I need opinions on this science situation

[PeacefulChaos]

ETA: 

Just thought I'd update everyone, my last post or so was a bit emotional, because even though I knew in my brain that people weren't intending to be mean, you know how it can be sometimes when you're already feeling down.  :)

 

Anyway, when I posted I had already pretty much decided to drop the tests.  I don't give Astro grades on anything.  I addressed it, briefly, in one of the other threads I posted, but just to cover all the bases: I never really expected him to do awesome on the tests.  Not to say I had low expectations - I just really didn't see them as a measure of anything.  We did them because they were in the book and because it gives him a chance to not always be overridden by Link knowing the answer.  
I didn't really have any expectations of science at all for the year - for me, it was sort of a free/gap year where we'd do what the kids were interested in, and they asked for our planet and astronomy.  I got recommendations for such at their grade level and then researched online.  I'm not displeased with the material - nor are they.
So anyway, I wasn't interested in dropping the tests because *I* felt he was doing poorly or not good enough - it never crossed my mind to care about such one way or another.  The thing that bothered me - that had me all emotional the other day - is because it bothered him.  I didn't expect it to any more than getting answers wrong and redoing problems with a new math concept (which he does with no problem).  

So I was upset because I was blindsided by him caring about it so much.  Granted, he was over it in like, one minute, when we started playing hangman for state capitals.  :lol:  But I wasn't over it that quickly because we've never had an instance where a kid seemed to feel like he was failing, at least not that kid (Pink considers fixing one thing to be a failure lol, but that's a maturity thing that we're working on :D ).  It's not something we're putting on them.

 

The tests were given in a very low stress, low priority way.  As is much of what we do, school-wise.  

For science, I've never expected perfection or amazing performance in any way.  It's something we do just to have the basic scientific ideas, to have fun, and whatever they can retain, they do.  At the very least, I've already seen evidence in the years we've been doing it that even if there's something they don't remember, it's not unfamiliar when they see it elsewhere.  It just gives them reference points.  

Grades have no place in our school until 6th grade (though I do check their work from the beginning, which I often refer to as grading though there is no grade given: I check it for accuracy, make sure they understand the concept, and work through it with them or remind them of something, and they fix it), at which point I started doing very loose grading so that the kid would get used to it.  And again, those things weren't really a part of the discussion.  I don't feel like telling a twelve year old that they get out of school what they put into it is unrealistic or above what he can handle.  But again, the grading does not apply to the child I am talking about.  And I said from the beginning that it wasn't something that I was planning on changing, because it literally has. nothing. to. do. with. him.   Or the situation.

 

 

 

All that said, I did drop the tests like I was originally planning.  He likes to do work with me, so he and I will do the 10-12 questions as a worksheet or something together, and use the book if necessary, while Link does his test.  

The rest of the time, we're keeping pretty much everything the same.  The definitions are fill-in-the-blank, mostly typed out with one to two words to fill in, because I've found that for both kids, they retain things better if it's something that's talked about orally and that they can guess an answer on.  It's something we all kind of have fun doing.

 

 

Anyway, just wanted to update on the decision I made and all that.  :)  Thanks again for everything.  :)

 

 

 

 

ORIGINAL:

Okay.  Here's the deal:

 

This may be kind of weird and not make much sense so I guess I'll start at the beginning.

 

The first year I homeschooled, the boys were in 2nd grade and K.  This is primarily about Astro, the younger one.

 

In K, he did the regular WTM recommendations for 1st grade biology with Link.  In 1st grade, we tried switching to Apologia Astronomy and hated it, so then ended up sort of skipping it.  About halfway through the year - maybe even further - I decided to buy the stuff for the WTM science but we never really did it.  In 2nd, I was still trying to do science with both boys together and they were going to do WTM chemistry - we did it for maybe the first 8 weeks and never got to it again, because it is impossible around here to do subjects together on a regular basis.

In 3rd, I put Astro on his own in WTM chemistry and it went great.  He loved it, he thought it was really fun, and it got done every week.  

 

For some reason, rather than moving onto WTM physics for 4th grade this year, I asked him what he wanted to do (I think because I was beginning to look into science programs in the upper levels, and had decided that the kids would start Apologia's upper level sciences in 7th grade, and I'd picked something else for 5th-6th grade) and he said he wanted to learn about our planet.  Link wanted to learn astronomy (also the first time I'd asked, just filling in the year before he starts Apologia GS next year), so I thought 'oh, fine, I'll put them together for science one last time and do Astronomy and Earth Science.

 

After looking into some different books, I decided to go with Prentice Hall's Science Explorer Earth Science series.  There are 5 books - Inside Earth, Earth's Changing Surface, Earth's Waters, Weather and Climate, and Astronomy.  We're a little over halfway through the 3rd book; we're doing well at getting it done daily.  As far as doing it goes, we're getting it done.

