The Secret Shame of Middle Class Americans

[SparklyUnicorn]

I will say this...  even though we somewhat do the Dave Ramsey thing, there is no way $1,000 is enough of an emergency fund when you own a house, beater cars, have kids and don't have any credit cards.  An emergency credit card is fine.  A $5,000 fund should be sufficient, but $1,000 is definitely not.

 

Yeah $1000 strikes me as an outdated amount or that guy lives in a very low cost area or assumes a person has help of some kind.  Good grief I've had relatively minor car repairs that cost that. 

[DawnM]

Just a note about WDW: It doesn't have to be expensive. We took our family of eight, and the whole trip was about $1000.

 

We drove there, pitched a tent, ate meals from a backpack full if PBJ sandwiches, and bought tickets when they were having a reduced rate special. Those ticket prices were good only in February when visitation is down, but as homeschoolers that didn't matter to us. No overpriced souvenirs other than pictures, and drinks from the public water fountains.

 

The kids loved it.

 

 

How long ago was this?  Prices have changed.  Drastically.  They no longer give the discount to adults or anyone who is not a homeschool student.  Homeschool student prices have gone up too.  $163 for a 2 day non-hopper pass each and up to $281 for a 5 day non-hopper pass.  And that is the discounted student, the parent price is more than that.  

 

The last two years, since they have changed the pricing, we have opted to not go.  Last year we did Universal instead.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh absolutely.  I'm not only making assumptions.  In some cases I have known someone well enough to know their details. 

[HS Mom in NC]

I agree that buying a used car that you expect to last can be more complicated.  I have never done it because I don't feel expert enough to evaluate a used car, and I don't trust salesmen.  :p  I do know people who have had success with used cars, but I wasn't up to the uncertainty once I could afford a modest new car.

 

 

 

 

If you can truly afford  the new one, that's fine but that's not how it works buying used.  People who successfully choose reliable used cars aren't car experts. 

 

1. They look up repair records for models online.  There are plenty of sources for this.  I'll save you the trouble because we've done it, the most reliable inexpensive car is a Toyota Corolla. We've owned 2 because my kids drive them and they could afford to buy them from for cheap or buy their own cheap. One is 10 years older than the other and still only needs regular oil changes and break maintenance. It gets great gas mileage.  It has 4 doors, so a family with 2 kids in carseats could get by with it. That's why it's the most popular car in the US.

 

2. Buy a car certified used from a dealer (more expensive than buying from a private owner but still cheaper than buying new) or ask your local friends for the name of an honest mechanic.  Call the mechanic's shop about appointment times for the mechanic to look at the car for you.  (This is not a very expensive sevice.) Then call the person selling the car and ask them which of those times works for them and have them bring the car there. 

 

It's not hard and it saves a lot of money in the long run-a lot.

[mom2scouts]

I'm not sure about expensive colleges. My oldest went to an expensive private college without any help from us. The school gave him significant need-based and merit aid. He got a work-study job that paid well above minimum wage and provided experience related to his field of study. He took loans out for the rest. When he graduated he had several good job offers, including one from the university itself that allowed him to take free grad courses. After a couple of years, he was being recruited by several major companies and the fact that he has a degree from this particular school is a large part of his appeal. Graduates of this school seem almost guaranteed a good job. He was hired within a week by a major international company that makes it easy to afford his college loans and he frequently gets calls asking him to interview for other jobs. In some cases, the prestigious school may pay off. 

[Guest]

Oh yeah crazy. I did once meet up with someone for bowling and at the end she confessed she was too broke for the bowling. In her case that I believe, but um gee it would have been far less obnoxious to tell me that beforehand.

I went on a date with a guy once who sat for an hour without a beer and then when I asked him if he was getting a drink, sheepishly mentioned he had no money on him. Grudgingly, I offered to buy him a beer. Then, he said, "actually, I haven't had anything to eat today, either." Wow. Not really working terribly hard for that second date, huh. ;)

[DawnM]

I'm not sure about expensive colleges. My oldest went to an expensive private college without any help from us. The school gave him significant need-based and merit aid. He got a work-study job that paid well above minimum wage and provided experience related to his field of study. He took loans out for the rest. When he graduated he had several good job offers, including one from the university itself that allowed him to take free grad courses. After a couple of years, he was being recruited by several major companies and the fact that he has a degree from this particular school is a large part of his appeal. Graduates of this school seem almost guaranteed a good job. He was hired within a week by a major international company that makes it easy to afford his college loans and he frequently gets calls asking him to interview for other jobs. In some cases, the prestigious school may pay off. 

 

 

My husband went to a more prestigious school for grad school.  He was pretty much guaranteed a job after finishing as well.

 

This was in 1996, but here was our dilemma at the time:

 

Cheaper School, low tier, $4K per year but program took two full years

Prestigious School: Top tier, $30K, but program took 12 months (3 semesters including summer.)

 

We sat down and ran the numbers.  With him NOT working for that 2nd year, the cheaper school would end up costing MORE even in the short run.  But the real difference was in the long run, getting a well paying job after one year, and more room for advancement vs. no income for two years and lower paying job at the end.

 

He went to the better school and it really paid off.  He was able to pay back his student loan in just a few years' time.

[DawnM]

This was a few years ago. And I'll admit that we haven't gone to WDW since the latest round of changes.

 

 

Yeah, I was so happy to do Disney for 8 full days with hoppers for all 5 of us for less than $1200.  It was a wonderful time.  Now, that same package is over $2000 for just tickets.

