parenting advice

[saraha]

New development with this one in post #19...

 

So my 12 yod can push my buttons.  I mean of all of my children, this child has my number in a big way, and lately is pushing my buttons big time.  I have tried giving her more responsibility, keeping her with me more, carving out time just for us, making an effort to ask her opinion about things etc.  We will have a fine morning/afternoon/whatever, then all of a sudden, she is doing small things just to aggravate or rebel.  For instance, this evening.  We had a good day and evening.  Then it is time for bed.  Everyone else goes to upstairs, does the teeth thing and everything, then get in bed.  This child waits until everyone is in bed and then decides to start laying her clothes out (not part of our daily routine), s.l.o.w.l.y. brush her teeth, think of things to go in to her brothers' room to ask them, pretty much anything but put her pjs on and go to bed.  This seems like an insignificant example, but she tries to rebel in a thousand small ways.  Like death by a thousand paper cuts.  At this point in the day, it is now dad's priviledge to do the parenting, and he is like, just go to bed already.  The other sisters are jealous because they have done the right thing and gone to bed, while she is swanning around upstairs.  I know this sounds a little crazy, and I swear I feel like I am going crazy at times because she is making me angry over dumb things.

Anyway, I could use some advice please.

Thanks

Edited August 16, 2016 by saraha

[Anne in CA]

LOL, I am sorry. I don't have any advice. Every family has their special snowflake, and she is that girl. It's making me smile a little bit because my special snowflake is my baby, so she gets away with it because the older two are out of the house, so it's manageable. If she were not the baby this would be a bigger problem. Instead I can be a bad mom and indulge her, for the most part. Sorry, it does sound aggravating. When it's your baby it's cuter, I think.

[Joker]

She sounds like a twelve year old. If the bedtime routine is bugging you that much, have her do most of those things before it is actually bedtime. I have one that moves slowly at night as well so she puts her pjs on, lays clothes out, etc. before she relaxes for the evening with us. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Joker

[KungFuPanda]

Intentional foot draggers start the bedtime routine earlier by thirty minutes, then thirty more, etc until they're in bed on time?

[saraha]

Thanks.  Please tell me that she will grow out of this before I go completely crazy.

[fairfarmhand]

So my 12 yod can push my buttons.  I mean of all of my children, this child has my number in a big way, and lately is pushing my buttons big time.  I have tried giving her more responsibility, keeping her with me more, carving out time just for us, making an effort to ask her opinion about things etc.  We will have a fine morning/afternoon/whatever, then all of a sudden, she is doing small things just to aggravate or rebel.  For instance, this evening.  We had a good day and evening.  Then it is time for bed.  Everyone else goes to upstairs, does the teeth thing and everything, then get in bed.  This child waits until everyone is in bed and then decides to start laying her clothes out (not part of our daily routine), s.l.o.w.l.y. brush her teeth, think of things to go in to her brothers' room to ask them, pretty much anything but put her pjs on and go to bed.  This seems like an insignificant example, but she tries to rebel in a thousand small ways.  Like death by a thousand paper cuts.  At this point in the day, it is now dad's priviledge to do the parenting, and he is like, just go to bed already.  The other sisters are jealous because they have done the right thing and gone to bed, while she is swanning around upstairs.  I know this sounds a little crazy, and I swear I feel like I am going crazy at times because she is making me angry over dumb things.

Anyway, I could use some advice please.

Thanks

 

I have 2 methods for dealing with this.

 

1. I time my kids, and make the older piddly one go to bed that many more minutes earlier since they obviously don't know how to quickly get ready for bed.

 

2. I get them up that many more minutes earlier in the morning since they obviously aren't tired enough at the end of the day.

 

(sarcasm intended.)

 

This is assuming that the child in question actually needs that much sleep. Sometimes they're stalling, sometimes they feel that I'm treating them like a little kid.

 

[heartlikealion]

My son is like this! The other day we got up early for co-op and I said he could watch a little TV before we left the house if he had gotten dressed, eaten breakfast and brushed his teeth first. I never saw him move so fast in my life.

 

We're working on routine and he went to bed earlier last night. He was wide awake when dh came home later, but at least he was in bed on time. This morning he woke me up to brag that he got up early. :glare: :lol:

[Okra]

Well, this is not advice that you might expect, but I would not make this an issue at all.  She is 12, and I would try to hand over much of learning when to go to sleep.  

