Dual Credit and middle school...any advice?

[MeghanL]

My oldest just got word that he has been accepted to the community college this fall! My state has dual credit starting in 7th grade, and he will be starting 7th in the fall at the same time. He needs to take Advanced Reading his first semester, but can go into math & composition courses. I had a plan for next year, but with this news, things are going to change a little. All the classes he needs to get his associates in graphic design can be online, except for Advanced Reading. Here are my revised plans. Too much? Not enough? Should I go way light on the first semester and see how it goes? 

 

Math: taken online through the college (second semester) 

 

Language Arts: Composition I (second semester) & Advanced Reading taken through the college (first semester)

 

Science: Elemental Science Chemistry for the Logic Stage

 

Foreign Language: Japanese with his dad who's a linguist

 

Current Events: Taking the Wired magazine and finding articles that spark his interest to dig deeper. This will cover geography, current events, history, technology, science, literature, etc. 

 

Logic: Mind Benders

 

Literature: Veritas Press 7th grade reading list

 

Freshman Seminar: required to take through the college (first semester)

 

I'm not really sure how to proceed with the dual credit portion though. Since he's already been deemed "college ready" is the assumption that we'll skip middle school and just start working on high school/college in 7th grade? Or do we still have 6 years instead of 4 to work on college credits and start on high school credits in another 2 years? I have an appointment with the dual enrollment adviser through the college in a few weeks so I can ask more questions then, but wanted to get some feedback here first so I had kind of an idea of what we could do!

 

[kiana]

I'd be really, really iffy about enrolling a 7th grader in college composition regardless of what their placement said. The material can be awfully adult, and a lot of times the placement tests check grammar more than actual writing skills. Honestly I'd also be inclined to get a read on what the advanced reading class covers, because they may be having him read some pretty graphic material and you usually can't get an alternative assignment.

 

The math class would probably work but I see in your schedule for this year that he's just finished pre-algebra. It would probably save you money to take algebra 1 and 2 at home and then move into college algebra (usually the first class that counts for credit towards a degree) after that. At the college, college algebra will follow beginning/elementary algebra and intermediate algebra (algebra 1 and 2, same class) but those classes usually do not count for credit towards a degree. This also gives you an out -- college classes move FAST. I would also remind you that college math classes (especially remedial classes) are usually filled with students who struggle with math and hate math and this may not be the best environment for an accelerated child. If they tell you their placement test puts him in college algebra, um, there's something wrong with the placement test. I have taught college algebra and there is no way someone who's finished algebra 1/2 is prepared. (If he's gone further, ignore that part of the advice).

 

I would look into enrolling him in classes in his broad area of interest (art? if you say graphic design) if possible, to get his feet wet.

[SunshineMom]

I think working through High School Literature & Composition would be more helpful than diving into a college composition and an advanced reading class.  I would want my student to have a broad exposure to literature because they actually took the time to read great works of literature verses a survey of those books. 

 

The thread on "9th & 10th grade Literature" on the HS board may provide some book suggestions for your student.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Jewels

[yvonne]

Will the courses at the CC will be on his permanent/official transcript?  Will those grades follow him when he applies to a four year university, if that's something he might want to do some day?  If so, it might be worth keeping that in mind when selecting courses to take at the CC. 

 

ETA: I agree with Kiana about the type of reading material in a CC class. I would get the reading list for the class/es you're interested in and see if that's what your son would be interested in reading or best served by reading.

Edited June 2, 2016 by yvonne

[Sebastian (a lady)]

What are his long range goals?  

 

What worked for us with dual enrollment was to start with just one course for the semester.  For my older kids, that was a precalculus/college algebra course in 11th grade.  Having just one course let them learn how to balance the college pace and requirements, without being overwhelmed.

 

Some possible stumbling blocks at a CC:

 

Mature subject matter in classes.  Most of the students will be 18 or older.  

 

Pace may not be a good fit.  My kids found that the math courses could be quite a bit to keep up with in calculus.  On the other hand, a class that is below standard college level (for example an algebra or pre-algebra class) might have students who are high school graduates, but failed to place into college level courses.  These classes may have a slower pace in order to bring these students along.  This might not be the pace you are looking for.  It would be worth asking if a course like this was intended to move a student eventually along to the higher level courses or if the expectation was just to get them through Math 100 or the equivalent baseline class.

 

A lot of online work.  Even courses that had classroom meetings, also had a lot of homework online.  DS1 spent 300 hours logged into the math homework site for one class.  They also had to keep on top of college email, college message board and the online supplemental site.  Homework assignments could be posted or modified on any of these.  (One kid realized the day before a course ended that he had a full semester of work that had posted to the online site after he stopped checking it.  The instructor was new and hadn't posted anything in the first month.  DS neglected to go back and check mid course.  That was a frantic last evening.)

 

We haven't done fully online CC classes.  Others have mentioned that it can feel disconnected and that it may be hard to get feedback or extra help.  Where in a classroom setting, you can just ask a question, when you are online, you may have a time delay after sending an email.  Some online classes require a lot of forum participation to make up for the lack of a classroom discussion.

 

I would not consider that just because a student placed into CC work that they were now working at a full college level or even that they ought move into high school completely.  I would treat the CC as an option and select the courses that move your kid along his desired path.  He may find that if 4 year college is a goal, that an AA would be helpful.  On the other hand, he may find that this would not all transfer or that some schools would consider him a transfer student rather than a college freshman.  It is up to the gaining college to decide how to treat any incoming transfer credits.  Policies vary widely.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

BTW, I say this as the mom of a couple kids who tested as gifted and who have done some rigorous courses in school.  Don't be in a rush to move him ahead of where he is.