 

We don't know when we will go again, although some of our hesitation is because we now have kids in school and I am looking to go back to work in the Fall, so our schedules won't allow homeschool tickets anymore.

 

it is ok, we are just at a new stage in our lives.

[HS Mom in NC]

I will say this...  even though we somewhat do the Dave Ramsey thing, there is no way $1,000 is enough of an emergency fund when you own a house, beater cars, have kids and don't have any credit cards.  An emergency credit card is fine.  A $5,000 fund should be sufficient, but $1,000 is definitely not.

 

Yeah, I agree in a household with cars and kids and such, $1,000 probably isn't sufficient, but it's a start. 

And yes, I think there are people who can own an emergency credit card who will only use it for true emergencies.  Remember that the Dave Ramsay books are written to a general audience and people who have finally woken up to realize they have spending problems.  Also, far too many Americans categorize things as necessities and emergencies that aren't really.  I do think there are plenty of people who really should avoid all credit cards though.  They are so far gone or struggle so much with impulse control when it comes to finances that they're better of downsizing and selling things to get cash.  Not everyone can drink alcohol and stay in control.  Not everyone can have a credit card and stay in control.

[SKL]

If you can truly afford  the new one, that's fine but that's not how it works buying used.  People who successfully choose reliable used cars aren't car experts. 

 

1. They look up repair records for models online.  There are plenty of sources for this.  I'll save you the trouble because we've done it, the most reliable inexpensive car is a Toyota Corolla. We've owned 2 because my kids drive them and they could afford to buy them from for cheap or buy their own cheap. One is 10 years older than the other and still only needs regular oil changes and break maintenance. It gets great gas mileage.  It has 4 doors, so a family with 2 kids in carseats could get by with it. That's why it's the most popular car in the US.

 

2. Buy a car certified used from a dealer (more expensive than buying from a private owner but still cheaper than buying new) or ask your local friends for the name of an honest mechanic.  Call the mechanic's shop about appointment times for the mechanic to look at the car for you.  (This is not a very expensive sevice.) Then call the person selling the car and ask them which of those times works for them and have them bring the car there. 

 

It's not hard and it saves a lot of money in the long run-a lot.

 

Your #1 was not an option when I was in that income range.  However, I'll be teaching my kids about that.

 

I am not sure it "saves a lot of money in the long run" compared to buying a good car new and using it for many years.  The resale value of a really good car is not that low.  But some people simply can't front the money for a new car that is going to last some years longer than a used car.  So whatever works for them.

[BarbecueMom]

I call this Turkey Syndrome in my family.

 

Every year growing up, my mom would make a full Thanksgiving meal the Sunday before the holiday, because my brother and I went to my dad's on Thursday. After we stopped going and were present at the actual family gathering, she kept doing it, because it was tradition. So, two massive turkey dinners every year.

 

And it never fails, every November I hear, "I NEED to get the turkey but they are sooo expensive and I have all these other bills..."

 

And I say, "You don't need a turkey. Turkeys are not a need. Holiday traditions are not a need. Duplicate holiday traditions are definitely not a need." She then gets all upset and accuses me of being too logical and an emotionless robot who hates traditions. Fine, she has a point, but I'm right too. I also hate turkey.

 

Needs are few, everything else is a choice. You NEED to eat something on the fourth Thursday in November, but you CHOOSE to have a traditional holiday menu with a large expensive hunk of meat. You NEED a roof over your head, but you CHOOSE to live in a place that is large enough to host guests for that blasted turkey dinner.

 

I told her, after the eighty billionth time of helping her with a budget, that unless she can wrap her mind around the fact that most of her "non-negotiable" things in life are actually choices, she's not going to get ahead financially.

 

Note: this applies to people that have the income and circumstances to make choices, I am aware that excrement occurs. Turkey is gross, but not excrement.

[Katy]

I call this Turkey Syndrome in my family.

 

Every year growing up, my mom would make a full Thanksgiving meal the Sunday before the holiday, because my brother and I went to my dad's on Thursday. After we stopped going and were present at the actual family gathering, she kept doing it, because it was tradition. So, two massive turkey dinners every year.

 

And it never fails, every November I hear, "I NEED to get the turkey but they are sooo expensive and I have all these other bills..."

 

And I say, "You don't need a turkey. Turkeys are not a need. Holiday traditions are not a need. Duplicate holiday traditions are definitely not a need." She then gets all upset and accuses me of being too logical and an emotionless robot who hates traditions. Fine, she has a point, but I'm right too. I also hate turkey.

 

Needs are few, everything else is a choice. You NEED to eat something on the fourth Thursday in November, but you CHOOSE to have a traditional holiday menu with a large expensive hunk of meat. You NEED a roof over your head, but you CHOOSE to live in a place that is large enough to host guests for that blasted turkey dinner.

 

I told her, after the eighty billionth time of helping her with a budget, that unless she can wrap her mind around the fact that most of her "non-negotiable" things in life are actually choices, she's not going to get ahead financially.

 

Note: this applies to people that have the income and circumstances to make choices, I am aware that excrement occurs. Turkey is gross, but not excrement.

 

I hate turkey too.  Last year I successfully convinced my family to have a lasagna dinner instead.  Not much cheaper, but infinitely more delicious!

[Murphy101]

I have no problem with people paying for private primary school. As the divide between the have and have not widens, so does the quality of the education available. We can argue that it shouldn't, but it flat out does. And absolutely education makes a difference in long term prospects.

