Yoga class cancelled due to cultural appropriation

[SKL]

I"m pretty sure the white owners of my kids' gym had no business naming their kid Anjali.

Edited November 24, 2015 by SKL

[Cammie]

I am pretty far left (suprise!) and I think this is idiocy.

 

Perhaps I am colored by the fact that my entire life may have been an experiment in cultural appropriation.

 

I am in a mixed culture marriage. I live in my husband's native country.  I eat that food.  I wear those clothes.  I celebrate those holidays.

 

I've yet to meet a person that has a problem with any of it!

[EmseB]

I don't agree with everything it says, but I think this is the gist of where that article comes down on it:

 

 

In other words, yoga isn't necessarily bad and isn't off the table. What's potentially bad is conveying an image that yoga is a white thing or that yoga was created by white people or is best practiced by white people. And it's saying, hey, this is just worth thinking about. Sort like how there's nothing wrong with eating quinoa, but it's sure worth thinking about how the inflated price of quinoa has disrupted access to it by the very people who have always used it as a dietary staple. Should you not eat quinoa? I don't know. But I sure think it's worthy of a conversation and not a joke.

I can't figure out what this even means. Could you give an example? Sure, going to yoga in well off suburbs is probably pretty basic, but if someone else wants a different flavor of yoga (which, by my last count, there are about 15 thousand different kinds of studios) then they can have that. There are probably plenty of studios where yoga is done in a way that is not "traditional" according to someone else, but how does that equate to someone appropriating yoga? They are just taking something they like and suiting it to their preferences. Remember when imitation was supposed to be flattering and not offensive? I could see the point if people were saying one way of yoga is wrong and another is right because white people made it better. But what I see is all different sorts of people doing yoga for all different reasons. This happens with food, sports, language, etc. It's what happens when people live together and pick up each other's cultures and they mix. How can someone do yoga in a way to keep other people from doing it?

 

But someone upthreand suggesting asking the Indian community if it's ok. Wouldn't it be pretty ethnocentric and arrogant of me to assume the Indian community is so monolithic and they would all have the same opinion on every subject?

Edited November 24, 2015 by JodiSue

[Katy]

If we'd just go back to the whole don't be a jerk and don't assume other people are being jerks we'd all get along so much better.

[Farrar]

I can't figure out what this even means. Could you give an example? Sure, going to yoga in well off suburbs is probably pretty basic, but if someone else wants a different flavor of yoga (which, by my last count, there are about 15 thousand different kinds of studios) then they can have that. There are probably plenty of studios where yoga is done in a way that is not "traditional" according to someone else, but how does that equate to someone appropriating yoga? They are just taking something they like and sitting it to their preferences. I could see the point if people were saying one way of yoga is wrong and another is right because white people made it better. But what I see is all different sorts of people doing yoga for all different reasons. This happens with food, sports, language, etc. It's what happens when people live together and pick up each other's cultures and they mix.

 

But someone upthreand suggesting asking the Indian community if it's ok. Wouldn't it be pretty ethnocentric and arrogant of me to assume the Indian community is so monolithic and they would all have the same opinion on every subject?

 

TBH, I think the questions the article raises are legitimate, but, like I said before, the history of yoga in the West is pretty clearly an example of cultural exchange. Indian swamis came to the US to spread yoga. I think it's pretty overblown as an example of cultural appropriation. But part of my point in posting it is that it's worth our time to think about that stuff.

 

I do see a lot of "yoga" that isn't really yoga. Like, things that are labeled as yoga that have very little in common with the traditional practice of yoga. I think it's fair to say that's appropriation on some level. On the other hand, I think that article is too strident about the line between appropriation and exchange. And I think there's degrees. It's worth being aware of this and mindful but not necessary to change our practices. Other times, of course, we should change our practices or should be vocal about critiquing the double standards of cultural appropriation (like, say, I think it's fair to hate on Iggy Azalea).

[EmseB]

To give you an example in a culturally specific example I am more likely to be confronted with:

 

My co-op is studying Australian art. Someone suggests we do dot painting. Is this cultural exchange or appropriation ? I don't know, so I go online to look for an elder who can help me. I might call the local indigenous dance college and ask if anyone knows an artist I can ask. Or I might look online for statements on this from elders. In other words, I do some research.

 

I might find conflicting suggestions. In that case, I'll prioritize the opinion of local elders. If they say 'please don't do it - learn about it, sure, but don't appropriate it' then we won't. If they say 'sure, OK, go ahead and have fun' great! we can do so knowing that we've shown respect by asking. They might say 'please don't do it at home but here is somewhere you can take your children to learn about it.' Also great.

 

it's not that hard.

 

The post Farrar linked made a great point in distinguishing between exchange and appropriation.

 

Mostly, food and art are great vehicles for exchange. But it doesn't hurt to check where possible.

I think this is where people think things get a bit silly. Painting with dots, even if done traditionally by some groups, cannot be said to be "owned" by anyone. It's painting using dots. It's a legitimate art technique. To say that one council of tribal elders could say other people doing dot painting is not okay? That's not making a stronger case for your point.

 

I could even say you could teach it the other way around: here is a way to do art with just dots, and here are some past ways people have done it. Monet did it this way. This group made these pieces. This guy made these.

 

To say you have to call and ask permission to paint with dots is bordering on ridiculousness. If you want paint with dots and talk about how silly and crazy it is, I see a problem. Painting with dots because someone else did? No, I'm not going to ask permission to make a similar art project, because people don't own art. Or food, or exercise for that matter.

Edited November 24, 2015 by JodiSue

[Farrar]

If we'd just go back to the whole don't be a jerk and don't assume other people are being jerks we'd all get along so much better.