 

There can be guidelines and boundaries.  Parents need time by themselves, and younger siblings need to be able to go to sleep.  But, I would not be upset at all if she wasn't in bed at a certain time.

 

The teens is the time to start learning how to do things.  If you as a parent slowly start to change your perspective and way of doing things, instead of her "rebelling over a thousand little things" some of those little things can be choices that can be made.  It is okay if teens make "wrong" choices (especially about the little things).  Don't tell her she made the "Wrong choice."  

 

For instance, with the bedtime situation, I would loosen up a lot.  As long as she is not bothering you or her siblings, why not let her go to bed later?  It's okay to still get up at the same time....try to keep the dialogue open about what she thinks....does she need more sleep?

 

As she gets older you have to move into a more give and take with the kids.  Otherwise, it will continue to be...."rebelling in a thousand small ways".  

 

So, think about changing your perspective, it might work out better as she gets older.  IMO the teens is a time to try to figure things out.

Edited January 13, 2016 by Okra

[fairfarmhand]

Well, this is not advice that you might expect, but I would not make this an issue at all.  She is 12, and I would try to hand over much of learning when to go to sleep.  

 

There can be guidelines and boundaries.  Parents need time by themselves, and younger siblings need to be able to go to sleep.  But, I would not be upset at all if she wasn't in bed at a certain time.

 

The teens is the time to start learning how to do things.  If you as a parent slowly start to change your perspective and way of doing things, instead of her "rebelling over a thousand little things" some of those little things can be choices that can be made.  It is okay if teens make "wrong" choices (especially about the little things).  Don't tell her she made the "Wrong choice."  

 

For instance, with the bedtime situation, I would loosen up a lot.  As long as she is not bothering you or her siblings, why not let her go to bed later?  It's okay to still get up at the same time....try to keep the dialogue open about what she thinks....does she need more sleep?

 

As she gets older you have to move into a more give and take with the kids.  Otherwise, it will continue to be...."rebelling in a thousand small ways".  

 

So, think about changing your perspective, it might work out better as she gets older.  IMO the teens is a time to try to figure things out.

 

I do understand that perspective. And I get it. But I think that it really depends on the kid.

 

We tried this stuff with my oldest. She EVERY NIGHT kept younger sibs awake. Every morning, she didn't want to get up and/or was irritable to people because she wasn't getting enough sleep.

 

So perhaps it may be time to start a dialogue about it. We had more success when we discussed our parameter for such things "If you can read quietly that's ok, but so you don't act crabby tomorrow, Iights need to be out by x o clock." It gave my older a little special privilege but she was still able to do what needed to be done in a good frame of mind. Even at 14, 15, 16, my dd lacked the impulse control to go "Tomorrow, I'm going to be too tired. I will be irritable and rude. I should go to bed." We also had to remind our teens that this was a privilege. Big kids might get to stay up later, but they are still obligated to be kind and respectful and they still have to get stuff done the next day. I'll treat you like a bigger kid and give you more autonomy if you can prove that you can handle it. I'll help you manage it if you can't cause that's what parents do.

 

 

[Ravin]

Thanks. Please tell me that she will grow out of this before I go completely crazy.

Hahaha.

 

You are doomed.

[creekland]

By 12 mine did not have bedtimes... they chose when they wanted to go to bed.

 

If they needed to be up in the morning, they still were waken up on time.  If they were tired, we made the one line suggestion that they might want to go to bed earlier next time and left it at that.

 

Eventually it worked quite well.  

 

My guess is she's ready for a lot more independence than she's getting.  She won't be perfect with her independence, but it's a great few years for learning about life.

 

Some of us really don't like to be told what, when, and how all the time.  Others thrive upon it.  As parents, we need to figure out our kids and work with them according to their needs (not necessarily our needs).  Then too, choosing battles is a biggie.  Bedtime was never one for us.

[saraha]

I have 2 kids older than she is, and we give "older kid" priviledges out as we see the need.

 

 At 13 she will get her own stay up night like her older siblings, one night where she is allowed to stay up an hour later than everyone else and do whatever she wants; watch a big kid show, play playstation, play a game or cards with me and dad, talk, whatever, they pick.  We have to have a bedtime because we have 4 girls that range in age from 8-14 that share a room, and random bedtimes will not work, hence the special stay up night.  They each have their own flashlight so that they can read in bed after lights out.   I have been giving her autonomy in the kitchen to cook more (she loves to cook and work in the kitchen)  I have given her teaching "duties" like reading to her younger brother, "doing science" with a younger sister, let her have a "job" at church on ladies' meeting night watching the one little girl that comes with her mom in the nursery, etc.  These are all big kid things in our family.  I give her her daily school work and chore list and let her set her own schedule for the day as long as she is done by a certain time.  I know that I am not micromanaging her, so that is why I am struggling with the crazy little things she does.