 

When I look at the list of materials in your signature line, they seem to line up to what I'd expect for his grade and age.  What do you get out of moving him into the dual credit courses at this point?  

 

 

[Kassia]

My daughter is entering 9th grade (she will be 14 in August, so young for her grade)  and taking Spanish at the community college for DE.  We spoke with the professor ahead of time and he said he thought foreign language is fine for a younger student, but he didn't think younger students are ready for the English classes, humanities, etc. because their maturity level isn't high enough for the thinking involved in those classes.  Yes, those kids are smart, but most still need time to mature before being ready to take on the classes that require higher level thinking.  

 

Erica

Edited June 2, 2016 by ebh87

[regentrude]

I would not take more than one class in the first semester so he can get used to pace and setup. CC grades are forever part of his college record.

I would stay away from English courses because of mature subject.t

I would stay away from math courses below college algebra. Those courses are remedial and will be filled with students who struggle with math and often have a bad attitude towards the subjects; I can see no benefit for a young strong student to be in such a class.

 

Looking at the materials in your signature, I do not fully understand why he needs to extra challenge of college courses, since he is not even working at high school level. What am I missing?

[MeghanL]

Some additional information:

1. He's doing Saxon Alg 1/2 this year, but has also been working on higher math on Khan Academy and Coursera classes. He's done well in the Coursera classes he's taken (I realize it is not the same since it's peer graded.)

2. I'm not as comfortable teaching the higher math myself. The cost for a tutor or an online class is comparable with what the community college charges and it's a class we won't have to pay for again. It's just more cost effective for us to do it this way. 

3. I've been classically educating him since the beginning, he's been exposed to TONS of classical literature over the years :) In addition to the semester composition class, he'll also be reading through the Veritas Press 7th grade reading list. I don't think it will undo all the work we've done or ruin him for literature. He'd be working toward an associate's degree and the community college works very closely with the state university. All credits transfer. 

4. What we get out of this by moving him into the college classes now instead of later is (hopefully) inspiring him with the work that he is interested in. Of the 26 classes he needs to take, 5 are not directly related to the kind of work he wants to do in the future. This is a kid I could see NOT going on to the 4 year university. I want to make sure he has some employable skills before he leaves my nest because on his own, he wouldn't chose to do school at all. His main motivation for wanting to do Dual Credit is so he can be DONE with school earlier and not have to take a day more than absolutely necessary. 

5. My husband, my brother (who lives across the street), my dad and my sister (all who we see regularly) are all intense math people. Any additional help he would need, he could ask any of them. My husband is also a computer programmer who works for an ad agency with lots of graphic designers, so we have quite a few community connections to help him with this program. 

 

He is not the most mature or motivated kid, so I can see that could be a HUGE problem. On the other hand, he seems to do well with older kids (typical with kids on the autism spectrum) and might work harder to impress them/a teacher other than me. My plan is to certainly start slow and not rush into anything. But, it also seems like it has such potential to be a really good thing for him at this point in his life. 

 

[GinaPagnato]

I'm trying to wrap my head around a 7th grader sitting in a community college classroom. A child who is not particularly mature...I'm not getting it.

 

Are there no co-ops or homeschool classes that meet in person that you can take advantage of? These would be age and developmentally appropriate, versus a CC.

 

I would even consider hosting a small group of kids in my home and sharing the cost of a tutor with other families. The only kids I've known that young who were at a CC were off the charts gifted in math (like doing calculus as a 12 year old), and there was no real alternative. The one I'm thinking of was also very mature and his social skills were spot on for a CC, and even that was challenging (took awhile for the other students to be pleasant with him due to his age and small physical stature).

 

I'm not trying to burst your bubble, but having btdt with DE kids (youngest was 16 when he dual enrolled), I would be way cautious about proceeding.

[GinaPagnato]

Okay, I re-read your first post because I was confused at first. So the only DE class he'll take LIVE will be the comp and freshman seminar? I'd still be very cautious, especially since DE grades stay on your transcript forever and will follow you to any college. At least, that's how it's done here. That would be the first thing I'd want clarity on when talking with the adviser.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2016 by forgetmenot

[EKS]

I would be very concerned about putting a 7th grader who has ASD and ADHD (per your signature) and who is currently doing age-grade level appropriate work into a college class.  It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[justasque]

 

 

I would even consider hosting a small group of kids in my home and sharing the cost of a tutor with other families. 

 

This.  If he's gifted in math, the ideal place for him is in a class with similarly-gifted age-peers.  A class like that will challenge him with the kind of depth and breadth of material that is unlikely to be found in a community college class.  I have taught many students with the McDougal-Littell Algebra I text.  With struggling students, each problem takes longer, and grasping the concepts takes more problems, so they get fewer word problems and no "challenge" problems.  In contrast, one of my current students is skipping the basic stuff, doing significantly more problems each day, and including an entire extra worksheet of challenge problems for each sections.  Both approaches can be called "Algebra I" and teach the same basic topics, but the gifted student will come out with a significantly different level of depth, breadth, and skill.  The gifted student will also be much better prepared for further coursework in both math and the sciences, and thus will be more likely to be successful in those endeavors.  Don't shortchange your gifted mathematician by trying to fit him into a class designed for a very different kind of student.

 

ETA:  And that goes double with special needs in the mix.  