 

I don't give a toot about keeping up with the jones' or hob-nobbing with "important" people.

 

But I do care that my kids are not screwed out of a quality education and networking opportunities that can impact their life for decades to come just bc I wasn't willing to take a financial risk on their behalf. Especially in an ever squeezing job market.

 

It doesn't have to be a crazy risk. We don't have any loans for their education and neither do they. Yet. But we have most certainly stressed and gave thought to not just the cost of the education, but what opportunities it will give them.

 

If we couldn't home school for some reason, I'd mortgage the house if I had to to get them in a decent private school. The public schools wouldn't even be a consideration to me.

[Ravin]

I call this Turkey Syndrome in my family.

 

Every year growing up, my mom would make a full Thanksgiving meal the Sunday before the holiday, because my brother and I went to my dad's on Thursday. After we stopped going and were present at the actual family gathering, she kept doing it, because it was tradition. So, two massive turkey dinners every year.

 

And it never fails, every November I hear, "I NEED to get the turkey but they are sooo expensive and I have all these other bills..."

 

And I say, "You don't need a turkey. Turkeys are not a need. Holiday traditions are not a need. Duplicate holiday traditions are definitely not a need." She then gets all upset and accuses me of being too logical and an emotionless robot who hates traditions. Fine, she has a point, but I'm right too. I also hate turkey.

 

Needs are few, everything else is a choice. You NEED to eat something on the fourth Thursday in November, but you CHOOSE to have a traditional holiday menu with a large expensive hunk of meat. You NEED a roof over your head, but you CHOOSE to live in a place that is large enough to host guests for that blasted turkey dinner.

 

I told her, after the eighty billionth time of helping her with a budget, that unless she can wrap her mind around the fact that most of her "non-negotiable" things in life are actually choices, she's not going to get ahead financially.

 

Note: this applies to people that have the income and circumstances to make choices, I am aware that excrement occurs. Turkey is gross, but not excrement.

 

I disagree. Culture, family, and other social connections are needs. They are higher-level needs than food and shelter, perhaps, but they are still needs. 

[Wheres Toto]

I was just thinking about this the other day.  I was hanging with another mom and she had suggested doing a group activity at my house.  I don't really invite anybody to my house - it's tiny, ramshackle, ugly.  But it got me thinking about financial decisions.    At this point the only decision that would make any impact on our finances would be if I went back to work again but put the kids in school.   I recently quit my job but since my entire paycheck went to the kids teacher and I was working for the benefits, quitting didn't really affect much.   Dh makes very decent money but we are in a HCOL area.  We can't really afford to move and we both have elderly parents in the vicinity.  We have no credit anymore but old credit card debt.

 

We could come up with the $400 for an emergency, and the $2000 within a month at this point in time.  We couldn't a couple of years ago when dh was freelancing/had his own company.  That is what put a huge strain on our finances and we are still paying off the impact of that decision.  Our house is upside-down (or break-even depending on who you ask) and needs a ton of work, we have one very old car that was bought new 15 years ago, one mid-line car bought used, and a newer lease (couldn't get any other financing.  A car is essential around here).  DD goes to a state school, the kids do some extracurriculars but not very expensive ones (oldest did competitive dance, we weren't getting into that pit again), everyone gets their hair cut at home, clothes are from Target or Walmart mostly. 

 

I just keep thinking about the ways we are lucky.  I can stay home with the kids, we can meet our needs and some wants (we did go to Disney in February), dd was able to go to college, we have reliable cars even if they're not fancy, kids can do a few activities, and probably most important - we're all healthy.  We can afford to eat healthy, go to the doctor when needed or for physicals to make sure we stay as healthy as possible.

 

 

[SKL]

I have no problem with people paying for private primary school. As the divide between the have and have not widens, so does the quality of the education available. We can argue that it shouldn't, but it flat out does. And absolutely education makes a difference in long term prospects.

 

I don't give a toot about keeping up with the jones' or hob-nobbing with "important" people.

 

But I do care that my kids are not screwed out of a quality education and networking opportunities that can impact their life for decades to come just bc I wasn't willing to take a financial risk on their behalf. Especially in an ever squeezing job market.

 

It doesn't have to be a crazy risk. We don't have any loans for their education and neither do they. Yet. But we have most certainly stressed and gave thought to not just the cost of the education, but what opportunities it will give them.

 

If we couldn't home school for some reason, I'd mortgage the house if I had to to get them in a decent private school. The public schools wouldn't even be a consideration to me.

 

I also consider connections when I decide on spending for my kids.  I am not sure whether that's foolish or not.  Possibly I'm just rationalizing why I'm giving my kids something I could never have.

 

I also have this feeling that I can't predict the future, and if everything went to hell tomorrow, at least my kids have been getting a good foundation.  Again, I'm not sure whether that's wisdom or rationalization.

 

But again, I'm not borrowing the money or asking others to pay it.

[Murphy101]

I disagree. Culture, family, and other social connections are needs. They are higher-level needs than food and shelter, perhaps, but they are still needs.

They are the very reasons we work, they are what we live for.

 

We might adjust how we go about them due to financial neccessity, but they are vital to feeling life has worth and purpose. They are the things that make us feel all our other hard work is worth it.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Murphy101

[HS Mom in NC]

I don't think anyone here is saying other people having non-essentials or doing non-essentials is categorically bad. It's not.  What's categorically bad is insisting on non-essentials you can't afford.  If you can afford it, then there's no problem at all. Enjoy!  When you can't afford it, it's bad for you and eventually society because you could have made different choices with different results but instead you made choices that lead directly to being dependent on society through tax funded services at some point in the future.  The more people who do that, the more taxdollar funded services will be needed.  The only choices are to tax people more or provide less services. 