 

 It really isn't just about bedtime, that was just an example from yesterday.  Today it was standing over top a younger sister who was trying to do her math and humming, then not stopping when sis asked her to and I had to come in there and make her do something else, to which she replied in a sing song voice " I wasn't hurting her..." as she took mincing little baby steps toward the other room. Or the other day when it was time to leave for her orchestra practice.  I had been on her because she was fooling around and going to make us late.  I went on out to the car to help the other kids load their things and she comes out the back door knowing that time is of the essence and then takes tiny little baby steps across the yard to the barn lot where the van was parked.  I finally had to get out of the car and put my hand on her back and make her walk faster to the van or we could have been there forever waiting on her.  Leaving her behind was not an option that day and she knew it. These are the kinds of things that drives me batty.

Edited January 13, 2016 by saraha

[KungFuPanda]

You may need to delay that big kid night until 14 with this one.  It sounds like she just isn't as mature as her older sisters.

[saraha]

You may need to delay that big kid night until 14 with this one.  It sounds like she just isn't as mature as her older sisters.

 

Do you think I am giving her too many big kid priviledges?  I was hoping that by doing that she would feel like she is being treated like an older kid and start acting like it.  

[KungFuPanda]

Do you think I am giving her too many big kid priviledges?  I was hoping that by doing that she would feel like she is being treated like an older kid and start acting like it.  

 

It depends on how she's motivated.  Are these extra rewards a right tied to age only?  Are they meant to be earned rewards for mature behavior? Would your daughter be motivated to adjust her behavior to earn this privilege if it was delayed for 3 months/6 months/a year? Will she adjust her behavior if she occasionally loses this night for disobedience? She's clearly an individual and isn't going to hit milestones when her sisters did just because she reached that age.  I don't know her, but some kids just don't change their behavior if they get he reward first.  Hey, if she cooks, she is FAR from a lost cause, but you may have to experiment to see what works for her and that just might not be the template that you have in place that worked for your other girls.

[saraha]

The stay up night is tied to age, the rest-teaching "duties", the helping at church, the cooking are all because she showed an interest and I was letting her spread her wings a little and hoping the new "jobs" would influence her behavior.

[myfunnybunch]

She's 12. In our house, 12 has been a time for testing boundaries. Thank goodness I already learned this with the older kids, because my current 12 y.o. has been a button-pushing foot-dragger. He's also an independent thinker, with a strong sense of his own direction. Those are great qualities in an adult, and challenging qualities to parent until they get there! I have one more upcoming 12 y.o. Whew.

 

I'd figure out which are the hills to die on, and which aren't.

 

I'd involve her in problem-solving ways to meet her needs for independence and choice-making, and also the meet the needs of parents (to be able to set clear reasonable boundaries which are respected, for example) and siblings (such as a clear and consistent bedtime routine that isn't interrupted by someone moving around).

 

It sounds like she needs some time to wind down and maybe some social time with brothers before bed. That might look different from what the others need. I'd help by incorporating elements of what she's doing into a bedtime routine that starts well before bedtime: Lay out clothes, put on pajamas and brush teeth, then maybe touch base with her siblings or some family time. We switched up our bedtime routine when we had foot-draggers. My boys are now in the routine of getting ready for bed after dinner. They like getting comfy in their pj's and then having some family or reading time. When it's bedtime, they just need to get into bed. Having fun time to look forward to helps them complete their necessary bedtime routine quickly. :)

[creekland]

 

 It really isn't just about bedtime, that was just an example from yesterday.  Today it was standing over top a younger sister who was trying to do her math and humming, then not stopping when sis asked her to and I had to come in there and make her do something else, to which she replied in a sing song voice " I wasn't hurting her..." as she took mincing little baby steps toward the other room. Or the other day when it was time to leave for her orchestra practice.  I had been on her because she was fooling around and going to make us late.  I went on out to the car to help the other kids load their things and she comes out the back door knowing that time is of the essence and then takes tiny little baby steps across the yard to the barn lot where the van was parked.  I finally had to get out of the car and put my hand on her back and make her walk faster to the van or we could have been there forever waiting on her.  Leaving her behind was not an option that day and she knew it. These are the kinds of things that drives me batty.