 

The problem lies in the tests.

 

Astro has decided he hates science because this is totally different from anything he had done up to this point.  Of course, I know that at some point science has to go from just the 'fun' experiments to learning more about things, taking notes, knowing definitions, etc, etc, but part of me hates that this has to happen for Astro now.  

 

We read a section of the chapter per day.  We copy the definitions that go with that chapter.  We do labs when we get to them.  At the end of the chapter, we do a study guide and the next day they take a test.  I've gone through the tests and gotten rid of some questions that I don't feel were accurately covered in the chapter, and I've taken even more out on Astro's test so his test is usually almost entirely multiple choice and true or false.  

 

He consistently fails them.  He reads over the study guide a few times and he still has never pulled anything better than a D.

 

So I don't know what I should do.  He hadn't really expressed much about it before, but today after he got his grade back on his test (an F), he cried.  

 

I don't want him to be defeated.  I don't want him to hate science at this stage because of this.

 

What should I do?  

 

I could always not have him take the tests and only have Link do it, but that feels sort of weird to me - I hate to say unfair because I honestly don't believe that the world is fair and I don't have a problem with fairness, usually - after all, his test is already heavily edited to be simpler and shorter than Link's is.  On the other hand, I only do the tests and grade them because I'm giving Link grades this year for practice for both of us (beginning in HS he'll have to have a transcript, and I want to get him used to being graded for a few years first, plus I want to get used to doing it).  

 

Neither kid has ever had tests (other than math) on a regular basis before this.  Standardized yearly tests, yes, but this kind of test, no.

 

I could always change him to another science entirely, though that would require finding something else and spending money for something that we'd only need for the next 17 weeks.  

 

Next year he'll be doing Galore Park science, and I think he'll like it better than this.  I don't know exactly what grade level our science is written for, but I don't feel like it actually goes way over his head.  I know that he doesn't have any sort of test anxiety because in general he's always tested better than my other kids have.

 

 

Idk.  I don't know what to do.  I don't want to keep doing something to him that I feel isn't getting anywhere except making him feel down, you know?  

Edited January 2, 2016 by PeacefulChaos

[Critterfixer]

I would either drop the tests (I don't do them with my boys) or make the test open book so that he can start seeing how he should be studying for them.

[Carol in Cal.]

I didn't use any tests except math ones all the way through.  I made sure DD knew the material via discussion and oral or written or presented reports, and I used standardized test practice books to make sure she had test taking skills.  She did take the CA state tests every year.

 

In general I think that science and social studies tests for the elementary years, and for that matter reading 'comprehension' tests, are stupid, irrelevant, and useless.  Hence I wouldn't judge my kids by them nor would I want my kids to judge themselves by them.  Those tests are mostly for big classrooms of kids in which the teacher doesn't know whether the kids know the material or not, and the teacher teaches specifically to the tests more so than to mastery, usually.  Also those books are for middle school, so they are tough to start with.

 

If I were you I wouldn't test either one of them.  But I'm radical like that.  Just wanted to give you a picture of a very successful homeschooling experience that didn't have that stuff.  

[regentrude]

I would see this a s a sign that the program you are using is not accomplishing what you thought it would.

 

I see absolutely no reason to make a 10 year old memorize science stuff (which in many curricula consists to a large extent of vocabulary) for tests.

I would ditch the program, get books from the library, and cover science informally, based on my student's interest.

High school is early enough to get a textbook+test approach.

 

(And lest you think I am not science minded: I am a physics professor  - but the above is what I did with my kids. I have not come across any science "curriculum" that I liked.)

 

 

 

Of course, I know that at some point science has to go from just the 'fun' experiments to learning more about things, taking notes, knowing definitions, etc, etc, but part of me hates that this has to happen for Astro now.

 

There is no reason it "has" to. Making a 10 y/o copy and memorize definitions is a pretty sure way to kill any interest in, and love of, science.

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[PeacefulChaos]

It's just that giving a grade I feel like I need tests, if they are offered, at least in some subjects.  Language Arts - unnecessary.  History - unnecessary.  Pretty much everything else - unnecessary.  But if they aren't taking a test in science, I don't know how to determine whether or not the material is sinking in.  

If I didn't have tests to help grade with (looking forward, not in 4th grade), what would I use?  Just participation?  Labs?  Etc?  As it is I'm not counting Link's test toward much of his grade (tests are 10% right now) compared to what it is in college.  I know he's got several years, but I'm always thinking ahead to try to get them as prepared for the future as possible.

 

Plus, Apologia is definitely what we'll be using for the upper levels and they have tests, and I really don't want to skip them.  

 

 

Like I said, I've never tested on anything else.  The kids never take any tests in the grammar stage other than math, which they always do great on.  

