Has the "at arm's length" advice by the German mayor already been discussed?

[rdj2027]

I was talking about US schools.

 

ETA: I grew up in Germany and attended a Catholic school.  No dress code of any kind.  I came to the US (in '84) and on my first day in school I was told what I could and could not wear.  Trust me, there was no way that even in a tank top I would have distracted any guys.  My daughter is tall and was not allowed to wear shorts other than bermudas or capris because there were no shorts longer than the end of her fingertips.  I asked why that rule was in place and was told because they wanted to avoid having boys stare at her legs (this was elementary school, 3rd grade to be precise).  My point is that this principal asked for something that is very common in the US.

Edited January 9, 2016 by rdj2027

[swimmermom3]

Is it so different than dress codes in American schools?  We have had no skirts/shorts above the knee, no tank tops, no mid riffs, no leggings, no boatnecks...  because it distracts boys.

 

Ah yes, if there is one thing I have learned on this board in the seven years I've been here, it's that men and boys are absolutely not responsible for their thoughts or their actions when it comes to women. It's a biological thing. They are pretty much on the level of your neighbor's dog who can't help but piss on the fire hydrant because it's there.  

 

My dh and sons are fairly offended by this kind of thinking.  As my oldest son says, "I've been distracted in class by girls in nearly any attire, but I am also distracted by friend sharing text funnies with me and by watching Chris fashion a mock sling shot and pretending to shoot the teacher with it when the teacher's back is turned. I'm all about equal opportunity when it comes to distractions." 

 

Rdj2027, I am not directing this at you, but am expressing a general dissatisfaction with the "asking for it" mentality. The previous poster mentioned a father out walking with his 15 yo daughter. Oh yeah, I am totally sure she was out "asking for it."

[MSNative]

I was talking about US schools.

My local schools don't have dress codes like that. We have gender neutral ones - belt if pants with belt loops, no profanity, etc. I would balk at gender specific dress codes in public schools. Do yours have those? I'm really surprised that would go over.

 

Eta: you were adding to your post while I was responding to it. Now that I've read your clarification, I would say that is wrong. I would agree with no tank tops for anyone, no short shorts for anyone, etc.Just saying girls have to cover up because boys can't control themselves is wrong.

Edited January 9, 2016 by MSNative

[umsami]

We have  dress codes here (Florida) and I grew up with even stricter ones in Michigan.  They are quite similar to the ones mentioned by the German school.  So that's not surprising to me. 

 

They still say things like no halter tops, tank tops, and backless tops cannot be worn.  No see-through clothes without appropriate undergarments.  Underwear cannot show.  Traditional under garments cannot be worn as outer garments, etc.

 

Charter schools (which are considered public schools) go even further with requirements about hair length for boys, make-up, uniform skirt length, etc.

[MSNative]

We have dress codes here (Florida) and I grew up with even stricter ones in Michigan. They are quite similar to the ones mentioned by the German school. So that's not surprising to me.

 

They still say things like no halter tops, tank tops, and backless tops cannot be worn. No see-through clothes without appropriate undergarments. Underwear cannot show. Traditional under garments cannot be worn as outer garments, etc.

 

Charter schools (which are considered public schools) go even further with requirements about hair length for boys, make-up, uniform skirt length, etc.

I'm actually in favor of most of those. I despise muscle shirts and half shirts (both pretty much boy clothes). Ewwwwww! I am fine with saying everyone has to wear short sleeves or longer, everyone has to have pants that are knee length, everyone has to keep their underwear under their clothes. If they are gender neutral and apply to everyone, I am okay with some rules. Just don't say girls better cover up so they don't ruin the boys.

 

Hair length? Makeup? Um, no. I know that charter schools have a lot more leeway but hair length? Really?

Edited January 9, 2016 by MSNative

[ChocolateReignRemix]

We have  dress codes here (Florida) and I grew up with even stricter ones in Michigan.  They are quite similar to the ones mentioned by the German school.  So that's not surprising to me. 

 

They still say things like no halter tops, tank tops, and backless tops cannot be worn.  No see-through clothes without appropriate undergarments.  Underwear cannot show.  Traditional under garments cannot be worn as outer garments, etc.

 

Charter schools (which are considered public schools) go even further with requirements about hair length for boys, make-up, uniform skirt length, etc.

