UPDATE #52 So one Facebook post and I may need to reevaluate all our schooling

[ktgrok]

My son is planning on doing dual enrollment pretty much full time his junior and senior year. He's been taking one course a semester now. We cannot continue to homeschool him...it just isn't working for a myriad of reasons. This was our best option. Well, it seems there is an obscure line in the agreement for homeschoolers that is NOT in the agreement for public school students, that says that they are no longer eligible for DE after the spring semester in the year they turn 18. In other words, kids like my son that started late, or were held back for any reason, won't be eligible their senior year. My son has Aspergers, working memory issues, ADHD, etc and was NOT ready or able to do kindergarten on time. He has a July birthday, cut off was end of August. We held him back and started him the following year. It has been the right decision all this time. I've never regretted it. 

 

Now, it looks like that means he can't do DE his senior year. And if you are ineligible for DE there is no way to take classes there until after you graduate. This is not a motivated student, i don't see him graduating early. So..yeah. 

 

I have emails in to the DE office to clarify. If he can't DE his senior year I don't know what we will do. I really don't. Oh, and to make it worse? To be eligible for the state scholarships for college you have to be either in private school for junior/senior year OR homeschooled junior/senior year OR public schooled junior/senior year. you can't mix and match. So if we are going to do private school instead, that has to happen this coming fall. 

 

I am not pleased. I honestly don't know what on earth we will do. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by ktgrok

[The Governess]

Wow, that's tough. How does he do with online classes? Any live classes for homeschoolers in your area?

[Melissa B]

Could you register as a public school student the summer before junior year and do full time dual enrollment? It sounds like public school students can be older.

[Farrar]

:( I hate how these cut offs and rules can be so strict as to be anti-common sense sometimes. Our district has been trying to move toward being as open and flexible with high school rules and credits as possible, which I think is nice, but some places seem to have more strict rules... I hope you get it figured out.

[Katy]

Are the public schools in your area that terrible for high school students on IEP's?  I would think you could arrange for most or all of his classes to be dual enrollment while also graduating from public high school in Florida.  We don't live there any more, but that's the distinct impression I got from a relative who's also the mother of a child with Autism who got an AA concurrently with high school.  She did live in a more rural area than you though, so it's possible they were more flexible than in a larger area.

[The Governess]

Could you register as a public school student the summer before junior year and do full time dual enrollment? It sounds like public school students can be older.

This is a good thought. Is there an independent study option through your public school district?

[Kfamily]

Hmmm,

 

Our local community college, in which many homeschoolers take advantage of the option for dual-enrollment, has the same rule about not being eligible after 18. On further digging, I discovered that he/she was eligible for classes as long as she had enrolled in her classes before turning 19. We had absolutely no issues and no questions were asked, even though the school board had her birth date and enrolled year of high school on their forms and the college had the same information.

 

Edited April 23, 2016 by Kfamily

[mom2att]

Oh my Katie--I'm in your state and will be in a similar situation next year. Please post an update if anything changes--I had planned on DE for my son's junior and senior years as well, and he's an August b-day who started a year late, so he'll be 18 for all of his senior year. Yikes!

[ktgrok]

My issue with putting him in public school and doing all DE is that I think he would then still have to take some of the end of year course exams for classes he has already taken. Which would be a big issue, and a lot of PIA. 

 

Looking to see if they have the same cut off for private schools, as then he could do an umbrella school. That's do-able. Not ideal, but do-able. 

[Katy]

My issue with putting him in public school and doing all DE is that I think he would then still have to take some of the end of year course exams for classes he has already taken. Which would be a big issue, and a lot of PIA. 

 

Looking to see if they have the same cut off for private schools, as then he could do an umbrella school. That's do-able. Not ideal, but do-able. 

 

Can IEP's mean he doesn't have to take the graduation exam?  I can't remember re Florida, but you could perhaps write it in his plan not to.

 

ETA:  Yes, it's possible to get around the exam if I understand this correctly:  http://www.fldoe.org/academics/graduation-requirements

Edited April 20, 2016 by Katy

[meena]

Is this something that's written in the state law? I'm also in your state and haven't read anything regarding an age cut-off for DE eligibility. But I'm only in the beginning stages of planning how we will utilize DE.

[ktgrok]

This might be a dumb question but could you do an online DE out of area or state?

 

I don't think so...I don't think most universities take students other than in their area for DE. And we'd have to pay out of pocket then. His scholarship only covers public florida colleges. 

[Tsuga]

This might be a dumb question but could you do an online DE out of area or state?