 

What does she say when the two of you have some alone, sit down time and discuss this?  (NOT a nagging parent "talk," but a basic human discussion - perhaps over ice cream or something else as a brain relaxing treat.)

 

eg:  

 

"Sally, there's something on my mind that I just can't figure out.  I need you to fill me in on it.  You're growing up to be a fine young lady - capable of so much that you do so well, but I don't get why you are trying to make us late when we go places sometimes.  Can we talk about it?"

 

I'd stick with that issue first, 'cause sibling issues (bothering them) has a different dimension to it.  If Sally hems and haws, I'd keep (nicely) pressing.

 

"Seriously, I'd honestly like to know what we're doing wrong or whatever else it is.  I see so much growth and maturity in you that this part is just puzzling to me."

 

If Sally talks with you, listen.  Genuinely listen.  Chances are, Sally wants attention and this is her way of getting it.  Some would say you shouldn't reward that, but really, kids like her will almost always become closer to you if you can get past her wall by listening to her.  That type of behavior should cease as she gets closer to you 'cause she won't want to disappoint you.  She doesn't know how to get what she's craving in other ways.  Kids don't.

 

If she doesn't talk with you or say much, then I'd drop it ending with something like, "It just puzzles me, that's all," and moving on to a different topic.  It could very well be that she hasn't realized how childish her behavior has been - she's just toying with it all without thinking.  If this is the case, she should be thinking about it now and you can ask again the next time it happens.  "See Sally? This is what I was asking about.  I don't understand why you are doing this.  Can you let me know?  You seem so grown up at other times."

 

BIG NOTE:  At no time are you calling her childish.  You're just mentioning how mature she acts at other times.  And at no time are you punishing, unless it gets to the point where she admits she's wrong and doing it to make you late.  Then you're allowed to ask, "How do we change it?  You know we can't be late and I'm wondering what we can do to fix it.  What do you suggest?"  You are allowed to make a plan off her suggestion.  That suggestion could be to give her another chance.  If so, do it.

 

Many kids switching to becoming teens hate being told what to do, but they appreciate being a team member.  Let her give suggestions to help her team get there on time.

 

If all else were to fail with trying this (should take days as you give chances), then I'd end up mentioning, "Sally, we tried doing what you suggested (or Sally, you haven't given me much) and it's not working, so perhaps you're not as mature as I thought you were.  We may have to take away _____ until you can show us you're mature enough to be helping out our family with this."

 

When I work with kids at school, it really is a combo of showing them how they can live up to expectations in a nice way - most will - and then setting a bottom line (also nicely) for those who won't - in that order - given some time to change.  They're old enough to put it all together if led to it correctly.

 

Best wishes to you.  It's difficult keeping your patience when you see the obvious so clearly, but they don't.

[saraha]

So same dd, 13 now, and she is still driving me crazy.

  Her latest trick is that nothing is ever her fault, she never apologizes, and does not take responsibility for her mistakes/decisions.  Today, she chose to wear flip flops that were not hers outside, then ruin them,  Instead of fessing up and apologizing, she hid them.  Once discovered, when sister started to cry because she really liked those shoes, she got mad and shouted I said I was sorry and stomped out.  She is currently spending time in her room.  She doesn't seem/act sorry at all.  And it wasn't "her fault", she was playing with the dog and the dog got too rough.  That is just today.  I have 2 teenagers before her, and we have so far sailed through the teen years, but this one...  and I worry because she has family members who have lived their whole adult lives as victims who have never made a mistake or bad choice.  If there are negative consequences, it is someone else's fault.  She doesn't spend much time with these people, a couple of days a year, so I don't think it is rubbing off. She also has a cousin a year older than her that she sees every week or 2 who behaves the same way, not that I am saying "Well, she is just getting it from so, and so," just trying to put out there that there are other people in her life who also behave this way.  I have tried googling, and found an article by james Dobson, but it centered on consequences for the behavior, not how to nip it in the bud.  I would like to just talk to her about this particular behavioral trait, but the two times I have have not resulted in any fruit.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

Edited August 16, 2016 by saraha

[fairfarmhand]

So same dd, 13 now, and she is still driving me crazy.