 

I think the issue here is a school changing its dress code because of immigrants moving into the area.  

 

If they did so because they don't think the Muslim immigrants can be trusted, that is disturbing.

 

If they did so because the new immigrants pose a threat, that is even more disturbing.

 

I hope and suspect it is the former.

Edited January 9, 2016 by ChocolateReignRemix

[3 ladybugs]

I think the issue here is a school changing its dress code because of immigrants moving into the area.  

 

If they did so because they don't think the Muslim can be trusted, that is disturbing.

 

If they did so because the new immigrants pose a threat, that is even more disturbing.

 

I hope and suspect it is the former.

I agree completely! If this is just something that they have been wanting to do for a while and haven't got around to it then it shouldn't be news. However if they are doing it because of immigrants then it is scary and disturbing. 

 

My son has German class tomorrow and I am sure this issue will come up in the parents area. I am really looking forward to hearing what German ex-pats (can you be an ex-pat from a country other then America??) think. 

[MSNative]

I think the issue here is a school changing its dress code because of immigrants moving into the area.

 

If they did so because they don't think the Muslim can be trusted, that is disturbing.

 

If they did so because the new immigrants pose a threat, that is even more disturbing.

 

I hope and suspect it is the former.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the refugees. Cologne had a fairly sizable Muslim population before the refugees. I read 12% of the population of the city somewhere but of course now I can't find it. Since the school headmaster specifically mentioned the refugees, I would think that is why they are changing the dress code, not just because of Muslims in general.

 

I'm not sure if it's more disturbing. I think it is good if the school didn't feel any reason to tighten up the dress code because of the Muslims residents and citizens. It seems preferable that they are worried about one specific group rather than all male believers of a major religion.

 

I don't know if there has been an actual problem with that specific group that the headmaster is referring to or not. If so, the solution to me would be to deal with the problem people in that particular spot rather than telling all girls to cover up. If there really are sexual predators in that housing facility wouldn't it be better to deal with them rather than allowing them to assault the female refugees too?

And then the other option is what you mentioned - that the headmaster hates the refugees and/or was looking for an excuse to impose new dress code rules. Have you read any evidence of that? (Yes I did fire up my google search but my internet is testy with the storm we are having)

Edited January 9, 2016 by MSNative

[umsami]

I'm actually in favor of most of those. I despise muscle shirts and half shirts (both pretty much boy clothes). Ewwwwww! I am fine with saying everyone has to wear short sleeves or longer, everyone has to have pants that are knee length, everyone has to keep their underwear under their clothes. If they are gender neutral and apply to everyone, I am okay with some rules. Just don't say girls better cover up so they don't ruin the boys.

 

Hair length? Makeup? Um, no. I know that charter schools have a lot more leeway but hair length? Really?

 

Yup.  Boys cannot have hair that goes beyond the collar or touches the collar (some such thing).  No "unnatural colors".  Limits on amount of jewelry and size.  Etc.   (Depends on the charter, but these are quite common.  (Note: I'm in Florida, which may seem faux-Southern, but it's very much the Bible belt in many ways.))

 

I think the issue here is a school changing its dress code because of immigrants moving into the area.  

 

If they did so because they don't think the Muslim can be trusted, that is disturbing.

 

If they did so because the new immigrants pose a threat, that is even more disturbing.

 

I hope and suspect it is the former.

 

I agree.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the refugees. Cologne had a fairly sizable Muslim population before the refugees. I read 12% of the population of the city somewhere but of course now I can't find it. Since the school headmaster specifically mentioned the refugees, I would think that is why they are changing the dress code, not just because of Muslims in general.

 

I'm not sure if it's more disturbing. I think it is good if the school didn't feel any reason to tighten up the dress code because of the Muslims residents and citizens. It seems preferable that they are worried about one specific group rather than all male believers of a major religion.

 

I don't know if there has been an actual problem with that specific group that the headmaster is referring to or not. If so, the solution to me would be to deal with the problem people in that particular spot rather than telling all girls to cover up. If there really are sexual predators in that housing facility wouldn't it be better to deal with them rather than allowing them to assault the female refugees too?

And then the other option is what you mentioned - that the headmaster hates the refugees and/or was looking for an excuse to impose new dress code rules. Have you read any evidence of that? (Yes I did fire up my google search but my internet is testy with the storm we are having)

 

My post was supposed to say "Muslim immigrants" but I left a word out.