 

This is basically the complaint you made in the Thanksgiving thread as well. I *don't* assume that anyone was being a jerk here or in most of the cases of cultural appropriation or the like. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. As was pointed out to you then, if you don't know that someone is allergic to peanuts and you feed them some peanuts, you haven't done anything intentionally wrong, but someone might still have deal with hives, go to the hospital or even die. Should you be prosecuted or punished? No, not unless you broke some other rule that should have been clear to you. Should people call you names? Well, they might call you a poisoner, which is actually sort of descriptive, but it would be wrong of people to mistreat you. Should you feel guilty? Well, you might, but you really don't have to feel bad. You didn't mean to hurt anyone. Should you yell about how horrible the injured party was to you? Start a campaign complaining about how no one is allowed to eat peanut butter anymore? Insist that you won't be checking the content of anything else you feed anyone because that's your right and people should get over themselves? Uh, no. Because that would horrible. Except, that's the conclusion of what you're arguing here. If you do something and someone says, hey, that's offensive to me, then that's the equivalent of calling you a jerk and a meanie and you can lash out at them.

[EmseB]

TBH, I think the questions the article raises are legitimate, but, like I said before, the history of yoga in the West is pretty clearly an example of cultural exchange. Indian swamis came to the US to spread yoga. I think it's pretty overblown as an example of cultural appropriation. But part of my point in posting it is that it's worth our time to think about that stuff.

 

I do see a lot of "yoga" that isn't really yoga. Like, things that are labeled as yoga that have very little in common with the traditional practice of yoga. I think it's fair to say that's appropriation on some level. On the other hand, I think that article is too strident about the line between appropriation and exchange. And I think there's degrees. It's worth being aware of this and mindful but not necessary to change our practices. Other times, of course, we should change our practices or should be vocal about critiquing the double standards of cultural appropriation (like, say, I think it's fair to hate on Iggy Azalea).

 

But changing something up to make it something you (general) like better or prefer doesn't prevent people from doing things their way.  There is traditional yoga, and there's hybridized American white girl in the suburbs yoga and pilates and cardio.  And while it might be silly to call it yoga, it's just...something else.  Someone who wants traditional yoga is in no way being harmed by white girl in the suburbs doing stretches called yoga.  Even if there's a big marketing scheme to get people to come to white girl yoga.  They are just stretching and exercising.  And, honestly, that is probably what you are going to get anywhere when cultures mix with each other.  You're going to get some form of something traditional mixed with some other culture's take on it.  And no one is hurting anyone.  They are just changing things to make it the way they like it.  And the people who like the original can stick to what they like too.  And someone else can come along and throw a third culture into the mix somewhere and add a different element.

 

As for Iggy Azalea?  She's jumping on a marketing train that existed long before she came along.

[EmseB]

 I think this is one of those times where I get to say - I'm afraid you don't understand Australian culture. 

 

Your point of view was dominant here in the 1970's when I was growing up. Attitudes have shifted since then. For example, the majority of public events start with an acknowledgement that we stand on indigenous land. Whenever possible, someone who is able to do so performs a welcome to country.

 

With respect, just as I don't get many aspects of US culture, you show with this post that you just don't get mine.

 

 Respect for minority and historically oppressed groups can only contribute to positive exchange and greater harmony. 

 

99% of the time it costs me nothing to show this respect. 

 

Okay, but I'm trying to get at what you're saying:

So you would agree that painting with dots is a proprietary technique that one culture can own, regardless of other cultures or people throughout history who have used the same technique?

 

ETA:  If I see a dot painting, and I don't know the context, and I think it looks like fun art to try and I go to my home and try to make a painting using colorful dots, then I am appropriating an entire culture?

 

I'm not being snarky, I'm trying to understand what you're saying as it relates to art specifically.

Edited November 24, 2015 by JodiSue

[Farrar]

But changing something up to make it something you (general) like better or prefer doesn't prevent people from doing things their way.  There is traditional yoga, and there's hybridized American white girl in the suburbs yoga and pilates and cardio.  And while it might be silly to call it yoga, it's just...something else.  Someone who wants traditional yoga is in no way being harmed by white girl in the suburbs doing stretches called yoga.  Even if there's a big marketing scheme to get people to come to white girl yoga.  They are just stretching and exercising.  And, honestly, that is probably what you are going to get anywhere when cultures mix with each other.  You're going to get some form of something traditional mixed with some other culture's take on it.  And no one is hurting anyone.  They are just changing things to make it the way they like it.  And the people who like the original can stick to what they like too.  And someone else can come along and throw a third culture into the mix somewhere and add a different element.

 

As for Iggy Azalea?  She's jumping on a marketing train that existed long before she came along.

 

There is a harm though - when the dominant worldwide idea of what yoga means is white people in a hot room stretching quickly to a techno beat then that means that the practice has drifted pretty far away from the original idea and hasn't drifted with the traditional practitioners. In a way, it's been stolen from them. They can't get back the concept of "yoga" - it's been taken from them and turned into something else. That's a type of harm. It's like - you invent something and someone else copies it, changes it, and turns it into something you find distasteful. You haven't been physically harmed. You haven't been legally harmed. But you probably feel harmed.

 

I think yoga hasn't reached that level quite... And, like I said above, it's not really about saying that someone is "bad" exactly. And it's not about trying to make something illegal. It's more about saying, hey, this is a conversation worth having so we can think about how we call things, who gets to decide. And about each of us deciding how we want to proceed as a result, having thought about those things. When people mock the question - it assumes that there can't be any harm, that it's absurd, that we should all do what we want and other people can be ignored. Except I don't really want to live that way or think that way. I want to know if my actions are offensive and make decisions thinking about that.