Most Americans are OK with funding some sort of safety net for people who experienced tragedy through no fault of their own.  Many are not OK with bailing out people who made bad choices when they could've made good ones.  We all know we're statistically likely to live longer than most generations in history.  We know we will eventually be physically or mentally unable to support ourselves.  We have to take that into consideration when we make all our financial decisions as adults.  Most people aren't taking them into consideration EVER. (!??!?!?)

Baby Boomers, as a generation, have made terrible financial decisions.  Gen X, as a whole, is following in their footsteps.  Who knows which way Millennials will go.  That's going to have real consequences on our society.  Hold on to your hats, folks.  It's going to be a bumpy ride.

[marbel]

Re: cars.  This might be a spin-off, but... it seems that when people are talking about whether it's better to keep an old car and fix it, or buy something new (or new to them), the people who advocate for continuing to fix a car often* have a person in their life who can fix the car (rather than take it to a shop), and/or have family from whom they can borrow cars, get rides, etc.  Spouse, dad, brother-in-law... people who can fix a car for the price of parts and some time.  That is something not everyone can do.  When our Suburban died, we had neither the expertise, nor the tools, nor the time to make that repair.  It was the labor cost, not the cost of parts, that killed it for us. We sold it to a guy who wanted a project, didn't need the car to be driveable right away, and had the wherewithal to do the work himself.  So someone might think we were extravagant to get a newer car rather than keep fixing the 18-year-old vehicle, but it really didn't make economic sense to try to figure out how to get it fixed.

 

*often, not always - not making a universal statement about all people or anyone on this thread.

[Seasider]

Yeah $1000 strikes me as an outdated amount or that guy lives in a very low cost area or assumes a person has help of some kind. Good grief I've had relatively minor car repairs that cost that.

I think $1K is the bare get-one-started emergency fund amount. The actual emergency fund is supposed to be equal to something like 3 to 6 months of income.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I disagree. Culture, family, and other social connections are needs. They are higher-level needs than food and shelter, perhaps, but they are still needs. 

 

Yes. I come from a long line of very financially challenged people who always managed the holidays. We've eaten even more beans for weeks beforehand, to save for that turkey which, on sale, will likely be less $/lb than any meat going...it's not like we don't know Thanksgiving is coming up and that the food will all be on sale. If we're careful, we can usually plan for it and come out none the poorer.

 

A very simple Thanksgiving dinner, mostly from scratch, doesn't have to be very expensive at all. Ours never is. Our tradition doesn't require oysters, liquor, fine cheeses, many expensive appetizers, table groaning with too many rich desserts, etc. It's just a simple, solid and traditional meal. Turkey, gravy, mashed potatoes, green beans, cornbread, relish plate that is mostly carrots and celery, pickles, cranberry sauce, deviled eggs, pumpkin pie, some kind of cookie...

 

Our Christmas is also very lovely but very modest. The trick to all of these events is to make the non-food traditional elements just as memorable and wonderful as the edible parts, and to keep holidays simple from the start. My children have grown up and had more opportunities to observe other families' holiday traditions, which are usually very grand compared to ours. But they like our traditions, because they are meaningful and familiar. They like what I've told them about the importance of "making the holiday" for others, wherever you are and no matter your circumstance. Nobody's too poor for Christmas. You can remember the Christ Child and sing the carols, and share a meal...

 

the problem comes when we live above our means, not when we see holiday traditions as necessities.

[BarbecueMom]

I disagree. Culture, family, and other social connections are needs. They are higher-level needs than food and shelter, perhaps, but they are still needs.

Having dinner with family out of tradition is fine. Spending half your weekly grocery budget on a food item that half the guests don't like and 2/3 of it will end up in the trash is a choice. You can make that choice, but not recognizing those things as choices is the problem.

 

For a non-monetary example, we have spaghetti every Christmas Eve. It makes me ill, so I take a very, very small amount. Some years I don't eat it at all. In my mom's mind, eating something that makes you sick is just part and parcel of the holiday tradition, and she "can't help" but feel upset that I don't just put up with it one night a year. To her, it's not a choice. She's lactose intolerant and will eat ice cream on birthdays, even if it makes her ill, because not eating it isn't an option. To me it is, and I choose not to make myself sick for the sake of tradition.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Plus around Thanksgiving time turkeys go on sale.  Not unless you insist on some special type (organic, free range, or whatever the deal).  I stock up on turkeys at that time because they are never as affordable any other time in the year.

 

And I agree, these traditions are needs.  What else do people live for?  To work their fingers to the bone until they drop dead?  No thank you. 

 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

I disagree. Culture, family, and other social connections are needs. They are higher-level needs than food and shelter, perhaps, but they are still needs. 

 

Yes, those are needs, but her point was that those needs can be met without a turkey dinner she can't afford.  She could provide the turkey and ask everyone else to bring something.  That's how we've always done it because I host Thanksgiving for between 25-35 people every year. I shouldn't have to take on that expense every year by myself.  She could choose to have those closest to her show up for a modest Thanksgiving meal (maybe just a turkey breast, some stuffing, green beans and a pie) then invite others over another time for an inexpensive dessert and coffee. It really can be done differently, according to her budget, and still result in her social, familial and cultural needs being met.