There will be an age cutoff anywhere to prevent people from thinking, "I know how to get two years of free college, I will just pull them out their senior year and homeschool them and hold them back a year!"

 

And believe me people would do it if they could.

 

I know that makes it hard for those who have homeschooled all the way through but some people have to ruin it for everyone. Why we can't have nice things, etc.

[Lady Florida.]

My son is planning on doing dual enrollment pretty much full time his junior and senior year. He's been taking one course a semester now. We cannot continue to homeschool him...it just isn't working for a myriad of reasons. This was our best option. Well, it seems there is an obscure line in the agreement for homeschoolers that is NOT in the agreement for public school students, that says that they are no longer eligible for DE after the spring semester in the year they turn 18. In other words, kids like my son that started late, or were held back for any reason, won't be eligible their senior year. My son has Aspergers, working memory issues, ADHD, etc and was NOT ready or able to do kindergarten on time. He has a July birthday, cut off was end of August. We held him back and started him the following year. It has been the right decision all this time. I've never regretted it. 

 

Now, it looks like that means he can't do DE his senior year. And if you are ineligible for DE there is no way to take classes there until after you graduate. This is not a motivated student, i don't see him graduating early. So..yeah. 

 

I have emails in to the DE office to clarify. If he can't DE his senior year I don't know what we will do. I really don't. Oh, and to make it worse? To be eligible for the state scholarships for college you have to be either in private school for junior/senior year OR homeschooled junior/senior year OR public schooled junior/senior year. you can't mix and match. So if we are going to do private school instead, that has to happen this coming fall. 

 

I am not pleased. I honestly don't know what on earth we will do. 

 

Katie, I'm off to an eye doctor appointment. Ds has adhd, is 18, and in dual enrollment. I'll get with you later today when I get home. It might be after dinner, depending on how the rest of the day goes.

 

Do keep in mind that colleges have a bit of freedom in how they handle DE, homeschoolers, and homeschoolers who do DE. We're in different counties and different colleges. Still, I'll write a longer post about what I know.

[goldberry]

What state is this?  In our state we have early college high schools, where they actually let kids continue there up until age 20 to get their DE paid for.

[goldberry]

There will be an age cutoff anywhere to prevent people from thinking, "I know how to get two years of free college, I will just pull them out their senior year and homeschool them and hold them back a year!"

 

 

 

Well, as I was saying, there is actually a setup for that in my state, offered through the state... so....

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well you might not like this idea at all, but what about having him take the GED?  Then he could matriculate and get financial aid.

 

 

[ktgrok]

So, more research turned up the actual laws governing Dual Enrollment. First, for public school students it specifically says GRADES 6-12, with NO mention of age. Moreover, it goes on to say that the eligibility requirements for home education students CANNOT exceed those for other dual enrollment students. So...seems they may not be legally allowed to do this. 

 

Not sure I have time to fight this, not sure I can afford not to . UGH!

[DawnM]

How much is actual enrollment?  Could you just pay it after he turns 18.  Our CC is quite inexpensive.  Don't get me wrong, I love the FREE tuition, but if we had to pay it is still much cheaper than any private school option.

[Katy]

So, more research turned up the actual laws governing Dual Enrollment. First, for public school students it specifically says GRADES 6-12, with NO mention of age. Moreover, it goes on to say that the eligibility requirements for home education students CANNOT exceed those for other dual enrollment students. So...seems they may not be legally allowed to do this. 

 

Not sure I have time to fight this, not sure I can afford not to . UGH!

 

You may not need to.  Just print out the law, take it to them, and insist on them processing the paperwork correctly because you, "Really don't want to be forced to go over their heads to ensure they follow the law."

 

I've found that sort of thing works in a myriad of situations.  If not, a $100 letter from a lawyer should fix it without further action, especially if it is clear that if you are forced to file a lawsuit against them you will be suing for legal costs too.

[meena]

It shouldn't be something you have to pursue extensively as an individual, especially if it's a matter that is covered by the state statute outlining the rules of DE for home educated students. I'd contact our state HS org if you get any pushback. They've fought hard for HS students to have similar rights as private and public schooled students.

[ktgrok]

How much is actual enrollment?  Could you just pay it after he turns 18.  Our CC is quite inexpensive.  Don't get me wrong, I love the FREE tuition, but if we had to pay it is still much cheaper than any private school option.

 

Nope. It's not the money that is the issue, its that after he turns 18 it is no longer considered dual enrollment. He'd have to apply as degree seeking student, which means he'd no longer be considered a freshman for college application purposes after that. He'd be a transfer student. 

