Are some dogs just too dangerous?

[Spy Car]

These are the same folks who advocate tying a dead chicken to the dog to stop it from killing them and shooting the dog if that doesynt work.

 

It is the same mindset that is behind the horribly glossy Sit Means Sit franchises that basically torture dogs into basic obedience and compliance.

 

Caesar Milan doesn't help either.

 

Sigh.

 

I have seen a "Sit Means Sit" truck and trainer doing classes in a local park. I've been wondering if they were as bad as the name made them sound?

 

Time for me to get my pooch out for a run.

 

Bill

[Tanaqui]

Every time he works his magic on a dog dh and I are always like "AHHHHH How does he do it!? He's a wizard!" :lol:

 

It's called "editing".

 

And even if there are immediate responses to this sort of training (and there usually are), you set yourself up for long-term negative effects... the sort of thing that the show doesn't see, because the cameras are gone. All the science shows that the man doesn't know what he's doing, or worse, he knows but doesn't care.

 

[Tanaqui]

The owners took in a feral cat and tried to domesticate him.  That cat is pure evil.

 

Well, ferals generally do have trouble becoming accustomed to living with humans. I wouldn't say the cat is evil, I would say the cat is highly stressed at having to do something that it doesn't natively want to do. I know some people who have engaged in feral rescue (generally of semi-ferals, not full ferals) and those cats either isolate themselves when guests come over or their humans coax them into another room. A tamed feral cat should not be forced to be in close proximity with guests. Really, if these people are doing their job right as pet owners, you shouldn't even know they have a feral in their home.

[jeninok]

They are using similar methods to force fetch. With E collars, to teach basic obedience.

 

In layman's terms they shock the dog while giving a command and only stop when it complies. They call this attention based training.

 

Dogs are hardwired to pay attention to us and look to us for behavior cues. They also really really like food and respond incredibly well to operant conditioning and rewards based learning.

 

There is just no reason to torture a dog to teach basic obedience. Ever.

 

Aversive methods and corrections should be used infrequently, with great care, and only after a dogs knows what you want, and even then devices such as shock collars should be used as a last resort.

Edited February 8, 2016 by jeninok

[Pawz4me]

he's something, but it's a word I can't use in this forum. 

 

He sometimes works because he has very good timing. That's the only good thing I can say. 

 

He uses outdated methods, and he calls dogs dominant who are displaying textbook submissive signals. Dogs who are obviously fear biters he calls dominant and alpha. He's an idiot. He's a groomer who looks good on television and has zero knowledge of learning theory, true dog behavior, etc. I have so much more I could say. 

 

But mainly, know that when it says "don't do this at home" on the tv they MEAN it. Don't. If you google you can find veterinarians, vet tech society, veterinary behavior societies, and humane societies with statements talking about how awful his methods are. He traumatizes dogs in the name of leadership. 

 

Well said.

 

I try not to watch his show because it makes me so sad.  He doesn't train/rehab dogs.  He bullies and abuses them and causes them to totally shut down.  There's a universe of difference in a well trained dog (who was trained by mostly positive methods) and a dog who has shut down.

[FaithManor]

In an earlier lifetime I spent a lot of time in equestrian circles and helped condition some of the finest horses in Los Angeles. I helped prepare many young horses to be ridden. It was all very gentle. A few times (with larger warmbloods) I was their first rider. Nice and easy. Never "broke" a horse. These horses often went on to elite competitions. Very highly trained. 

 

But yeah, there are still plenty of people who believe in "breaking" horses and using the same sort of stupid and cruel means with equines that they do with canines.

 

They same sorts of training that is stupid with dogs is stupid with horses. Better to understand animal behavior and work with it than to try to dominate the animal.

 

You're so right!

 

Bill

My favorite (NOT) was the woman who told me she was going to train her three year old mare "old cowboy style" because she wanted to ride in a western saddle!

 

It is of course not legal to reach out and smack someone, but all I could think was "poor horse". I know what "old cowboy style" means around here and to coin an old phrase, "It ain't pretty." I saw her several weeks later. The mare had a horrifically sore mouth from all the seesawing and yanking on the bit (which by the way was the absolute wrong size for that horse so the future held nothing but dental trouble, pain, and suffering). Still not legal to smack her. Boy did I want to do it!!!

 

I just don't have respect for it. Learn about the animal you want BEFORE you commit to the animal, or please just get a tank full of sea monkeys. Better yet, a chia pet!