Edited June 2, 2016 by justasque

[wapiti]

My two cents: looking at the big picture, this sounds like an attempt to replace high school in its entirety with watered-down "college" classes. I would be wary of making that kind of decision for such a young age. His attitudes about school and goals for his future could well change dramatically in six years.

 

This may be a good point to evaluate all the resources available including age-appropriate schools.

 

As a practical matter, my kid with issues just finished 7th grade and it was a rough ride. Tons of sitting nearby to make sure progress was occurring. (This one attends a relatively rigorous school and is very advanced in math. I cannot imagine that the CC class En Ironman would be remotely appropriate.)

Edited June 2, 2016 by wapiti

[amyx4]

Here, the dual enrollment policy is the professor is notified that an under-age student would like to take his/her class. The prof can decline or accept the student. The prof is not give the student's name. However, on the first day of one of his classes the prof asked (in front of everyone) who the dual enrollment student was and my guy ended up raising his hand. So there will be things that happen in class that don't go as planned (or promised by the dual enrollment office).

 

One of my guys started in the fall of 10th grade and had just turned 15 that summer.  At that point, ds had a baby face. He's much happier now that he's grown a bit and seems to blend in better.

 

During finals and midterms at the CC, very little homeschooling gets done because I know he needs that extra study time. Those grades are forever. 

 

Has your son had some sort of active shooter training? They've had both drills and a threat at the local CC. The first semester, he didn't know to set up his phone to receive those texts. Lesson learned.

[MeghanL]

Well, the classes aren't watered down. And I'm not sure why college was put in quotation marks, it is a legitimate college :) 

I see it as doing a homeschool technical option. Since he most likely won't be doing a bachelor's (although that may change, especially if he's going to be taking classes he likes) I want him to be employable right out of high school. Doing this program has a much higher probability of that happening. We aren't bound to 6 years of classes, and if he is having problems, we can opt out. We still have the 3 weeks to drop a class after it starts, but I am fully confident that he can handle the coursework. The only part I'm worried about is the home-based stuff. 

Everything he does is to get to some future point. So, taking an Algebra course so he'll do better in college seems silly since he's already tested into the college algebra class. Taking homeschool co-op classes seems counterproductive if he already has the opportunity to be working toward his associate's degree. 

I feel the need to say again that he is not going toward a 4-year liberal arts degree in computer science. The classes he will be taking directly relate to graphic design, not mature content that he couldn't handle. 

[quark]

Congrats to your son. Mine started in 7th grade too. He took 3-4 classes a semester but he does not have the ASD/ ADHD challenges and maturity was not an issue. He placed directly into calculus and found the classes not challenging enough for him (he has been doing a lot of math from young though). In the end, he decided to just finish the calculus sequence, not taking any other math there, but he has been enjoying non math classes like music, lab sciences, literature and humanities. Maturity was never an issue here and he thrives with the older classmates. I would definitely take it slow if you are concerned. And I would take good note of class drop dates (usually 2-3 weeks in if you would like a refund). I'd even stay on campus the first few days just to make sure he knows where things are, how to contact you if he needs to etc.

 

Having said that, it is very difficult to predict beforehand how it can go for a student who really wants to get something done. Some of my friends who took the same path were very wary about their kids thriving in the CC setting but their kids proved them wrong very quickly and really grew from the experience. Sometimes I think it's a matter of not knowing what your kid can do unless he is in the situation right there learning how to do it. All of these kids again are not on the spectrum that I know of so again, I don't know how that will come to play.

 

If he is driven to finish his arts associates I'd suggest focusing on that and taking only what he needs to achieve that goal. There will be gen ed requirements coming into play, best to check with the counselors on that. And I know each one of our CCs in CA has a disability services department. Kiddo's is very mild and doesn't affect day to day learning very much but he still went there and reported his disability to them and they were very helpful. If your CC has this department, I'd make good friends with them and ask if they extend services to dual enrolled students.

 

Good luck with deciding! As for his at-home classes, factor in extra driving time to the CC (if driving).

Edited June 2, 2016 by quark

[amyx4]

The classes he will be taking directly relate to graphic design, not mature content that he couldn't handle. 

College students talk about their personal lives before/after class and during the break.

[justasque]

Well, the classes aren't watered down. And I'm not sure why college was put in quotation marks, it is a legitimate college :)

I see it as doing a homeschool technical option. Since he most likely won't be doing a bachelor's (although that may change, especially if he's going to be taking classes he likes) I want him to be employable right out of high school. Doing this program has a much higher probability of that happening. We aren't bound to 6 years of classes, and if he is having problems, we can opt out. We still have the 3 weeks to drop a class after it starts, but I am fully confident that he can handle the coursework. The only part I'm worried about is the home-based stuff. 

Everything he does is to get to some future point. So, taking an Algebra course so he'll do better in college seems silly since he's already tested into the college algebra class. Taking homeschool co-op classes seems counterproductive if he already has the opportunity to be working toward his associate's degree. 

I feel the need to say again that he is not going toward a 4-year liberal arts degree in computer science. The classes he will be taking directly relate to graphic design, not mature content that he couldn't handle. 

 

I think there's some confusion - is he going to take an algebra class at the college - that is, a high school level algebra class that would be remedial for the regular college students and not count towards the degree?  Or is he taking a class called "College Algebra" which is at a college level and counts towards the degree?  They are quite different courses, normally taken years apart in the typical sequence - and I think posters (including me) may be a bit confused and are advising accordingly.  Could you clarify?