 

 

That all said, I don't necessarily have a problem dropping the tests from Astro, other than just that then there'd be no way to know whether or not he's actually learned anything.  Granted, I never bothered with it in the past years of the grammar stage, either, so... *shrug*

[PeacefulChaos]

I would see this a s a sign that the program you are using is not accomplishing what you thought it would.

 

I see absolutely no reason to make a 10 year old memorize science stuff (which in many curricula consists to a large extent of vocabulary) for tests.

I would ditch the program, get books from the library, and cover science informally, based on my student's interest.

High school is early enough to get a textbook+test approach.

 

(And lest you think I am not science minded: I am a physics professor  - but the above is what I did with my kids. I have not come across any science "curriculum" that I liked.)

 

 

 

 

There is no reason it "has" to. Making a 10 y/o copy and memorize definitions is a pretty sure way to kill any interest in, and love of, science.

 

I have no idea how to do this.  We didn't do the library portion of science the way TWTM even said to - I just ended up buying a ton of books, kits, and the stuff they recommended.  I have no knowledge of what interests him about science, and we hate the library... would we just get books and read them and that's it?  Wouldn't that be sort of pointless?  (I'm not trying to be difficult lol.  I feel very stressed by this whole situation.  The crying from the kid who doesn't cry sort of did me in lol)

 

That said, we could always attempt the library.  I just need to get there.  It's like a quarter of a mile from our house but I never remember to return books so we owe them like $50 in late fees.  I hate that place with a passion.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and re: the copying definitions - I remember loving it in 11th grade.  It was like the easiest science ever.  :D  Anatomy class was my favorite: either dissecting or definitions, every single day.  :D  (yeah, as a 15-16 year old I probably viewed definitions much differently than a 10 year old, not even taking the personality difference into account)  :D

Edited December 30, 2015 by PeacefulChaos

[Carol in Cal.]

Wait, there is a fallacy here.  

 

Of course you know whether he learned stuff.  You know by conversation, and you know at much greater depth than a stupid test would give you.

 

Furthermore, why do they need grades at this point?

 

In high school you need grades.  If you want to get into a brick and mortar school you need grades.  Other than that, you can teach to mastery and move on, happily gradefree.

 

I would like to note that academics served me well all my life, but LEARNING is what really served me well.  You can make sure that they learn without going through all of this stuff that is again mostly for teachers of large numbers of students who don't really know their students well.  Are you really going to flunk your 4th grader for not being able to handle a test on a middle school book?  That really isn't an accurate view of him, is it?

[regentrude]

It's just that giving a grade I feel like I need tests, if they are offered, at least in some subjects.  Language Arts - unnecessary.  History - unnecessary.  Pretty much everything else - unnecessary.  But if they aren't taking a test in science, I don't know how to determine whether or not the material is sinking in.  

If I didn't have tests to help grade with (looking forward, not in 4th grade), what would I use?  Just participation?  Labs?  Etc?

 

 

You work with your child every day. You know what he knows about science - because you talk to him. That alone should give you a pretty good idea.

You can ask for tangible output that does not have to be tests:

• have him read about a topic and write a report about what he learned
• have him research a topic and give an oral presentation with powerpoint visuals
• have him make a poster about a science topic
• teach mom or dad about a topic

That's what I had my kids do, and it was infinitely more fun than taking tests.

 

Lastly, there is the question why one would give grades in 4th grade anyway.

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[PeacefulChaos]

Astro doesn't get grades in the report card sense.  I just grade his test because it seems like the thing to do - why take a test if you're not going to go over what they get wrong and give them a grade on it?

 

So, no, I definitely wouldn't flunk him on anything.  I'm just trying to decide if I should drop his tests or switch him to doing something else altogether.

 

 

But I already explained about the rest of the grading for my 6th grader.  That's non-negotiable.  I'm pretty easy on his grades, just trying to, like I said, get him used to even being graded, since he never has been before.  :D

 

 

 

 

Do people really have conversations about science?  When?  We only talk about it while we're actually doing science lol, and then most of the time Link answers all the questions and Astro just listens.  But we don't talk about science - or school subjects at all, for that matter - outside of when we're actually doing them.  

[regentrude]

 

Oh, and re: the copying definitions - I remember loving it in 11th grade.  It was like the easiest science ever.   :D  Anatomy class was my favorite: either dissecting or definitions, every single day.

 

But it is not science.

It is establishing a vocabulary that allows us to communicate about science.

 

Memorizing anatomical terms is not science. Analyzing and understanding why the organs function the way they do is science.

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[PeacefulChaos]

I just meant the science class.  It was the best science class I ever had.  

[regentrude]

Do people really have conversations about science?  When?  We only talk about it while we're actually doing science lol, and then most of the time Link answers all the questions and Astro just listens.  But we don't talk about science - or school subjects at all, for that matter - outside of when we're actually doing them.  