[Tanaqui]

They same sorts of training that is stupid with dogs is stupid with horses. Better to understand animal behavior and work with it than to try to dominate the animal.

 

The worst part is, these folks claim they DO understand dog behavior. Let me say this explicitly for people who don't want to click links: They don't.

 

Millan's whole schtick is that dogs spend their lives in a "pack" mentality, competing to be the "alpha", and the only way to control your dog is to be "dominant" so they will "submit", because that's what wolves do.

 

Except that's NOT what wolves do. We got this ridiculous idea from studies of captive wolves from several different packs that were forced to live together in captivity - a very unusual and high stress situation. In the wild, a wolf pack comprises a mated couple and their offspring from the past few years. As their young find mates of their own, they leave and form their own packs. You don't normally see extensive displays of dominance among wolves because you don't normally see multiple adults in a pack.

 

And if wolves don't act like this, then there's really no reason to assume dogs would, even if you believe dogs are just wolves that are friendly. Dogs have been selectively bred over thousands of years to get along with humans and work with humans - not to have weird dominance issues. It's all a load of bunk.

 

And since the underpinnings are bunk, how can the conclusions be correct? They're not.

[itsheresomewhere]

Well, ferals generally do have trouble becoming accustomed to living with humans. I wouldn't say the cat is evil, I would say the cat is highly stressed at having to do something that it doesn't natively want to do. I know some people who have engaged in feral rescue (generally of semi-ferals, not full ferals) and those cats either isolate themselves when guests come over or their humans coax them into another room. A tamed feral cat should not be forced to be in close proximity with guests. Really, if these people are doing their job right as pet owners, you shouldn't even know they have a feral in their home.

You would have to see it to understand how evil it is. I have worked with ferals before and I honestly have never seen one behave like this. So far it has only seriously hurt the owners.

[Tanaqui]

You would have to see it to understand how evil it is. I have worked with ferals before and I honestly have never seen one behave like this. So far it has only seriously hurt the owners.

 

It's a cat. Animals can't be good or bad, because they lack the intelligence for any real moral sense. It's probably unhappy or mentally ill and ought to either be let out again or euthanized if that will simply lead to a slow death.

[jeninok]

It's a cat. Animals can't be good or bad, because they lack the intelligence for any real moral sense. It's probably unhappy or mentally ill and ought to either be let out again or euthanized if that will simply lead to a slow death.

My mom went through this with a cat, he was an orphan they adopted as wee kitten.

 

2 years of training and prozac made by a compounding pharmacy and rubbed on his ear made no difference.

They finally had to make the very hard decision to have him euthanized. But it was the only decision, he was huge, and dangerous, and would pee on you then attack, truly unprovoked.

[itsheresomewhere]

It's a cat. Animals can't be good or bad, because they lack the intelligence for any real moral sense. It's probably unhappy or mentally ill and ought to either be let out again or euthanized if that will simply lead to a slow death.

 

I think we will have to agree to disagree.  The cat only needs one more serious injury reported and it will ordered to be euthanized. 

[itsheresomewhere]

My mom went through this with a cat, he was an orphan they adopted as wee kitten.

 

2 years of training and prozac made by a compounding pharmacy and rubbed on his ear made no difference.

They finally had to make the very hard decision to have him euthanized. But it was the only decision, he was huge, and dangerous, and would pee on you then attack, truly unprovoked.

This is it.  They got him as an kitten.  I know they have tried a few medicines but no difference.  It turns it head and suddenly attacks.  

[Spy Car]

They are using similar methods to force fetch. With E collars, to teach basic obedience.

 

In layman's terms they shock the dog while giving a command and only stop when it complies. They call this attention based training.

 

Dogs are hardwired to pay attention to us and look to us for behavior cues. They also really really like food and respond incredibly well to operant conditioning and rewards based learning.

 

There is just no reason to torture a dog to teach basic obedience. Ever.

 

Aversive methods and corrections should be used infrequently, with great care, and only after a dogs knows what you want, and even then devices such as shock collars should be used as a last resort.

 

Good god. They sound like real knuckleheads.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

My favorite (NOT) was the woman who told me she was going to train her three year old mare "old cowboy style" because she wanted to ride in a western saddle!

 

It is of course not legal to reach out and smack someone, but all I could think was "poor horse". I know what "old cowboy style" means around here and to coin an old phrase, "It ain't pretty." I saw her several weeks later. The mare had a horrifically sore mouth from all the seesawing and yanking on the bit (which by the way was the absolute wrong size for that horse so the future held nothing but dental trouble, pain, and suffering). Still not legal to smack her. Boy did I want to do it!!!