[ktgrok]

It shouldn't be something you have to pursue extensively as an individual, especially if it's a matter that is covered by the state statute outlining the rules of DE for home educated students. I'd contact our state HS org if you get any pushback. They've fought hard for HS students to have similar rights as private and public schooled students.

Theses wha tI think I'll be doing if I need to. My next step as it were. I already gave them a heads up on their Facebook page, but will email them directly. 

 

Because from what I'm reading, I'm right, and I know my sister, who is a public school admin, says that colleges give all sorts of crap about dual enrollment, even for public school kids, but if you press them on it with the law they will back down. Hoping that is the case here. 

[ktgrok]

This is the law...I've put  the relevant parts in RED:

 

 

  The 2015 Florida Statutes
  Title XLVIII
K-20 EDUCATION CODE Chapter 1007 
ARTICULATION AND ACCESS View Entire Chapter

1007.271 Dual enrollment programs.—

(1) The dual enrollment program is the enrollment of an eligible secondary student or home education student in a postsecondary course creditable toward high school completion and a career certificate or an associate or baccalaureate degree. A student who is enrolled in postsecondary instruction that is not creditable toward a high school diploma may not be classified as a dual enrollment student.

(2) For the purpose of this section, an eligible secondary student is a student who is enrolled in any of grades 6 through 12 in a Florida public school or in a Florida private school ........

 

Then:

(13)(a) The dual enrollment program for home education students consists of the enrollment of an eligible home education secondary student in a postsecondary course creditable toward an associate degree, a career certificate, or a baccalaureate degree. To participate in the dual enrollment program, an eligible home education secondary student must:

1. Provide proof of enrollment in a home education program pursuant to s. 1002.41.

2. Be responsible for his or her own instructional materials and transportation unless provided for otherwise.

3. Sign a home education articulation agreement pursuant to paragraph (b).

(b) Each postsecondary institution shall enter into a home education articulation agreement with each home education student seeking enrollment in a dual enrollment course and the student’s parent. The home education articulation agreement shall include, at a minimum:

1. A delineation of courses and programs available to dually enrolled home education students. Courses and programs may be added, revised, or deleted at any time by the postsecondary institution.

2. The initial and continued eligibility requirements for home education student participation, not to exceed those required of other dually enrolled students.

3. The student’s responsibilities for providing his or her own instructional materials and transportation.

4. A copy of the statement on transfer guarantees developed by the Department of Education under subsection (15).

 

 

The articulation agreement the college has is the thing that is saying they can't be over 18. But, as that statute there says, they are not supposed to make the eligibility different than public school students, and they do not list an age for public school students. Right?

[Kfamily]

This is taken from the dual-enrollment form's list of eligibility requirements needed for dd's college:

 

 

Be at least 15 years of age and not more than 18 years of age by the first day of class for the term in which they plan to enroll.

 

You can see from this excerpt that the idea is not to exceed the age of 18 by the first day of class for that term...you can turn 19 during the term but not be 19 on the first day. If your son has a July birthday, then won't he be eligible all year, because he'll still be 18 for his entire senior year?

 

I would check with the community college itself.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Kfamily

[ktgrok]

I'm in the same state as you are and I think it might depend on the particular community college itself.

 

This is taken from the dual-enrollment form's list of eligibility requirements needed for dd's college:

 

 

Be at least 15 years of age and not more than 18 years of age by the first day of class for the term in which they plan to enroll.

 

You can see from this excerpt that the idea is not to exceed the age of 18 by the first day of class for that term...you can turn 19 during the term but not be 19 on the first day. If your son has a July birthday, then won't he be eligible all year, because he'll still be 18 for his entire senior year?

 

I would check with the community college itself.

 

I am dealing with the college itself, they are the ones that say you cannot be 18 before the first day of class. Not 19, but 18. And the state laws say that they cannot make eligibility requirements more than public school students have. They can't ignore the law, so hopefully this will get straightened out.

[Kfamily]

Ahh...well, in that case, that is frustrating! I hope something works out! :)

[lewber]

I am dealing with the college itself, they are the ones that say you cannot be 18 before the first day of class. Not 19, but 18. And the state laws say that they cannot make eligibility requirements more than public school students have. They can't ignore the law, so hopefully this will get straightened out.

 

This doesn't seem to make sense - because almost everyone turns 18 their senior year - over half of them from September - December, which means then they couldn't do the second semester? Or is still a calendar year? 

 

I think you'll have a year grace period. My DS is old for his grade and sometimes I read stuff that sounds like he is too old, but in reality I am off a year. I sure hope so for you - that doesn't make any sense. 