[BlsdMama]

As a mama with a dual enrolled 16yo and a student at CC myself:  The pace of math classes is not geared toward a learning curve.  If he doesn't get something - where will he go for help IMMEDIATELY so he doesn't fall behind?  You also need to know what happens if you find out he can't keep up - in other words, what happens if he has to withdraw?  Are you on the hook for costs plus books?  We are here.  He'll also have a W on his transcript.

 

I took a truly wonderful Lit class at my CC last year.  The teacher was great and thoughtful.  However, one of the plays did discuss violent rapes during civil war in an African nation and it did have a vague scene about oral *** and the entire thing was about the "necessary" and unavoidable fact of prostitution of women.  While as an adult I was prepared to handle that topic and the play itself was truly moving, it was not material I'd *ever* want my 13yo son (or daughter) dealing with and sticking in their head.  This teacher was a Christian and the play was very appropriate for college students to discuss and address the themes.  It was not appropriate for a 13yo.

 

For this purpose, we've also chosen our DS (now 17) -who has taken Comp I, Comp II, and several other CC courses to NOT take Lit. classes at the CC.

 

I wouldn't put my 14yo DD in dual enrolled classes this year.  CC has some very motivated kids and CC has some very unmotivated kids.  I need her to have more of a compass.  While I understand the attraction thoroughly, I am also suspecting you have a child that you feel is gifted and academically successful.  If this is the case, then realize that you really want that kiddo applying to colleges with a 4.0 GPA on his college transcript.  A potential low grade now could impact him through scholarships.  I also hesitate because he's only in Saxon 1/2 right now.  I'd want him to have a firm foundation in Algebra and have proven success in Algebra before attempting a college class.  You really want him feeling confident and pushing forward successfully.  What if he took Algebra I and Algebra II at home did very well, then took Intermediate Algebra there?

A kiddo who is pretty math adept could do Alg. I this year, Alg II next, and still be ready to take his math classes in 9th or 10th grade at the CC.

 

For me personally, in my *very* limited experience, our goal was to give DS enough classes to prepare him to juggle outside expectations while building his transcript and giving him confidence.  It has been very challenging for him to learn to juggle Mock, three college classes, and home demands.  I can't imagine a 13yo juggling it all but maybe that's my kids.  He did really great juggling it (and nailed that 4.0 GPA) but there were times with multiple tasks and expectations that really pushed him and made life stressful.  A 13yo just has so much upheaval emotionally, hormonally, etc., at that age.  

 

I think we come off very Debbie Downer and I wish I wasn't piling on.  But the one thing that really sticks with me is that this GPA sticks with them.  Not such a big deal for an average student, but when you have a kiddo you expect to get big scholarship money, that has to be on your radar.

[MeghanL]

I think there's some confusion - is he going to take an algebra class at the college - that is, a high school level algebra class that would be remedial for the regular college students and not count towards the degree?  Or is he taking a class called "College Algebra" which is at a college level and counts towards the degree?  They are quite different courses, normally taken years apart in the typical sequence - and I think posters (including me) may be a bit confused and are advising accordingly.  Could you clarify?

 

He tested into Composition I & College Algebra. 

 

He needs to take the remedial reading class-Advanced Reading. 

[amyx4]

What's "Advanced Reading?"

[MeghanL]

I do appreciate all the advice. You all have certainly given me some things to think about. 

We don't have a lot of homeschoolers in my area after age 9, so that has hindered some of the group class opportunities. 

Lots to think about. 

[justasque]

He tested into Composition I & College Algebra. 

 

He needs to take the remedial reading class-Advanced Reading. 

 

I would be somewhat concerned that this may be a situation where the placement test is not an accurate predictor of appropriate entrance level.  You need to take into consideration both the starting point (pre-requisite knowledge/skills) as well as the pace expected and the "school skills" needed to keep organized, study for tests, etc.  I STRONGLY suggest you talk to the professor or someone in the math department before assuming this class is the right entrance point for him.  This is especially the case if he is a gifted math student and may have been able to do well on the placement exam by doing the problems in a different way than the test writer intended (meaning he may not have the skills the test writer was trying to test for).  

 

Thirteen year old boys often have a year or so of a "holding pattern" academically, while their bodies undergo the metamorphosis that is puberty.  I get your reasoning - really, I do - but my experience and observation of others leads me to advise that you dial it back a notch for his first semester of college.

[amyx4]

I would decline the "Advanced Reading" because it's a remedial class. I don't think remedial classes look good on a transcript.  He needs to be able to start at ENG 101. Not a class that has a lower number.

 

How did he test into College Algebra if he's only had Algebra I ? College Algebra is "sort of" like Algebra III 

[MeghanL]

I would decline the "Advanced Reading" because it's a remedial class. I don't think remedial classes look good on a transcript.  He needs to be able to start at ENG 101. Not a class that has a lower number.

 

How did he test into College Algebra if he's only had Algebra I ? College Algebra is "sort of" like Algebra III 

 

He's been doing Khan Academy & Coursera classes online for years. He's also very intuitive with math. It's also in-line with how he tests on his annual assessment where he has college-level scores for everything but reading. 

 

ENG 101 is not a class he would be taking for this degree program. 

[amyx4]

ENG 101 is not a class he would be taking for this degree program. 

oops, sorry, you did say that earlier

[EKS]

How did he test into College Algebra if he's only had Algebra I ? College Algebra is "sort of" like Algebra III 

 

College algebra is the algebra part of precalculus.  I think it might be possible for a student to test into college algebra if they have had a very strong Algebra I course, particularly if the test is assuming that the Algebra II course will be weak (my experience with the Lial Intermediate Algebra book--which is designed for the remedial market--leads me to suspect that remedial programs are attempting to move students through intermediate algebra by making it on the "lite" side).  