 

Iggy Azalea has been pretty vocally rude about the roots of her own music. Of course she's jumping on a marketing train. But there are ways to do it right and she isn't it.

[Katy]

This is basically the complaint you made in the Thanksgiving thread as well. I *don't* assume that anyone was being a jerk here or in most of the cases of cultural appropriation or the like. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. As was pointed out to you then, if you don't know that someone is allergic to peanuts and you feed them some peanuts, you haven't done anything intentionally wrong, but someone might still have deal with hives, go to the hospital or even die. Should you be prosecuted or punished? No, not unless you broke some other rule that should have been clear to you. Should people call you names? Well, they might call you a poisoner, which is actually sort of descriptive, but it would be wrong of people to mistreat you. Should you feel guilty? Well, you might, but you really don't have to feel bad. You didn't mean to hurt anyone. Should you yell about how horrible the injured party was to you? Start a campaign complaining about how no one is allowed to eat peanut butter anymore? Insist that you won't be checking the content of anything else you feed anyone because that's your right and people should get over themselves? Uh, no. Because that would horrible. Except, that's the conclusion of what you're arguing here. If you do something and someone says, hey, that's offensive to me, then that's the equivalent of calling you a jerk and a meanie and you can lash out at them.

 

I don't think I saw the part about peanuts, and I certainly don't remember responding to it.  Allergies are not an appropriate analogy, because as someone with severe food allergies I consider it my responsibility to make sure the food I eat is safe for me.  It's not poisoning unless it is done with intent. If someone else feeds me something I'm allergic to and I neglected to check the ingredients or the place it was prepared that is my fault not theirs.

 

Being offended by cultures exchanging ideas because of some concept that your culture is oppressed by this other culture so there should never be any exchange isn't the same as blackface at all. It's not the same as people making fun of a group.  It's simply some small group of people deciding this practice isn't correct because this group is or was an oppressor (not two hundred years ago, not in legal ways, but in subtle ways of quiet discrimination that may or may not be actually happening between these groups of people right now) and inflicting their values on the rest of the world, similar to inflicting a religion on the rest of the world.  Because white Americans are automatically oppressors because we enjoy privileges other people don't.  Even when it's demonstrably true that most of such privilege has more to do with family economic circumstance than in being born in a certain demographic.

 

You will never get around social consequences for people that ARE acting to offend people on purpose.  And you shouldn't.  But if you're not sure if someone is meaning to offend you, you ask them.  You assume the best of them.  You say, "I'm sure you didn't mean this (implication of your action), but this is what the implication was..."  And then if they are a jerk who meant to hurt you, you know.  And if they are not, they can be more sensitive around you or tell you, "I'm sorry, I never meant to offend, but I'm not going to change, because I think you're being oversensitive."

 

Causing literal, physical death with allergens has nothing whatsoever to do with whether Yoga classes or Halloween costumes or Elvis music should be banned because HEY!  WHITE PEOPLE DON'T ENJOY OR APPRECIATE ASPECTS OF MY CULTURE AND ESPECIALLY DON'T MAKE MONEY ON IDEAS TAUGHT TO YOU BY MY CULTURE!

 

The logical ends of your argument is isolationism.  And don't you know, we already decided that separate cannot be equal. 

[EmseB]

This is basically the complaint you made in the Thanksgiving thread as well. I *don't* assume that anyone was being a jerk here or in most of the cases of cultural appropriation or the like. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. As was pointed out to you then, if you don't know that someone is allergic to peanuts and you feed them some peanuts, you haven't done anything intentionally wrong, but someone might still have deal with hives, go to the hospital or even die. Should you be prosecuted or punished? No, not unless you broke some other rule that should have been clear to you. Should people call you names? Well, they might call you a poisoner, which is actually sort of descriptive, but it would be wrong of people to mistreat you. Should you feel guilty? Well, you might, but you really don't have to feel bad. You didn't mean to hurt anyone. Should you yell about how horrible the injured party was to you? Start a campaign complaining about how no one is allowed to eat peanut butter anymore? Insist that you won't be checking the content of anything else you feed anyone because that's your right and people should get over themselves? Uh, no. Because that would horrible. Except, that's the conclusion of what you're arguing here. If you do something and someone says, hey, that's offensive to me, then that's the equivalent of calling you a jerk and a meanie and you can lash out at them.

You're comparing making someone seriously ill or killing them with things like doing exercises or painting in a certain style that is different than a traditional style.

 

Taking offense that someone imitates your cultural art and doesn't feel bad is not analogous to not being concerned if someone lives or dies.

[SparklyUnicorn]

what's the saying?

 

Imitation is the highest form of flattery....? 

[poppy]

How is this even a story? There are 12 yoga studios within 5 miles of my house, plus endless daily yoga classes at the gyms. Canceling yoga isn't a growing movement, or trend, or ....anything. Except something to argue about if you enjoy arguing.

[Katy]

I actually do believe in the right to cause offence - but why would anyone want to make it a habit ? I can think of only ONE issue on which I'd be prepared to cause offence, because the issue it involves is - to me - important enough. 

 

The rest of the time it really doesn't kill me to 'check my privilege'. A lot of the time it's just an exercise in politeness - mind if I use this ? mind if I tell the story this way ?

 

In most cases you're right, it's not hurting anyone to be polite and check to see if you're being insensitive or not.

 

But we increasingly live in an online world, not in the small one that is limited by the circle of people we know.  And when my kid can't be a ninja for Halloween because of WWII or my friend can't take a yoga class at the local college gym the way she always has because some group of white people decide it's cultural appropriation, the problem is the people making these decisions have elevated their desire for no one to ever do anything that could possibly be offensive according to a set of values they created themselves to a religion.

