In your opinion, what does prayer do?

[albeto.]

This is in reference to a lot of comments and threads, both recently and generally. Someone mentioned in another thread that prayer can be the equivalent in energy expenditure as making a meal. My first thought was, But when one spends the time making a meal, there's a meal to show for it and that meal can be eaten, enjoyed, and converted into energy. Its consequences can be observed (directly and indirectly). But what does prayer *do*? How does it work? Specifically? 

[wintermom]

I don't have the references to back this up, but from what I've read about the measured positive effects of prayer on the person praying is similar to the effects of stress reducing strategies (e.g., positive self-talk, meditation, deep breathing, etc.). There are measurable outcomes, but sadly no yummy meal to eat.

 

I haven't read any articles on the effects of prayer on a person or situation that someone prays for. I would expect that this would be pretty difficult to measure. If someone knew that they were being prayed for, there is probably a chance of similar possitive effects of stress reduction, and would be measurable. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Depends on who you talk to.  There are many reasons people pray.  For some it can be a reminder that they are not alone.  For others it is how they connect with God and seek his help.  For others it is simply a way to reach out to comfort those in need, even if you cannot be physically with them.  Like saying to someone "I care."  "I am there for you."  As mentioned above it can reduce stress.  Plus many, many other reasons, I'm sure.

 

I hope you get answers that will help you understand prayer and that this thread does not derail.  This is an interesting question.  I expect there will be interesting answers. 

 

Best wishes, Albeto.

 

[albeto.]

I don't have the references to back this up, but from what I've read about the measured positive effects of prayer on the person praying is similar to the effects of stress reducing strategies (e.g., positive self-talk, meditation, deep breathing, etc.). There are measurable outcomes, but sadly no yummy meal to eat.

 

I am familiar with the internal affect, however, the same behavior (meditation) works without invoking any gods. What about praying for events? People are praying for Charleston, SC. What does that do? How does prayer work in that situation? Does God wait for enough requests, the right requests, a sincere enough request? Then does he go in and move things around in the environment? Rearrange molecules in the brain to inspire peace? Kwim? 

[regentrude]

 Does God wait for enough requests, the right requests, a sincere enough request? Then does he go in and move things around in the environment? Rearrange molecules in the brain to inspire peace? Kwim? 

 

It seems obvious to me that God does none of these things. Otherwise I'd have a hard time accepting that the Jews in the holocaust simply did not pray sincerely enough or that there weren't enough requests. So, it clearly does not work this way.

 

I believe in the internal effects of prayer on the praying person, and on the effects of communal prayer as a very powerful connecting experience - but either of those effects could be achieved by similar means for non-believers without invoking a deity. For believers, connecting with their deity plays an important role, of course.

 

My personal view is that praying about a decision clarifies the person's thoughts, crystallizes the important aspects, does something in their mind to come to a conclusion. Non-believers might be meditating about the decision and accomplish the same through connecting to their inner wisdom. Even when I was Christian, I could never believe that God grants wishes if I just pray hard enough - this did not mesh with my experience of people undergoing horrible suffering. (ETA: In my decade of religious instruction in my church, the pastors also never claimed that this was how prayer worked. )

 

You specifically asked about praying for somebody/something: I think it helps the people who receive those prayers if they know others share in their pain. I do not believe that praying for somebody who does not know about it accomplishes anything.

 

ETA: Ritual is important in spirituality, whether within a religion or without, and prayer is part of the rituals of religion. There is something comforting and nurturing about rituals, and reciting the Lord's Prayer in time of crisis is helpful to the praying Christian. A pagan friend of mine found comfort, sustenance, and a feeling of support and connection when she was almost dying from massive blood loss during her miscarriage by chanting a song that held spiritual meaning for her. I think the mechanisms through which both work are similar.

[Carol in Cal.]

Prayer obeys God, Who tells us to 'pray without ceasing'.