 

I would be very leery of placing a very young student who has done Saxon Algebra 1/2 (a prealgebra course) directly into a college algebra class regardless of how much extra math he has done online.  The only way I would place such a student in a college algebra class would be if my reaction to the placement results was "that makes sense" because he had demonstrated to me that he was ready by completing a rigorous Algebra II course first. 

[MeghanL]

 

 

Having said that, it is very difficult to predict beforehand how it can go for a student who really wants to get something done. Some of my friends who took the same path were very wary about their kids thriving in the CC setting but their kids proved them wrong very quickly and really grew from the experience. Sometimes I think it's a matter of not knowing what your kid can do unless he is in the situation right there learning how to do it. All of these kids again are not on the spectrum that I know of so again, I don't know how that will come to play.

 

 

This. This is ultimately what makes me want to pursue this path. It might be the "thing" that really gets him excited about his future. ASD/ADHD are problems when it comes to what I want him to be doing. They are not all problems when it comes to what HE wants to be doing. Or what he sees value in. 

 

The only college classes he would have the first semester would be Freshman Seminar & Advanced Reading (a remedial class). I really think those 2 classes will be well within his capabilities and will be a good gauge on what the second semester would be like. 

[EKS]

He's been doing Khan Academy & Coursera classes online for years. He's also very intuitive with math. It's also in-line with how he tests on his annual assessment where he has college-level scores for everything but reading.

 

ENG 101 is not a class he would be taking for this degree program. 

 

Which assessment do you do?

[BlsdMama]

He's been doing Khan Academy & Coursera classes online for years. He's also very intuitive with math. It's also in-line with how he tests on his annual assessment where he has college-level scores for everything but reading. 

 

ENG 101 is not a class he would be taking for this degree program. 

 

 

You know what would be curious and give you some kind of extraordinarily rough guideline?  Take the pre-calc placement test for TT or Saxon...  Just for curiosity.  

 

I will add that I'm the equivalent of a math idiot.  My ACT in Math was a 27.  I retake it as an adult on the 11th.   It potentially places me in College Algebra &/or Trig too.  I took Intermediate Algebra last semester. I dropped it because I was not going to complete it with a grade better than a C and I didn't want to hurt my GPA.  BTW, this is a little painful to share so be gentle.  But I have NO idea why there is a discrepancy between my testing and my actual ability.

 

Now, that said, my bff's daughter is 13.5 - took three college classes at her CC last semester and aced them.  She absolutely rocked it.  So keep in my mind that my post is a warning - things to be mindful and aware of - the potential pitfalls, but being 13-14 and taking CC classes does not mean doom.  On the same mindset though, he should possess strong ability to organize his time, get things done, not procrastinate, be working ahead, not need to be pushed, be willing to struggle with difficult things.  You should see these things regularly demonstrated in the home. 

Edited June 2, 2016 by BlsdMama

[Mike in SA]

Most school placement tests are pretty accurate - if they say the student is ready, the student is ready, and if not, then not.  However, if a kid can jump from pre-algebra to college algebra, that tells me the challenge has been way below the need all along.  He needs more.

 

Though I also don't recommend rushing to college, because a 7th grade boy RARELY has a sense of direction, I can see a certain logic if all other options completely peter out.  I would give it another hard look, just in case. 

 

If the college is the best route, look into auditing a course or two for at least the first semester.  That way, it's a no harm / no foul situation.  I know he wants to get done ASAP, but again, he's very young, and that is typical for the age.  We boys don't mature quickly.  :biggrinjester:

 

If, after auditing, he loves the place, you'll have your answer.

[wapiti]

Most school placement tests are pretty accurate - if they say the student is ready, the student is ready, and if not, then not.  However, if a kid can jump from pre-algebra to college algebra, that tells me the challenge has been way below the need all along.  He needs more.

 

This is why was so confused, how could a student go from prealgebra to college algebra without alg 1 and 2.  If he's truly ready for precalc, he must have been bored out of his gourd with Saxon 1/2.  No wonder he hasn't been interested in school.

 

ETA, I'm not a big fan of the instruction at Khan but it would be worth looking at his account, at the topics he has mastered and types of problems he has completed, to get an idea of where he is with algebra 1 and 2.  I'd look with a skeptical eye though I suppose it is possible.

 

In such case, there is a huge wide world of math he might want to explore and alternative paths that don't involve a student finishing all of high school math before high school.  This may be a great opportunity to develop his talents in ways that he may find interesting, even captivating, that might not involve the type of materials used in a CC course.

 

Though I also don't recommend rushing to college, because a 7th grade boy RARELY has a sense of direction, I can see a certain logic if all other options completely peter out.  I would give it another hard look, just in case. 

 

This is one nice way to put it LOL.  I was sure 7th grade would be my waterloo.  Now that it's done, I am hoping for much growth and development over both the summer and 8th grade :tongue_smilie:.

Edited June 3, 2016 by wapiti

[8filltheheart]

He tested into Composition I & College Algebra.

 

He needs to take the remedial reading class-Advanced Reading.

I have had middle school kids score high on the ACT for gifted and talent searches, but that in no way means Imwould have had them skip math courses based on those scores. Skipping alg 1,2 and geometry based on a placement test just does not sound like a good idea. Pre-alg as a 7th grader is a very normal math placement. If he had started alg in 5th grade and college alg was the next logical progression, that would be a much different scenario.