 

Sure, people do.

 

You're doing Earth science, right? That comes up all.the.time - I remember conversations with my kids about Earth science since when they were toddlers!

When we're outside hiking, all those questions came up:

Why does this rock look like this?

Why does the cliff have stripes?

Where does the sand come from?

Why is there a fossil in this rock?

Why is this stone so light? Looks like there are little air bubbles inside?

Why does it drip here? Where does the water come from?

Look, the stream was just there and now it is gone. And over there it reappears. Wow. I wonder why that is.

How come there is this arch? How did this natural bridge form? What is the difference between the two?

What is a tornado? When do they arise? What does the weather have to be like?

How is a hurricane different? Why do hurricanes start over the ocean? Can it get to where we are?

 

Earth science is THE most tangible science for kids to chat about - because the phenomena are so easy to observe.

 

ETA: And then there are stories and history and science comes up there, too: can't talk about Pompeij without discussing volcanoes.

 

We always talked about "school subjects" - because those are interesting things! Don't you talk about what books you read or documentaries you've seen?  Don't your kids go "Mom, listen to this cool thing I read!" or "Dad, did you know that...?"

My kids loved to share what they discovered and learned - but then, we avoided using scripted "curriculum" that made school "schoolish". They just read books. And then they loved to share what they read about, or what thoughts and insights they had. The best conversations were usually over dinner or while hiking - not during designated "school" times.

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[stutterfish]

Agreed. Doing science like this as a child would have totally killed the joy for me.

 

Also, coming from the UK, I've never really understood the US obsession with learning lists of vocab and definitions. Isn't that what conversation is for? Chatting together about a subject seems, to me, a much better measure of finding out what a child understands about a subject than testing him/her :)

I would see this a s a sign that the program you are using is not accomplishing what you thought it would.

 

I see absolutely no reason to make a 10 year old memorize science stuff (which in many curricula consists to a large extent of vocabulary) for tests.

I would ditch the program, get books from the library, and cover science informally, based on my student's interest.

High school is early enough to get a textbook+test approach.

 

(And lest you think I am not science minded: I am a physics professor - but the above is what I did with my kids. I have not come across any science "curriculum" that I liked.)

 

 

There is no reason it "has" to. Making a 10 y/o copy and memorize definitions is a pretty sure way to kill any interest in, and love of, science.

Edited December 30, 2015 by stutterfish

[PeacefulChaos]

Sure, people do.

 

You're doing Earth science, right? That comes up all.the.time - I remember conversations with my kids about Earth science since when they were toddlers!

When we're outside hiking, all those questions came up:

Why does this rock look like this?

Why does the cliff have stripes?

Where does the sand come from?

Why is there a fossil in this rock?

Why is this stone so light? Looks like there are little air bubbles inside?

Why does it drip here? Where does the water come from?

Look, the stream was just there and now it is gone. And over there it reappears. Wow. I wonder why that is.

How come there is this arch? How did this natural bridge form? What is the difference between the two?

What is a tornado? When do they arise? What does the weather have to be like?

How is a hurricane different? Why do hurricanes start over the ocean? Can it get to where we are?

 

Earth science is THE most tangible science for kids to chat about - because the phenomena are so easy to observe.

 

ETA: And then there are stories and history and science comes up there, too: can't talk about Pompeij without discussing volcanoes.

 

This never occurred to me as talking about science.  But yeah, these things have come up forever.  I guess I thought 'talking about science' had to literally mean talking about exactly what was gone over in the science book today/this week/whatever.  

[myfunnybunch]

You say you hate that note-taking, etc. "has to" happen now. It doesn't, not in 4th grade. Clearly, it's not working. Stop.

 

Reading science books IS the point. What regentrude is describing is the difference between learning to do science and learning to do school. It doesn't have to be the library. Buy or borrow books. Explore websites. Use online programs that are exploration-focused, and create your own science notebook pages by writing down and sketching what you did, saw, learned.

 

I do mean to be encouraging, but direct. Teach the kid you have. The tears and abrupt change are telling you he's not ready. We did the above through 8th grade. High school ds is sailing through his formal science program, with tests and note-taking, because he's ready for it and has a solid science foundation.

 

A quick note: If retention of information seems to be an overall problem, not related only to science tests, this might be something to look into. But teaching to strengths while shelving what's not working helps bring the learning back to the subject.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

Do people really have conversations about science?  When?  We only talk about it while we're actually doing science lol, and then most of the time Link answers all the questions and Astro just listens.  But we don't talk about science - or school subjects at all, for that matter - outside of when we're actually doing them.  

It's possible that Astro is not really engaged in this science approach.

 

The book is too old for him, and he is not involved in class discussions so to speak.