It influences Him, Who tells us that He changed His mind based on some prayers.

It gives us the opportunity to talk to the God of the universe, which is really quite remarkable, and He promises to hear us, which is even more remarkable, when we pray in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Functionally it also tends to align us with Him, in that while praying we are thinking about Him, and often recall what He teaches and wants, and what His characteristics are while praying to Him.  Although this is not a specific Biblical promise, it is observable in some Biblical prayers, particularly in some of the Psalms.

 

[Anne in CA]

Well, I believe that prayer works because when God made people (maybe even Adam in a garden, lol), he "breathed" his spirit into people, giving people a small part of what makes God, God. When I pray, whether or not I pray in Jesus name and even if I do not realize I am praying, but merely focusing on something with my words/ thoughts, I release the same unknown creative power that God used to create the world I live in. When a group of people does this I have experienced it to be very powerful. 

 

Now, my belief is that even an "unbeliever" has a spirit, and they hold as much creative power as a believer. I think that you, Albeto, can focus on something and release as much spiritual power into the universe as I can as a Christian if you want to, or even if you do not know or believe that you are doing it. I believe that the advancement of physics will explain how this works to a point, but that only God knows how it really works inside and out.

 

I my prayers have been answered for better or worse in many, many different ways, I can't reduce God to a formula. There probably is an exact science to how prayer works, but modern science is a long way from figuring that out.

[wintermom]

I am familiar with the internal affect, however, the same behavior (meditation) works without invoking any gods. What about praying for events? People are praying for Charleston, SC. What does that do? How does prayer work in that situation? Does God wait for enough requests, the right requests, a sincere enough request? Then does he go in and move things around in the environment? Rearrange molecules in the brain to inspire peace? Kwim? 

 

Sounds like you are trolling.   Are you expecting to find the scientific evidence for God's work on this forum? What is the purpose of these questions, and then why bring in the SC tragedy. Is this a sympathetic and sincere post? 

 

 

[Love]

.

Edited November 19, 2015 by Love

[albeto.]

Prayer obeys God, Who tells us to 'pray without ceasing'.

It influences Him, Who tells us that He changed His mind based on some prayers.

It gives us the opportunity to talk to the God of the universe, which is really quite remarkable, and He promises to hear us, which is even more remarkable, when we pray in the Name of Jesus Christ.

Functionally it also tends to align us with Him, in that while praying we are thinking about Him, and often recall what He teaches and wants, and what His characteristics are while praying to Him.  Although this is not a specific Biblical promise, it is observable in some Biblical prayers, particularly in some of the Psalms.

 

This makes it sound as if God knows the best thing to do, but ignores or refuses to do it until/unless people can convince him otherwise (through proving their loyalty through obedience).

 

But how does prayer work in the physical realm? Does God rearrange molecules to provide a desirable environment upon request? And what variables determine a successful prayer petition from an unsuccessful one?

 

Does it have an effect outside the individual? And if so, how? 

[albeto.]

Sounds like you are trolling. 

 

I'm not surprised it sounds like this to some. It must put some people in a very uncomfortable spot. I'm asking a question that is difficult if not impossible to answer. At least, in my opinion it is impossible to answer. But others are quite confident in their opinions and so it is those ideas I'm seeking - the ones I am not familiar with. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It doesn't do a damn thing for me. 

[fraidycat]

Sounds like you are trolling.

Or asking a question.

[albeto.]

Well, I believe that prayer works because when God made people (maybe even Adam in a garden, lol), he "breathed" his spirit into people, giving people a small part of what makes God, God. When I pray, whether or not I pray in Jesus name and even if I do not realize I am praying, but merely focusing on something with my words/ thoughts, I release the same unknown creative power that God used to create the world I live in. When a group of people does this I have experienced it to be very powerful. 