 

This bizarre mindset people have that, "Thanksgiving/Christmas will henceforth and ever more from this year until the end of time will be exactly like all Thanksgivings/Christmases that preceded it or my life will be over, my relationships will have failed, my social world will end, my kids don't love me, etc. etc. etc." has to stop. 

Edited April 20, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[Murphy101]

Yeah... I'm always stumped about the whole "expensive" holiday meal. I don't know about everyone else, but our traditional meals are usually the good old fashioned very cheap stuff.

 

Turkey isn't exactly prime rib.

Cornbread dressing.

Deviled eggs.

 

The most expensive things we've ever had at a holiday meal were the salads. Fresh produce is always our most expensive grocery item, in winter it's even more so.

 

The only thing that makes our holiday meals expensive is the number of people I tend to serve, usually 30ish. But I start buying ingredients around September and if it gets close and there's something I need more of or couldn't get, I'll ask if guests can bring it or we do without it. Usually it just means less salad and relish tray items. Alcohol is never required, but usually someone will bring it. Or dh will make a batch of home brewed beer, which isn't free, but a keg for $40 of home effort is not crazy expensive either.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Having dinner with family out of tradition is fine. Spending half your weekly grocery budget on a food item that half the guests don't like and 2/3 of it will end up in the trash is a choice. You can make that choice, but not recognizing those things as choices is the problem.

 

For a non-monetary example, we have spaghetti every Christmas Eve. It makes me ill, so I take a very, very small amount. Some years I don't eat it at all. In my mom's mind, eating something that makes you sick is just part and parcel of the holiday tradition, and she "can't help" but feel upset that I don't just put up with it one night a year. To her, it's not a choice. She's lactose intolerant and will eat ice cream on birthdays, even if it makes her ill, because not eating it isn't an option. To me it is, and I choose not to make myself sick for the sake of tradition.

 

I've never spent half my budget on a turkey.  They aren't that expensive at that time. Not unless your budget for the week is something like $40.  Which if it is, I can understand the resentment.

[BarbecueMom]

I've never spent half my budget on a turkey. They aren't that expensive at that time. Not unless your budget for the week is something like $40. Which if it is, I can understand the resentment.

It pretty much is. Never married female, low and unstable income. She also refuses to let anyone else buy the blasted turkey.

 

See, choice.

 

ETA: The kicker is that my brother gets a free turkey from work right before Christmas every year. In fact, it's thawing in my fridge right now (they don't have freezer space for it, and I'm about to unplug and defrost mine). So now we're on Yearly Turkey Gathering #3 this weekend, with a FREE turkey.

Edited April 20, 2016 by BarbecueMom

[amy g.]

Everyone has limited resources and unlimited options on what to spend it on. In the end, it all comes down to personal values and priorities. 

 

If our income was in the top 1% of income, I wouldn't buy a car new. I'm the kind of person who would rather buy one with low miles that is a few years old and miss the rapid initial depreciation. I spend almost nothing on clothes. I told the kids that I'm going to start only buying new clothes from the grocery store and the feed store since I'm already there. 

 

We do spend a ton on groceries every week, but I cook 3 hot meals at home everyday. That is just expensive. Fortunately, we are all very healthy, so we do not have medical bills. I spend an insane amount of money on toys. I'd rather never have another vacation as long as I live than give up my toy budget. 

 

My point is that all of us underspend in some areas and overspend in others. 

 

Some of the things that have helped our economic situation are going to state schools, living in a low cost of living area, repairing our own cars, doing our own yard work, never having cable and paying cash for wants.

 

Some things we have done that have hurt our financial situation include homeschooling/not being a 2 income family and not stopping at 1 or 2 kids.

 

I'm interested in a spinoff thread about what things we can do to give our kids the best start possible so that they can try to avoid an endless cycle of never having enough or getting ahead and feeling secure.

[Murphy101]

But also, I'm only serving a casual holiday meal.

 

If I was for example, inviting business associates to a dinner of any kind, I'd be a lot more stressed about it. It shouldn't matter, but it does, so that's different. In that case, presentation absolutely matters.

 

We've been in that situation so often. When you need to go to a business dinner or an interview is out of town, but funds are tight, what do you do? Just not spend money or put it on a credit card and miss an opportunity? That's not a very fair expectation or a good financial one either.

[SparklyUnicorn]

But also, I'm only serving a casual holiday meal.

 

If I was for example, inviting business associates to a dinner of any kind, I'd be a lot more stressed about it. It shouldn't matter, but it does, so that's different. In that case, presentation absolutely matters.

 

We've been in that situation so often. When you need to go to a business dinner or an interview is out of town, but funds are tight, what do you do? Just not spend money or put it on a credit card and miss an opportunity? That's not a very fair expectation or a good financial one either.

 

Interview is one thing.  A business dinner should be covered by the business IMO. 

[Murphy101]

It pretty much is. Never married female, low and unstable income. She also refuses to let anyone else buy the blasted turkey.

 

See, choice.

 

ETA: The kicker is that my brother gets a free turkey from work right before Christmas every year. In fact, it's thawing in my fridge right now (they don't have freezer space for it, and I'm about to unplug and defrost mine). So now we're on Yearly Turkey Gathering #3 this weekend, with a FREE turkey.

