Declining Student Resilience - has this article been discussed yet?

[creekland]

My school e-mail had this article for me to read:

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/freedom-learn/201509/declining-student-resilience-serious-problem-colleges

 

Declining Student Resilience - a Serious Problem for Colleges

 

I'm not sure if it's been discussed here yet or not.  The problem has been known for a bit - or at least I've seen a bit about the problems of helicopter parenting.  The big question is how in the world do we stop it?

 

I know we've encouraged our kids to step out from a young age.  They've spent nights/weeks away and weren't connected by cell phones.  We encouraged pure play - both outside and inside.  We've also shared our lives - the good, bad, and ugly.  We didn't shelter them from the world either.  Even then, sometimes I wonder if we interceded too much at times.

 

At school I definitely see younger examples of students like those in the article.  It makes me wonder if there's anything I can do about it.

 

Who's going to rule the world if we raise such fragile and dependent adults?

 

Is our new "gentle parenting" causing more problems than it helps?  (I'm not advocating abuse.)

 

Obviously, safety nets for youngsters stop some from falling through the cracks.  How do we keep those, but still encourage those who don't need them to not use them?

 

Just musing this morning.  Any thoughts?  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well I guess I don't come from that world.  The world of heavy parental involvement.  My parents were not much involved in my life.  I am more so involved with my kids' lives, but they are 10 and 13.  And I homeschool them so I do have to take on some roles above and beyond the role of parent. 

 

One thing I do recall though that kind of always rubbed me the wrong way was the "talk" they had with the seniors in high school. It went something like: "You need to start acting like an adult now, but we aren't going to give you any freedom."   Maybe this is part of the problem?

 

But again, I don't really come from that world. 

 

 

[mom31257]

Schools are guilty of helicoptering, too. Schools and teachers are consistently being targeted for what they are doing wrong when education is failing, placing little responsibility on the students or parents. With jobs on the line, I can see why school systems want to keep the kids happy to reduce drop outs, failing students, and such because all those affect the numbers, and thus the funding. 

 

We also live in a society that believes self-esteem comes from continual praise and never being criticized. I am continually seeing parenting posts on Facebook and places about positive parenting.  I'm sorry, but when my kids are making bad choices, acting in a way that is detrimental to themselves or others, you bet I'm going to tell them it's wrong and they shouldn't do it. There is nothing pretty about disobedience, rudeness, or the like. I love my kids too much to allow them to be awful while it is still in my control. 

Edited December 3, 2015 by mom31257

[SparklyUnicorn]

What boggles my mind is that a lot of adults (older adults) are not much better.  I haven't taken a college course in awhile (20 years).  I'm taking one now at a CC.  Most of the people in the class are adults out and about in the world who have had some experiences.  So many of them cannot get their act together.  Maybe they are stretched too thin.  I really don't know.   They can't meet deadlines.  The instructor can send out 100 reminders and hand hold to the max and still several act like they didn't see that one coming.  I'm looking forward to the class being over.  He has watered down stuff so much in response to so many people just not putting in any effort that I'm not all that interested anymore. 

 

 

[creekland]

Schools are guilty of helicoptering, too.  

 

I absolutely agree.  It's part of why I've been thinking about what to do/teach differently at school (if anything - I already expect different things from kids).

 

What boggles my mind is that a lot of adults (older adults) are not much better.  I haven't taken a college course in awhile (20 years).  I'm taking one now at a CC.  Most of the people in the class are adults out and about in the world who have had some experiences.  So many of them cannot get their act together.  Maybe they are stretched too thin.  I really don't know.   They can't meet deadlines.  The instructor can send out 100 reminders and hand hold to the max and still several act like they didn't see that one coming.  I'm looking forward to the class being over.  He has watered down stuff so much in response to so many people just not putting in any effort that I'm not all that interested anymore. 

 

This is why I see it as a more major problem.  

[kewb]

I do see some serious special snowflake status amongst many of the teens I come into contact with. Some of it is due to the self-centeredness that is part of this stage of growing up.  I think most of them will get to the other side of growing up okay. I don't see an increase in getting counseling for every day life as a bad thing either.  Better to ask for help if you need it.

 

I have tried and tried to instill some grit in my kids.  I am guilty of my share of helicopter parenting.  

These past 2 years of high school have been more about teaching my oldest time management skills and addressing his executive function deficits then anything else.  I have stressed repeatedly that I won't be there with him in college.  Most professors do not care if you do the work or not. They give you a syllabus which basically tells you how to get an A.  It is on you to do the work.  You have to be in charge of your education.

That said, he does fear failure.  He will take the easy path if it means success vs. trying to stretch himself.  When trying something new he likes what seems to me an excessive amount of hand holding.

I worry how he will do in college next year.

Edited December 3, 2015 by kewb

[creekland]

Thinking of school (or even my own guys), some need extra support or they'd fall through the cracks.  I don't think it's wrong to give that help.  Falling through the cracks isn't pretty.

 

Maybe it's creating more dependent adults, but OTOH, they are reaching adulthood.

 

Are we hurting those who would succeed anyway or just helping those we otherwise wouldn't see because they'd have fallen?

 

I'm going to have to catch up on this later.  Today's plan is outside with the ponies - mainly pulling cockleburrs from manes and tails.  :glare:  It was so tempting to post a thread (Tom Sawyer style) seeing if others wanted to help.   :coolgleamA:   My farm hands are still at college (or married).  Weaning and halter breaking are also on the agenda for this week...

[mom31257]

Thinking of school (or even my own guys), some need extra support or they'd fall through the cracks. I don't think it's wrong to give that help. Falling through the cracks isn't pretty.

 

Maybe it's creating more dependent adults, but OTOH, they are reaching adulthood.

 

Are we hurting those who would succeed anyway or just helping those we otherwise wouldn't see because they'd have fallen?

 

I'm going to have to catch up on this later. Today's plan is outside with the ponies - mainly pulling cockleburrs from manes and tails. :glare: It was so tempting to post a thread (Tom Sawyer style) seeing if others wanted to help. :coolgleamA: My farm hands are still at college (or married). Weaning and halter breaking are also on the agenda for this week...

I am not against schools helping where it is needed, but that is not what I mean.

 

Dh has taught in 3 public high schools during the last 9 years (was in private schools before those). He has been told not to give zeros and that it was HIS responsibility to make sure absent kids made up the work, not to write kids up for being tardy, to retest a student who scored TOO HIGH on something so that she could score higher later in the year to show growth, not to give students a 67-69 for a semester average and to find some way to get the score to passing, etc.

 

To me all those actions are to make the school look good. The problem is it sets these teens up to expect that kind of treatment everywhere. When they hit the real world and fail a class or get fired from a job because they aren't punctual, they don't know what to do.

Edited December 3, 2015 by mom31257

[Tsuga]

I find it fascinating that baby boomers were called revolutionary for demanding the world be re-shaped to fit their new morality, but students today are called coddled. "You have to accept our reality!"

 

I think young people are more sensitive and demanding than older people.

 

I think that way, way more people are attending college now and no, they haven't had the opportunity to go out, get jobs, etc. because the world has been seen as "too dangerous" but who created that world? Who created that mood? Who created that situation?