  Her latest trick is that nothing is ever her fault, she never apologizes, and does not take responsibility for her mistakes/decisions.  Today, she chose to wear flip flops that were not hers outside, then ruin them,  Instead of fessing up and apologizing, she hid them.  Once discovered, when sister started to cry because she really liked those shoes, she got mad and shouted I said I was sorry and stomped out.  She is currently spending time in her room.  She doesn't seem/act sorry at all.  And it wasn't "her fault", she was playing with the dog and the dog got too rough.  That is just today.  I have 2 teenagers before her, and we have so far sailed through the teen years, but this one...  and I worry because she has family members who have lived their whole adult lives as victims who have never made a mistake or bad choice.  If there are negative consequences, it is someone else's fault.  She doesn't spend much time with these people, a couple of days a year, so I don't think it is rubbing off. She also has a cousin a year older than her that she sees every week or 2 who behaves the same way, not that I am saying "Well, she is just getting it from so, and so," just trying to put out there that there are other people in her life who also behave this way.  I have tried googling, and found an article by james Dobson, but it centered on consequences for the behavior, not how to nip it in the bud.  I would like to just talk to her about this particular behavioral trait, but the two times I have have not resulted in any fruit.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

First, your dd likely feels attacked at those moments. Yes, she screwed up. So she's naturally going to be defensive. (not saying that's its okay or she should get away with it, but she knows she messed up)

 

instead of jumping on her, just quietly communicate the frustration and help her reflect on her actions. No lectures, no yelling, no condemnation. All of use have damaged someone else's stuff. Tell her that. Tell her that It doesn't help to get defensive and make excuses. Help her see the actions from another person's point of view. And ask her what she can do to make things right.

 

BTW, it's going to take more than 2 times to make a dent in the behaviours you want. Believe me!

 

WRT to your relatives, I know you're scared about her acting like that, but don't look at her through the lens of other people. Address her as herself.

Talk about maturity accepts responsibility and apologizes to others when they do wrong or hurt someone else.

 

Reading the Explosive Child helped me learn better ways of communicating with my touchy teen.

[Ravin]

First, I would ignore anything that James Dobson has to say. The man is a quack, and a dangerous one.

 

Second, I am struggling with a child with some of the same behaviors. She doesn't hide things, but she does try and squirm out of taking responsibility for her actions, her reactions, and her feelings. Part of that is impulse and anxiety--but we're working on owning it. Even if something wasn't premeditated, they still need to own it.

[lauranc]

I have 2 kids older than she is, and we give "older kid" priviledges out as we see the need.

 

 At 13 she will get her own stay up night like her older siblings, one night where she is allowed to stay up an hour later than everyone else and do whatever she wants; watch a big kid show, play playstation, play a game or cards with me and dad, talk, whatever, they pick.  We have to have a bedtime because we have 4 girls that range in age from 8-14 that share a room, and random bedtimes will not work, hence the special stay up night.  They each have their own flashlight so that they can read in bed after lights out.   I have been giving her autonomy in the kitchen to cook more (she loves to cook and work in the kitchen)  I have given her teaching "duties" like reading to her younger brother, "doing science" with a younger sister, let her have a "job" at church on ladies' meeting night watching the one little girl that comes with her mom in the nursery, etc.  These are all big kid things in our family.  I give her her daily school work and chore list and let her set her own schedule for the day as long as she is done by a certain time.  I know that I am not micromanaging her, so that is why I am struggling with the crazy little things she does.

 

 It really isn't just about bedtime, that was just an example from yesterday.  Today it was standing over top a younger sister who was trying to do her math and humming, then not stopping when sis asked her to and I had to come in there and make her do something else, to which she replied in a sing song voice " I wasn't hurting her..." as she took mincing little baby steps toward the other room. Or the other day when it was time to leave for her orchestra practice.  I had been on her because she was fooling around and going to make us late.  I went on out to the car to help the other kids load their things and she comes out the back door knowing that time is of the essence and then takes tiny little baby steps across the yard to the barn lot where the van was parked.  I finally had to get out of the car and put my hand on her back and make her walk faster to the van or we could have been there forever waiting on her.  Leaving her behind was not an option that day and she knew it. These are the kinds of things that drives me batty.

 

I haven't read other responses, so apologies in advance if someone already said this..

First of all, I think you're being really reasonable-- she shares a room so needs to have some kind of routine, has a flashlight so she can read if she wants,  is going to get the special one night up late experience--   (something to look forward to).

 

I wonder if she's regressing a bit before she moves forward developmentally?  All of my kids tend to do that about the 1/2 yr and full yr marks.  Just get a little more difficult during those times.   Also, wonder if it's attention seeking?

 

--L

 

 

[lauranc]

So same dd, 13 now, and she is still driving me crazy.