 

I just don't have respect for it. Learn about the animal you want BEFORE you commit to the animal, or please just get a tank full of sea monkeys. Better yet, a chia pet!

 

Bad for my blood pressure to read such posts.

 

Idiot.

 

Bill

[jeninok]

Good god. They sound like real knuckleheads.

 

Bill

I ran into one of their trainers recently at Tractor Supply. He was adamant that I should come take a class with my 12 year old Coonhound. He kept saying how much it would increase our bond and make him even better.

 

Shudder, can you even imagine a poor dumb senior hound who has never been corrected more harshly than a verbal NO! Being put in that situation?

 

I got teary eyed just now thinking about it and typing.

[Ausmumof3]

Wishful thinking that taking a quick fix, and one with such damaging heallth consequences, will instantly solve behavior and training problems. Among house dogs raised in loving homes eutering actually tends to increase many fears and anxieties in male dogs (making rhem more prone to attacks), lessens their sociability, and opens the dog to a myriad of health problems.

 

Neutering is not the solution biting in well raised dogs.

 

Bill

I wasn't talking about neutering to reduce aggression. I was talking about the process of eliminating banned breeds. Neutering is undertaken to prevent reproduction.

[itsheresomewhere]

I ran into one of their trainers recently at Tractor Supply. He was adamant that I should come take a class with my 12 year old Coonhound. He kept saying how much it would increase our bond and make him even better.

 

Shudder, can you even imagine a poor dumb senior hound who has never been corrected more harshly than a verbal NO! Being put in that situation?

 

I got teary eyed just now thinking about it and typing.

 

 

How did you keep from laughing and/or lecturing on his methods?  I know I would have asked him WTH is wrong with you?

[ktgrok]

This is it.  They got him as an kitten.  I know they have tried a few medicines but no difference.  It turns it head and suddenly attacks.  

 

I've met more than one veterinary behaviorist (DVM and PhD combined) who are of the opinion that orphaned kittens that must be bottle fed should just be euthanized humanely as most of them end up with behavior problems. I know the only one we had who was bottle fed did end up needing to be euthanized. He was miserable...just a basket case of nerves after he reached adulthood. 

[FaithManor]

Bad for my blood pressure to read such posts.

 

Idiot.

 

Bill

Pet Chester. It helps.

 

I pet Lewis A LOT to help keep my blood pressure down while I deal with my dad.

 

Grr...

 

But ya, I meet animal owners too often that I'd like to poke with a cattle prod and say, "Do you like it?"

 

Good thing I don't own a cattle prod! :D

[Spy Car]

Pet Chester. It helps.

 

I pet Lewis A LOT to help keep my blood pressure down while I deal with my dad.

 

Grr...

 

But ya, I meet animal owners too often that I'd like to poke with a cattle prod and say, "Do you like it?"

 

Good thing I don't own a cattle prod! :D

 

I was thinking bull-whip. I'd be willing to make the investment :D

 

Bill

[jeninok]

How did you keep from laughing and/or lecturing on his methods? I know I would have asked him WTH is wrong with you?

I quite loudly announced that torturing dogs should be illegal and I was absolutely not willing to take a card.

 

I've seen him since then at the same store, he hasn't approached me again. :)

[jeninok]

Sigh, double post again.

Edited February 8, 2016 by jeninok

[maize]

I like dogs.

 

I have six children and no time to train a dog.

 

Therefor I have cats :D

[Ausmumof3]

I'd be totally okay with this. I'd like to see it based on size rather than breed though. I wouldn't want the drug dealers and gang members to just pick another breed, as happened in the past (shepherd then doberman than rottweiler now pit bull). I don't want them picking some more rare breed that isn't listed in the legislation and doing the same thing to it, you know?

Yeah good point. Although that could result in a few lab owners scratching their heads 😄 But more education is always better.

[ktgrok]

Yeah good point. Although that could result in a few lab owners scratching their heads 😄 But more education is always better.

 

Meh, the lab owners can use it as a chance to learn/practice techniques to keep the lab from jumping up on people :) I've been clobbered by more labs than I can count. And the most vicious dog I've met, the one that fractured the baby's skull and nearly killed two small dogs happened to be a lab. 