 

Fwiw, I Have had an 17 yr old son turn 50 shades of red based on some of the content in an English comp 101 class. My dd's class had a former prisoner describing in jail rapes, other students describing drug addictions, etc in their papers that had to be peer reviewed. When people are mentioning adult themes, some students don't understand the context of TMI.

Edited June 3, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Sebastian (a lady)]

FWIW, our experience is that the course called College Algebra may contain very different content from college to college.  

 

DS1 took College Algebra at College #1.  It was a 3 credit course that was the first semester of a two semester Pre-Calculus sequence.  It presumed familiarity with Algebra 2, including logarithms.  

 

At College #2, College Algebra is a course taken before Pre-Calculus.  The topics listed sound more like an algebra 1 class than even algebra 2.  

An extension of the elementary algebra sequence designed to prepare students for precalculus. Topics include simplification of algebraic and radical expressions, factoring, solution of linear, quadratic, absolute value and literal equations and inequalities, complex numbers, solution of linear and quadratic systems, logarithms and an introduction to functions and their graphs.

 

DS2 took the Pre-Calc sequence at College #2.  It was an easier sequence than the similar courses at College #1.  "College Algebra" at College #2 is a course with a college level course number.  The College Algebra course uses Blitzer's Algebra for College Students, which covers pretty standard algebra topics, not pre-calculus.

 

 

[justasque]

He's been doing Khan Academy & Coursera classes online for years. He's also very intuitive with math. It's also in-line with how he tests on his annual assessment where he has college-level scores for everything but reading. 

 

ENG 101 is not a class he would be taking for this degree program. 

 

OP, you probably already know this, but just in case - most standardized tests for K-12 students give a "grade equivalent" score - say, for example, a 6th grader gets a "11th grade equivalent" score.  My understanding is that this does NOT mean that the student is capable of doing 11th grade work, or has covered all of the 10th grade & under material.  Rather, it means that the student did as well on the 6th grade test as an average 11th grader would do.  

 

It might be wise, like another poster suggested, to do a bit of an assessment of where your ds is, by giving him placement tests or final exams from a rigorous Algebra 1 textbook, then perhaps a Geometry and Algebra II text, just to be sure that he has mastered the full skill set typically taught in these classes.

 

Perhaps you could also take a look at the topics covered in the course he is going to take, and see if your ds is ready for those specific topics.  (I've found it useful to compare the topics for the classe(s) just below the target course, also, to see where I think the student falls, skill-wise.

 

Generally speaking, I would only put a middle or high school student into a college course if I felt they had both the content background and the study skills, as well as the personal drive and motivation, to get a solid A in the class.  

[Lori D.]

Previous posters have already raised all of the red flags that I would have cautioned about, and provided loads of great insights and advice and additional questions for you to consider, so I will just respond to some of your other specific questions. :)

 

 

...Here are my revised plans. Too much? Not enough? Should I go way light on the first semester and see how it goes? 

 

… Freshman Seminar: required to take through the college (first semester)

… Math: taken online through the college (second semester) 

… Language Arts: Composition I (second semester) & Advanced Reading (first semester)

 

… Science: Elemental Science Chemistry for the Logic Stage

… Foreign Language: Japanese with his dad who's a linguist

… Current Events: Wired magazine articles that spark his interest to dig deeper

… Logic: Mind Benders

… Literature: Veritas Press 7th grade reading list

 

Number of dual credit courses per semester

For optimal success with dual enrollment, most families start with just one course that first semester and see how it goes. However, doing two "light" classes can be very do-able for a student just starting with dual enrollment.

 

The "Freshman Seminar" and "Advanced Reading" will probably be okay to take as the first two courses, as I would guess the first one is a sort of Study Skills course / how to access and use the cc's website for courses, finances, transcripts, etc. type of class. And the Advanced Reading is a remedial / high school level course. As long as DS is a strong reader, I think he will be okay with that course as a second dual credit class. Doing no more than half of the rigorous Omnibus program at home (in the semester opposite the Advanced Reading) would probably be okay.

 

On the other hand, doing College Algebra AND Composition 1 in the same semester (spring) *could* be disastrous if DS is not as solid in Writing and/or Math as needed, or if the courses move more quickly than he can handle. If you do go with the College Algebra AND Composition 1 in the same semester, do not add the very rigorous Omnibus program at home on top of that. At most, let DS select 3-4 of the books that are of most interest, and free-read.

 

Just my suggestions re: number of DE to start with:

1. Either ease in very gently with just the Freshman Seminar in fall and the Advanced Reading in spring; meanwhile at home, outsource Algebra 1 & 2 to DH and the math-y relatives, and work on solid Writing prep -- which will prepare DS for a strong showing in College Algebra and Composition 1 as 8th grade DE courses

 

2. OR, if DS is a strong reader, take Freshman Seminar and Advanced Reading in fall, and then Composition 1 in the spring; meanwhile at home, use the fall to work on getting a solid foundation of Writing skills for the Composition 1 in the spring, AND, outsource Algebra 1 & 2 to DH and the math-y relatives to prepare DS for a strong showing in College Algebra as an 8th grade DE course

 

Just my suggestions re: your home courses

1. Make time for Math at home

Whatever else you decide to do, I would strongly encourage doing Algebra 1 & 2 topics at home this summer and in the fall to be well-prepped for College Algebra in the spring. Or better yet, hold off on the College Algebra till 8th grade, and spend 7th grade getting solid with Algebra 1 & 2. What you don't want is for DS to walk into College Algebra "rusty" by not having done ANY Math for the 6 months prior.