 

My step kids take the public bus to school or walk or ride bikes. My daughter has walked to the bus stop alone since she was seven. Our kids, I believe, are very resilient, but that doesn't mean they have the same grade scale in their head as I did. (Though actually... they do, they get the same grades... the same test scores...)

 

Maybe because I'm GenX, so we are already a different generation, different universe, but I just don't see this going on. Yeah, among the extremely posh families, but wasn't it always that way? I don't know. My kids' lives are a bit more free than mine was (my mom has some social anxiety issues and was paranoid about kidnapping) and they have more opportunities but life goes on in much the same way. Circle time, lesson, rotations, recess, hands-on work, lunch, lesson, specialist (music, art, library), bus home, walk home once you're about eight, do homework, mom/stepdad comes home, do a chore or go to something (we just had TV, they have stuff to do, no, my mom did not engage in highly motivating educational activities on a daily basis after a 9 hour shift at the hospital, someone call CPS), blah blah blah.

 

Life goes on.

 

Either my kids are exceptionally well-poised for the future or this is all kind of an upper-class problem.

 

And we aren't even poor.

 

 

 

He has been told not to give zeros My stepson wants to know where this school is LOL... he has had his share of zeroes and that it was HIS responsibility to make sure absent kids made up the work, yeah wouldn't THAT be nice not to write kids up for being tardy, Haha lol nope not here... kids have tardies to retest a student who scored TOO HIGH on something so that she could score higher later in the year to show growth, uh, make the tests harder? That's what they do for our kids not to give students a 67-69 for a semester average and to find some way to get the score to passing, etc. They would probably give them another chance to pass, yes, because the consequences for failing are pretty dire. But that includes re-taking the class.

 

[The Girls' Mom]

I see this all the time now that I'm back in school.  Students that expect their professors to be their tutors.  Students that get mad and throw a fit the last week of class because their professor didn't sit down with them outside of class and office hours to drag them through the course.  Students that are failing a fairly easy class for the second time because they can't be bothered to study (but are very active in all sorts of clubs and activities around campus).  Students that automatically assume that if a class is hard then the professor is a jerk and a bad teacher.  And like it was mentioned above, these aren't just the students that are fresh out of high school.  Some of these people are my age.

It makes me worry.  

[DawnM]

I do worry about my kids.   But that is because I have lived such a different life than they have.  I went to boarding school at age 8, no phones, no internet.  I was shipped off to the USA at age 18 alone, no parents, but it didn't really phase me because I had flown around the world alone by age 16.   The life of an MK is very different.  

 

My kids can't even fly from NC to AZ alone.......I wish I were kidding.  They have gone with groups (youth group trips, church trips) but never alone.   My kids have gone on scout trips with no technology, etc....

 

But overall, they have lead a far more sheltered life than I have.  

 

More but I need to go drive carpool

[creekland]

Maybe because I'm GenX, so we are already a different generation, different universe, but I just don't see this going on. Yeah, among the extremely posh families, but wasn't it always that way? I don't know. 

 

It's definitely going on academically more than it should.  I've seen the difference in high school just in the 15/16 years I've been there. I think you're right that it's always been there with some wealthy families, but I think it's expanded.

 

How much it carries over to the work world, I'm not sure.

 

I see this all the time now that I'm back in school.  Students that expect their professors to be their tutors.  Students that get mad and throw a fit the last week of class because their professor didn't sit down with them outside of class and office hours to drag them through the course.  Students that are failing a fairly easy class for the second time because they can't be bothered to study (but are very active in all sorts of clubs and activities around campus).  Students that automatically assume that if a class is hard then the professor is a jerk and a bad teacher.  And like it was mentioned above, these aren't just the students that are fresh out of high school.  Some of these people are my age.

 

It makes me worry.  

 

Definitely scary.

 

I do worry about my kids.   But that is because I have lived such a different life than they have.  I went to boarding school at age 8, no phones, no internet.  I was shipped off to the USA at age 18 alone, no parents, but it didn't really phase me because I had flown around the world alone by age 16.   The life of an MK is very different.  

 

My kids can't even fly from NC to AZ alone.......I wish I were kidding.  They have gone with groups (youth group trips, church trips) but never alone.   My kids have gone on scout trips with no technology, etc....

 

But overall, they have lead a far more sheltered life than I have.  

 

We spent a bit of time figuring out how to try to have our kids be independent and world-minded.  We let them do things from a young age, but around here, no one complains to CPS when that happens.  We traveled.  We don't do expensive toys or mega Christmases/birthdays.  Mine worked on our farm doing both the hard and mundane chores and with their dad doing engineering fieldwork.  In general, we're happy with how they turned out, but I don't know that we can take credit.  It's just what happened.

[Pawz4me]

Meh.  Not impressed at all.

 

It seems to me the author of that article has taken an extremely complex issue and tried to narrow it down to bad parenting.

 

I'm 52 and there were plenty of anxiety and other mental health issues among my peers when I was in school.  I was one of them!  But back then it really wasn't recognized or talked about.  We simply had no choice but to deal with it.  Or not.  Some did and some didn't.  They escaped through alcohol or drugs or suicide.

 

The author also fails IMO in not taking into account how much more stressful things are for kids nowadays.  When I was in high school it was back in the dark ages when one could opt to not go to college or technical school and still reasonably expect to earn a decent living that would provide a middle class lifestyle.  That's of course not true now.  Kids are bombarded with the message from kindergarten on that everything is high stakes and going to college (and often THE right one) is critical to being successful.  So by high school they've learned to do what they have to do to succeed.  Is it any wonder by the time they get to college they're afraid to fail?  Afraid to take risks?  Why should they?  The last thing they need is to damage their GPA by taking a challenging course if they don't need it.  They've been taught well by our educational system and our current world/economic situation that external measures of success are all that matter.  I'm having an incredibly difficult time grasping how the author can possibly blame that one on helicopter parenting!

 

With all the pressures kids face today -- the pressure to pass (often with high scores, not just pass) the never ending tests, to get into the "right" university, to pick a career that won't disappear in ten years, to figure out how to pay for their education, and living in a time when there is (thankfully) increased awareness of mental health issues -- IMO it's ridiculously simplistic to blame it all or even mostly on helicopter parenting.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Pawz4me

[Onceuponatime]

I am just finishing a cc public speaking class and it was a joke. At the beginning of class, the teacher gave a syllabus that looked challenging and would have taken some effort on my part. She didn't follow it from day one. She was ill prepared for classes, changed the assignments frequently, messed up the technology for the mandatory online portion, reissued an updated simplified syllabus, didn't follow it, gave a midterm that took ten minutes to an A for most of the class, and I could go on and on. The professor was my age with a PHD. But she was FUN! 😜 The youngest students loved her, the older ones like me were worried because they wanted an A on their transfer transcript, and maybe some actual skills by the end of class. She also catered to the lowest denominator and worked to get the marginal students their required C, by any means.