[DesertBlossom]

I can always count on learning from you guys. My only experience with dog training was that one episode of Cesar Millan. Shows what I know. (Aka: nothing) I am grateful our sweet lab came to us trained, good-natured and calm. I never ever ever want a puppy.

[beaners]

I don't want to risk any copyright issues by posting images here, but there are so many great examples if you do a google image search for dog bite warning signs. Showing eye whites, licking lips, flaring whiskers, etc. My heart nearly stops when people repost videos of kids playing with dogs who are displaying clear signs of wanting to be left alone. These are the kinds of scenarios where people say they happened out of the blue but there were signs.

[Spy Car]

I'd be laughing that this thread turned into a dog love-in, except for the way people are in denial about large, well muscled dogs bred to fight/attack being any sort of public danger.

 

It's myopic. If dogs have rights ( and I think they do have some ) they need to be balanced with the rights of humans. 

 

Are we reading the same thread???

 

Bil

[Tanaqui]

I've met more than one veterinary behaviorist (DVM and PhD combined) who are of the opinion that orphaned kittens that must be bottle fed should just be euthanized humanely as most of them end up with behavior problems. I know the only one we had who was bottle fed did end up needing to be euthanized. He was miserable...just a basket case of nerves after he reached adulthood.

 

If you do happen to find random orphan kittens (it does happen), I generally advise that if the kitten is healthy, the best bet is to find a mother cat to adopt it. Cats frequently will adopt orphans, and the kitten is better off with more kittens around and a mama. This goes quadruple if you don't know anything about cats. I once ran across somebody trying to bottle feed a cold kitten on its back.

[jeninok]

I'd be laughing that this thread turned into a dog love-in, except for the way people are in denial about large, well muscled dogs bred to fight/attack being any sort of public danger.

 

It's myopic. If dogs have rights ( and I think they do have some ) they need to be balanced with the rights of humans. 

 

 

One of the ways to solve the problem of large well muscled acting like jerks is education, something that has been happening in this discussion.   

 

 

Using methods like Caesar Milan or other dominance based aversive training is a recipe for disaster for most potentially reactive dogs and only further compounds the underlying issues. Treating 90 pound Brutus like a furbaby who could do no wrong is a major problem too.

 

Being afraid of Pitbulls ( which is a nebulous term at best) but not Akitas, Chows, Labradors, or any of the other common biters doesn't make sense. 

 

Using poor statistics which have been shown to be not only highly biased, flawed in their methodology, and also nonsensical in their breed classification doesn't make sense. 

 

No one is advocating for aggressive dogs ( or friendly ones for that matter) to roam freely.  

[jeninok]

Section two of this research and policy paper is worth a look. 
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/blog/new-edition-of-dog-bites-problems-and-solutions/

 

[Barb_]

I've met more than one veterinary behaviorist (DVM and PhD combined) who are of the opinion that orphaned kittens that must be bottle fed should just be euthanized humanely as most of them end up with behavior problems. I know the only one we had who was bottle fed did end up needing to be euthanized. He was miserable...just a basket case of nerves after he reached adulthood.

We adopted a stray kitten that was cut off from it's mama too early and she was horrible. Sadly she was also adorable and was sort of given to one of my kids who was I think eight at the time. She hid on the stairs or around corners and unexpectedly swiped at our feet and legs. We thought we could rehabilitate her. The last straw was Zelda attacked my son when he was a crawling infant, scratching up his face. Luckily we lived close to a lot of semi-rural homestead type places and a homeschooling family I knew through yahoo groups needed a barn cat. She turned out to be an excellent mouser.

 

Strangely though, the best cat I've ever had was a three week old kitten who was found stumbling along the highway. He fit in my hand and his eyes were only partially open. I was able to get him to eat wet food thinned out with KMR and he was so tiny I made sure he was carried everywhere for weeks so he didn't get stepped on. Maybe it was all the handling that did it, but he's the sweetest, cuddliest, fluffy marshmallow of a cat I've ever had. Including fosters we've had close to 20 cats over the years. He's food neurotic though, so he isn't 100% sane but he isn't crazy town like Zelda.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Barb_

[Guest]

There are some interesting statistics at the website of the American Temperament Test Society. They were founded in 1977 as a "national not-for-profit organization...for the promotion of uniform temperament evaluation of purebred and spayed/neutered mixed-breed dogs." The ATTS Temperament Test isn't specifically for aggression, but "measures different aspects of temperament such as stability, shyness, aggressiveness, and friendliness as well as the dog’s instinct for protectiveness towards its handler and/or self-preservation in the face of a threat. The test simulates a casual walk through a park or neighborhood where everyday life situations are encountered. During this walk, the dog experiences visual, auditory and tactile stimuli. Neutral, friendly and threatening situations are encountered, calling into play the dog’s ability to distinguish between non-threatening situations and those calling for watchful and protective reactions."