 

Good luck! 

[ktgrok]

This doesn't seem to make sense - because almost everyone turns 18 their senior year - over half of them from September - December, which means then they couldn't do the second semester? Or is still a calendar year? 

 

I think you'll have a year grace period. My DS is old for his grade and sometimes I read stuff that sounds like he is too old, but in reality I am off a year. I sure hope so for you - that doesn't make any sense. 

 

Good luck! 

 

It's only for students that turn 18 before September 1st, from June to september I think. It only effects summer birthdays. Basically, they are going by the normal age/grade cut off, but many students don't fall into that for whatever reason. 

[Hilltopmom]

Can he take classes as a "non matriculated student" rather than as DE or a degree seeking student?

 

Here, we don't have actual DE, just homeschool kids can take classes as non matric. students, just like any student who isn't matriculated & just wants to take a few classes.

 

We pay full price though.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[lewber]

It's only for students that turn 18 before September 1st, from June to september I think. It only effects summer birthdays. Basically, they are going by the normal age/grade cut off, but many students don't fall into that for whatever reason. 

 

I hope you get it worked out - that seems like it would affect a lot of students. That's a strict cutoff. 

[ktgrok]

Can he take classes as a "non matriculated student" rather than as DE or a degree seeking student?

 

Here, we don't have actual DE, just homeschool kids can take classes as non matric. students, just like any student who isn't matriculated & just wants to take a few classes.

 

We pay full price though.

 

No. I asked that and was told the only option would be to enroll as degree seeking, and then he'd have to apply to colleges as a transfer student the following year :(

[Lady Florida.]

My entire long post with quotes and everything is missing. Not sure what I clicked, but it must not have been "post reply".   :banghead:

[Mom22ns]

There definitely are community colleges that allow high school students not in their area to take classes online. So, if he does ok with online classes and you can't get this worked out, he could do DE on-line through an out of state CC. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

My sister is checking to make sure this isn't in the agreement with the county public school as well. Making sure it isn't something in there that they just ignore, you know? Because she KNOWS they have 18 year olds taking DE classes, so either they have different rules for public and home education students (against the law) or they have the same rules but just ignore them for public school students. In that case I did find out that they only EOC exam they have to pass to graduate is Algebra I, and he actually took that one :)

 

The rest they are supposed to take, but they don't have to pass. She says she never makes transfer students take them, but if his school did the score would't matter. Also, our state passed a law allowing students to transfer to any public school, so I could enroll him in her school across town, but do all DE. I'd still have to make sure he met the public school graduation requirements, like their stupid PE course that I didn't make him take (it's this awful fitness course), and there are other drawbacks. I'd also have to see how that would work for Bright Futures, as they require grades in accredited classes and it's very confusing. 

[ktgrok]

Just got an email back that no, public and private school students do not have an age cut off, only homeschool students. Which seems to be very much agains the law. I nicely pointed that out and asked who I could speak to in order to rectify that issue. They said they needed to speak to someone else about it. I'll give them some time, then probably contact a lawyer. Ugh. 

 

Oh, and I emailed FPEA to see if they want to get involved. Guess I could join something like HSLDA or just hire a regular lawyer. 

 

Meanwhile trying to find if there are any umbrella schools with a current articulation agreement with this college. 

[Guest2]

Just curious, is there a designation on the cc transcript indicating that a course is dual credit? It sounds like you have a really impressive solid plan to adress all of this, but I was wondering if you could circumvent it all. Could you continue to designate it as dual credti( as it is) on your transcript, even if their paper work designated him differently? Would the transcript from the cc look any different? Could you explain it in your school profile? Just an idea, but I guess you would still want to cover all of your bases.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Silver Brook

[ktgrok]

Just curious, is there a designation on the cc transcript indicating that a course is dual credit? It sounds like you have a really impressive solid plan to adress all of this, but I was wondering if you could circumvent it all, by jumping through whatever crazy hoops they have and continuing to designate it as dual credti( as it is) on your transcript . Would the transcript from the cc look any different? Just an idea, but I guess you would still want to cover all of your bases.

 

I believe he would ave to submit a transcript from the community college and yes, it would say if he was degree seeking I believe. 

[Guest2]

Oh, ok. Sorry I was editing for all of my visual errors at the same time, an added a little. Probably not a good idea to leave this to chance.

[DawnM]

Nope. It's not the money that is the issue, its that after he turns 18 it is no longer considered dual enrollment. He'd have to apply as degree seeking student, which means he'd no longer be considered a freshman for college application purposes after that. He'd be a transfer student. 