 

I might be a Christian, but I'm not among those who try to shove my religion in everyone else's face.  But these people, by coming down on Halloween costumes and yoga classes and Thai food are doing exactly that- shoving a religion no one else thinks is legitimate in our faces. Like most religions, it has threads of truth.  But am I going to embrace something that sucks all the joy out of living in the modern world?  No.  No thank you.  Not ever.  This is why we have the freedom to offend.

 

And on a scarier side, I am afraid of political swings that will result to correct something like this.  When bright people go way overboard, way past common sense and basic decency to try and control every enjoyable aspect of life like fascists...  what happens when average people react to that?  History tells me the reaction will be equally overboard, and to me that is scarier than getting condescended to by academics who are sure they know more than the rest of us about moral ways to live.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I still need to read the story.  Taking it as stated in the title, I still really do not understand.  This is not up there with painting one's face black and putting on a comedy skit.  That's like saying I'm being disrespectful because I try recipes typical of an ethnic group other than my own.  Is it because I want to make fun of people?  No.  Is it because I want to honor them?  No.  Really I just want to try something new.  How does this hurt anyone?

 

If someone is insulted that they call the class "yoga",  then call it something else.  Whatever. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

And on a scarier side, I am afraid of political swings that will result to correct something like this.  When bright people go way overboard, way past common sense and basic decency to try and control every enjoyable aspect of life like fascists...  what happens when average people react to that?  History tells me the reaction will be equally overboard, and to me that is scarier than getting condescended to by academics who are sure they know more than the rest of us about moral ways to live.

 

Yes..yes...yes.  And it happens.   Well meaning people sometimes stop thinking critically out of fear of coming across as hateful.  Or those who bother to question something are labeled as hateful.

[Word Nerd]

How is this even a story? There are 12 yoga studios within 5 miles of my house, plus endless daily yoga classes at the gyms. Canceling yoga isn't a growing movement, or trend, or ....anything. Except something to argue about if you enjoy arguing.

 

 

That's quite a misrepresentation of the gist of this thread. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Word Nerd

[Katy]

 White people need to beware of paternalism, that's for sure. Which is why I suggested that asking before assuming is probably a useful thing to do.

 

I'm confused about which religion is stopping kids from dressing up or eating out ? 

 

I agree we all have the freedom to offend. It doesn't mean that those we offend don't have a right to speak up about it, disagree with us, and lobby fiercely against our offence. 

 

Academics can be just as blind as the rest of us. I don't know that I'd always consult an academic in the first instance. 

 

People fighting cultural appropriation also hate any Halloween costumes that might have ethnic origins other than white, and Thai food is an appropriation too.

[EmseB]

I actually do believe in the right to cause offence and also that there is no right NOT to be offended - but why would anyone want to make offence a habit ? I can think of only ONE issue on which I'd be prepared to cause offence, because the issue it involves is - to me - important enough.

 

The rest of the time it really doesn't kill me to 'check my privilege'. A lot of the time it's just an exercise in politeness - mind if I use this ? mind if I tell the story this way ? - and then responding with courtesy to the answer.

Which answer though? Again, these groups our communities aren't singularly minded, and who is offended about what is going to vary from person to person. Do we defer to the most offended or the least? Or try to fall in the middle? There will be individuals who clutch their pearls and individuals who say, "who cares?". Am I a clod for thinking people are not hardly ever of one mind on every issue within their culture?

[EmseB]

How is this even a story? There are 12 yoga studios within 5 miles of my house, plus endless daily yoga classes at the gyms. Canceling yoga isn't a growing movement, or trend, or ....anything. Except something to argue about if you enjoy arguing.

Is there some other reason to be on the internet?

[Katy]

 See, I've never come across that, especially the food thing.

 

Tbh, I think frivolous approaches to 'appropriation' just betray a lack of actual understanding about appropriation. 

 

I've heard a great deal about both recently.  Here are some examples.

 

Halloween:  http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/31/us/cultural-appropriation-halloween-costumes.html?_r=0

 

Food:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/08/31/childhood-friends-called-my-food-chinese-grossness-how-did-it-become-americas-hottest-food-trend/

[LucyStoner]

CC

 

It's confusing to me, because some people say that there is *automatically* a religious/spiritual element to yoga, because the positions are ...oh, gosh, I can't remember exactly, but like "prayer positions" or something. So there are Christians who don't think it's right for them to do yoga, I guess because it's hard to divorce that idea from the exercise part.

 

And then there's some people who say that's just silly, and there's absolutely nothing spiritual about yoga.

 

It seems to me it's the one's who formerly said yoga isn't spiritual at all that are now saying it is spiritual, and that's not something you call your own unless you...IDK...are of that belief, maybe? Because if you do, you are doing the cultural appropriation thing.

 

Sheesh.

 

Make up your mind.

 

Y'know?

 

I think there's a rather big assumption here that those two groups are one and the same. Maybe there's some overlap but it's a stretch to declare they are the same people. It also seems like the peeps saying it cultural appropriation are probably a fairly TINY group.

 

I also think that yoga may or may not have spiritual aspects depending on the teacher and the practitioner. It's not up to me to decide what is and isn't spiritual for you or anyone else. For me yoga isn't spiritual. It doesn't become spiritual for me because it is spiritual for others. It doesn't cease to be spiritual for others because it's not spiritual for me.

Edited November 24, 2015 by LucyStoner

[Katy]

 I actually think both articles have some truth to them.