 

The society records the number of passed and failed tests for each breed. You can find the statistics here. The American Pit Bull Terrier has a 86.8% pass rate, very similar to the pass rates for Bernese Mountain Dogs, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, Newfoundlands, Saint Bernards, Huskies, and Standard Poodles. They've tested 32,428 dogs as of 2013. There isn't as much data for some of the rarer breeds.

Those temperament tests are just great, especially the ones for assessing potential puppies. Not all dog personality types are suited for every owner :)

[fraidycat]

I've met more than one veterinary behaviorist (DVM and PhD combined) who are of the opinion that orphaned kittens that must be bottle fed should just be euthanized humanely as most of them end up with behavior problems. I know the only one we had who was bottle fed did end up needing to be euthanized. He was miserable...just a basket case of nerves after he reached adulthood.

The two my sister (and parents, and me as helpers) hand raised literally from within an hour or so of birth (placentas were still attached when found) are big, fat, cuddly fur balls who generally love people - especially ones with cat treats. :) The male has a few people he doesn't care for, but we're all entitled to that, no? He just avoids those people if necessary. The female daily sits on my dad's shoulder on the back of his chair and purrs in his ear while he tries to watch t.v. and is friendly to everyone. They're four years old now - no behavior problems.

 

My friend has three that she bottle fed from a couple weeks old. They are all fine, too. They are around 3 or 4 years old, too. It probably just depends on the cat. Some are born neurotic.

 

Granted I'm not a behaviorist, a DVM, nor do I have a PHD, but there are 5 living cats that I personally know right now who are perfectly well adjusted, friendly, normal cats. It's only 5 cats, but it's 100% of the human raised/bottle fed cats that I know of with zero behavioral issues. They each have their individual person ahem, catanalities, but they all fall within the range of normal and acceptable cat behavior.

[Tanaqui]

The two my sister (and parents, and me as helpers) hand raised literally from within an hour or so of birth (placentas were still attached when found) are big, fat, cuddly fur balls who generally love people - especially ones with cat treats. :) The male has a few people he doesn't care for, but we're all entitled to that, no? He just avoids those people if necessary. The female daily sits on my dad's shoulder on the back of his chair and purrs in his ear while he tries to watch t.v. and is friendly to everyone. They're four years old now - no behavior problems.

 

I sometimes find that kittens who are separated from Mom too early attach way too strongly to humans for my comfort. Your kitties sound as though they may be like the ones I'm thinking of, though whether this constitutes a behavioral disorder probably depends on whether or not you object to a cat who is superglued to your shoulder.

 

I'll also note that your kitties, so it sounds, had littermates with them. That makes a difference as well.

[fraidycat]

I sometimes find that kittens who are separated from Mom too early attach way too strongly to humans for my comfort. Your kitties sound as though they may be like the ones I'm thinking of, though whether this constitutes a behavioral disorder probably depends on whether or not you object to a cat who is superglued to your shoulder.

 

I'll also note that your kitties, so it sounds, had littermates with them. That makes a difference as well.

It was the two of them raised together, yes.

 

I don't know what you mean by attach too strongly to humans? In the household of 5 cats, they all... Act like cats. I was just illustrating these two as friendly and non-neurotic because they were the subject of the conversation re:orphaned cats. Are the other, mother-raised cats too strongly attached because one sleeps on my mom's shoulder every night, or one must lay on or against any persons feet on the footstool?

 

The cat is not superglued to his shoulder - where did I say that? They have a routine. In the evening, they have snuggle and purr time in front of the t.v. for an hour or so. That same cat refuses to sleep in bedroom with my parents. One other one (cat mother raised, pure bred) does- on top of my mom and one sleeps on a hassock at the foot of their bed. The dad shoulder sitter sleeps in the living room. Definitely not superglued, or too attached. The other two cats sleep in the basement with my sister. One is the male of the orphan pair and one is a stray that I rescued at about 6 months old that I assume was mother-raised until weaning age, but I can't know for sure.