 

I think that you need to get him engaged somehow.  The testing won't do it.  You have to get him talking about the material or engaging with it in written or presented form somehow.  Or you can just settle for exposure (he's still young enough that that's a valid possibility, although I wouldn't prefer it) or you can separate them.  

[regentrude]

This never occurred to me as talking about science.  But yeah, these things have come up forever.  I guess I thought 'talking about science' had to literally mean talking about exactly what was gone over in the science book today/this week/whatever.  

 

But the examples I listed ARE exactly what earth science is about: finding answers to the "why" questions! That's the whole point of it.

No, I would not want to talk about what is in the science textbook- that is just dull and boring!

 

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

In high school you need grades. If you want to get into a brick and mortar school you need grades. Other than that, you can teach to mastery and move on, happily gradefree.

:iagree: I did get away with assigning grades to my 6th grader for high school applications because the ones we look at take ISEE, SSAT, SAT or ACT scores.

Astro doesn't get grades in the report card sense. I just grade his test because it seems like the thing to do - why take a test if you're not going to go over what they get wrong and give them a grade on it?

 

You could go over what is wrong on the tests without assigning a grade to it. DS11 did K12 earth science in 4th grade at the online charter. His grades just prove he is a good test taker and nothing else.

 

ETA:

We talk about earth science while hiking and on road trips.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Arcadia

[PeacefulChaos]

I think my biggest obstacle here is understanding when it's catering to a kid negatively and when it's catering to a kid positively.

 

 

I think that dropping tests would be a positive.  

 

 

ETA: to clarify, I think this is thinking leftover from PS that I didn't know I still had.  I went to PS and loved it, hated the thought of HSing, couldn't figure out why anyone would ruin their child that way, etc, etc, and I *thought* I didn't have any of that thinking leftover.  I'm wondering if this isn't that.  

I've seriously never, in the 5 years we've been homeschooling, had anything that actually made me feel like *I* really was ruining something for my child.  I mean, yeah, he didn't like learning to read, and we tried about a million ways to do it while trying not to put any pressure on him until it clicked, but that never made me actually feel like I was doing something wrong.  But this just feels wrong to me.  I've literally been crying for like 30 minutes.  And true, I do have a kidney stone today so I'm a little loopy on pain meds but yeah.  I've never felt like a failure about any aspect of their schooling before.  

 

On the upside, I didn't know the textbook was written for 6th-8th, so it makes me feel not-too-bad about the few words he stumbles over in the book when we're reading aloud.  

Edited December 30, 2015 by PeacefulChaos

[Bluegoat]

I would ditch the tests and probably the book - clearly they aren't working.

 

But if you want to use the book, I would proably have him narrate the material in some way instead of the tests.  Just tell you what it is about, or maybe do a short report, whatever. 

[regentrude]

I think my biggest obstacle here is understanding when it's catering to a kid negatively and when it's catering to a kid positively.

 

I don't see it as "catering to".

Learning has to be age appropriate. Before high school, anything that gets the child excited about, and interested in, content subjects is positive.

And most science curricula accomplish the opposite.

Edited December 30, 2015 by regentrude

[PeacefulChaos]

I don't see it as "catering to".

Learning has to be age appropriate. Before high school, anything that gets the child excited about, and interested in, content subjects is positive.

And most science curricula accomplish the opposite.

Did you see my eta?  I expounded on my thought process.  I think that catering to a kid can be done positively - I mean, we cater to all different things for all different reasons, and that isn't inherently bad.  

[Faithr]

I firmly believe kids can unschool science at that age.  We never did anything but fun stuff, experiments, museums, demonstrations, discussions, videos, nature hikes, etc.  We'd get them kits for Christmas and birthdays so they did things like make a battery out of a lemon, etc.  My older three all participated in the homeschool science fair a few times.  But they liked working on projects.  In high school we do the formal textbook and lab stuff - all my kids have done just fine getting Bs and As (these were co-op classes; I didn't teach them) even though we are not science-y.  

 

Anyway, it sounds to me like it isn't so much a science thing as a how to study and take a test thing.  So if you want to continue to be formal about science why not work backwards.  Go to a test he already took and use it to learn how to take tests.  What did they consider important and ask about on it?  Did he expect that?  It might be that he remembers things very generally and the science tests asks them very particularly - so he needs to hone in on the details.  

 

I really am unschooly about this stuff at your son's age, but I know a lot of people are too uncomfortable with being that relaxed.  I get that.  But if you are going to be more formal, it probably is wise to teach him how to learn formally.  So I think I would do a mini-lesson on how to take these tests.  That might make him feel empowered.  He might have a lightbulb moment where he realizes how he can do better on them.  And that will make things more hopeful and less disheartening for him.  