  Her latest trick is that nothing is ever her fault, she never apologizes, and does not take responsibility for her mistakes/decisions.  Today, she chose to wear flip flops that were not hers outside, then ruin them,  Instead of fessing up and apologizing, she hid them.  Once discovered, when sister started to cry because she really liked those shoes, she got mad and shouted I said I was sorry and stomped out.  She is currently spending time in her room.  She doesn't seem/act sorry at all.  And it wasn't "her fault", she was playing with the dog and the dog got too rough.  That is just today.  I have 2 teenagers before her, and we have so far sailed through the teen years, but this one...  and I worry because she has family members who have lived their whole adult lives as victims who have never made a mistake or bad choice.  If there are negative consequences, it is someone else's fault.  She doesn't spend much time with these people, a couple of days a year, so I don't think it is rubbing off. She also has a cousin a year older than her that she sees every week or 2 who behaves the same way, not that I am saying "Well, she is just getting it from so, and so," just trying to put out there that there are other people in her life who also behave this way.  I have tried googling, and found an article by james Dobson, but it centered on consequences for the behavior, not how to nip it in the bud.  I would like to just talk to her about this particular behavioral trait, but the two times I have have not resulted in any fruit.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

I've got one like this.  Something could have been broken completely by accident and said child would rather keel over than admit anything occurred at all.

 

I came to realize (quite late unfortunately) that this child couldn't take anything on board because said child couldn't admit to himself any wrongdoing.  It would have meant he wasn't perfect, and this child struggled with the negative aspects of perfectionism. 

 

I don't know if this might be your daughter's issue as well-- just throwing it out as a possibility. 

 

I have learned to say things like: there is no perfect, it is unattainable and we are all just a work in progress.  When I started occasionally saying these things this child relaxed considerably.  Maturity has helped as well :001_smile:

 

[goldberry]

I have had good luck with my dd by not having conversations in the middle of an incident, but having them the next day after things have calmed down.  For example, I would have sent her to the room as you did, but then had conversation later that night or the next day.

 

My dd is very emotional and reactive, so the timing was important.  But owning your responsibility is a big deal in our house, so we worked constantly on it.

 

She is pretty good now, but just the other day busted out the "it wasn't my fault!"  She was late for curfew because she had to stop and get gas.  We have told her repeatedly to get gas at the beginning of the evening or day.  "but I had to get gas, or I would have run out!"  *sigh*  It's a long process.

[saraha]

Thank you guys for all of the responses!

 

As far as her stay up night goes, she is allowed her stay up night every Thursday.  So far since her birthday she has picked board games with her dad and I.  She seems to really enjoy the special attention of just us and her (which is hard in a big family to come by)  How can I leverage her enjoyment of this time every week into better behavior?  I don't want to be constantly saying, "If you do/don't do X, you won't get your stay up night THurs" but at the same time, it seems like this could be her only "currency".  Before this, there was never really any kind of punishment or restriction we could impose that would "hurt".  Not physically of course, but for example, loss of screen time is HUGE for my 9yo and she would do anything to not lose screen time.  This dd we have never found anything like that.  Is there a way that we can express to her that maturity brings rewards AND responsibility? I have tried talking to her about it at random, nonconflict times, and she nods her head and goes along like we are talking about some random neighbor, not her.  I get that she is probably embarrassed, but at the same time, I don't see any behavior changes either.  She is a lovely, smart, considerate girl when she wants to be, but boy if she gets a wild hair, she will drive everyone crazy.

[saraha]

.

Edited August 16, 2016 by saraha

[SproutMamaK]

Please DON'T threaten to take away that time with you and your DH. The fact that she loves this one on one time so much says a lot, and trying to improve a relationship with a child by threatening to take it away... well, it would lead to disaster. If anything, she needs more of that time, not. I know that's incredibly difficult to do in a large family, but at least don't do LESS. She is already struggling with admitting fault, and saying, "If you don't act like we want you to, we'll take away the only thing you care about and make it feel like we don't care about you any more" is NOT going to make her more likely to admit when she did something wrong; quite the opposite.

I have no idea what to do instead. Not particularly helpful, I know. ;) But please, PLEASE do not threaten to take away the time you and your DH spend with her. That ends badly for both her and you.

[Carrie12345]

Before this, there was never really any kind of punishment or restriction we could impose that would "hurt". Not physically of course, but for example, loss of screen time is HUGE for my 9yo and she would do anything to not lose screen time. This dd we have never found anything like that. Is there a way that we can express to her that maturity brings rewards AND responsibility?