[Lady Florida.]

Ah yes, if there is one thing I have learned on this board in the seven years I've been here, it's that men and boys are absolutely not responsible for their thoughts or their actions when it comes to women. It's a biological thing. They are pretty much on the level of your neighbor's dog who can't help but piss on the fire hydrant because it's there.

And yet, they are supposed to be the leaders of their families and wives should submit to them. That makes no sense to me how they can at once be not responsible for their thoughts and actions, and still be in charge. It's a wonder they can be leaders of anything, what with all those distracting females everywhere they look.

 

My dh and sons are fairly offended by this kind of thinking.  As my oldest son says, "I've been distracted in class by girls in nearly any attire, but I am also distracted by friend sharing text funnies with me and by watching Chris fashion a mock sling shot and pretending to shoot the teacher with it when the teacher's back is turned. I'm all about equal opportunity when it comes to distractions."

My dh, son, and stepson are offended by that kind of thing too. As for distractions, my son with ADHD is distracted by a fly on the wall or ticking clock, or the sound of someone's pencil, or the overload of thoughts in his head. He doesn't need to worry about women distracting him when there are so many distractions to choose from.

 

 

No woman, no man, no one, is ever "asking for it" unless they are literally asking for it.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Lady Florida

[Negin]

This article is a great one. "Fear of racism trumps feminism every single time." 

 

Also thought to share a quote from one of my favorite people ever, Golda Meir, the former Prime Minister of Israel. When responding to a request to impose a curfew on women as a result of a series of rapes, she said. â€œBut it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home.†

[rdj2027]

I am offended, that is why I made the point.  Just because someone is from a particular country doesn't make them "dangerous" but here in the US I too often encounter the "boys/men" can't be trusted which offends me as a mother of three boys as well.  My question is, does it make a difference whether one distrusts one because they are from a different country of because one is of a particular gender?  Deal with the people who commit the crime but don't discriminate in a blanket fashion regardless on what the discrimination is based.

 

[Negin]

I prefer this one from Maajid Nawaz

Sadie, thank you for this. I just started reading it and looks like an excellent article. 

[MSNative]

This article is a great one. "Fear of racism trumps feminism every single time."

 

Also thought to share a quote from one of my favorite people ever, Golda Meir, the former Prime Minister of Israel. When responding to a request to impose a curfew on women as a result of a series of rapes, she said. “But it is the men who are attacking the women. If there is to be a curfew, let the men stay at home.â€

I saw that quote too and liked it. Glad you shared it.

 

The article you linked is good too. I wasn't exactly sure what the article was saying based on just the quote (and my lack of sleep and caffeine). Reading the sentences after it helps

"Fear of racism trumps feminism every single time.) Ralf Jaeger, interior minister for North Rhine-Westphalia, epitomised that cultural cringe when he warned that anti-immigrant groups were using the attacks to stir up hatred against refugees. "What happens on the right-wing platforms and in chat rooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.

Nein, nein, nein, mein Herr. Attitudes are not the same as deeds. Women in Europe have not fought for equal rights all these long years only to be told to start modifying their behaviour to avoid being molested."

 

Ok and I just had to delete a bunch of quotes that I wanted to share from that article. It was really good and a fast read so I won't just quote the whole thing here.

Edited January 9, 2016 by MSNative

[MSNative]

My post was supposed to say "Muslim immigrants" but I left a word out.

Ok, that makes more sense. But I'm still curious why you think it is worse that they fear the refugees rather than the Muslim immigrants.

I'm guessing it's because you think that will cause more anti-refugee sentiment which will be detrimental to refugees who truly need help?

[Ausmumof3]

This story reminds me a little of the story about the rioting in Egypt where similar stuff was happening.

[OnMyOwn]

Ugh, I usually like The Guardian, but their opinion piece on 'asking hard questions' was appalling - basically a variation on wealthy white girls asked for it, and besides, the police are to blame.