[ikslo]

I don't require any output from DS (3rd grade) for science or history (except map work). I buy the Professor Noggin's card game to match whatever we are learning each year, and we periodically rotate playing them so key concepts and info get dusted off now and then. They are DS' favorite subjects. No tests.

[MerryAtHope]

I didn't do ANY science tests with my oldest until 7th grade, and none with my dd until 8th grade (and she didn't do the kind of test you'd have to study for until 9th grade Apologia Biology.). Different kids, different needs.

 

In elementary, keep it fun. Read together, explore, do experiments or projects--do you still have the Apologia Astronomy book? One of our favorite projects from there was doing a "scaled" planet walk. We chose objects to represent the planets and sun, and mapped out how far it is between them by walking and leaving an object as we walked. (The sun was a basket ball at our house, and most of the planets were seeds, nuts, or rocks). The kids marveled how the sun and 4 planets were on our street, and then it was blocks between some of the other planets. It was a lot of fun. 

 

We also kept science notebooks that year, with pictures, drawings, and notes. Astronomy would make a fun lapbook too. There are so many things you can be doing--they really don't need science tests yet. Have fun with it!

[PeacefulChaos]

If Astro could spend the year doing nothing but Snap Circuits and other 'experiment kits', I think he'd be pleased.  :lol:  (which is what the general rule is for 1st-4th, and what I plan on doing with Pink)

[Carol in Cal.]

If Astro could spend the year doing nothing but Snap Circuits and other 'experiment kits', I think he'd be pleased.   :lol:  (which is what the general rule is for 1st-4th, and what I plan on doing with Pink)

Good plan.

 

If you are reading the other book to your older one, I would have him sit in on that, but not test him on it.

[Mommy22alyns]

I wouldn't make a 10 year old 4th grader take science tests.

 

My oldest is in 7th grade now, doing Apologia General Science - this is the first time she's had science with tests.  I think her first or second one was rough, but she's doing really well now.  I think 7th grade is a good time to start science tests.

 

As far as assigning grades for subjects without concrete tests/projects - I do it all the time.  Nobody knows our kids, what they've learned, how they've participated, better than we do.  For schools, sure - one teacher can't know 30 kids that intricately.  But we can know our kids.  I have no problems assigning a grade without tests, papers, quizzes, etc.  Don't worry about that part!

Edited December 30, 2015 by Mommy22alyns

[Fardo]

If you want to keep both boys combined and keep using the same book for the rest of the year, could you have him narrate what he learnt to you in place of tests? Or like Critterfixer suggested, you could make the test open book, with yourself helping him. Having to look up the answer to questions is a great learning tool in itself. 

 

As for the lessons, if he's not enjoying copying out definitions and doesn't hate art, you could have him draw, copying the processes/diagrams/illustrations from the book. It might help him to retain things as well, if he has a picture in his mind to remember. 

Edited December 30, 2015 by Fardo

[KSinNS]

Lots of great advice here.  If you want to stick with the book you have, I'd honestly just get him to narrate the section you just read to him a la Charlotte Mason (orally). You just say, tell me about whatever you read about. If he can do it, super. If not at all, figure out how much he can do (1 paragraph, 1 page, whatever) and get him to do that. Then chat about what he remembers, and don't mention the stuff he doesn't. You'll know what he's getting, or not, build some great verbal skills, and help him learn to remember what he reads in a totally low stress environment. Kids don't always remember what the textbook writer thinks they should, but they often come up with some amazing ideas that way. Big brother adds in what he remembers, chat about that, and science lesson + review is done. 

[KSinNS]

Fardo and I just crossposted same idea! Great minds think alike!

[PeacefulChaos]

Thank you everyone!!

 

I think that going forward, we will definitely drop the tests, at least in the traditional sense. I think I'll take the idea of doing it open book AND with me and run with it.

[JanetC]

Question: Is the book at the older child's level or the younger child's? It may be just at the wrong level for him.

 

I think you have conclusively proven that copying definitions to a notebook is not the way this child learns science. I would stop copying in the notebook and try other approaches:

 

Visual learning: Create a diagram of the concept, build a playdough model, learn from modes other than text.

 

Repeated practice: Copy important ideas to flashcards, rather than a book. Review these continually, not just the day before the test.

 

Connected learning: Dr Nebel has an analogy that before you hang the new concept ("hat") you need to "shine the peg." Don't just dive into the next section without making sure underlying concepts are sound. For example, if today's chapter is about the phases of the moon, a peg that might need to be shined before starting the lesson is - "What is the difference between a rotation and an orbit?" Science builds one concept on another, so make sure your foundations are there before moving on. Similarly, don't end the lesson until you are sure the hat is secure on the peg. "When the moon is full -where are the earth and moon relative to the sun. Let's draw it or act it out with balls."

 

You may want to review with the struggling child separately before calling the older child over for the new material.