 

2. Make time for Writing at home

Similarly with the Composition 1, use the fall semester (or better, all of 7th grade) to get solid with foundations of Writing. See if there is a syllabus online or available from the CC, and get a feel for what the course will cover, and use the semester (or year) in advance of taking Composition 1 to get DS very comfortable with the kinds of writing that Composition 1 will require… Very likely, things like writing multi-page expository and persuasive essays, citing sources, correct formatting, proof-editing, and strong structure: solid thesis statements, supporting examples / facts / details, commentary (sentences which explain how/why your examples support your points), and conclusions.

 

3. Nice "safety valve" classes

Having the light Current Events and Logic means those can be dropped (or ramped up) as you have time, to relieve pressure as needed. :)

 

4. Japanese

I'd suggest looking at what needs to be covered to make a foreign language worth 1.0 high school credit, and then give yourselves permission to do half of that work in 7th grade and complete that credit in 8th grade. That gives you extra time to get used to the dual enrollment, but also time to get used to a very unique foreign language. Then you can do the second 1.0 credit of Japanese in 9th grade, and you'll have your 2 credits of Foreign Language knocked out. :)

 

5. Veritas

When you say "Veritas Press 7th grade reading list", do you mean Omnibus 1? If so, that is a rigorous high school level program, and if done as written, it is typically counted as three high school credits, 1 each for History, Literature, and Philosophy/Theology. That would be quite ambitious to complete the entire program in one semester! ;) Is your plan to do half of the program as written for History, Philosophy/Theology, and Literature? Or just use books for one of those subjects? Or just have DS read a small handful of books of interest from the list?

 

 

...I'm not really sure how to proceed with the dual credit portion though. Since he's already been deemed "college ready" is the assumption that we'll skip middle school and just start working on high school/college in 7th grade? Or do we still have 6 years instead of 4 to work on college credits and start on high school credits in another 2 years? I have an appointment with the dual enrollment adviser through the college in a few weeks so I can ask more questions then, but wanted to get some feedback here first so I had kind of an idea of what we could do!

 

First, are you in a state that has required credits for high school graduation as a homeschooler? If so, you will want to know what those are and determine how you can fulfill those requirements between home and dual enrollment. (If you don't have have required credits, you may still want to loosely follow what your local high schools are doing just in case unexpected circumstances required your DS to attend a high school, or in case DS does end up wanting to attend a university -- you really don't want to be closing any doors at this young age, just in case! :) )

 

Whether DS takes 4 years or 6 years to complete high school and college credits… You will probably need to let this play out and see how he does with college-level courses and the work load. However, just based on the information you provided about the Associate's degree:

 

...Of the 26 classes he needs to take, 5 are not directly related to the kind of work he wants to do in the future...

 

...and knowing that there is often a very HIGH amount of outside of class time required to complete projects for Graphic Design courses, so that doing 3 courses per semester is a full load, I'd say you will most likely be looking at 6 years to complete both high school AND an Associate's Degree.

 

And also, esp. since you mention that only 5 of the 26 courses are not directly related to Graphic Design, which means fewer of the courses will be able to "double dip" and count towards high school credit requirements.

 

Typically, the credits required for awarding a high school diploma include the following (with 1 credit = 1 year high school course):

 

4 credits = English

3 credits = Math

3 credits = Science, with labs

2-3 credits = Social Science (usually 1 credit American History, and 0.5 credit each Econ. & Gov't)

2 credits = Foreign Language

1 credit = Fine Arts

4-8+ credits = Electives

 

Each 1 semester college-level course (so, NOT the remedial Advanced Reading, but yes for the College Math) usually counts as 1 YEAR of high school credit.

 

So, for example, the College Algebra would found as 1 credit, but you'd still need 2 more credits towards the high school diploma requirements. That's where taking the Algebra 1 and Algebra 2 in 7th grade would not only knock that out for you, but it would also make sure DS had a solid foundation for the College Algebra as DE.

 

The 2 semesters of community college Composition 1 and 2 would yield 2 credits, and the Advanced Reading would yield another 0.5 credit, for a total of 2.5 credits, but that would leave you with another 1.5 credits of English to accomplish at home. Doing 1.5 years of Omnibus during your middle and high school years could complete that for you.

 

The Science you are doing this year is solidly middle school level, so not able to count towards high school credit. But you could do some non-standard Sciences at home during high school to accomplish these credits -- Coursera courses, Teaching Company lecture series, and some hands-on experiments.

 

As long as you make sure that the Japanese done at home is of high school level in rigor/volume, it is perfectly fine to do it at "half speed" and take 3-4 years to complete 2 solid credits of Foreign Language.

 

All of the Graphic Design courses will very nicely fill out the Fine Arts and Electives with *loads* to spare… :)

 

Below is just one rough guess at what that might look like. BEST of luck in your DE adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

 

7th grade

fall

0.5 credit = Elective Freshman Seminar (DE course)

0.5 credit = English = Advanced Reading (DE course)

0.50-1.0 credit = Math: Algebra 1

0.25 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

- writing prep for DE Composition 1

- middle school Science

- middle school Logic

- middle school Current Events

spring

1.0 credit = English: Composition 1 (DE course)

0.5 credit = English: Omnibus Literature

0.5-1.0 credit = Math: Algebra 1 and/or Algebra 2

0.25 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

- middle school Science

- middle school Logic

- middle school Current Events

 

total DE courses = 3 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 2 credits English

- 1-2 credits Math

- 0.5 credit For. Lang.