 

I prefer this one from Maajid Nawaz

Honestly, I didn't find this article a whole lot better. It seems to acknowledge that the refugees come from a background where "if you want a woman, it is okay to take her." It also acknowledges that 70% of these refugees are men. The only solutions being proposed are 1) women shouldn't be blamed and 2) a class for the refugees. What is the chance that a class will be effective after 25 years of cultural indoctrinization, especially when the police and the media are afraid to respond for fear of being thought a racist? I have to ask, why it is okay to put the safety and freedom of so many women at risk? Is it because some of the refugees are not a risk to the women and shouldn't be punished? Why should their innocence trump the innocence of the women? Very, very upsetting.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I read an article a few days ago from mid December that Norway already has classes. The Eritrean immigrant (Muslim and 33 years old) they interviewed who went through the classes said it was hard to see Norwegian women smiling in public and not think that meant they were coming on to him. He also wouldn't accept the idea that forced sex with your wife is rape.

 

Eta: link http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=1

 

How are the native women supposed to live if many refugees consider smiling in public to be about the same as holding up a sign inviting them to bed?

Edited January 9, 2016 by HoppyTheToad

[Anne in CA]

Some of these issues simply have to do with the fact that in the places these refugees come from they have never seen authority that was not abusive and have no good internal ideas of justice. If they did not get character training that made them a better person when they were young from their parents they were unable to get it from society and the amount of freedom in a western country is not something they will probably ever be able to handle.

 

One of the best people I have ever known in my life was from Eritrea. He was a Christian, not Muslim, but he was such a pleasure to work with for 17 years. But the life he had in Eritrea was awful. When he was 15 he was given a gun by the army and told to never put it down. He says he thanks God every day that he never killed anyone in anger with it. Every one of his friends but him did. When he first came to America he lived in the worst part of Oakland for three years and loved it. He never felt unsafe there, lol. His wife made him move to Portland to have children because she considered Oakland unsafe.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok, that makes more sense. But I'm still curious why you think it is worse that they fear the refugees rather than the Muslim immigrants.

I'm guessing it's because you think that will cause more anti-refugee sentiment which will be detrimental to refugees who truly need help?

 

What I was saying is that if a group is (refugees/immigrants) is actually posing a physical threat that is worse than if the rule was changed simply because the headmaster is bigoted and thinks/assumes they pose a threat due to their religion/nationality.

The distinction for me being that deeds are worse than thoughts.

[MSNative]

What I was saying is that if a group is (refugees/immigrants) is actually posing a physical threat that is worse than if the rule was changed simply because the headmaster is bigoted and thinks/assumes they pose a threat due to their religion/nationality.

The distinction for me being that deeds are worse than thoughts.

I completely agree with your distinction. Deeds are worse that thoughts.

Edited January 9, 2016 by MSNative

[idnib]

What is the chance that a class will be effective after 25 years of cultural indoctrinization, especially when the police and the media are afraid to respond for fear of being thought a racist?

 

I think a class would work fairly well. I grew up my whole life surrounded by immigrants from the majority Muslim countries and if they are given guidance about how to behave in certain situations, they follow it. They may resent it or not agree with it on the inside, and it may be difficult to change actual thinking, but if only a behavioral change is desired, that can be done. If there's one thing I noticed it's that they conform to local standards when needed, even if they fall back on their conditioning when they are with others of their culture or when they visit their countries of origin.

[LucyStoner]

Could you post a link to an English language article? The WashPo article linked above doesn't describe a riot, it says that small groups of men broke off from a larger group to attack and rob individual women at the train station. It doesn't describe what you're describing, but you've undoubtedly read better sources in German than that article.

A UK woman who was in Cologne for NYE was interviewed on the BBC. She described what happened and it absolutely sounded like a mob scene.

[Guest]

n/m cant be doing this today

Edited January 9, 2016 by OKBud

[SporkUK]

Sigh.  Way to blame the victim, lady.

 

Just going to add that in Egypt, 99% of women report sexual harassment.  (Realize this is not Syria.)  It doesn't matter what women are wearing.  They've attacked women in niqab. (Niqab is the face veil.  You can't get more covered up than that.)  

 

Some men are sexual predators.  It's a problem women in every country face.   I'm not so sure if this would be making the international news if these were "just" Germans.  In some Middle Eastern countries, perps often get away with attacks because of a "blame the victim" mentality and not wanting to tarnish a girl or even her entire family's reputation.  It's a big problem.  We're slowly changing attitudes in the US and other Western countries...but there's still a long way to go abroad.  I have seen a lot of positive changes over the past 3-4 years regarding domestic violence and sexual abuse, though.  Hoping it continues.