 

Critiquing the way white people shame immigrant food and then appropriate it as 'new' seems valid to me. It's not the same as saying I can't eat Thai :)

 

 

There is some cognitive dissonance in equating all white people with one rude child.

[SKL]

It's nice to sit and talk about considering the cultural appropriation issue before we do things.  The problem is that in real life, that means we would be spending hours every day considering whether xyz is cultural appropriation.  (And what to do if it is.)  Does anyone have time for that?  If anyone does, I think maybe they need to find something more productive to do.

 

I don't expect anyone around the world to think twice before they implement something they learned from watching folks in Midwest USA.  And no, that's not because my white skin makes me too big and bad to have legitimate sensitivities.

[SKL]

I'm reminded how thrilled my Indian friend used to be when she saw things we've appropriated into our culture.  "Bungalow" comes to mind, but there are lots of other things that I didn't even know were Indian.  Who knew this was actually a terrible thing?  I must go inform my friend that she should be angry.

[Tanaqui]

There is some cognitive dissonance in equating all white people with one rude child.

 

Do you really think that the article was written because the author had exactly one bad experience as a child?

 

It's nice to sit and talk about considering the cultural appropriation issue before we do things.  The problem is that in real life, that means we would be spending hours every day considering whether xyz is cultural appropriation.  (And what to do if it is.)  Does anyone have time for that?  If anyone does, I think maybe they need to find something more productive to do.

 

Well, you seem to have ample time to post on this thread... and double and triple post as well. I'm not saying you should find something more productive to do (however we define that), exactly, but I'll point out that you could have instead spent a tiny fraction of that time thoughtfully emailing people on the yoga question and still come out ahead in terms of time expenditure.

[Slojo]

There is a serious topic here... which is how do institutions (and individuals) who are well-meaning navigate this world where many of us how understand that "well-meaning" simply isn't actually enough. How do they distinguish between the absurd (aka, THIS) and murky and the actually offensive. I think it's legitimately a struggle, but hopefully a worthy one for us as a society. Sadly, I think most people just want to be dismissive to the whole thing or mock it (don't get me wrong, this is pretty mockable, I'm just saying...). But then it undermines when the complaint is actually more serious.

 

I think it is a worthy topic as well. I think this definition of when something is cultural appropriation is a good starting point: 

 

The act of taking customs, practices, or traditions from one culture (usually by a member of a dominant culture) to either mock or simplify the meaning or significance of that piece of culture. Also, taking/wearing something from another culture and appreciating it only when it is not on the body of a member of that culture.

Examples/applications of cultural appropriation:

 

Giuliana Rancic: OMG Kylie Jenner's dreadlocks are so cool and edgy!! 

Giuliana Rancic: OMG Zendaya must smell like weed and patchouli.

 

"Any male or female that is NOT Native American wearing a Native American headdress because those headdresses are reserved for MALE elders after a religious ceremony; it's not just a cute hat.

 

Wearing bindis, dashikis, dreadlocks, saris, kilts, clogs, or any other type of clothing that is not native to your own culture without acknowledging the history these clothes come from or the oppression that some people who wear those clothes have to face because they are different from the majority culture in a specific country."  

I think recognition and an appreciation of the history behind something is key here, especially when others have had to endure a complicated or difficult history to practice something that is just a "fad," or "trendy" to you. If you are engaging in something in a deeper way, and especially if done so with some kind of connection and/or respect for the culture from which that thing hails, I think it's a different thing. 

So to sum it up, if Whitey has anything to potentially learn from other groups, it would be wrong for us to learn and practice it.

 

No, that would be the wrong conclusion to make, and an oversimplification that is beneath someone of your intellect (yes, I paid you a compliment ;-). 

 

what's the saying?

 

Imitation is the highest form of flattery....? 

 

I get what you are saying, but blackface was imitation, so not all imitation is equal. Imitation needs to take into consideration the fuller history. It needs to have some depth of understanding to truly be "flattering."  

 

People fighting cultural appropriation also hate any Halloween costumes that might have ethnic origins other than white, and Thai food is an appropriation too.

 

No Katy, I've not heard about folks suggesting Thai food as appropriation. It is food that is being freely shared, and everyone acknowledges its origins. Surely you are being hyperbolic. I don't know what to say about the Halloween costumes that hasn't been said. Not sure what's in your craw about that. If you (not necessarily you personally) have some big need to dress up as an indigenous person or a geisha, you know, you can do that. Just don't expect any applause for it (and maybe be prepared for the stinkeye in some cases). But, by all means, BE YOU! I'm not the boss of you, I can only tell you what something might mean to another culture, and you take that or you don't - it is what it is. 

 

 I actually think both articles have some truth to them.

 

Critiquing the way white people shame immigrant food and then appropriate it as 'new' seems valid to me. It's not the same as saying I can't eat Thai :)

 

Exactly this :iagree: !

Edited November 24, 2015 by Slojo

[SKL]

 

Well, you seem to have ample time to post on this thread... and double and triple post as well. I'm not saying you should find something more productive to do (however we define that), exactly, but I'll point out that you could have instead spent a tiny fraction of that time thoughtfully emailing people on the yoga question and still come out ahead in terms of time expenditure.

 

Oh sure but what about all the other questions this raises?