 

Class was let out early most days and you could miss multiple days and still be on track, of which the other students took full advantage. By last week I was in a panic, she had given no feedback on our previous speeches other than a number grade out of five or ten, and did not give a grading rubric for our most important speech. We've been told that our final exam grade is basically just a percentage point for attendance. I'm not being arrogant when I say, I think I could have done a better job teaching that class, and I hate public speaking. At our last class I finally found out I am getting an A, which doesn't give me a whole lot of satisfaction. Listening to the other students talk, and asking around, this kind of "teaching" is not uncommon. I've decide to CLEP out of as many classes as possible.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Onceuponatime

[creekland]

It seems to me the author of that article has taken an extremely complex issue and tried to narrow it down to bad parenting.

 

I'm 52 and there were plenty of anxiety and other mental health issues among my peers when I was in school.  I was one of them!  But back then it really wasn't recognized or talked about.  We simply had no choice but to deal with it.  Or not.  Some did and some didn't.  They escaped through alcohol or drugs or suicide.

 

The author also fails IMO in not taking into account how much more stressful things are for kids nowadays.  When I was in high school it was back in the dark ages when one could opt to not go to college or technical school and still reasonably expect to earn a decent living that would provide a middle class lifestyle.  That's of course not true now.  Kids are bombarded with the message from kindergarten on that everything is high stakes and going to college (and often THE right one) is critical to being successful.  So by high school they've learned to do what they have to do to succeed.  Is it any wonder by the time they get to college they're afraid to fail?  Afraid to take risks?  Why should they?  The last thing they need is to damage their GPA by taking a challenging course if they don't need it.  They've been taught well by our educational system and our current world/economic situation that external measures of success are all that matter.  I having an incredibly difficult time grasping how the author can possibly blame that one on helicopter parenting!

 

With all the pressures kids face today -- the pressure to pass (often with high scores, not just pass) the never ending tests, to get into the "right" university, to pick a career that won't disappear in ten years, to figure out how to pay for their education, and living in a time when there is (thankfully) increased awareness of mental health issues -- IMO it's ridiculously simplistic to blame it all or even mostly on helicopter parenting.

 

So you don't think parents are involved at all in trying to help their offspring survive this brave new world you described?

 

I think they are.  I don't think anyone intentionally wants to raise kids who can't manage life, but the adjustments that have been made seem to need to be tweaked.  The pressure is out there.  How does one raise kids so they can best survive it?

[Pawz4me]

So you don't think parents are involved at all in trying to help their offspring survive this brave new world you described?

 

 

 

I don't think I implied that at all.  And it doesn't seem to me to be what the article is about, either.  The point of the article isn't "is bad (helicopter) parenting responsible for some of the (supposed) issues of kids nowadays?"  Instead it seems to be definitively pointing the finger of blame at helicopter parenting as THE cause of those (supposed) issues w/o even considering any other factors.

 

And that's just not true or fair, IMO.

 

And FWIW -- I don't think I'd come close to fitting anyone's description of a helicopter parent.  I was letting my boys stay home alone before they were ten.  They never had a curfew.  I could go on, but the point is I don't think I'm reacting from a point of defensiveness.  I just think it's a really bad article.

[creekland]

Your kids are in a well run schol district. What is the poverty percent? The day here would have several interruptions for removal procedures, plus idle time while the included are at pull out.

 

It isnt an upper class problem. Its the dysfunction of poverty combined with the starving of school funding. Disengaged public school students are app 35%, by the state's own estimate. How is the school to remediate? There isnt enough funding until the district tips into Title 1. Volunteers are banned, union doesnt like them and the parents of the included want privacy from their neighbors. So, the school offers just the basics, each and every year, watches the students refuse and continue to cuss out the teacher and assault the peers, and finally the students are 18 and still cant read on the 8th grade level. Social promotion, no one fails. All you have to do is show up for headcount in the morning. The rich had the 'gentleman's c'....it wasnt given for lack of effort, but lack of ability.

 

Heigh Ho, I think you live in an exceptionally bad school district.  I work at a statistically average public school and it's nothing like you describe.  We have 37% on free or reduced lunch, so not tons, but still, more than 1 in 3.

 

If we're average, there have to be those lower than us, but there are also those higher.

 

I'll admit to having gotten a Gentleman's C in Art back in my ps days.   :coolgleamA:

 

 

I don't think I implied that at all.  And it doesn't seem to me to be what the article is about, either.  The point of the article isn't "is bad (helicopter) parenting responsible for some of the (supposed) issues of kids nowadays?"  Instead it seems to be definitively pointing the finger of blame at helicopter parenting as THE cause of those (supposed) issues w/o even considering any other factors.

 

And that's just not true or fair, IMO.

 

And FWIW -- I don't think I'd come close to fitting anyone's description of a helicopter parent.  I was letting my boys stay home alone before they were ten.  They never had a curfew.  I could go on, but the point is I don't think I'm reacting from a point of defensiveness.  I just think it's a really bad article.

 

No accusations here at all for anyone.  I'm just looking at what happens and various thoughts as to why it's happening.  I think a good part of it is parenting, but not because parents are trying to intentionally sabotage their kids.

[Murphy101]

So much to say...

 

I find it interesting that the resilience of the students is the only thing discussed in a paper where teachers and advisors are whining about how they can't handle their students....

 

But I'll skip that disconnect...

 

I don't think schools should lower their academic standards. But that means they are going to have to be give up all that government money they get by admitting students they know damn good and well are unlikely to finish their degree. I'd be curious to see the graduation rates at these schools. So many take a huge amount of money in grants and loans off students and then provide them with very little support to manage the programs. I have a problem with that bc basicly the schools are getting money and literally delivering nothing to a huge number of admitted students. I don't think that is entirely the students fault.

 

Fear of failure is everywhere these days. For good reason. We can complain about it all we want, but unless the kid is a trust fund baby, his entire family's future and his own is on the line. If he fails, he has to retake the course, which costs more money and delays making money. If he fails the program, he has to start over. Again more money, and money he and his family might not have. And make no mistake, for most students, their entire family has contributed to them going to school, banking literally in their success. And whether he fails or not, he is likely in a boatload of debt, making it even more important he succeed to have best odds of paying it off. And what schools he has to choose from are more limited than people think. And if he chooses one far from home, he has zero support network to help him get through. So I don't fault a student for asking for help every chance they can get. I do think they need coaching on HOW to ask for help and I've offered that to my kids, but many people don't know that or don't know how. For example, I think it is 100% okay for a student to bring a paper to a teacher and ask, "I really want to do well in your class, can you give me some feedback on this to let me know what kind of grade quality it is? Thanks. So if I do ___, ___, and _____ - is that more of what you are looking for in an A level paper?" I've even told them it's okay to blame home schooling. Lol "My mom just made us do it until it was excellent and learned, so I'm wanting to make sure I do the same in my college classes."

 

Not once have I ever had a kid come home and say their teacher seemed ticked off about it. They have however had teachers who:

 

Never graded a damn thing or gave any feedback beyond, "oh you're fine" even on a C GPA in the class. Which was extremely frustrating. He wasn't familiar with the content but "felt" he wasn't excelling at it but without feedback, no papers returned or gone over - nada, how was he supposed to know where he needed to improve?

 

Couldn't get to class on time, couldn't follow their own syllabus, scoffed about my kid being one of "those over achieving home schoolers".

