone else. If I could not afford a chinese tutor, I am very sure my kids' tutor would be happy for me to teach her child chinese in return for her teaching mine. My dad is a retired credentialed chinese teacher. I exceed his ability to teach at 6th grade chinese which is higher than AP Chinese level here. Would it be fair to me to not let someone else teach me chinese to a much higher level? Same goes for math, when my parents couldn't help in multivariate calculus they asked my cousins to help while looking for a tutor. My cousins would have take turns helping if my parents couldn't afford a tutor but my parents know my cousins need their downtime too. I did "pay back" for the free tutoring later by babysitting my cousins' toddlers so my cousins could have date nights :) ETA: Most of my relatives are agnostic or atheist so religion doesn't play a part other than only using secular curriculum and classes. Edited September 11, 2016 by Arcadia 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Saxon is pretty reliable and though it has fallen out of favor almost to the point of shame, people are still using it, and it is still working to produce college ready kids who can do math well with little stress from mom... Writer's Inc Handbooks Any textbook that you find that is excellent, thick, has plenty of information and is user friendly...i have seen some of these over the years that I wish I had picked up. I remember seeing some beautiful in depth English textbooks from the 70s that I wish I had picked up from the thrift store. Sonlight Cores, if you find them half price or less....but don't buy too far in advance! You may decide you are tired of it or don't like it any more and it's too big of an investment to make more than a year in advance! Classic Literature (we actually prefer hte Penguin paperback editions because they are easy to hold and lightweight) I wouldn't buy too much else...things change, your life changes, your kids need change and now there are more and more FREE online materials such as Khan Academy, and many other free online courses... Focus on hunting down excellent picture books for now! :o) use the library and learn to be a library GURU...I would do that any day over cluttering my house up. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 I have been doing this for a very long time and for the most part we do it at home, except when I can find an outside resource that can do it better at a price I can afford. I think, for me anyway, that is the line I try to walk. One of my main jobs is to locate the best possible resources for mastering the skills and learning environment that I want to create. I rely heavily on the quality of the materials being used to do the teaching since my kids study (at a high level) many subjects that I am completely unfamiliar with myself. I don't just buy things and tell my kids to do them and hope everything will work out ok bc so and so said this and that about whatever. I spend hours upon hours researching my resources. I preview them to make sure that my goals and the materials actually do have the same objective. I get my kids to preview materials and offer their insight about whether they can use the resource to actually master the content. My kids are going to be the ones using the materials: they need to be active participants in making sure courses are successful. I do think with careful selection of materials, most subjects can be learned and mastered at home. But, that is not through ordering a box of pre-fab content and walking away believing your job is done. Maybe some kids can be completely successful that way. But I suspect far more need active engagement, questioning of understanding, challenging of opinions, etc. I don't have to be an expert, but my resources do need to be. Fwiw, I don't think teaching for academic reasons and teaching for other core reasons are mutually exclusive. I homeschool for multiple reasons. I cannot draw a line and say I homeschool bc of X. X is part of Y, Z influences Y. And somewhere a,b,and c work their way in, too. I homeschool bc I want to educate the whole child: mind, body, and soul. I don't want to discount any of the 3 bc I have been entrusted with the whole child. Not just their mind. Not just their body. And not just their soul. I don't want a soulless sickly academic any more than I want a illiterate soulless athlete. Nor do I want to ignore their mind and body to somehow pretend that all that matters is their soul. We live in a physical world with physical bodies. All of it matters. Academics matter me to a lot. But so do the others. For me, all of it together requires organization, dedication, and immense effort. If I wasn't willing to commit to pursuing the best I am capable of providing, yes, I would definitely question our choices. But I am equally confident that my best effort combined with excellent resources goes a very long way of making up for my shortfall in expertise. My kids' academic successes prove to me over and over that we are capable of doing amazing things at home. (As a chemE, math and physics major, and a Russian and French major wannabe all demonstrate when my math skills beyond alg 2 stink, I know very little physics, I know zero French and Russian, and I completely detest chemistry. Somehow my lack of expertise has not hampered them. Contrary. Our educational methodology and philosophy have enabled them to master high levels of material. And it is not at the expense of feeding their souls or encouraging physically healthy activity.) Oh, and it really helps that I am 99.99% stubborn and really don't care what schools are doing. I compare my individual children only to himself/herself. I want them to be the best them they can be--much sums up my goals for homeschooling. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Our finances may be in flux these next couple of years. (Great timing, eh? :huh: ) My top priorities in homeschooling are, in no particular order, academic, preserving childhood, remaining family-centered, community mindedness, and growing in a more natural environment. For us, (us, us, us) that means we will homeschool on the cheap if we need to. Cheap, meaning always buying used, possibly eliminating outsourcing, preferably just limiting it. If that's still beyond our means, there is absolutely, positively no way I'm comfortable cobbling together resources for 4 kids (2 high schoolers) from my shelves and the library next year. It's just too much work when days still only have 24 hours in them. I would, however, be willing to utilize a cyber charter school. I may not be overly thrilled with their academics, but they'd exceed what I could do all alone, and some will provide for extracurricular outsourcing. Going into our 10th year, I almost never buy anything ahead now. DD's 9th grade plans have changed probably half a dozen times over since February. Other than Saxon Math (which I held onto from DS), there's nothing I could have purchased years in advance. I have resources I purchased just over the summer that we won't be using! (Anyone need Integrated Science??? :tongue_smilie: ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 BTW- We are outsourcing a LOT this year...I was/am just tired of the end-all be-all and I find that we needed some fresh insights/inputs, even some fresh things to disagree with (haha!), and guess what I found!? Outsourcing isn't all it's cracked up to be! Go figure. :o) We are 100% happy with our electives that are outsourced (makes sense!) We are happy with the extremely rigorous online classes, that I researched very carefully and found excellent reviews about (PA HSers, and Landry) We are Ok with the online classes that I already used before and I knew they were "just ok" (Apologia) And we are somewhat unhappy with the local in-person classes (one, we even already dropped), because there was almost no way to fully verify the excellent, validity, no way to read reviews....I emailed all teachers involed and asked very in depth detailed questions but still came away not completely sure what we were getting into. And, of course, it bears out that we aren't thrilled. All that to say, is that if you do your own research, you see something in person, you read reviews, like 8Fll said, you'll have a better and better chance of finding stuff you really resonate with, and that matches the needs of your child. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 (edited) To me, more than anything, Oldschooling is HOMEschooling not homeSCHOOLING. Many of us had higher priorities than academics. I do NOT believe that is wrong. I don't care if someone is Pagan, Athiest, Muslim, Christian, Communist, or spaghetti strainer wearing. Parent have the right to raise their child in their culture. And if the local school is another culture, they have the right to not send their child there. Period. The United States, long ago, passed laws to allow parochial schools. It is an American right. As for low-income and other marginalized students, homeschooled marginalized students hold their own against the average American child and surpass children of their own marginalized group. No mom from a marginalized group should be held to the standards of an elite school. Moms are people. They have needs too, that can be grossly neglected when they are shamed for being marginalized. It makes me spitting mad when I see a marginalized mom that is accomplishing the herculean feat of getting her kids equal to the average non-marginalized kid and told that isn't good enough and she must strive for equal to elite. It is cruel and inefficient. Academics are important, but not the #1 priority. Moms as well as the children need their basic needs met first. Edited September 14, 2016 by Hunter 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 (edited) I started a thread on Maslow at the general forum, instead of hijacking this one with my weird questions. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/624220-maslows-pyramid-and-k-12-education/ Edited September 15, 2016 by Hunter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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