Edited February 9, 2016 by fraidycat

[AuNaturel]

It's about the owner not the dog most of the time. I walk my chihuahua around my neighborhood every day. I have had to pick up my chi while another dog charged at me to get to him over a dozen times in the three years I've lived here. Some were pits but the scariest was the German Shepards. None of them listened to their owner as they screamed their name. Nearly every one of them jumped on me, trying to get to my dog (in my arms) as I turned my back to block them (I'm 5'4" so if I don't turn, they can reach my dog). Every owner had to manually come and drag the dog away from me. Every owner apologized repetitively afterward.

 

In this same neighborhood I've had a dog jump a fence and another race out of a car to approach me. I also had a pit bull charge me from an open gate (with no owner in sight). The pit bull chased me until I was about 20 yards from his home and then stopped, to my relief.

 

Before I moved here, I never experienced such things. I used to live in completely urban areas. This is the first time I've lived in a neighborhood that includes some farm land although it's far from "country".

 

Many of the dog owners here just let their dog walk around their property without a fence or leash. Very few have their dogs trained well either.

 

I really don't consider the breed when a dog charges at me. If it's big enough to put it's paws on my stomach or chest when it stands on its hind legs, I consider it a potential threat and prepare myself for what may follow. Thankfully, regardless of how many scary incidences, no dog has actually bitten me or my chi. I hope it stays that way.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Edited February 9, 2016 by AuNaturel

[LisaKinVA]

Just to throw this out there...but training doesn't end with obedience school.  Every morning, I go through training with my dog....there's the sit and wait as I open the door.  The sit and wait as I feed her (these happen all the time).  The "crate" command (I say "crate" and she immediately turns and goes to her crate...no matter where we are in the house.   She's more successful with certain commands than others -- so we still have work to do.  There are times I'll issue a crate command when she's playing, or when I'd normally let her race out the door to see who is home -- because I need her to obey in lots of different situations.  Her "downs" are kind of funny...it looks like she just "jumps" and falls into a down -- very fast, and ready to leap up at an instant.  

 

There are a lot of people who will take their dog to obedience school and think they are "trained."  But training doesn't stop. I'm hoping to get some agility equipment in my back yard to have some other things to do with my dog at home as well.  She just loves doing things with me.  

 

The one thing I wish we had done when she was younger in addition to soft mouth training was getting a muzzle on.  Although she's never bitten me -- a dog in pain is dangerous.  I had never heard about muzzle training before -- so that's going on our list.

 

This year, my German Shepherd will have earned her 3rd certificate (basic and advanced obedience and basic protection...).  Even with all of that training, there are certain conditions I will not place others in -- the #1 is having any strangers enter our home.  She is extremely protective of us, and very wary of strangers.  We would have to socialize her properly with a caretaker (if it's in our home) before having them stay with her (she doesn't have any of these issues OUTSIDE of our home at a kennel, or a friend's house).  Another situation is to have her outside with a group of kids (other than just mine).  This may change after she finishes protection training, but right now if the kids play a rousing game of tag -- she's likely to assume that the kids chasing my kids are a threat.  Again, she's never hurt anyone -- but after she ran and tackled a kid (he was 13, not a little kid), I wasn't taking any chances.  Those instincts are very, very strong.  Yes, she has a soft mouth -- but let's face it, anyone (outside my family) would have every right to be terrified if she came at them and grabbed their hand, arm, buttocks, or leg -- even with a soft mouth.  

 

We are thinking about getting a second dog this fall...another Shepherd.  These will be our LAST big dogs, and neither my dh or I will own a small or toy breed dog (we've only ever been bitten by small dogs, and I was also bitten by a Springer Spaniel...broke off her chain, ran across her yard and attacked me on the other side of the street -- she went a bit nuts after she'd had puppies).  My dh would love to have another big dog, but the fact is, by the time these two are gone, we'll be close to 60.  I won't have the time, energy, or possibly the strength to handle a big dog.  As a dog owner, I have to know my own limits as well.  I will probably move back to cockers (if we have a dog at all).  I still miss my cocker.  

 

[ktgrok]

The two my sister (and parents, and me as helpers) hand raised literally from within an hour or so of birth (placentas were still attached when found) are big, fat, cuddly fur balls who generally love people - especially ones with cat treats. :) The male has a few people he doesn't care for, but we're all entitled to that, no? He just avoids those people if necessary. The female daily sits on my dad's shoulder on the back of his chair and purrs in his ear while he tries to watch t.v. and is friendly to everyone. They're four years old now - no behavior problems.