 

The bold was a sentiment that I heard expressed by a few German women that spoke out on this. Carnival in Germany, mentioned elsewhere in the thread, often has far higher rates of sexual attacks usually by native White German men, but many German women find it hard to get police to act, especially in areas like Cologne where police have apparently been understaffed and underfunded for quite some time, or the media to acknowledge this sometimes even locally let alone nationally or internationally.

 

It feels like a perfect horrendous storm situation as many of the areas that were attacked this way like Cologne seem to be tourists spot with easy transport in and out [so ease of escape for perps] and lower police level due to cuts and other things during a festive time when lots of people are out. My heart aches for those attacked, and those who likely will be attacked in retaliation to this, when it seems like it will be very difficult to get justice for anyone. 

[Carol in Cal.]

I can't remember whether this article has been posted yet.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cologne-attacks-trigger-raw-debate-on-immigration-in-germany-a-1071175.html

[idnib]

I can't remember whether this article has been posted yet.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cologne-attacks-trigger-raw-debate-on-immigration-in-germany-a-1071175.html

 

Thank you. It's a well-researched article and I think it highlights a certain lack of leadership happening in various sectors of the government right now, whether Merkel is losing hearts and minds, or police are underestimating the need for more presence. (I'm referring here to the denial of the request for additional officers in place that night.)

[K&Rs Mom]

There's a better article to write about why a mass attack might be organised in such a way - a very public biting of the hand that feeds you. In whose interests is it to stir up the right ? 

 

Now that's an interesting question.  I'd love to hear some theories on this, because all I've seen is from the right (like Bracken's Tet, Take Two).  I think looking for the cause would help find the solution.

[Carol in Cal.]

http://thefederalist.com/2016/01/11/in-europe-muslim-extremists-turn-to-sexual-terrorism/?utm_source=The+Federalist+List&utm_campaign=d373feedff-RSS_The_Federalist_Daily_Updates_w_Transom&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_cfcb868ceb-d373feedff-53792057

[Liz CA]

I have to say that since I have been following these events and have been reading local papers, I am disturbed at what appears to be a lack of force on the side of law enforcement. I am sure many officers were frustrated because they were understaffed and could not prevent some of the brutality but those occupying top law enforcement positions seem to be more concerned with "how their comments could be interpreted" in terms of Islamaphobic, anti-foreigners, etc. This should not be the prime concern. Finding those who were involved regardless of who they are, should be the priority. I am sure this is a process and things are happening as I am typing but I wish I got a better gut feeling from all the articles I have read.

[Carol in Cal.]

I have to say that since I have been following these events and have been reading local papers, I am disturbed at what appears to be a lack of force on the side of law enforcement. I am sure many officers were frustrated because they were understaffed and could not prevent some of the brutality but those occupying top law enforcement positions seem to be more concerned with "how their comments could be interpreted" in terms of Islamaphobic, anti-foreigners, etc. This should not be the prime concern. Finding those who were involved regardless of who they are, should be the priority. I am sure this is a process and things are happening as I am typing but I wish I got a better gut feeling from all the articles I have read.

I see this as being above the heads of law enforcement.  Earlier in this thread I posted what I thought the mayor of Cologne should have said, and the fact that she didn't and still hasn't means that if her underlings in law enforcement say something along those lines, they are running ahead of her out on a limb.  I still think they should do it, but I think that the fact that the higher ups in government still have not done so is why law enforcement has not, either.

[Liz CA]

I see this as being above the heads of law enforcement.  Earlier in this thread I posted what I thought the mayor of Cologne should have said, and the fact that she didn't and still hasn't means that if her underlings in law enforcement say something along those lines, they are running ahead of her out on a limb.  I still think they should do it, but I think that the fact that the higher ups in government still have not done so is why law enforcement has not, either.

 

Yes, this is true. I am just wondering if BKA and LKA will be involved. These are somewhat similar agencies to State and Federal Bureau of Investigations. Laws are a little different there in terms of jurisdiction and I am not knowledgeable on all those fine details but Köln was not the only place where this happened. Hamburg and Frankfurt experienced similar incidents.