My 14yo has always skirted personal responsibility. It improved *slightly with frequent discussions about separating the offense/mistake/whatever from the rude and hurtful attitude.

 

What's REALLY changed her, and I'm not saying it's this specific thing (and you must be 14, anyway,) has been joining the fire department. She is part of a team, and the stakes are high. And she loves it.

 

She can still be a snot, but the improvement is amazing. Big responsibility to someone other than Mom and Dad has been excellent for her.

[OneStepAtATime]

Thank you guys for all of the responses!

 

As far as her stay up night goes, she is allowed her stay up night every Thursday.  So far since her birthday she has picked board games with her dad and I.  She seems to really enjoy the special attention of just us and her (which is hard in a big family to come by)  How can I leverage her enjoyment of this time every week into better behavior?  I don't want to be constantly saying, "If you do/don't do X, you won't get your stay up night THurs" but at the same time, it seems like this could be her only "currency".  Before this, there was never really any kind of punishment or restriction we could impose that would "hurt".  Not physically of course, but for example, loss of screen time is HUGE for my 9yo and she would do anything to not lose screen time.  This dd we have never found anything like that.  Is there a way that we can express to her that maturity brings rewards AND responsibility? I have tried talking to her about it at random, nonconflict times, and she nods her head and goes along like we are talking about some random neighbor, not her.  I get that she is probably embarrassed, but at the same time, I don't see any behavior changes either.  She is a lovely, smart, considerate girl when she wants to be, but boy if she gets a wild hair, she will drive everyone crazy.

I have to agree with a pp, please do not take away her bonding time with you and DH as a punishment for bad behavior.  The message you send could be that her behavior matters more to you than her as a person or quality time with her is something you are only willing to consider if she is a "perfect" kid (not that you would ever say that, but it is sometimes the message that comes across).  This could easily damage her self-esteem and create more problems, not fewer.

 

She may be struggling with perfectionism and possibly impulse control issues and maybe some difficulties with focus/executive function problems, lack of brain maturity in a rapidly maturing body, etc.  You say you tried talking with her twice.  It may take an entire shift in perception/attitude/approach from you and your DH and possibly some specific, structured conversations over time to help her to self-analyze and share with you.  She may not have a clue why she is doing what she is doing.  

 

Could she be bored?  Does she need a lot of activities and interaction with others and those needs are not really being fulfilled?  That probably isn't the entire issue by any means but could it be a part of the picture?  I know that DS has issues with making what would seem to me to be rational decisions on behavior when he is bored.  He is an extrovert and needs a lot of activities, purpose and interaction with others.  He also needs a lot of external structure to keep on task.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[KungFuPanda]

Does she understand that even accidents warrant sincere apologies?  No, she didn't intend to ruin the shoes, but she can be sorry it happened, sorry that her sister is upset, and take responsibility for taking someone else's belongings without asking. It's two different problems . . . taking someone else's stuff and ruining someone else's stuff.  Even if she had permission to use the shoes, she'd still need to apologize that they were ruined.  Make it clear to her that this apology doesn't mean she's a terrible person who ruined the shoes on purpose.

 

Also, does your home have clear rules and clear consequences or are you trying to come up with an appropriate consequence after each incident when emotions are high?  If it's the latter, that's too much work for you and it makes it too personal for your daughter.  If the house rules are clear, and written somewhere, she will know before she acts that if she does A then the consequence will be B.  Even IF you've never had to literally spell it out for your other children, THIS kid might need that clarity.  It'll also help with fairness if you're letting the occasional slip from the "good" kids slide because they don't do it "as much." 

[fairfarmhand]

BTW, instead of withholding fun times as a punishment, I try to frame things as "making up for bad behavior."  This often involves chores done for the person who was injured, annoyed, or hurt by the bad behavior.

[Anne in CA]

The longer I have employees, the more I see how these issues do stay with some people. They end up to be 72 and nothing is their fault, and they do passive-aggressive things and wonder why they are alone in life. I know you have relatives who are like this as adults, but some people do work through these issues and become better people for it. Kudos to you and your dh for recognizing the problem and trying to work through it.