• I'm drinking coffee.  Not a local crop!
• I have prints of artworks in my room - artworks from various countries.  Also a table cover from Peru.
• I'm wearing a t-shirt bought in India that has the Aum symbol on it.
• I'm wearing pajama pants.  Pyjamas are appropriated from another culture.
• A nearby street is called Alla, not an American name I think - is it OK to drive on it?
• Was I awful to adopt kids from another country?  I guess that goes without saying, but seeing as how it's a done deal, what about anything I do for them so they can experience their birth culture?  Appropriation!
• I sometimes wear khaki pants.  Khaki!
• I had Chinese food for dinner.
• I will be attending our TaeKwonDo class tomorrow night.
• We have a patio out back.  Patio!
• My kids play music from various countries on instruments of various origins.
• Soccer.  Is soccer originally an American sport?
• About a third of our furniture and artworks are traditional Chinese designs, imported from China.  Worse, my grandma used to learn how to make "Chinese" paintings.
• Sometimes I eat Frankfurters and French fries, though not usually on the same day.
• Some of the trees and plants in my yard are not native.
• I used to read daily in 10 different languages, including the holy books from several different religions.  While listening to music from different origins, and sitting in a bamboo chair.  Wearing pajamas.  Sipping coffee.
• I know how to write my name in about 8 different scripts.  I have done this in front of people.
• The days of the week are appropriated from another culture.  So are the months of the year.  And the numbering of years.  And our system of weights and measures.  And our numbering system, not to mention various mathematical studies.  For that matter, so is the English language, if you think about it.
• What about chocolate?  Surely we must all recognize the cultural appropriation of chocolate.
• I do yoga on a daily basis.  But compared to chocolate, yoga seems minor in comparison.

You're right, I'm having fun wasting time on this because I'm procrastinating.  I don't recommend that others do the same from sunup to sundown.

Edited November 24, 2015 by SKL

[Tanaqui]

You do you, SKL. I was just pointing out the disparity between your words and your actions.

[Snickerdoodle]

Enjoy!  (Foul language warning)

 

http://www.namastebitchestheseries.com/

Edited November 24, 2015 by Snickerdoodle

[Rosie_0801]

Okay, but I'm trying to get at what you're saying:

So you would agree that painting with dots is a proprietary technique that one culture can own, regardless of other cultures or people throughout history who have used the same technique?

 

ETA:  If I see a dot painting, and I don't know the context, and I think it looks like fun art to try and I go to my home and try to make a painting using colorful dots, then I am appropriating an entire culture?

 

I'm not being snarky, I'm trying to understand what you're saying as it relates to art specifically.

 

Sadie and I seem to have different opinions here. This is not surprising as we live hundreds of km apart.

 

We had a couple of women from the Tanami desert come to teach Indigenous style painting classes at our local gallery. They want to share this information. There is some stuff that is their personal business and some stuff that belongs in the public domain. They don't tell us the stuff that isn't our business. :p The only offence that was caused here was the local Indigenous people were not informed they were coming. There was no quibble about them teaching dot painting, but there couldn't be anyway, because local indigenous people have no more rights to Indigenous dot painting than I do.

 

If you're going to dot paint, have at it, but it would obviously be fraud to claim to be Indigenous while selling your paintings. By the rules of Australian culture, it'd be in cultural appropriation territory to be selling Indigenous style dot paintings as a non Indigenous person. If you want to sell paintings that incorporate dots because you've been inspired to use that technique to paint your own story, you can but had better be prepared to footnote loud and clear. Perhaps in a hundred or two hundred years that won't be necessary any more, but our cultures haven't evolved that far yet. Maybe they won't. Maybe they shouldn't. *shrug*

Edited November 24, 2015 by Rosie_0801

[laundrycrisis]

I think everyone should go nuts culturally appropriating everything. Really go to town with it and have unlimited fun. It makes life more interesting. Those from the culture something came from are free to point out whatever they wish. Flood the world with information. People have the freedom to learn or not. I am fantastically over people wanting the world to be ridiculously sensitive about every little thing. Some things hurt and affect lives, because they create hostile environments and encourage discrimination. Others are annoyances. The PC mind police wannabes who want everyone bending over backwards and afraid of our own shadows out of their brand of sensitivity are the ones making a mockery of sensitivity. This doesn't encourage anyone to focus on real problems that actually affect inclusion. I think it makes people more likely to roll their eyes and walk away from even trying to be inclusive.

[SKL]

Well I have been thinking about this some more, and I think we should give serious thought to chocolate and tobacco at least.  Both appropriated from cultures in which they had ceremonial meaning.  Cultures that white man oppressed.  White people should have no right to enjoy chocolate or tobacco, and especially should not be allowed to sell it commercially.  That seems pretty clear.

Edited November 24, 2015 by SKL

[poppy]

I have little to add to this conversation except to recommend a fabulous episode of Fresh Air on the book The Goddess Post. It tells the story of a fascinating time and a fascinating woman-- and talk about how little our vision of Yoga has to do with India.

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/06/01/411202468/those-yoga-poses-may-not-be-ancient-after-all-and-maybe-thats-ok

[Callie]

I'm trying to imagine what would still exist if we took away all cultural appropriation according to that article. All Martial arts, gone. Most if not all dance styles, gone. Most music, gone.

 

Even my favorite Asian restaurant, owned by a family from China, would be suspect. After all, they have Hunan, Mandarin, and Cantonese sections on their menu. Not to mention the Sushi and Pad Thai.

 

It would be a pretty boring world.

Nothing in the USA could exist except Native American stuff done only by 100% Native Americans.

[The Girls' Mom]

If it weren't for cultural appropriation, I would have no culture at all.  My ancestry is just about as mixed bag as you can get.  I have no cultural roots, unless you count TN hillbilly.  (Which didn't even exist a couple hundred years ago).  If I didn't integrate other cultures into my life, I'd pretty much have to sit in a cave and eat bugs.  

PC-ness is getting ridiculous, IMO.  It is making everyone so afraid of offending someone that walking out of your front door is anxiety inducing.  