Perhaps Regentrude, who has lived there more recently than I have, has more knowledge about LKA and BKA jurisdiction. BUT, of course, if politicians are afraid to pursue it, neither of those - usually well reputed - agencies may get authorization to investigate.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Liz CA

[umsami]

Saw this and thought it should be publicized... as with anything, there are good and bad people.

 

Syrian refugee rescued American student in Cologne  

 

"At that moment, she was sobbing, disheveled, distraught. Separated from her German boyfriend and her cellphone. And it became clear to her new Syrian protector that she knew limited German. So the Syrian man went to get his friend, Hesham Ahmad Mohammad, who spoke English.

The men volunteered to help Duncan locate her boyfriend.  

"They first said, 'OK, you can use our phone,'" she says, adding that in the craziness of the moment she couldn't remember her boyfriend's number.

Then they went one step further: They offered Duncan 70 euros for a taxi back to her boyfriend's home. But she wanted to stay and keep looking for her friend."

[Valley Girl]

Saw this and thought it should be publicized... as with anything, there are good and bad people.

 

Syrian refugee rescued American student in Cologne  

 

"At that moment, she was sobbing, disheveled, distraught. Separated from her German boyfriend and her cellphone. And it became clear to her new Syrian protector that she knew limited German. So the Syrian man went to get his friend, Hesham Ahmad Mohammad, who spoke English.

The men volunteered to help Duncan locate her boyfriend.  

"They first said, 'OK, you can use our phone,'" she says, adding that in the craziness of the moment she couldn't remember her boyfriend's number.

Then they went one step further: They offered Duncan 70 euros for a taxi back to her boyfriend's home. But she wanted to stay and keep looking for her friend."

 

What lovely gentlemen. Every country needs more people like them.

[MSNative]

 

Ugh did you see this? "The events of New Year's Eve were the girls own fault, because they were half naked and wearing perfume," Charming. Those poor men couldnt possibly have shown self control. I mean the girls were wearing perfume!! Perfume I tell you!

 

http://www.detroitnewstime.com/regional/118256-muslim-cleric-sami-abu-yusuf-says-cologne-sex-attacks-were-the-victims’-fault.html

[MSNative]

Wow.

 

Reminds me of the cleric in my own suburb some years back, who excused convicted rapists by comparing the victim to 'uncovered meat left out for the cat'.

 

I find these attitudes incredibly disturbing in whatever context they occur.

That is horrible.

[umsami]

He's a Salafi Imam.  No surprise there.  (Salafis are the uber uber fundamentalist/conservatives who basically wish to live in the 7th century.)  

 

As I've said before, in my experience, the fundamentalist preachers of all faiths are very similar.

 

Fundamentalist Christian pastor makes 15 year old rape victim apologize to Congregation.

 

In Israel, modesty patrols.... http://www.violenceisnotourculture.org/content/jewish-%E2%80%98modesty-patrols%E2%80%99-sow-fear-israel

 

Ultra Orthodox Jewish attack buses that encourage women to worship at the Western Wall

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/23/ultra-orthodox-jerusalem-bus-ad_n_6036936.html

 

Christian fundamentalist group (IBLP/ATI) blames rape victims (immodest dress, indecent exposure, evil friends)....and thinks that brothers shouldn't change little sister's diapers.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/26/duggars-homeschooling-sex-abuse_n_7445238.html

 

And there are many many more among fundamentalist Muslims, Christians, and Jews.  

[Negin]

...

Edited January 22, 2016 by Negin

[MSNative]

Is there any sort of legal ramifications for this type of talk? I mean if the authorities could trace one of the attackers back to this mosque, could they charge this guy with anything? Having someone in authority telling guys that girls are asking for it like that surely seems like it should be illegal. And that is true in any religion or situation. Surely if a basketball coach told his guys that girls who wear perfume are saying that they want you to violate them and his players acted on it he would be held responsible? Ok or he ought to be but would he?

[umsami]

Saw this article today....so four of the 59 men identified for the sex attacks were refugees.  The vast majority were not refugees.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cologne-sex-assaults-muslim-rape-myths-fit-a-neo-nazi-agenda-a6872566.html

 

"On Friday, the Cologne prosecutor Ulrich Bremer in fact told me that, of the 59 suspects pinpointed so far, just four are from war-torn countries (Syria and Iraq), only 14 are in custody, and nobody has yet been charged. Nearly 600 hours of CCTV reveals very little, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attacks were planned in advance.