[myfunnybunch]

 

First, your dd likely feels attacked at those moments. Yes, she screwed up. So she's naturally going to be defensive. (not saying that's its okay or she should get away with it, but she knows she messed up)

 

instead of jumping on her, just quietly communicate the frustration and help her reflect on her actions. No lectures, no yelling, no condemnation. All of use have damaged someone else's stuff. Tell her that. Tell her that It doesn't help to get defensive and make excuses. Help her see the actions from another person's point of view. And ask her what she can do to make things right.

 

BTW, it's going to take more than 2 times to make a dent in the behaviours you want. Believe me!

 

WRT to your relatives, I know you're scared about her acting like that, but don't look at her through the lens of other people. Address her as herself.

Talk about maturity accepts responsibility and apologizes to others when they do wrong or hurt someone else.

 

Reading the Explosive Child helped me learn better ways of communicating with my touchy teen.

 

:grouphug:  First, hug, OP.

 

Second, YES to the above.

 

Third, my kiddo who is the same age, the one I posted about above as a 12-year-old, struggles with similar behaviors. He is also kind, sensitive, loving, perceptive, intelligent, and has a wicked sense of humor. These kids are not "cooked" yet, and my job is to guide, teach, encourage. I have the advantage of grown daughters, and can NOW see the fruits of some of my teachings with my now-adult children, when I half-despaired in their teen years that they would ever learn to take responsibility for themselves. (LOL...sort of!) My daughters have sailed off into the world and are living happy, productive, responsible adult lives. 

 

Coming alongside and approaching issues as something to work on together rather than from a top-down perspective, working from a strength-based perspective, and time-consistency-patience while that teen brain matures are most effective with my sensitive anxious guy. Understanding what's happening in the teen brain is helpful also. They are pruning and sloughing off old connections and building new ones; their brains are scattered and disorganized, and are restructuring themselves in ways that are unique to the teen years.

 

For example, including my teens (and nearly-teen) in problem-solving when we've got an issue, seems to be pretty effective. "I see ____. This is how it affects our family/your brother/your education. How can we solve this?" LISTEN. Problem-solve. "Here's the solution we've all agreed to: ______________ . If the behavior continues, then (either we choose a consequence together, or I set a boundary about the consequences of the continued action)." Also sometimes, "If the behavior diminishes, we am more likely to (fun activity/increased privilege)." But that's about how the positive behavior creates space for those things, not necessarily about a reward vs. consequence. I also try to get to the root of my part in a negative interaction. My 13 y.o. and I just agreed that he will work on asking questions and speaking his own feeling/need respectfully, and I will work on really listening. We're working together. I keep it simple--we came up with a  three-step plan: Ask questions/clarify (both), speak feelings and needs (him) and listen (me), stop means stop (both).

 

The reward is that things improve. It's an internal, learn-by-experience, genuine reward that's way more powerful than any external momentary reward. That takes long-term thinking on both parts.  As in, in a year, or two, you find yourself thinking, "Wow. We haven't had to deal with xyz for a long time. Whew."

 

Hang in there. :grouphug:

[snickerplum]

Ours never "mean to" do anything. Tripped your sister? Wrote on the wall? Broke the toy? Nope, didn't mean to.

All four of mine felt no remorse for damaging property (they're not terrors, just don't feel bad for breaking things if it happens). So I gave them the example of me hitting a car - maybe it was an accident, maybe it wasn't (obviously a hypothetical case) but I still have to pay for the damage I caused. So I've started making jars that say who owes who for what they need to replace and that person pays in the jar until it's paid in full. Then we go buy what was damaged or broken. It has seriously decreased the "accidents" that no one "meant to" do. Those flip flops she ruined? She'd be buying a new pair at our house.

Run late on purpose? By all means, discuss it. Get her thoughts and reasoning. But if she were to continue? I'd let her explain to the music teacher/receptionist/grandma why you were late. Enough guts to run you late on purpose = enough guts to take responsibility. And I'd take up a bit of her time. Amount of time late or intentional lolly-gagging can be made up through an equal amount of housework or yard work.

Spend some time alone with her, with your Dh or either of you alone with her. Do something she loves that you can share. Let her know your feelings about what is going on, not just about the issues right now, but that you're concerned about these things and her future.

What is her love language? I know some poo-pah that book, but it's a good one.

Love her (I know you do) and help her learn in the safety of home that actions have consequences.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Bedtime means in your room and quiet. You may putter about in there as you wish. Extra minutes not on your room are added in chores and subtracted in screen time. Argue with me and the screen is gone. I don't give a hoot when you go to bed I do give a hoot if you tick off the sibs. Just how our house works. And she is 12.

Edited August 17, 2016 by joyofsix