[Callie]

If it weren't for cultural appropriation, I would have no culture at all.  My ancestry is just about as mixed bag as you can get.  I have no cultural roots, unless you count TN hillbilly.  (Which didn't even exist a couple hundred years ago).  If I didn't integrate other cultures into my life, I'd pretty much have to sit in a cave and eat bugs.  

 

PC-ness is getting ridiculous, IMO.  It is making everyone so afraid of offending someone that walking out of your front door is anxiety inducing.  

Exactly.  People in the USA could do nothing because everything has been appropriated.  And I am a KY hillbilly so I'd have to sit in that cave with you.

[SKL]

Hillbilly is a culture!  I'll bet someone somewhere is appropriating hillbilly culture right now.

[poppy]

If it weren't for cultural appropriation, I would have no culture at all.  My ancestry is just about as mixed bag as you can get.  I have no cultural roots, unless you count TN hillbilly.  (Which didn't even exist a couple hundred years ago).  If I didn't integrate other cultures into my life, I'd pretty much have to sit in a cave and eat bugs.  

 

PC-ness is getting ridiculous, IMO.  It is making everyone so afraid of offending someone that walking out of your front door is anxiety inducing.  

Except that isn't true at all?  One class got cancelled, the instructor made a big stink, the press loved it because it's so mockable. 

[Slojo]

Oh sure but what about all the other questions this raises?

• I'm drinking coffee.  Not a local crop!
• I have prints of artworks in my room - artworks from various countries.  Also a table cover from Peru.
• I'm wearing a t-shirt bought in India that has the Aum symbol on it.
• I'm wearing pajama pants.  Pyjamas are appropriated from another culture.
• A nearby street is called Alla, not an American name I think - is it OK to drive on it?
• Was I awful to adopt kids from another country?  I guess that goes without saying, but seeing as how it's a done deal, what about anything I do for them so they can experience their birth culture?  Appropriation!
• I sometimes wear khaki pants.  Khaki!
• I had Chinese food for dinner.
• I will be attending our TaeKwonDo class tomorrow night.
• We have a patio out back.  Patio!
• My kids play music from various countries on instruments of various origins.
• Soccer.  Is soccer originally an American sport?
• About a third of our furniture and artworks are traditional Chinese designs, imported from China.  Worse, my grandma used to learn how to make "Chinese" paintings.
• Sometimes I eat Frankfurters and French fries, though not usually on the same day.
• Some of the trees and plants in my yard are not native.
• I used to read daily in 10 different languages, including the holy books from several different religions.  While listening to music from different origins, and sitting in a bamboo chair.  Wearing pajamas.  Sipping coffee.
• I know how to write my name in about 8 different scripts.  I have done this in front of people.
• The days of the week are appropriated from another culture.  So are the months of the year.  And the numbering of years.  And our system of weights and measures.  And our numbering system, not to mention various mathematical studies.  For that matter, so is the English language, if you think about it.
• What about chocolate?  Surely we must all recognize the cultural appropriation of chocolate.
• I do yoga on a daily basis.  But compared to chocolate, yoga seems minor in comparison.

You're right, I'm having fun wasting time on this because I'm procrastinating.  I don't recommend that others do the same from sunup to sundown.

 

Okay, you are not capable of having a serious discussion about it. I'm sorry you are in a place where that's the case, but I'm sure to see you next thread about race, culture or identity. It clearly impacts your life and perspective on the world more than you'd care to admit. But I'll set my clock by your outrage over "how people just can't. get. over. it." It's more reliable than this clock as you don't miss a beat. 

 

If it weren't for cultural appropriation, I would have no culture at all.  My ancestry is just about as mixed bag as you can get.  I have no cultural roots, unless you count TN hillbilly.  (Which didn't even exist a couple hundred years ago).  If I didn't integrate other cultures into my life, I'd pretty much have to sit in a cave and eat bugs.  

 

PC-ness is getting ridiculous, IMO.  It is making everyone so afraid of offending someone that walking out of your front door is anxiety inducing.  

Some of that's probably true (and, you, just like other thoughtful human beings must come to terms with that), but your family and individual history isn't entirely made up of cultural appropriation -- there are most certainly many instances of exchange and blending of cultures. That's what mixed ancestry means.

 

Also, no one is suggesting that cultural appropriation is always clear cut, but when it is it is. And I guess I expect more of you than to mock it. Sure, some PC stories are ridiculous, but instances of PC-ness like this article are actually quite rare. SKL came up with a faux list of concerns, but what are the real concerns with PCness that have really affected your life negatively? I've yet to hear a real story about that. 

[SKL]

I would have thought yoga class was a "faux concern," but apparently it isn't.

 

I don't think the pro-PC people are fully aware (or want to admit to themselves) just how far this stuff can go if it gets enough encouragement.

 

Apparently levity is an early casualty.  100% of my Indian friends would laugh with me about this yoga stuff, but how dare I chuckle.

 

And honestly, that's a serious issue when people are not allowed to laugh.  Laughter is important to our health.  If you take everything too seriously and have to walk around anxious about how your every word, move, and thought might be "unacceptable" to someone, that just can't be good.

Edited November 24, 2015 by SKL

[Ravin]

The food thing doesn't make sense.  The tomato wasn't introduced to Italy from South America in the 1500's.  Think of all the culinary delights we'd be missing out on if that never happened or if someone poo pooed that as cultural appropriation.  Food as it exists today is a fusion of many cultures. 

 

 

Pretty sure it was. And there are food crops all over the world that are culturally-valued staples which didn't originate in those places, going various directions.