 

Never responded to requests for assistance. No, they are not tutors, but they are supposed to teach. A student should be able to ask for help understanding a concept. That's not tutoring. And the teacher should be honest when they need more help in line with a tutor and refer them to that help. Good schools often offer free tutors. Usually upper classmen doing work study time.

 

Email the day of class, maybe right before class, about changes or things students should do, then get annoyed in class when students didn't do it. So yeah, if teachers expect prompt responses from students about things they could have managed other ways, it's fair for students to have that expectation too. For example, a teacher will email a needed document for class an hour before class. When what they should have done was have their act together way before then or print the damn thing and bring it with them. We have had a much harder time with teachers who can't plan more than 20 minutes ahead than our kids.

 

I agree students need to expect it to be hard and to have some bad grades. The problem comes when so much rides on those failures or bad grades. For example, a teacher who gives ONE paper that is work 60% of the grade. But no pressure. Uh. Yeah it doesn't work that way. Part of reducing fear of failure is that the student needs to know they can recover from it. Sure an F stinks, but they can retake the course and maybe talk with someone about why so they can make changes to do better. But if the F drops their GPA, they lose their funding to be there and can't retake that course. So yeah. For them, it's not the F they fear, it's the fear that they can't recover from it. We need to figure out how to balance this.

 

About the schools being asked to parent...

 

I don't think it is parenting my kids to expect they will have health facilities. Most campuses have their own police force for crying out loud. So yeah, if I think my family member who is away from all their family needs help, I want to know they can get it. Be it an elderly relative in a retirement community or a teen/young adult at college. Yes, some of those things are just the stress of life. But you know what we other adults do when life stresses us? We can talk to our mom, dad, brother, sister, or whatever that we have known for our entire lives. We can likely see them in person and do that. These young adults going away to college have none of that. Everything is new. There's not an established support network.

 

I do whole heartedly agree about the restriction on childhood play and free time and freedom is a contributor and I don't blame parents. It's CYA policies elsewhere that have made parents feel that way.

 

And some of the complaints examples are ...

 

Interesting.

 

For example, one counselor said a student came in distraught wanting to know what to do bc her roommate called her a bitch.

The counselor felt at 18 a student should know how to handle that and not be distraught about it.

 

Well. Idk. How would I handle someone I have to LIVE with calling me a bitch? Once? Daily? All the time and telling everyone else I am?

 

I mean really how many adults would LIVE with that without it getting ugly?

 

I admit not me. Maybe once I'd just roll my eyes. Or maybe have some choice words back about how that's not very nice and they aren't perfect either. But yeah, I'd be distraught over living every day with someone who thought I was a bitch, much less called me one. Who wouldn't want help to deal with that person?

 

And to top it off, these young adults are coming from schools that usually just play lip service to zero bully policies where their hands are tied. Can't defend themselves without getting in trouble at school but can't seem to get the school to do anything to stop it.

 

This is very rambling bc it's taken me forever to type it bc if near constant silly interruption and I need more coffee.

 

I don't want to come off as blaming the school for everything. I have plenty of horror stories from my kids about fellow students of all ages too. It's astonishing how much help good teachers offer that student refuse to avail themselves of and then call my kids over achievers for doing so. Um. Okay. We're good with that. It's one of those weird unexplainable things where it seems the students who need it the most are the least likely to use it.

[MomtoCandJ]

I see this all the time now that I'm back in school.  Students that expect their professors to be their tutors.  Students that get mad and throw a fit the last week of class because their professor didn't sit down with them outside of class and office hours to drag them through the course.  Students that are failing a fairly easy class for the second time because they can't be bothered to study (but are very active in all sorts of clubs and activities around campus).  Students that automatically assume that if a class is hard then the professor is a jerk and a bad teacher.  And like it was mentioned above, these aren't just the students that are fresh out of high school.  Some of these people are my age.

 

It makes me worry.  

 

I'm seeing this in my A&P 2 class, quite a few of the students were up in arms because we didn't have a specific study guide for the final exam. He made one that is fairly generic to appease them, I'm sure it's not good enough because it's not a "give me the answers" study guide, it's a "this is the topic this question covers so it's up to you to study this topic" study guide. He says that he hasn't made a final exam specific study guide before because this class is mainly for those going into the health care field (mainly nursing), you do really want a nurse who can't describe the basics of the urinary system? I get his point and his class is rigorous (which I like).

[Katy]

I suspect that the pendulum of helicopter parenting will swing the other way and our grand kids will be given much more freedom.  There are already high end private schools that spend most of their time in the woods, playing in creeks.  Less academic focus but still leads to better academic results.

 

I think science will increasingly show that much of the over diagnosis of our kids has to do with forcing them to sit still and not giving them the outdoor play and stimulation their brains need to focus. When your brain needs to spin you're not going to get rid of the wiggles until you spin.

 

I'm not sure boys especially should have much formal schooling until after age 8 or 9.  Kids need more play to develop resilience. Dangerous play lends itself to emotional bravery and not being afraid to fail.   Jumping off of rocks teaches you what you can handle.

[Word Nerd]

Meh.  Not impressed at all.

 

It seems to me the author of that article has taken an extremely complex issue and tried to narrow it down to bad parenting.

 

In my next post I’ll examine the research evidence suggesting that so-called “helicopter parenting†really is at the core of the problem. But I don’t blame parents, or certainly not just parents. Parents are in some ways victims of larger forces in society—victims of the continuous exhortations from “experts†about the dangers of letting kids be, victims of the increased power of the school system and the schooling mentality that says kids develop best when carefully guided and supervised by adults, and victims of increased legal and social sanctions for allowing kids into public spaces without adult accompaniment. We have become, unfortunately, a “helicopter society.â€

[Liz CA]

This could be the topic of my thesis...but trying to keep it shorter than that.

 

Some parents have lost sight of the goal of parenting which IMHO is training a young person to become independent and able to function in society by themselves. Mentally connecting here to a previous thread where people discussed that children are being told "they are special" and they are "Princesses." If you grow up thinking you are entitled to good grades - not as a result of good academic performance but rather because of your elevated status as a special person - you feel completely justified blaming faculty for less than stellar grades.

 

I fear it's going to be even worse for the next generation because we have young people growing up right now with very little conversation since we are all immersed in our digital devices. I see two year olds on cell phones or special tablets instead of playing or talking to their parents. Their brains are being wired in one direction primarily and problem solving in the real (not virtual) world is a little different and they are unaccustomed to it - to a large degree anyway. Henceforth, there is a mouse in my room. I don't know what to do. I call the police. :lol:

 

A step in the right direction would be parenting toward independence, limiting use of digital devices and teaching active problem solving skills at home, i.e. having discussions on how to solve something by considering various options and teaching a method of selecting the best option for solving the problem. Telling and reading stories that teach problem solving, clever solutions, ethical behavior and principles of integrity.

 

Soon, colleges may have to introduce "survival courses" that teach those things that we were taught during childhood.

 

There is so much more but this is the tip of the iceberg and just one aspect of a very complex issue.
 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Liz CA

[SparklyUnicorn]

People say stuff like this, but I've never actually encountered a parent like this.  Not to this extreme no. 