 

 

[Targhee]

Astro doesn't get grades in the report card sense. I just grade his test because it seems like the thing to do - why take a test if you're not going to go over what they get wrong and give them a grade on it?

 

 

As a learning tool, a formative assessment. It helps you see what you need to work on, what you have learned already too. Then you work on what still needs work. If you're not giving a report card grade why have a test grade? Just mark wrong answers and then go over the information that was missed together.

 

Do people really have conversations about science? When? We only talk about it while we're actually doing science lol, and then most of the time Link answers all the questions and Astro just listens. But we don't talk about science - or school subjects at all, for that matter - outside of when we're actually doing them.

Talking about school subjects, pulling them in to our extra-curricular lives, is what gives context and meaning to what we are learning. Having meaning for what we do (not just 'we do school to learn' or 'to prepare for later') gives a sense of purpose. Purpose makes the task more enjoyable and increases internal motivation to do well.

 

We talk about science all the time! I have a Pinterest board for each kid and I pin scientific articles or science related news (sometimes just pictures for littlest) that I think they will like. For example I just pinned an article about the newly named and discovered Ninja Lanternshark for DS - he loves sharks! I recently pinned a Boston Dynamics video of some of their robots reined up liked reindeer and pulling a sleigh for oldest DD who is into robotics. These become talking points.

 

And we share other things too - we shared a poster of the hero cycle archetypes using Lego LOTR for dd who loves LOTR and was learning about the hero cycle, we make math jokes, we laugh at and correct humorous grammar mistakes we find in print, we draw analogies or make allusions to historical and mythical figures when watching movies and reading books (and even playing games)... I guess we sound a little nerdy, but this is an important part of our home life, and we'd be doing it even if the kids were in public school.

[RootAnn]

I see you already have a plan, but just adding on here...

 

Do people really have conversations about science?  When?  We only talk about it while we're actually doing science lol, and then most of the time Link answers all the questions and Astro just listens.  But we don't talk about science - or school subjects at all, for that matter - outside of when we're actually doing them.  

 

My kids tell their dad at the dinner table something they learned or did that day. Conversations about science, history, or literature happen at meals at our house, especially if we didn't get to them earlier.

 

I'd like to encourage you to NOT test Astro at all. Have him pick something he found interesting about what you guys covered in science to talk about with you guys at the dinner (or lunch or breakfast) table. See if he has any questions about it. If you know, answer the question. If you don't know, everyone go look it up later together. If he has questions while you are doing science, write them down right then. Look up the answers together when the official lesson is done.

 

DS#1's science this year is interest-led. DS tells me what he's interested in learning about & we check out books from the library. We read them together. Once per week, he writes something up about what he learned and draws a picture. He's learned a ton already this year and remembered more than I do because he really, really likes what we're doing. Because he's the one driving it.

[RoundAbout]

I think regentrude pretty much summed it up. 

Personally I don't see any need for a formal science curriculum at that age.  And the idea of graded tests in home education baffles me.  We have done no formal science and DS has a pretty impressive background of science knowledge just doing the following:

-Reading science books

-Watching Magic School Bus and NOVA documentaries

-Listening to NPR's Science Friday casually 

-Visiting Science Museums and other field trips

-Going to Ranger talks in State and National Parks when we're camping
-Bird watching and nature studies

-Answering questions, using the internet as a resource when we don't know

Read, think, talk.  That's pretty much it.  I don't see how memorizing vocabulary and taking a test builds the kind of connections that are going to lead to long term retention and a mindset of curiosity and inquiry.  

Maybe it's because I have an unschooly streak, but IMHO there are only a few critical skills that need to be pushed in the elementary years regardless of the child's inclinations: reading, writing, basic math. Everything else is just a nice to have and I can't think of any content subject that is worth killing a child's natural love of learning at that age.   

[PeacefulChaos]

Again, thank you, everyone, for your opinions.

 

I've already decided what we will be doing.

 

I have to wonder if people realize just how condescending some of the statements are. Was the desperation in my OP not evident enough? Did it seem like it was okay to 'kick me while I was down'?

 

I highly doubt anyone loves criticism, and on a normal day I can handle it. But on a highly emotional day like yesterday, when I even admitted that I'd already been crying about it, some responses, while holding pieces of helpfulness, were still harsh.

 

Maybe it wasn't intentional. Maybe no one realized that I really was sitting at the computer bawling my eyes out.

I'm sure no one intended to make me feel like an idiot or like I was ruining my kid. At least I certainly hope not.

Edited December 31, 2015 by PeacefulChaos

[Faithr]

Oh dear!  I hope I didn't offend you!  It wasn't my intention at all.  Sometimes the darn internet makes things sound harsh.  Anyway, forgive me if my response sounded bad.  I wish you a happy new year and joy in your homeschool endeavors!