I don't know how old she is...but many old people will feel this way bc they feel the holiday meal is the only time their family spends an extended visit with them. In so many ways the elderly become invisible and feel forgotten and no longer needed, doubly so if they are low income. So they will be extremely stubborn about changing any social activity in their life out of fear that they will become even more invisible. For example, in many cases the house baking the turkey is the one where everyone gathers, so an elderly person gets upset bc now no one is coming to her house.

 

I am not saying this is the case for your relative. I'm just saying I see it as a a common problem and sorta understand it.

[Bluegoat]

I don't follow you. If someone with a high income doesn't live within their means they still end up poor.  This is why professional football players with multi-million dollar contracts frequently declare bankruptcy within a few years.  More money isn't the answer because money is always limited.  Wants are always unlimited.  Obviously if you don't have enough money to meet basic needs you need to do something more lucrative.  But if you have enough to meet needs and are just living outside your means, you're making poor choices.

 

 

 

No, not necessarily.  Football players (or tv stars) are probably not a good example of the really rich.  They are poor or middle class people who have got some money.

 

People who have some money to start are very often able to leverage a lot of money through means entirely unavailable to the poor, they get jobs where they can spend a lot on company dime, they very often can show gross financial management in their work but make sure they personally have an income and benefits and entitlements that ensure they can live a very luxurious lifestyle.

 

These kinds of options are really just not open to most people - the rules are different.  Being a broke billionaire is a lot different than being a broke poor person.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, those are needs, but her point was that those needs can be met without a turkey dinner she can't afford.  She could provide the turkey and ask everyone else to bring something.  That's how we've always done it because I host Thanksgiving for between 25-35 people every year. I shouldn't have to take on that expense every year by myself.  She could choose to have those closest to her show up for a modest Thanksgiving meal (maybe just a turkey breast, some stuffing, green beans and a pie) then invite others over another time for an inexpensive dessert and coffee. It really can be done differently, according to her budget, and still result in her social, familial and cultural needs being met.

 

This bizarre mindset people have that, "Thanksgiving/Christmas will henceforth and ever more from this year until the end of time will be exactly like all Thanksgivings/Christmases that preceded it or my life will be over, my relationships will have failed, my social world will end, my kids don't love me, etc. etc. etc." has to stop. 

 

Yes and no.  Some people find this sort of thing to be so important and to be something that brings them so much joy that they stretch to do it.  I do understand that.  I may or may not choose to do it myself, but I understand it. 

 

If humans in general didn't feel this way, why would there be so much effort to help people in need during the holidays?  And I don't mean others help them with basics, but with in large part what is stuff that they believe makes life worth living and is special.  Stuff like gifts for kids and special holiday food. 

[Murphy101]

Interview is one thing. A business dinner should be covered by the business IMO.

What business? My dh is self employed and is usual hired as a contractor.

 

And it's a tax write off for either of them, but many businesses don't cover when say, a guy tells another guy about this guy he knows who'd be great for the job and happens to be in town and they decide, hey let's all meet real quick for beers and a bite in a couple hours. Yet, those type of networking situations have gotten my dh two of the last three contracts he has had.

[BarbecueMom]

I don't know how old she is...but many old people will feel this way bc they feel the holiday meal is the only time their family spends an extended visit with them. In so many ways the elderly become invisible and feel forgotten and no longer needed, doubly so if they are low income. So they will be extremely stubborn about changing any social activity in their life out of fear that they will become even more invisible. For example, in many cases the house baking the turkey is the one where everyone gathers, so an elderly person gets upset bc now no one is coming to her house.

 

I am not saying this is the case for your relative. I'm just saying I see it as a a common problem and sorta understand it.

Late 50's. My adult brother lives with her, and she sees me and DH and the kids at least twice a week (more than that now during baseball season). There's no other guests.

 

I do think it's the "my mom made big holiday dinners, I miss her and that tradition" and I do understand and sympathize with that. But... it's still a choice, even if it's harder to see when it's wrapped up in those emotions.

 

We do have very different views on traditions though. She's totally bewildered that I make something different for breakfast every Christmas morning. I'm not stealing the whole holiday like the Grinch, just sometimes we feel like Danish instead of donuts!

[SparklyUnicorn]

What business? My dh is self employed and is usual hired as a contractor.

 

And it's a tax write off for either of them, but many businesses don't cover when say, a guy tells another guy about this guy he knows who'd be great for the job and happens to be in town and they decide, hey let's all meet real quick for beers and a bite in a couple hours. Yet, those type of networking situations have gotten my dh two of the last three contracts he has had.

 

Ok so he IS the business.  Now I get it. 

[Bluegoat]

Yeah some years ago I had a friend who lived in a very large brand new house in a very expensive town.  She didn't work for pay and neither did/do I.  I know her husband made more than mine, but we aren't talking double.  I could not imagine how they afforded the house, the cars (three of them), the yearly vacations overseas on an income that was not double what my spouse makes.  So I can only conclude that either they saved a lot of money before having kids when they were both working, or they live on credit or something. 

 

I had a similar situation with some people I knew - theior income was similar toours, but their house was 5X as expensive (due to location) plus their daughter was in private school.

 

I didn't think they were likely living beyond their means seriously, and as it turned out, they weren't.  They had been lucky to come into a windfall early on and bought the house with it, so they were not paying anything but upkeep and taxes.  Which is why they could afford the private school.

 

So it can be something like that as well.

[Bluegoat]

I will say this...  even though we somewhat do the Dave Ramsey thing, there is no way $1,000 is enough of an emergency fund when you own a house, beater cars, have kids and don't have any credit cards.  An emergency credit card is fine.  A $5,000 fund should be sufficient, but $1,000 is definitely not.