 

And given the fact there are a lot of families where both parents work full time, how on earth would they find the time to be so micromanaging? 

 

And where is the connection between electronic device use and level of independence or resilience? 

 

 

This could be the topic of my thesis...but trying to keep it shorter than that.

 

Some parents have lost sight of the goal of parenting which IMHO is training a young person to become independent and able to function in society by themselves. Mentally connecting here to a previous thread where people discussed that children are being told "they are special" and they are "Princesses." If you grow up thinking you are entitled to good grades - not as a result of good academic performance but rather because of your elevated status as a special person - you feel completely justified blaming faculty for less than stellar grades.

 

I fear it's going to be even worse for the next generation because we have young people growing up right now with very little conversation since we are all immersed in our digital devices. I see two year olds on cell phones or special tablets instead of playing or talking to their parents. Their brains are being wired in one direction primarily and problem solving in the real (not virtual) world is a little different and they are unaccustomed to it - to a large degree anyway. Henceforth, there is a mouse in my room. I don't know what to do. I call the police. :lol:

 

A step in the right direction would be parenting toward independence, limiting use of digital devices and teaching active problem solving skills at home, i.e. having discussions on how to solve something by considering various options and teaching a method of selecting the best option for solving the problem. Telling and reading stories that teach problem solving, clever solutions, ethical behavior and principles of integrity.

 

Soon, colleges may have to introduce "survival courses" that teach those things that we were taught during childhood.

 

There is so much more but this is the tip of the iceberg and just one aspect of a very complex issue.
 

 

[Reefgazer]

I don't disagree with a word you said here, but as a college instructor I just want to let you know that the administration pushes instructors to pass people or their contracts are in jeopardy. Pass where I work is a "C"; they don't much care about a "B" or an "A"-just a pass. This is all to say that the lowering of standards and the subsequent whining of students when they get anything less than an "A" is driven by administrative policies and not the individual teacher.

 

I am just finishing a cc public speaking class and it was a joke. At the beginning of class, the teacher gave a syllabus that looked challenging and would have taken some effort on my part. She didn't follow it from day one. She was ill prepared for classes, changed the assignments frequently, messed up the technology for the mandatory online portion, reissued an updated simplified syllabus, didn't follow it, gave a midterm that took ten minutes to an A for most of the class, and I could go on and on. The professor was my age with a PHD. But she was FUN! 😜 The youngest students loved her, the older ones like me were worried because they wanted an A on their transfer transcript, and maybe some actual skills by the end of class. She also catered to the lowest denominator and worked to get the marginal students their required C, by any means.

 

Class was let out early most days and you could miss multiple days and still be on track, of which the other students took full advantage. By last week I was in a panic, she had given no feedback on our previous speeches other than a number grade out of five or ten, and did not give a grading rubric for our most important speech. We've been told that our final exam grade is basically just a percentage point for attendance. I'm not being arrogant when I say, I think I could have done a better job teaching that class, and I hate public speaking. At our last class I finally found out I am getting an A, which doesn't give me a whole lot of satisfaction. Listening to the other students talk, and asking around, this kind of "teaching" is not uncommon. I've decide to CLEP out of as many classes as possible.

[Reefgazer]

I had two parents show up in my classroom one night (in the middle of class) to protest the "indelicate treatment" of their daughter, who couldn't handle herself in a college envrionment. I wanted to tell them why she couldn't handle herself, but managed to bite my tongue.

People say stuff like this, but I've never actually encountered a parent like this. Not to this extreme no.

 

And given the fact there are a lot of families where both parents work full time, how on earth would they find the time to be so micromanaging?

 

And where is the connection between electronic device use and level of independence or resilience?

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't disagree with a word you said here, but as a college instructor I just want to let you know that the administration pushes instructors to pass people or their contracts are in jeopardy. Pass where I work is a "C"; they don't much care about a "B" or an "A"-just a pass. This is all to say that the lowering of standards and the subsequent whining of students when they get anything less than an "A" is driven by administrative policies and not the individual teacher.

 

 

Huh weird.  My instructor said he is encouraged to make sure not everyone gets an A.  That the grade distribution should be somewhat bell shaped.  He also said that this is different in high school (he teaches high school as well).  That they are encouraged to make sure most grades are As and Bs.

[Bluegoat]

I think the phenomena is real.  I've mentioned before that I live in a university town and know quite a lot of faculty.  They have ll commented on the lack of resilience in one way or another.  It seems to be both personal and academic.

 

My overall sense in that in a few ways, we've made it hard for kids to grow into adults.  So on the one hand I think they are relatively immature when they get to university.  But I think the effect my be worse than that.  If we imagine a toddler who hasn't been allowed to develop his abilities according to his biological development, he might not just be immature - it might have much more lasting effects on his development.  Some windows of opportunity might be missed.  Maybe he would get used to his situation, inwardly resigned, say, to sitting in a pooey diaper so it was no longer really noticed.  Maybe he would begin to have  sense that he is not competent, that something bout him isn't right.

 

I think that kind of process may also be  effect with teens who are not allowed to mature.

 

I also think that this has been building up for some time - 50 years, say, give or take.  But recently it's really ramped up.

 

 

Some thoughts, in no order:

 

I don't think its the availability of support when necessary that is so much behind the academic issue, as the inability to let students fail.  I also wonder if insisting on  single path for success for all is a related problem.  When every good student is seen s someone who should be in university, I think there hs been  misunderstanding of success.

 

I think as mentioned above, telling kids to act like adults but giving no freedoms is a factor.  and, I would add significant responsibilities.  I think the fact that jobs and real work beyond school for teens has become more rare is a real problem.  Teens need to feel like they are competent to care for themselves, which in our society means to have some economic power - be it  PT job or working on the family farm.  I think a lot of kids absorb  something like learned helplessness, and while they overcome it, is harder than it needs to be.

 

I also think constant connectivity with parents, friends, and the internet creates a similar problem.  There are fewer opportunities to figure things out, to gin confidence in your ability to solve  problem, or be alone in  thing.  and the general tendency to increase the age t which kids are considered competent to do things, especially without supervision.

 

Changes in the economy that make it difficult for the young to support themselves, and put them in debt up to their eye-balls, don't help much.

 

Emotionally, we seem much less likely to let people in general struggle through something to come to terms with it.  There has been good research that suggest that emotional resilience comes from this, so by not doing it, that is not developed.   Much is trying to be kind and inclusive - for exmple, the idea that everyone needs to be invited to a party or that everyone needs a medal.  In actuality there are I think often reverse effects from this.  One is that kids soon realize they are only being included for forms sake, it doesn't indicate any personal affection or connection.  By the time they re teens, I think many are very cynical about it.

 

Secondly, they don't get to directly confront the experience of being bad at something, or not being likable, or holding an unpopular point of view.  Sometimes working through these things revels to us that we have  problem, or we are being too sensitive, or the issue is trivial, or the situation is unfair, or many other possibilities.  There are even some indications in research that, for exmple, taking meds for depression can possibly lead to a less robust recovery - perhaps some process is bypassed that is, for many people, helpful in the future.  I think for certain the idea that they can't cope with disappointment or failure or tragedy, that they will as a matter of course need professional help, does not instill confidence in young people, aside from the missed experience. (I know the recommendations for dealing with tragedy in schools for exmple are no longer so positive about big interventions, but they still go on in many cases.)