 

The refugee-as-rapist construct is the kind that has been used to demonise people throughout history. The idea is that you apply frightening characteristics to those you view as political enemies. In the 1930s Cologne’s Jews were described as 'Untermenschen' (inferior people) menacing European culture, before 11,000 were murdered during the Nazi Holocaust by “racially pure†Aryans, many of them beer-swilling Christians. "

[EmseB]

Saw this article today....so four of the 59 men identified for the sex attacks were refugees.  The vast majority were not refugees.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cologne-sex-assaults-muslim-rape-myths-fit-a-neo-nazi-agenda-a6872566.html

 

"On Friday, the Cologne prosecutor Ulrich Bremer in fact told me that, of the 59 suspects pinpointed so far, just four are from war-torn countries (Syria and Iraq), only 14 are in custody, and nobody has yet been charged. Nearly 600 hours of CCTV reveals very little, and there is no evidence whatsoever that the alleged attacks were planned in advance.

 

The refugee-as-rapist construct is the kind that has been used to demonise people throughout history. The idea is that you apply frightening characteristics to those you view as political enemies. In the 1930s Cologne’s Jews were described as 'Untermenschen' (inferior people) menacing European culture, before 11,000 were murdered during the Nazi Holocaust by “racially pure†Aryans, many of them beer-swilling Christians. "

 

This seems to refute that report.

 

Cologne prosecutor Ulrich Bremer said 73 suspects have been identified so far - most of them from North Africa. A total of 1,075 criminal complaints have been filed, including 467 alleging crimes of a sexual nature ranging from insults to rape.

 

"The overwhelming majority of persons fall into the general category of refugees," Bremer told The Associated Press, saying recent reports describing only three of the suspects as refugees were "total nonsense."

 

[gardenmom5]

I was on a busy street in Mexico City. If you stop dead and start screaming obscenities at someone, you will draw attention to yourself and your assailant. It doesn't jive with our ingrained sense of decorum, but it works even in a crowd, maybe especially in a crowd. As soon as people are watching, the gropers/pickpockets stop because they don't want an audience for their crimes.

The desire for lack of audience doesn't jive with the reporter who was being filmed!, her cameraman pointing a big video camera right at her, when she was groped by a guy who came right up to her.

Edited February 17, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Carol in Cal.]

He's a Salafi Imam.  No surprise there.  (Salafis are the uber uber fundamentalist/conservatives who basically wish to live in the 7th century.)  

 

As I've said before, in my experience, the fundamentalist preachers of all faiths are very similar.

 

 

There are huge differences in degree of results, and that should not be either exaggerated or swept under the rug.

[chiguirre]

The difference between the Independent's claim (Umsami) and CBS' claim (JodiSue) is how they are characterizing North Africans. While the Moroccans and Algerians involved might been claiming asylum, their countries are not at war and they're likely just economic migrants trying their luck in the German legal system. They may also just be in Europe illegally. They're not fleeing for their lives from shelling and starvation. I think the Independent's claim that they are not refugees is more truthy than CBS' claim that they are refugees.

 

The Belgian reporter was groped by European men (likely drunk Germans celebrating Carnival). Cologne has had an unsavory reputation for a long time and quite a lot of it is homegrown.

[EmseB]

The difference between the Independent's claim (Umsami) and CBS' claim (JodiSue) is how they are characterizing North Africans. While the Moroccans and Algerians involved might been claiming asylum, their countries are not at war and they're likely just economic migrants trying their luck in the German legal system. They may also just be in Europe illegally. They're not fleeing for their lives from shelling and starvation. I think the Independent's claim that they are not refugees is more truthy than CBS' claim that they are refugees.

 

The Belgian reporter was groped by European men (likely drunk Germans celebrating Carnival). Cologne has had an unsavory reputation for a long time and quite a lot of it is homegrown.

 

 

 

I was posting the CBS article because it was the prosecutor's own words rather than the Independent's take which was someone talking about what the prosecutor supposedly told him.

 

And, while the people largely responsible may be from NA instead of refugees from Syria/Iraq, the demographics of the criminals are still going to inform Germany/Europe's policy on immigration, asylum seekers, and refugees from MENA going forward.