 

Isn't that only meant to be the initial fund before paying off debt?  Ultimatly he wants people to have something like 3 months salary, doesn't he?

[Julie Smith]

I have a close family member, with no savings who is living the American dream.

 

At least twice a year they have a very expensive new thing, or a big vacation. But it is all rationalized as the something that was always wanted, or something needed for one reason or another. 

 

This year they might be going on a very expensive family vacation for Christmas. We are declining to join them since we are conveniently having other plans. I am not spending what will likely be 1000+ dollars a day for a whole week for a holiday. I will not get my kids a holiday to where ever they want for their 13th birthday. But I will, all going well get them through university/college or whatever debt free. :)

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

What business? My dh is self employed and is usual hired as a contractor.

 

And it's a tax write off for either of them, but many businesses don't cover when say, a guy tells another guy about this guy he knows who'd be great for the job and happens to be in town and they decide, hey let's all meet real quick for beers and a bite in a couple hours. Yet, those type of networking situations have gotten my dh two of the last three contracts he has had.

 

You know what irks me to no end?  When my husband goes on business trips (not often, but yes he has) the company makes him pay for everything up front out of his pocket.  So airline tickets, hotel, etc.  They reimburse.  This makes me mad.  Ultimately it turned out ok, but for many years we didn't use credit cards.  You can't really do this without that.  The process of getting your money back is also very convoluted so if that's not 100% right there are delays.  Delays can mean interest making it more expensive. 

 

Since it is very infrequent it's not a hill to die on, but if it were this could be a major problem. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes and no.  Some people find this sort of thing to be so important and to be something that brings them so much joy that they stretch to do it.  I do understand that.  I may or may not choose to do it myself, but I understand it. 

 

If humans in general didn't feel this way, why would there be so much effort to help people in need during the holidays?  And I don't mean others help them with basics, but with in large part what is stuff that they believe makes life worth living and is special.  Stuff like gifts for kids and special holiday food. 

 

Stretching is completely different that going into debt.  Plenty of people cut costs in other aspects of their lives to spend more in another aspect that means more to them as mentioned up thread-that's stretching. Going into debt isn't stretching, it's sinking.  There's no valid reason to go into debt over a holiday meal-that's going too far.  There are plenty of other ways to make satisfying holiday celebration without debt. There really are. Plenty of good suggestions have been made.

 

The rigid thinking that there's only one way to adequately celebrate a holiday is ridiculous.  If a person truly believes they cannot possibly have a satisfying holiday if they make that fit their budget, then they really do need professional counseling.  There are ways it can be done.  I'm not one to feed the crazy, so it's important to point out the faulty thinking in that person's situation.  They believe a lie. It's hurting them financially.  It's probably a pattern of thinking that got them in their financial situation to begin with and keeps them there.

 

Gifts for the kids can be in a person's budget and still be special.  They can be modest and still count. This all or nothing thinking that plagues our society is sinking us.  Parents and their kids aren't happy with cake, ice cream, streamers and modest gifts that fit the budget anymore for birthday parties.  They go into debt for more than that.  They're not satisfied with clothing that fits their budget, they go into debt.  They're not satisfied with vacations that fit the budget, they go into debt. They're not satisfied with a house that fits their budget, they go into debt. They freely choose food can't be done on their budget and they go into debt.

 

[Murphy101]

Ok so he IS the business. Now I get it.

Even when he wasn't, it could be an issue.

 

For example when he worked for a fortune 200 company, the Christmas party was $50 per person to attend. You didn't HAVE to, but it was greatly frowned upon if you didn't. And many people think working for a huge profitable company that requires lots of travel, often internationally, means everyone could afford that. About half his coworkers were on food stamps. (This was...oh 7 years ago?) but this was an major elbow rubbing event where you could get your face and name in front of people who otherwise might not know you as more than the vague signature on a work organization. They would also have company retreats and if you couldn't go, it was a big deal. People at work would question your dedication to the job and whether you were a team player.

 

These types of scenarios have been rather common for well over 10 years at most corporations dh has interacted with.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I had a similar situation with some people I knew - theior income was similar toours, but their house was 5X as expensive (due to location) plus their daughter was in private school.

 

I didn't think they were likely living beyond their means seriously, and as it turned out, they weren't.  They had been lucky to come into a windfall early on and bought the house with it, so they were not paying anything but upkeep and taxes.  Which is why they could afford the private school.

 

So it can be something like that as well.

 

Wasn't like that.  But the situation overall was rather weird.  She used a credit card to buy everything.  But beyond how much her husband made, she didn't know what anything cost.  She didn't do the bills, and didn't know the details.  At one point she complained to me that he told her he was taking the card away because they were having financial difficulties and he needed to pay down debt.  So he only gave her a bit of cash to buy stuff.  She was upset because she said she didn't know what stuff cost and didn't think she could afford food with the amount he gave her.  She didn't know what kind of money they had in the bank.  It was very weird.  He got weird.  She got weird.  It ended up being the reason we drifted apart because they fought constantly (even when I was there). 

[HS Mom in NC]

Isn't that only meant to be the initial fund before paying off debt?  Ultimatly he wants people to have something like 3 months salary, doesn't he?