 

Gotcha.  

[Reefgazer]

We have private schools around here that allow us to buy a class singly, or two classes, or three? Is that an option?

[Hilltopmom]

It's odd he can't just take classes as a non matriculated student.

 

All their students are matriculated?- people can't just take a class here & there without applying to a degree program? I'd re check on that.

[ktgrok]

It's odd he can't just take classes as a non matriculated student.

 

All their students are matriculated?- people can't just take a class here & there without applying to a degree program? I'd re check on that.

 

 

Either way, any classes taken other than dual enrollment count towards college credit, and mean he wouldn't be seen as a freshman for scholarship and admittance purposes. 

[FloridaLisa]

Katie, 

 

I'm in Florida and have had so far 2 of my children who were red-shirted and they dual enrolled with no problems. The CCs are getting so quirky. It's crazy what I hear coming from some of the CCs and it differs from one to another. 

 

So, if I'm understanding, the CC has already told you your son isn't eligible or won't be eligible in 12th grade? 

 

I would, first, contact Brenda Dickinson, and put her onto this issue. Her phone call alone might straighten it out. 

 

You could also consider putting him into an umbrella as a private school student but there are other problems with that option right now in certain Florida counties. 

 

Have you talked to Brenda? 

[ktgrok]

Katie, 

 

I'm in Florida and have had so far 2 of my children who were red-shirted and they dual enrolled with no problems. The CCs are getting so quirky. It's crazy what I hear coming from some of the CCs and it differs from one to another. 

 

So, if I'm understanding, the CC has already told you your son isn't eligible or won't be eligible in 12th grade? 

 

I would, first, contact Brenda Dickinson, and put her onto this issue. Her phone call alone might straighten it out. 

 

You could also consider putting him into an umbrella as a private school student but there are other problems with that option right now in certain Florida counties. 

 

Have you talked to Brenda? 

Yes, the directly told me, in writing, that he cannot attend his 12th grade year if he turns 18 on or before August 31st. And they said in writing that this only applies to homeschool students. I'm pursing the idea of an umbrella school but most don't have agreements with Valencia right now (the college we are dealing with). Waiting to hear back from one of them. 

 

I actually don't know how to contact Brenda Dickson, is her contact info on the FPEA website anywhere? I emailed FPEA twice but have not received a reply. 

 

Edited to Add: Found her...she's with this group, right? http://www.flhef.org

Edited April 23, 2016 by ktgrok

[SebastianCat]

I emailed Brenda Dickinson recently with some questions about an unrelated topic, and she replied very quickly with very helpful feedback. Yes, the link you listed is correct.

 

Is Valencia the only college option for DE? Here in Tampa we can DE at two local colleges.

[ktgrok]

I emailed Brenda Dickinson recently with some questions about an unrelated topic, and she replied very quickly with very helpful feedback. Yes, the link you listed is correct.

 

Is Valencia the only college option for DE? Here in Tampa we can DE at two local colleges.

 

Here it goes by what county you live in. We are in Orange, so Valencia is our option. Seminole State is actually closer, but in Seminole County and only takes students for DE if they are in Seminole County. I have emailed them to see if there is a way around that. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What I find with stuff like this is if you ask 10 people what the rules are, they tell you 10 different things.  I'm in planning mode right now myself and I am getting dizzy from all the contradictory information I'm encountering.  Nobody seems to understand the regs.  Nobody can give me any kind of clear answer that'll make me feel like I know what the right track is.  I do not like this kind of uncertainty and especially not when it involves my kid's future. 

 

Hence why I suggested the GED to you.  I may go that route, begrudgingly, because nobody is going to argue with it. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

What I find with stuff like this is if you ask 10 people what the rules are, they tell you 10 different things.  I'm in planning mode right now myself and I am getting dizzy from all the contradictory information I'm encountering.  Nobody seems to understand the regs.  Nobody can give me any kind of clear answer that'll make me feel like I know what the right track is.  I do not like this kind of uncertainty and especially not when it involves my kid's future. 

 

Hence why I suggested the GED to you.  I may go that route, begrudgingly, because nobody is going to argue with it. 

 

Well, they actually showed me where the rule book for the school states this, so it is definietly the rule. The question is if that rule is legal. Appears not to be. 

 

but yes, GED is one option, but he's not ready to graduate yet, really. 

[Janeway]

You should contest that. The cut off for kinder here is Sept 1. So that would mean my 3 September birthday kids could not do dual enrollment spring of their senior year. That would be ridiculous.