[frogger]

Did you see my eta?  I expounded on my thought process.  I think that catering to a kid can be done positively - I mean, we cater to all different things for all different reasons, and that isn't inherently bad.  

 

 

I'm sorry you had such a bad day. I do hope you are feeling better. 

 

 

I do believe when regentrude was responding to you she was just trying to encourage you to not feel like you were catering and that you didn't have to in anyway feel guilty about it. If that makes sense. I'm glad you feel like you have a sense of direction now. 

[MerryAtHope]

I think my biggest obstacle here is understanding when it's catering to a kid negatively and when it's catering to a kid positively.

 

 

I think that dropping tests would be a positive.  

 

 

ETA: to clarify, I think this is thinking leftover from PS that I didn't know I still had.  I went to PS and loved it, hated the thought of HSing, couldn't figure out why anyone would ruin their child that way, etc, etc, and I *thought* I didn't have any of that thinking leftover.  I'm wondering if this isn't that.  

I've seriously never, in the 5 years we've been homeschooling, had anything that actually made me feel like *I* really was ruining something for my child.  I mean, yeah, he didn't like learning to read, and we tried about a million ways to do it while trying not to put any pressure on him until it clicked, but that never made me actually feel like I was doing something wrong.  But this just feels wrong to me.  I've literally been crying for like 30 minutes.  And true, I do have a kidney stone today so I'm a little loopy on pain meds but yeah.  I've never felt like a failure about any aspect of their schooling before.  

 

On the upside, I didn't know the textbook was written for 6th-8th, so it makes me feel not-too-bad about the few words he stumbles over in the book when we're reading aloud.  

 

So sorry to hear you are hurting, physically and emotionally. I think you are on the right track, seeing that the tests are just too much right now for your 4th grader and realizing the text book is advanced. You definitely are NOT a failure, and are obviously a caring mom who's looking for the best way to teach her kids. I hope you heal soon from your kidney stone, those are so painful.

 

If Astro could spend the year doing nothing but Snap Circuits and other 'experiment kits', I think he'd be pleased.   :lol:  (which is what the general rule is for 1st-4th, and what I plan on doing with Pink)

 

LOVE this! I tried to interest my kids in Snap Circuits, but they didn't really "take." They are such a good learning tool!

I have to wonder if people realize just how condescending some of the statements are. Was the desperation in my OP not evident enough? Did it seem like it was okay to 'kick me while I was down'?

 

I highly doubt anyone loves criticism, and on a normal day I can handle it. But on a highly emotional day like yesterday, when I even admitted that I'd already been crying about it, some responses, while holding pieces of helpfulness, were still harsh.

 

Maybe it wasn't intentional. Maybe no one realized that I really was sitting at the computer bawling my eyes out.

I'm sure no one intended to make me feel like an idiot or like I was ruining my kid. At least I certainly hope not.

 

(((Hugs))) I honestly didn't read the posts that way, and certainly didn't mean my post that way if it came across as condescending. It's so hard to communicate tone on the internet! I truly meant to be encouraging and offer our family's experiences and overall thoughts/ideas in the hope that they would help or at least let you know that delaying tests can still work well.

[lmrich]

I think it is important to help your child learn how to study for a test. My dd struggles with studying. She needs to overstudy so she feels confident. Can you quiz him or make games for him to complete that review the material. Regardless of our philosophies of whether the test is an accurate account of your son's knowledge, he lives in a world where testing is rampant; it would be helpful for him to learn how to study for a test. 

[Ellie]

It's just that giving a grade I feel like I need tests, if they are offered, at least in some subjects.  Language Arts - unnecessary.  History - unnecessary.  Pretty much everything else - unnecessary.  But if they aren't taking a test in science, I don't know how to determine whether or not the material is sinking in.  

 

If I didn't have tests to help grade with (looking forward, not in 4th grade), what would I use?  Just participation?  Labs?  Etc?  As it is I'm not counting Link's test toward much of his grade (tests are 10% right now) compared to what it is in college.  I know he's got several years, but I'm always thinking ahead to try to get them as prepared for the future as possible.

 

Plus, Apologia is definitely what we'll be using for the upper levels and they have tests, and I really don't want to skip them.  

 

 

Like I said, I've never tested on anything else.  The kids never take any tests in the grammar stage other than math, which they always do great on.  

 

 

That all said, I don't necessarily have a problem dropping the tests from Astro, other than just that then there'd be no way to know whether or not he's actually learned anything.  Granted, I never bothered with it in the past years of the grammar stage, either, so... *shrug*

 

You can't have discussions with him about stuff he has studied? You think tests really, truly, accurately measure what children have learned? 

 

When he gets to high school-level, then you can test. Before then, it's just not that important.

 

[PeacefulChaos]

Edited OP.  All is well, all is fixed.

 

 

Thanks!!  :)