 

and on the other side of all of this, we my not actually teach young people s many explicit internal coping mechanisms any more.  Many kids are even missing  language to really talk about existential angst in a way that makes sense of it.

[Arcadia]

"Students are afraid to fail; they do not take risks; they need to be certain about things. For many of them, failure is seen as catastrophic and unacceptable. External measures of success are more important than learning and autonomous development.

• Faculty, particularly young faculty members, feel pressured to accede to student wishes lest they get low teacher ratings from their students. Students email about trivial things and expect prompt replies.
• Failure and struggle need to be normalized. Students are very uncomfortable in not being right. They want to re-do papers to undo their earlier mistakes. We have to normalize being wrong and learning from one’s errors."

 

Grades unfortunately are a gatekeeper in school programs.  Unless a child is an outlier, going by portfolio and teacher recommendation is hard. Parents kick a fuss about any grade below A because they are worried the child cannot get into honors class or algebra at 6th/7th or whatever is the "better" track in their child's school.

 

DS11 was in public school. He thinks 80% is the pass mark and 95% and above is an A. When he got a 90% for a test, he told me he did badly and ask if it is as bad as a fail. He wasn't upset but his perception was skewed. In my childhood, only the grades on the national level exams matter so kids are not upset if they get a C/D/F for school assessments.  It just means they have to study and revise more for exams  but it doesn't pull the GPA down.  While it is scary to have everything based on the national exams, it is an exam period stress rather than a year round stress.

 

Having SAT test, SAT subjects test and ACT test dates year round doesn't help either. I had 12 exams subjects in high school which were done in about three weeks of testing. At 3 SAT subject test per SAT subject test date, it would have taken me at least four months to finish testing. Also if I did not get a good score on a SAT subject test, I would have felt pressurized to re-take on the next test date.

 

As for any pest in my hostel room, I had just happily called my medicine and biology undergrad friends down the hallway to catch those for me. They use them for the university's animal control lab. There was a stray dog with rabies once, we called animal control.

[Liz CA]

People say stuff like this, but I've never actually encountered a parent like this.  Not to this extreme no. 

 

And given the fact there are a lot of families where both parents work full time, how on earth would they find the time to be so micromanaging? 

 

And where is the connection between electronic device use and level of independence or resilience? 

 

Micromanaging and almost no "managing" both can cause anxiety. One for fear of taking a wrong step, the other for lack of healthy boundaries.

 

Digital devices in and of themselves are not to be blamed, rather the usage pattern that many have developed. And I am not saying it is a direct cause but rather part of a whole new "digital lifestyle."

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Micromanaging and almost no "managing" both can cause anxiety. One for fear of taking a wrong step, the other for lack of healthy boundaries.

 

Digital devices in and of themselves are not to be blamed, rather the usage pattern that many have developed. And I am not saying it is a direct cause but rather part of a whole new "digital lifestyle."

 

 

That's vague.  What is the "digital lifestyle"?  What's the right amount of digital device use?  And for what reason?

 

This is all stuff that sounds like the sort of thing really old people say.  Back in my day....we walked to school uphill both ways in a blizzard.  You didn't hear us complaining!!!!

 

LOL

 

It is apparent that several here are quite fond of digital devices.  So are you saying we are possibly dysfunctional?  Or lacking resilience?

[Liz CA]

That's vague.  What is the "digital lifestyle"?  What's the right amount of digital device use?  And for what reason?

 

This is all stuff that sounds like the sort of thing really old people say.  Back in my day....we walked to school uphill both ways in a blizzard.  You didn't hear us complaining!!!!

 

LOL

 

It is apparent that several here are quite fond of digital devices.  So are you saying we are possibly dysfunctional?  Or lacking resilience?

 

No, I am obviously using it myself. A "digital lifestyle," especially if it is to the detriment / exclusion of other activities can contribute. However, I need to bold the last sentence in my original post, "...just one aspect of a very complex issue."

 

Edited December 4, 2015 by Liz CA

[Bluegoat]

People say stuff like this, but I've never actually encountered a parent like this.  Not to this extreme no. 

 

And given the fact there are a lot of families where both parents work full time, how on earth would they find the time to be so micromanaging? 

 

And where is the connection between electronic device use and level of independence or resilience? 

 

I think the busyness has a lot to do with the controlling of kids lives.  It's by proxy though, in many cases.  If you re in a daycre setting because your parents are working, you will have a far more structured day than a child t home, and often more limited spacially.  If you don't know your neighbours, you won't be comfortable letting your kid wander.

[4kidlets4me]

I've seen this in my CC classes as well. The classes started out sounding challenging and by the 3rd week of the quarter got easier and easier. Students were still complaining about how hard everything was. I thought the classes were exceptionally easy and have an A in every class. I can't figure out how I manage to hold a job, run a household, take care of 4 kids and still study and get my stuff done when these 18-25 year olds with almost no responsibility can't manage.

[albeto.]

What boggles my mind is that a lot of adults (older adults) are not much better.  I haven't taken a college course in awhile (20 years).  I'm taking one now at a CC.  Most of the people in the class are adults out and about in the world who have had some experiences.  So many of them cannot get their act together.  Maybe they are stretched too thin.  I really don't know.   They can't meet deadlines.  The instructor can send out 100 reminders and hand hold to the max and still several act like they didn't see that one coming.  I'm looking forward to the class being over.  He has watered down stuff so much in response to so many people just not putting in any effort that I'm not all that interested anymore. 

 

Shh. You're not supposed to focus on that. Just focus on Kids These Days, and how tough you were at a young age. You know, remember how when life handed you lemons, you pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, made the best damn lemonade in those sweaty boots, convinced people to purchase some of that special sweaty-betty-boot-strap lemonade for a fantaistic price, made a bundle, went on to save your city through hard work ethics and a firm handshake, and you did it all while keeping your house immaculately clean, too. Kids these days. They're wimps. I laugh at my older kids because they say the same thing about kids these days (who are like, three to five whole years younger). They have no idea they were supposed to be the generation that screwed up America. But wait, I was of the generation that screwed up America. Mtv and devil music. Now wait, my parents' generation screwed up America. All that free love and civil rights and stuff. No wait, my grandparents' generation screwed up America. America was just find before people had TVs in their homes and started putting on airs. No wait...

[Catherine]

A couple of thoughts on this: 2 of my 3 children have needed, and continue to need, extra help to function optimally.  Both are young adults.  It's honestly only been in the past 2 months, since we began to entertain a diagnosis of HFA in one of them, that I've really understood why this is the case.  That, and seeing my third child go to school and realizing that the other two were NOT normal and I was not imagining this-though I sincerely hoped that I was at the time.  So when I read articles like the one linked, I feel guilty for being such a helicoptering parent, and wonder again what I did wrong to make my kids so fragile and dependent...except that they are neither fragile nor dependent, it's different from that.  They are not asking for help, complaining about workload, falling apart emotionally.  They just plain have trouble functioning normally.  Now that I have a normal child, I can see the glaring difference.  