____________________

 

8th grade

fall

1.0 credit = English: Composition 2 (DE course)

0.5-1.0 credit = Math: Algebra 2

0.25 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

0.50 credit = Science: high school level topic (possibly American History)

0.50 credit = Social Science: high school level topic (possibly Physical Science)

spring

1.0 credit = Math = College Algebra (DE course)

0.5 credit = English: Omnibus Literature

0.25 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

0.50 credit = Science: high school level topic

0.50 credit = Social Science: high school level topic

total DE courses = 5 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 3.5 credits English

- 3 credits Math

- 1 credit Science

- 1 credit Social Science

- 1 credit For. Lang.

____________________

 

9th grade

fall

2.0 credits = 2 DE classes

0.5 credit = English: Omnibus Literature

0.5 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

spring

2.0 credits = 2 DE classes

0.5 credit = Social Science (possibly History portion of Omnibus)

0.5 credit = Foreign Language: Japanese

 

total DE courses = 9 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 4 credits English

- 3 credits Math

- 1 credit Science

- 1.5 credits Social Science

- 2 credits For. Lang.

____________________

 

10th grade

fall

2.0 credits = 2 DE classes

0.5 credit = Science (possibly Conceptual Physics, Integrated Science, Earth Science, Environmental Science, Astronomy or other lighter science if not "into" science)

0.5 credit = Social Science (possibly History portion of Omnibus)

spring

2.0 credits = 2 DE classes

0.5 credit = Science

1.0 credit = Social Science (possibly 0.5 credit each of Econ and Gov't)

total DE courses = 13 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 4 credits English

- 3 credits Math

- 2 credits Science

- 3 credits Social Science

- 2 credits For. Lang.

____________________

 

11th grade

fall

3.0 credits = 3 DE classes

0.5 credit = Science

spring

3.0 credits = 3 DE classes

0.5 credit = Science

total DE courses = 19 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 4 credits English

- 3 credits Math

- 2 credits Science

- 3 credits Social Science

- 2 credits For. Lang.

____________________

 

12th grade

fall = 3 DE classes

spring = 4 DE classes

total DE courses = 26 of 26 required courses

total high school credits =

- 4 credits English (2.5 credits from DE)

- 3 credits Math (1 credit from DE)

- 2 credits Science

- 3 credits Social Science

- 2 credits For. Lang.

(1 credit Fine Arts from DE)

(many credits of Electives from DE graphic design courses)

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Lori D.

[mumto2]

My ds started taking college level classes at 14 for credit. He had also completed a number of Coursera classes previously which were a good jumping off point. My one warning is that while my ds was fully capable of doing the work it has been a serious supervision effort to make sure he completes his mainly online classes and doesn't miss things that are important to his final grade. We work really hard at staying on top of what his assignments are, when they are due, and has he actually turned them in (not just finished them). Things like number of comments on peer forums etc. are frequently important. Its not just the tests and final papers that make up his grades. I would start slow with one class and work up.

 

One cautionary comment, it appears to be common for many students to hand assignments in and take late points. This sets a bad example for a younger student. Dc's see this in their online classes where they have to wait until the last minute to do peer reviews because the majority hand assignments in late and accept late penalties. A friend's ds also experienced that in his in person Composition 101 class where everyone appeared to be DE. He was the only person handing his papers in on time. For both of the boys the "everyone else syndrome" has been hard work for the parents to counteract. A deadline is a deadline imo. Only a huge (severe illness etc) crisis is an excuse to miss a deadline, my friend feels the same.

 I want him to be employable right out of high school. The classes he will be taking directly relate to graphic design, not mature content that he couldn't handle. 

 

In addition to everything said above, I would also point out that in the arts fields, a degree of any kind doesn't guarantee a job.  Employers want to see the student's portfolio, and often value that more than the degree -- because they can directly see the kind of work the candidate can perform.  If your ds rushes through a graphic design AA while still young and less mature, will that be reflected in his portfolio?

[MeghanL]

 

Previous posters have already raised all of the red flags that I would have cautioned about, and provided loads of great insights and advice and additional questions for you to consider, so I will just respond to some of your other specific questions. :)

 

 

 

Lori, 

I didn't want to re-quote your whole post, but I did want to thank you profusely for all the time, thought and help you provided with it. That was exactly what I was looking for, but thought I'd have to put it in that type of format through multiple posts, lol! Thank you again so much!!

[elegantlion]

 

He is not the most mature or motivated kid, so I can see that could be a HUGE problem. On the other hand, he seems to do well with older kids (typical with kids on the autism spectrum) and might work harder to impress them/a teacher other than me. My plan is to certainly start slow and not rush into anything. But, it also seems like it has such potential to be a really good thing for him at this point in his life. 

 

How does he do with deadlines? This was a big adjustment for ds who always preferred to amble through school work. Will you be given any oversight as a parent of a younger student or do standard rules apply that all communication is solely with the student? How does he do advocating for himself? These are some of the skills I would look at in addition to the academic level. 

 

Personally, I would not do a remedial class either. 

[Shalott25]

He has a lot on his plate, especially for 7th grade.  I suggest dropping the literature text.  His college English class will keep him busy.  If he is not too overwhelmed, add in a novel or two.  I'd keep it informal though.  If he is not taking a literature class second semester, you can add a literature text or just read novels.