[SKL]

Here's a question though.  What about things we "appropriate" to make the other person more comfortable?  Like bowing instead of shaking hands with Japanese business clients.  Or being careful to use my right hand for certain actions with South Asians.  Or taking off my shoes when I enter people's houses.  Or eating Indian food with my hand instead of a fork.  Or wearing an Indian outfit (with or without a bindi) to an Indian-American event.

 

I think the only fair conclusion is that assimilating aspects of another's culture, done with a kind heart, is more likely to be a right choice than a wrong choice.

[8circles]

I'm going to be honest and say that I don't really understand when it's cultural appropriation and when it isn't.  Some of the silly examples also don't sound too different to me.  

 

However, I think it's crazy to say we shouldn't worry about it at all.  I don't think it's right to be so disrespectful to different cultures.  I do my best to respect other cultures and hope that my good intentions count for something.  I have appreciated this discussion and the one about kids dressing as NA.  I have learned a lot and am thinking about how I can do better.

 

I do have a very strong cultural background that is often appropriated within a certain religion.  I don't share that religion.  It is so incredibly irritating and disrespectful for people to assume that culture and use it a kind-of secret-handshake to belong to a religious group yet exclude me, despite the fact that I know the super-duper secret-handshakes because they're actually mine.  

 

That sounds harsher than I mean and I realize I don't "own" a culture.  It's the closest thing I can come to explaining it. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is a huge difference between an oppressive culture forcing another culture to adopt their language and customs and cultures learning and sharing with each other.  Both have happened over  history - way before the British Empire even. 

 

I have no beef with a culture deciding that they want to open a McDonald's franchise (get the pun there?).  If the people aren't interested, the business won't flourish.  I have no problem with people deciding to learn other languages or learn a music style or art style or a martial art.  My mom took Ikebana (flower arranging classes) when we were in Japan.  No one took offense.  I learned Sashiko (a Japanese embroidery style) and other than bemusement from some friends who were amused because I knew more about it than they did, no one blinked an eye. 

 

I do have a problem with someone taking their interest and then pretending to be someone of that culture (that lady in Spokane who pretended to be AA being one example).  I don't have a problem if someone just obviously enjoys another culture (like an Anglophile who doesn't pretend to actually be British). 

 

When it comes to religious things I think people have more of a problem if people haven't actually converted to that religion.  I haven't heard of people being upset about a Westerner converting to Buddhism for example.  But many thinks which had a root in religion can also be done in a secular way.  Yoga is a prime example of that. 

 

Edited because I apparently haven't learned grammar. 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Jean in Newcastle

[Word Nerd]

Sure, some PC stories are ridiculous, but instances of PC-ness like this article are actually quite rare.

 

I disagree. They're becoming more common, especially on college campuses. 

[Slojo]

Here's a question though.  What about things we "appropriate" to make the other person more comfortable?  Like bowing instead of shaking hands with Japanese business clients.  Or being careful to use my right hand for certain actions with South Asians.  Or taking off my shoes when I enter people's houses.  Or eating Indian food with my hand instead of a fork.  Or wearing an Indian outfit (with or without a bindi) to an Indian-American event.

 

I think the only fair conclusion is that assimilating aspects of another's culture, done with a kind heart, is more likely to be a right choice than a wrong choice.

 

But that's all happening in the context of equal exchange and respect. That's great. It really is. But if there were some aspect of that culture that would not be appropriate to partake in unless you were a part of that culture or had gone through a set of rituals to have earned the honor surely you would not.  Going to the bar mitzvah is fine, but asking to read from the Torah yourself is not. Taking a dip in the baptismal pool is not - even if you are just generally curious to see what it's like. It's just a variation on understanding social cues that's not so hard to understand.

[SKL]

But that's all happening in the context of equal exchange and respect. That's great. It really is. But if there were some aspect of that culture that would not be appropriate to partake in unless you were a part of that culture or had gone through a set of rituals to have earned the honor surely you would not.  Going to the bar mitzvah is fine, but asking to read from the Torah yourself is not. Taking a dip in the baptismal pool is not - even if you are just generally curious to see what it's like. It's just a variation on understanding social cues that's not so hard to understand.

 

Understanding social cues - I'm all for it.  Trust me, I've had lots of experience with many diverse cultures and I'm fairly good with social cues, and also with having the humility to ask the person I'm with if xyz is OK or not.

 

That's not what I'm seeing here though.  I'm seeing an impersonal edict with rules that have nothing to do with social cues.  There is no face-to-face here.  The person to be protected from offense might not even actually exist in this construct.

 

[Katy]

...

 

 

No Katy, I've not heard about folks suggesting Thai food as appropriation. It is food that is being freely shared, and everyone acknowledges its origins. Surely you are being hyperbolic. I don't know what to say about the Halloween costumes that hasn't been said. Not sure what's in your craw about that. If you (not necessarily you personally) have some big need to dress up as an indigenous person or a geisha, you know, you can do that. Just don't expect any applause for it (and maybe be prepared for the stinkeye in some cases). But, by all means, BE YOU! I'm not the boss of you, I can only tell you what something might mean to another culture, and you take that or you don't - it is what it is. 

 

....

 

The quote function isn't working for me, but to respond to this... Given that I linked to major media coverage of what happened with the University of Washington trying to shame kids from wearing any Halloween costumes that are from another culture (don't wear Hawaiian shirts or leis!!!) and an article about food appropriation that was at best about an insecure woman looking for things to complain about because of her shame over some childhood remarks and her insistence that bone broth is from her culture instead of a worldwide traditional recipe...  Yes, I am serious. Perhaps you don't hear about these topics in your circles, but I do. And it's gone way overboard.  Clearly these discussions are limited to my friends.

 

The New York Times and the Washington Post are read by almost no one... said no one... ever.