 

My friend has three that she bottle fed from a couple weeks old. They are all fine, too. They are around 3 or 4 years old, too. It probably just depends on the cat. Some are born neurotic.

 

Granted I'm not a behaviorist, a DVM, nor do I have a PHD, but there are 5 living cats that I personally know right now who are perfectly well adjusted, friendly, normal cats. It's only 5 cats, but it's 100% of the human raised/bottle fed cats that I know of with zero behavioral issues. They each have their individual person ahem, catanalities, but they all fall within the range of normal and acceptable cat behavior.

 

You know, it may have made a huge difference that it wasn't a single kitten, but siblings. The biggest issues stem not just from being separated from mom but from being separated from siblings. It seems they need the frustration of being jostled and annoyed by the siblings to develop properly. In fact, there are a lot of concerns about behavior problems in litters with just one puppy in the dog world. 

[Dmmetler]

I sometimes find that kittens who are separated from Mom too early attach way too strongly to humans for my comfort. Your kitties sound as though they may be like the ones I'm thinking of, though whether this constitutes a behavioral disorder probably depends on whether or not you object to a cat who is superglued to your shoulder.

 

I'll also note that your kitties, so it sounds, had littermates with them. That makes a difference as well.

 

I had two hand raised kittens who were definitely attached to their humans, but were quite sweet. They also were very attached to each other and had "kitten" behaviors towards each other even as adults.  Both had health issues (one had digestive issues and the other had frequent kidney issues) and both died fairly young (7-8 years old). None of our cats who were raised by mom all the way through are as affectionate or loving.

 

 

However, in that case, it was a whole litter that had been placed with a foster caregiver, and I think they'd been a little older when rescued (they'd been dumped, with their eyes newly opened), and the caregiver explicitly looked for homes that would take them in pairs (and placed the kittens who seemed most attached to each other together). 

[Bluegoat]

I's totally forgotten about it until reading this today, but when I was about 7 I had a dog come through a fence when I was walking a poodle.  Ithink it was a Samoyd, one of those big white fluffy dogs.  It bit the poodle on teh back like it wanted to pick it up and carry it away.

 

The same dog ripped apart a hamster cage and ate the hamsters.  I don't remember it ever bothering us kids, but it sure didn't like small animals - or they had big FOOD signs on them.

[jeninok]

I's totally forgotten about it until reading this today, but when I was about 7 I had a dog come through a fence when I was walking a poodle. Ithink it was a Samoyd, one of those big white fluffy dogs. It bit the poodle on teh back like it wanted to pick it up and carry it away.

 

The same dog ripped apart a hamster cage and ate the hamsters. I don't remember it ever bothering us kids, but it sure didn't like small animals - or they had big FOOD signs on them.

They are most definitely animals with prey drive and instinct.

Northern breeds in particular have a high prey drive relatively intact.

Even Border Collies, ACD and other herding breeds have high prey drive, it has just been shaped and molded over many many generations to produce different results.

 

It is also why LGD dogs like Pyrenees must often be carefully kept separate from the herding breeds.

[gardenmom5]

I's totally forgotten about it until reading this today, but when I was about 7 I had a dog come through a fence when I was walking a poodle.  Ithink it was a Samoyd, one of those big white fluffy dogs.  It bit the poodle on teh back like it wanted to pick it up and carry it away.

 

The same dog ripped apart a hamster cage and ate the hamsters.  I don't remember it ever bothering us kids, but it sure didn't like small animals - or they had big FOOD signs on them.

 

Our GSD was in a home with a cat.  the cat brought home an "offering" of a mole (or such) and dropped it at the feet of the owner.  the GSD promptly ate it. the cat was like "what . . . . ."

[ktgrok]

 

I just don't like the sense, in this thread, that injuries and even fatalities are unfortunate, but 'not our business'. Well, whose blooming business is it ? The 'bad' owners who don't give a crap ? Good owners ? Local council ? Government ?

 

I mean, for goodness sake. It's a public health issue. Somebody needs to deal with it.

 

I haven't seen that. I've seen people, myself included, calling for stricter licensing and registration of dogs, including requiring training and yearly vet visits, etc to keep an eye on dogs. Tougher actions against dogs that bite, etc. 

 

I think breed bans don't work because then the people breeding vicious dogs end up switching to another breed. It has happened before. Used to be Shepherds, then Dobies, then Rotties. Now pit bulls. Better to require all dogs of a certain size have to be evaluated for temperament, or have people have to jump through certain hoops to own them, than ban a particular breed. That's not saying it isn't our business it is advocating for a different solution. 