 

Now, my belief is that even an "unbeliever" has a spirit, and they hold as much creative power as a believer. I think that you, Albeto, can focus on something and release as much spiritual power into the universe as I can as a Christian if you want to, or even if you do not know or believe that you are doing it. I believe that the advancement of physics will explain how this works to a point, but that only God knows how it really works inside and out.

 

I my prayers have been answered for better or worse in many, many different ways, I can't reduce God to a formula. There probably is an exact science to how prayer works, but modern science is a long way from figuring that out.

 

If this creative spirit exists, could one see it objectively ever? Or does it require belief to see?

 

And if it cannot be seen objectively and only through belief, does that mean all beliefs contain this creative power, or only certain ones? 

[OneStepAtATime]

Albeto, I respect you and your intellect but I don't think you are actually seeking an open dialogue here, even though you may genuinely believe that you are.  You keep looking for concrete, scientific answers for things of a religious nature.  You have sought them in many threads and have challenged many on their beliefs because they cannot produce Scientific evidence to your satisfaction.  I am all for asking questions, especially if someone is genuinely interested in another point of view, not just trying to prove people wrong or start an argument.  You are a very thinking person.  You seem to want to seek out information and understanding.  That's great.  

 

On the flip side, though, I think you are also somehow trying to prove (maybe subconsciously?) that anyone who believes in a religion/deities is wrong.  Conversations like that usually go nowhere.  I think the answers you seek may not exist, certainly not in a form you would be willing to accept.  There are times when there simply aren't any concrete, scientifically provable, answers.  That doesn't bother me in the least.  I do not feel the need to explain or challenge every person who has a different way of viewing the Universe than I do.  

 

It does appear to confuse/stress you.  I'm curious.  Why?  Why do you ask these types of questions over and over, when it is obvious at this point that no one is going to give you an answer that will satisfy you?  

[albeto.]

Or asking a question.

 

I expect another poster specifically to lobby the same accusation. This isn't unexpected, especially in a community where certain beliefs are expected to be respected, and where respect includes the assumption of possible credibility. If I (or anyone really) rejects that possibility, it can feel like an attack. It's one thing to say so in the midst of a conversation, quite another to start a conversation based on such things. 

 

But you're right, it is simply a question I'm asking. I have no bait and switch planned, no nefarious tactic in the wings. I'm just curious how people understand prayer to work - what it does, specifically.

 

I understand how it works to calm an individual, but not how it supposedly works across time and space. 

[wintermom]

I'm not surprised it sounds like this to some. It must put some people in a very uncomfortable spot. I'm asking a question that is difficult if not impossible to answer. At least, in my opinion it is impossible to answer. But others are quite confident in their opinions and so it is those ideas I'm seeking - the ones I am not familiar with. 

 

I editted my original response. What is the purpose of this post? Are you attempting to offer sympathy or ruffle feathers? A pastor was murdered. It's safe to say that he would have been one to ask for prayers. So whether you believe they have any effect or not, whether they are measurable according to your tools or not, prayers seem completely appropriate at this time.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I think I somewhat understand where albeto is coming from.  I went through a period of asking a lot of questions.  For me, I guess I wanted to leave no stone unturned or unconsidered.  Then after awhile I knew what I believed and didn't believe and at this point I don't have any more questions about it.  I don't even really feel like talking about it most of the time. 

 

I could be wrong, but that's how I see it.

 

I don't believe prayer is harmful.  It probably offers comfort to a lot of people.  It's possibly a way to work things out in one's mind.  I work things out in my mind.  I just don't call it prayer, and it doesn't involve talking to anyone.

 

 

[albeto.]

Albeto, I respect you and your intellect but I don't think you are actually seeking an open dialogue here, even though you may genuinely believe that you are.  You keep looking for concrete, scientific answers for things of a religious nature.  You have sought them in many threads and have challenged many on their beliefs because they cannot produce Scientific evidence to your satisfaction.  I am all for asking questions, especially if someone is genuinely interested in another point of view, not just trying to prove people wrong or start an argument.  You are a very thinking person.  You seem to want to seek out information and understanding.  That's great.  