 

The idea that schools may be contributing to this trend in intriguing-I agree, but not all schools handle students the same way.  Once more I have to sing the praises of my son's school, a Bard Early College high school.  Because the teachers are PhDs, not people who are trained as teachers, and because the school explicitly states that kids will be treated like adults and expected to conduct themselves like adults, they way they manage bad behavior is interesting.  There is no lack of disruptive behavior, but I also see more kids choosing to control themselves, to work, and definitely the great majority are very engaged and interested in learning.  So IMO this approach works, but there is a learning curve that last several months during which things are not ideal.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

A couple of thoughts on this: 2 of my 3 children have needed, and continue to need, extra help to function optimally.  Both are young adults.  It's honestly only been in the past 2 months, since we began to entertain a diagnosis of HFA in one of them, that I've really understood why this is the case.  That, and seeing my third child go to school and realizing that the other two were NOT normal and I was not imagining this-though I sincerely hoped that I was at the time.  So when I read articles like the one linked, I feel guilty for being such a helicoptering parent, and wonder again what I did wrong to make my kids so fragile and dependent...except that they are neither fragile nor dependent, it's different from that.  They are not asking for help, complaining about workload, falling apart emotionally.  They just plain have trouble functioning normally.  Now that I have a normal child, I can see the glaring difference.  

 

The idea that schools may be contributing to this trend in intriguing-I agree, but not all schools handle students the same way.  Once more I have to sing the praises of my son's school, a Bard Early College high school.  Because the teachers are PhDs, not people who are trained as teachers, and because the school explicitly states that kids will be treated like adults and expected to conduct themselves like adults, they way they manage bad behavior is interesting.  There is no lack of disruptive behavior, but I also see more kids choosing to control themselves, to work, and definitely the great majority are very engaged and interested in learning.  So IMO this approach works, but there is a learning curve that last several months during which things are not ideal.  

 

I can't speak to your individual situation, but plenty of young adults aren't necessarily functioning optimally without help.  For one thing, that really is a process.  I don't know why people think that at 18 a kid magically knows how to deal with everything. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I only lived on campus one semester, but I recall a couple of moments of having no clue how to handle something.  Once I chipped my tooth.  I had no money, no insurance, and no idea what I was going to do.  My parents did not help me.  Nobody helped me.  Nobody told me what to do in those instances.  It wasn't pleasant feeling so alone.  I didn't end up doing anything because there was nothing I could do.  It just was at that moment I realized how damn alone I was.  Frankly, I don't think anyone should have to feel that way on any regular basis.  I will help my kids when stuff like that happens because I want to and I can.  Humans in general are social creatures and rely on others to help sometimes.  This does not matter if they are an adult or not.  Am I going to tell my kid to suck it up just cuz I want to prove something?  Nope.

 

 

 

 

[Bluegoat]

I only lived on campus one semester, but I recall a couple of moments of having no clue how to handle something.  Once I chipped my tooth.  I had no money, no insurance, and no idea what I was going to do.  My parents did not help me.  Nobody helped me.  Nobody told me what to do in those instances.  It wasn't pleasant feeling so alone.  I didn't end up doing anything because there was nothing I could do.  It just was at that moment I realized how damn alone I was.  Frankly, I don't think anyone should have to feel that way on any regular basis.  I will help my kids when stuff like that happens because I want to and I can.  Humans in general are social creatures and rely on others to help sometimes.  This does not matter if they are an adult or not.  Am I going to tell my kid to suck it up just cuz I want to prove something?  Nope.

 

Why do you see this s the opposite of what's being described in the OP?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why do you see this s the opposite of what's being described in the OP?

 

I don't really understand your question. 

[TranquilMind]

I find it fascinating that baby boomers were called revolutionary for demanding the world be re-shaped to fit their new morality, but students today are called coddled. "You have to accept our reality!"

 

I think young people are more sensitive and demanding than older people.

 

I think that way, way more people are attending college now and no, they haven't had the opportunity to go out, get jobs, etc. because the world has been seen as "too dangerous" but who created that world? Who created that mood? Who created that situation?

 

My step kids take the public bus to school or walk or ride bikes. My daughter has walked to the bus stop alone since she was seven. Our kids, I believe, are very resilient, but that doesn't mean they have the same grade scale in their head as I did. (Though actually... they do, they get the same grades... the same test scores...)

 

Maybe because I'm GenX, so we are already a different generation, different universe, but I just don't see this going on. Yeah, among the extremely posh families, but wasn't it always that way? I don't know. My kids' lives are a bit more free than mine was (my mom has some social anxiety issues and was paranoid about kidnapping) and they have more opportunities but life goes on in much the same way. Circle time, lesson, rotations, recess, hands-on work, lunch, lesson, specialist (music, art, library), bus home, walk home once you're about eight, do homework, mom/stepdad comes home, do a chore or go to something (we just had TV, they have stuff to do, no, my mom did not engage in highly motivating educational activities on a daily basis after a 9 hour shift at the hospital, someone call CPS), blah blah blah.

 

Life goes on.

 

Either my kids are exceptionally well-poised for the future or this is all kind of an upper-class problem.

 

And we aren't even poor.

But boomers were NOT coddled nor did they make demands that were heeded very much at the time.    Are you kidding me?  We had WW II vet military dads who demanded we stay in line, and then mainly left us alone to get stuff done.  And we did.  Some took a little longer than necessary, but most of us ended up in stable adulthood. 

 

I agree that today's young people are more sensitive and demanding, but that is a double-edged sword.  They also tend to value themselves and their as-yet- developing skills more highly than they ought.   You have to earn respect, not just demand it when you haven't earned it yet. 

 

Who created the "more dangerous world"?  Well, let's see....Nut cases?  People on psychiatric drugs who are snapping left and right?  Let's get into that and stop it.

 

Religious nutcases like the recent incidents?  How do we stop them?  People are afraid to fly and always fearful of those around them, with good historical precedent for it. 

 

Even my own kids have said we had it much better because we had way more freedom, fewer nutcases (at least in our small town), and fewer responsibilities in schoolwork.  We also weren't tied to a cell phone 24/7 and actually interacted with people. 

[TranquilMind]

I only lived on campus one semester, but I recall a couple of moments of having no clue how to handle something.  Once I chipped my tooth.  I had no money, no insurance, and no idea what I was going to do.  My parents did not help me.  Nobody helped me.  Nobody told me what to do in those instances.  It wasn't pleasant feeling so alone.  I didn't end up doing anything because there was nothing I could do.  It just was at that moment I realized how damn alone I was.  Frankly, I don't think anyone should have to feel that way on any regular basis.  I will help my kids when stuff like that happens because I want to and I can.  Humans in general are social creatures and rely on others to help sometimes.  This does not matter if they are an adult or not.  Am I going to tell my kid to suck it up just cuz I want to prove something?  Nope.

Why didn't you call a parent to ask what one does in this situation, if you weren't sure?    You could not even call them?  (My apologies if they were already deceased). 

I handled everything on my own too, but if I didn't know, I would just call my mom and ask what she thought was the best way to handle this in my circumstances, even if she couldn't directly help. 