 

I think she meant that people with more expenses need more of an initial emergency fund because they could easily get hit with an emergency that costs them more than $1000.  For example, if they have a car that isn't known for a great repaid record, they could easily have an emergency repair in the $1000+ range.  IF that happens, they'll still be behind if they only have $1000 on hand.

 

[SKL]

This reminds me of a certain person who bought a $10K electronic piano on credit.  He wasn't making that much money and has a tendency to job-hop.  He was asking for financial help from family shortly after making the purchase.  But, he deserved that piano.  It was his one nice thing.  Other than his big house, car, pets, nice clothes, ....  This was the same person who accused me of channeling Mother Teresa (only 2 saris) when he wasn't asking for money.  This person has always, always been broke.  I don't even want to know what his credit card bills are like.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Even when he wasn't, it could be an issue.

 

For example when he worked for a fortune 200 company, the Christmas party was $50 per person to attend. You didn't HAVE to, but it was greatly frowned upon if you didn't. And many people think working for a huge profitable company that requires lots of travel, often internationally, means everyone could afford that. About half his coworkers were on food stamps. (This was...oh 7 years ago?) but this was an major elbow rubbing event where you could get your face and name in front of people who otherwise might not know you as more than the vague signature on a work organization. They would also have company retreats and if you couldn't go, it was a big deal. People at work would question your dedication to the job and whether you were a team player.

 

These types of scenarios have been rather common for well over 10 years at most corporations dh has interacted with.

 

That never came up because the company pays for everything like that.  But it sort of came up in another way.  They insisted that he should have a smart phone.  We didn't even have a cell phone.  And we didn't want to spend money on any of that.  His boss kept bugging him about it.  Now, this was not because they ever would need to call him.  I guess they wanted him to know how the technology worked.  So he flat out told them we couldn't afford a phone that would cost that much.  So they gave him one and pay for it.  And that, IMO, is what they should do. 

[Murphy101]

You know what irks me to no end? When my husband goes on business trips (not often, but yes he has) the company makes him pay for everything up front out of his pocket. So airline tickets, hotel, etc. They reimburse. This makes me mad. Ultimately it turned out ok, but for many years we didn't use credit cards. You can't really do this without that. The process of getting your money back is also very convoluted so if that's not 100% right there are delays. Delays can mean interest making it more expensive.

 

Since it is very infrequent it's not a hill to die on, but if it were this could be a major problem.

Oh yes. This was a HUGE problem wi his last employer before he went contract. They'd demand he use the company travel agency (which put zero effort in booking decent deals for him in our opinion) but pay it entirely out of his own pocket up front wi only a few days a week notice of when and where. But they'd often take 6 iffin months to reimburse him and be total turds about what they would reimburse. Like $30 per day food allowance. Do you have any idea how hard it is to eat our 3x a day on that in Toranto for example? I would get so angry and he would get so frustrated. Because what ya gonna do? Quit and have no income at all?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh yes. This was a HUGE problem wi his last employer before he went contract. They'd demand he use the company travel agency (which put zero effort in booking decent deals for him in our opinion) but pay it entirely out of his own pocket up front wi only a few days a week notice of when and where. But they'd often take 6 iffin months to reimburse him and be total turds about what they would reimburse. Like $30 per day food allowance. Do you have any idea how hard it is to eat our 3x a day on that in Toranto for example? I would get so angry and he would get so frustrated. Because what ya gonna do? Quit and have no income at all?

 

Oh exactly!  They do not get good deals AT ALL through the company they insist he use for the travel stuff.  The only thing that is good about using them is that tickets can be cancelled and changed even at the last minute.  That's probably what jacks up the price.  I guess I can see why that might be desirable for a company. 

[Murphy101]

That never came up because the company pays for everything like that. But it sort of came up in another way. They insisted that he should have a smart phone. We didn't even have a cell phone. And we didn't want to spend money on any of that. His boss kept bugging him about it. Now, this was not because they ever would need to call him. I guess they wanted him to know how the technology worked. So he flat out told them we couldn't afford a phone that would cost that much. So they gave him one and pay for it. And that, IMO, is what they should do.

Yep. That too. They wanted access to him 24/7, but they sure as hell didn't want to pay for it. Not in wages and for sure not in covered expenses.

 

They actually called him while I was in active labor with two of our kids and they knew it. He had to step out to take the call bc otherwise... There's always the threat of that axe coming down.

 

I never wanted them to pay for his cell phone. But I sure as hell demanded he turn the damn thing off between certain hours and at certain events. I really resented it. He was working well over 50 hours, gone for weeks at a time, and then when he was home - he still wasn't really. And of course, that didn't put him in a very happy place either.

[BarbecueMom]

You know what irks me to no end? When my husband goes on business trips (not often, but yes he has) the company makes him pay for everything up front out of his pocket. So airline tickets, hotel, etc. They reimburse. This makes me mad. Ultimately it turned out ok, but for many years we didn't use credit cards. You can't really do this without that. The process of getting your money back is also very convoluted so if that's not 100% right there are delays. Delays can mean interest making it more expensive.

 

Since it is very infrequent it's not a hill to die on, but if it were this could be a major problem.

That reminds me that we need a card with better travel rewards before DH's next trip. He has to pay for food and (their chosen) hotel up front, but the rewards from the $300/night linen closet in Manhattan are something I want to take advantage of.

 

He gets his reimbursements... as fast as he remembers to file his paperwork (I'm hearing that voice from Monsters Inc. in my head), but it's a large amount to float until then. Having to pay upfront for plane tickets would freak me out a bit, even though we'd be okay. Many would not.