[FaithManor]

I agree Ktgrok, if you ban certain breeds, then those that want junkyard dogs will just do it with another breed. Pretty soon we'll have man eating collies and Old English Sheepdogs.

 

We need accountability.

 

I think that instead of focusing on one breed, and in particular one that is constantly miss-identified (like the guy across the street that got mad at another neighbor's golden retriever and reported it to police as a pit bull (??????REALLY?????), and the officer, who knew nothing about dogs, wrote up the complaint as a pitbull - complaint was for chasing a cat) we instead need to do more to hold dog owners accountable period. I also think it might help if law enforcement officials were actually taught to identify some breeds given that they investigate a fair number of dog complaints. This way our data on dog bites will eventually become more accurate.

[SKL]

And while dog attacks causing serious injury are horrible, the are still incredibly rare.  When you say "it's a public health issue," I guess I wonder what your criterion is.  I guess you could say that parents are a "public health issue" since there are times when they beat their children to death.  We could all probably list 100 non-banned things in every child's environment that easily cause more deaths and injuries than pit bulls.  We deal with these via education and regulations, rarely via bans.

Edited February 9, 2016 by SKL

[SKL]

I was taught that muzzling in public was actually more likely to cause the dog to act aggressive, since having their main means of defense taken away makes them nervous.

 

FTR I don't have a dog in this fight, pun intended, but I am in favor of common sense public responses.

[Pawz4me]

 There are similar stats from the CDC. 

 

Given everyone here is saying the problem is the owner, not the dog, how do you propose controlling owners ? Are 'those' type of owners going to engage in education of their own accord ? I don't think so.

 

I am tired of dealing with people's sense of entitlement over dogs. We have education, and leash laws etc, and yet dog owners consistently ignore the rules - put in place to protect HUMANS - because they are too lazy, or think it's unfair to the dogs.

 

I don't even dislike dogs. I grew up with dogs. 

 

I just don't like the sense, in this thread, that injuries and even fatalities are unfortunate, but 'not our business'. Well, whose blooming business is it ? The 'bad' owners who don't give a crap ? Good owners ? Local council ? Government ?

 

I mean, for goodness sake. It's a public health issue. Somebody needs to deal with it.

 

"Everyone" didn't say that.

 

[ktgrok]

"Bad owners" will just ignore the need to register, train, visit the vet every year.

 

Tougher actions against dogs that bite I can get behind. But that relies, to some extent, on people reporting bites. And we know that plenty of people don't, and make excuses for the dog and their owners - "It was out of character." "But the owner is a good guy!" "It's someone's pet."

 

I do understand that banning breeds is impossible. Although requiring certain breeds to be neutered sounds good to me. I also like the idea of muzzling in public, like happens with greyhounds here. 

 

I agree ,which is why it would be important to have enforcement. Dog doesn't have a license, dog goes to shelter. It's a lot easier to identify if the dog has a license than to tell what breed it is, so it would be easier to enforce than a breed ban. 

 

I also like that some insurance companies give discounts if the dog has a Canine Good Citizen title. 

[SKL]

It's common sense that the dogs responsible for most, and the most serious attacks, will be the large, highly muscled, bred for fighting or attack, breeds. 

 

Yes, a chihuahua could bite me, but it isn't going to bring me down to the ground and rip off half my face. Or take huge chunks of flesh out of my thighs, as happened with the mastiff-pitbull mix dogs ( identified as such by the owner ) which attacked me.

 

You've been attacked, so maybe that affects your perception of how likely it is that a big dog will attack.

 

I've never been seriously threatened let alone attacked by any large dog.  The only dog that ever bit me was tiny.  The only person I personally know who has been harmed by a dog enough to go to the doctor was an owner who was also taking care of her brother's dog temporarily.  The dogs got in a fight and she got between them to stop them, and one of them unintentionally bit her thigh.  She later said it was her own mistake for how she allowed them together and how she tried to break it up.  Oh, I also have a friend who grew up in a developing country and, at 4yo (50+ years ago), attempted to break up two fighting stray dogs.  She too got bitten on the leg.  It was a very bad bite.  That said, stray dogs are illegal where I live, so I think the law took care of that risk reasonably well.

 

I have known dogs of all sizes who went a little cray and snapped at people who were not threats.  They were put down rather than risk them hurting a child.  The law does not require this, but most people do care more about humans than dogs.