 

I think a good balance is what we should do.  It should look like you have to sink or swim, but they (and you) should know deep down that Mom and Dad will always help if they put in the effort and if they then ask. 

We can't coddle them into adulthood.  The world doesn't give a rat's behind about your excuses and neither should mom (if they are indeed excuses, and not a real emergency). 

 

But we can't not give them the information and the tools to succeed on their own, and let them try while still in their teens. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by TranquilMind

[TranquilMind]

A couple of thoughts on this: 2 of my 3 children have needed, and continue to need, extra help to function optimally.  Both are young adults.  It's honestly only been in the past 2 months, since we began to entertain a diagnosis of HFA in one of them, that I've really understood why this is the case.  That, and seeing my third child go to school and realizing that the other two were NOT normal and I was not imagining this-though I sincerely hoped that I was at the time.  So when I read articles like the one linked, I feel guilty for being such a helicoptering parent, and wonder again what I did wrong to make my kids so fragile and dependent...except that they are neither fragile nor dependent, it's different from that.  They are not asking for help, complaining about workload, falling apart emotionally.  They just plain have trouble functioning normally.  Now that I have a normal child, I can see the glaring difference.  

 

The idea that schools may be contributing to this trend in intriguing-I agree, but not all schools handle students the same way.  Once more I have to sing the praises of my son's school, a Bard Early College high school.  Because the teachers are PhDs, not people who are trained as teachers, and because the school explicitly states that kids will be treated like adults and expected to conduct themselves like adults, they way they manage bad behavior is interesting.  There is no lack of disruptive behavior, but I also see more kids choosing to control themselves, to work, and definitely the great majority are very engaged and interested in learning.  So IMO this approach works, but there is a learning curve that last several months during which things are not ideal.  

Isn't that just normal?  It should be.  To me, it is.    It should really not be some notable, special situation. 

 

I'm glad your son is in a great place. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why didn't you call a parent to ask what one does in this situation, if you weren't sure?    You could not even call them?  (My apologies if they were already deceased). 

I handled everything on my own too, but if I didn't know, I would just call my mom and ask what she thought was the best way to handle this in my circumstances, even if she couldn't directly help. 

 

I think a good balance is what we should do.  It should look like you have to sink or swim, but they (and you) should know deep down that Mom and Dad will always help if they put in the effort and if they then ask. 

We can't coddle them into adulthood.  The world doesn't give a rat's behind about your excuses and neither should mom (if they are indeed excuses, and not a real emergency). 

 

But we can't not give them the information and the tools to succeed on their own, and let them try while still in their teens. 

 

I did.  They didn't say anything to me.  All I had access to was a pay phone. 

 

My parents barely functioned themselves half the time. 

 

My parents were also not really right in the head.

 

I'm just saying I know what it is like to have NOBODY.  It's sucky.

[TranquilMind]

I can't speak to your individual situation, but plenty of young adults aren't necessarily functioning optimally without help.  For one thing, that really is a process.  I don't know why people think that at 18 a kid magically knows how to deal with everything. 

Why aren't they? 

 

I'm not talking about mistakes, which we all will make, and learning from those.  

 

But they should darn well be functional as adults, even if still in school, so maybe not completely financially self-supporting, of course, by the age of 18, in my view.  I sure was.  I moved out. 

 

One of my kids has an apartment (and is in university). 

[TranquilMind]

I did.  They didn't say anything to me.  All I had access to was a pay phone. 

 

My parents barely functioned themselves half the time. 

 

My parents were also not really right in the head.

 

I'm just saying I know what it is like to have NOBODY.  It's sucky.

I am sorry.  You should have called MY mom.  She knew everything.  ;) 

 

I'm sorry you had that experience growing up and can't imagine not trying to assist your kids even with information.  Most of us would turn heaven and earth to do that for our kids. 

 

Your situation was not right and I'm sorry. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why aren't they? 

 

I'm not talking about mistakes, which we all will make, and learning from those.  

 

But they should darn well be functional as adults, even if still in school, so maybe not completely financially self-supporting, of course, by the age of 18, in my view.  I sure was.  I moved out. 

 

One of my kids has an apartment (and is in university). 

 

Optimally might not be quite the right word.  I am referring in large part to the financial stuff.  I wasn't at 18.  I lived in a high cost of living area.  I worked a lot, but didn't have money for a car.  I had no way to get around easily.  It was very difficult.  My parents never helped me.  Does this mean there was something wrong with me?  I don't think so.

[TranquilMind]

Thinking of school (or even my own guys), some need extra support or they'd fall through the cracks.  I don't think it's wrong to give that help.  Falling through the cracks isn't pretty.

 

Maybe it's creating more dependent adults, but OTOH, they are reaching adulthood.

 

Are we hurting those who would succeed anyway or just helping those we otherwise wouldn't see because they'd have fallen?

 

I'm going to have to catch up on this later.  Today's plan is outside with the ponies - mainly pulling cockleburrs from manes and tails.  :glare:  It was so tempting to post a thread (Tom Sawyer style) seeing if others wanted to help.   :coolgleamA:   My farm hands are still at college (or married).  Weaning and halter breaking are also on the agenda for this week...

Someone probably would have helped you with the horses!  Sounds like fun. 

[TranquilMind]

Optimally might not be quite the right word.  I am referring in large part to the financial stuff.  I wasn't at 18.  I lived in a high cost of living area.  I worked a lot, but didn't have money for a car.  I had no way to get around easily.  It was very difficult.  My parents never helped me.  Does this mean there was something wrong with me?  I don't think so.

You didn't have buses or trains or other transportation? 

 

I exempted financial stuff, because that is a process.   No, I don't think there was anything wrong with you.  Your parents failed to tell you what you needed to know.  Wasn't there anyone else, like uncles or teachers or grandparents who could have given you some direction?  That's sad.

[SparklyUnicorn]

You didn't have buses or trains or other transportation? 

 

I exempted financial stuff, because that is a process.   No, I don't think there was anything wrong with you.  Your parents failed to tell you what you needed to know.  Wasn't there anyone else, like uncles or teachers or grandparents who could have given you some direction?  That's sad.

 

no public transport of any kind

 

I took care of my parents.

 

Yeah maybe I just had sucky luck.  I thought there was something wrong with me that I didn't have it figured out right away.  My kids have had a lot more opportunities than me. 

I was pretty resilient I think, but it didn't look like what some describe here.  Which is why I don't think people should jump to conclusions because they don't always know the situation.

 

Some people who make out well brag about how independent they were/are.  They don't mention the fact they had help.  They don't realize that part had something to do with it. 

[Anne in CA]

I did.  They didn't say anything to me.  All I had access to was a pay phone. 

 

My parents barely functioned themselves half the time. 

 

My parents were also not really right in the head.

 

I'm just saying I know what it is like to have NOBODY.  It's sucky.

My parents were trying to save their family farm from Reganomics and my parents each had their own mental health issues. My mother struggles with anxiety and my father is an animal hoarder, although living on a large cattle ranch he was able to take good care of the animals he hoarded, so we were never on the news like some are. But asking such people for life advice would have been a horrible idea. It is a good think that they allowed us to be independent at a young age and think for ourselves so that we could do it later, lol.