 

On the flip side, though, I think you are also somehow trying to prove (maybe subconsciously?) that anyone who believes in a religion/deities is wrong.  Conversations like that usually go nowhere.  I think the answers you seek may not exist, certainly not in a form you would be willing to accept.  There are times when there simply aren't any concrete, scientifically provable, answers.  That doesn't bother me in the least.  I do not feel the need to explain or challenge every person who has a different way of viewing the Universe than I do.  

 

It does appear to confuse/stress you.  I'm curious.  Why?  Why do you ask these types of questions over and over, when it is obvious at this point that no one is going to give you an answer that will satisfy you?  

 

Not stress, lol! Comments change over time. People explain how prayer offers personal peace, and yet there are threads asking for prayer for physical effects across great areas of land (the church massacre in South Carolina, for example). What do people expect their prayers to do? 

 

When you say I'm looking for concrete, scientific answers, you're only half right. I'm not looking for anything concrete, but a scientific method is a method that weeds out opinion from fact. If it is a fact that prayer works, and people believe this to be a true statement, then there should be some factual elements that even I can see. Does that make sense? Otherwise, it's no different than Harry Potter magic and words make things happen without effecting the laws of physics. If that's the case, how is that understood to work? Surely someone has an image of what their prayer does when it is released from their minds. Am I really the only one who thinks about these things? I don't think so, but maybe?

[albeto.]

I editted my original response. What is the purpose of this post? Are you attempting to offer sympathy or ruffle feathers? A pastor was murdered. It's safe to say that he would have been one to ask for prayers. So whether you believe they have any effect or not, whether they are measurable according to your tools or not, prayers seem completely appropriate at this time.

 

I was offering a current example. Prayer is often sought after in times of disaster. This should come as no surprise.

 

Yes, a pastor, and what, 8 other people were shot? That's horrifying. It blows my mind.

 

It doesn't change my question, and it doesn't suppress my curiosity. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I imagine there could be some scientific evidence found for the affects of prayer.  I doubt there is affects in the sense that it changes outcomes, but I imagine it might improve stuff like outlook, reduce stress, etc. 

No you aren't the only one who thinks about these things.  Definitely not.

 

 

[bolt.]

I think that prayer has a strong effect on the one who prays, including the possibility of learning, changing or being influenced towards actions and attitudes that are part of a strategic response by God.

 

My ideas around prayer somewhat revolve around the concepts of agency and consent.

 

I believe that God does nothing to compromise human agency without the consent of that person. However, if a person asks for help (open ended or specific) or if a person is willing to be helped, and someone else asks on their behalf -- that a lot of good can be done.

 

I also think that God is willing to manipulate a lot of coincidences into good shapes if people request it, and if it doesn't involve interfering with the agency of other people.

 

Praying for events involves requesting that (a) people who are open to having interior working the Spirit would recieve it, even if that isn't where their mind is at right now, and ( b ) that various kinds of co-incidence and acts of personal good will would be supernaturally enhanced and extra effective. So, I think that that is what it 'does'.

 

I don't think God wais for enough requests, or the right kind. I think God works where God is wanted, and that the prayers of the people are a part of that: not in terms of quantity, but more of a kind of participation or co-work.

 

This idea is tied to my concept of the 'image of God' -- that humans have a role to represent and mediate God's providence in creation. That a lack of prayer interferes with God's plan to care for all things well via human involvement -- that if humans don't want to be involved, God may refrain from leapfrogging the role (and agency) he has assigned us.

 

I don't think God moves things or brain molecules directly, usually. (I do think miracles are real, just that they are rare and providence is more normal as a general expectation.)

 

As such I think humans recieve comfort/peace from God by relating to God. I think that the shift would happen in the ordinary ways that relationships and communication between people makes changes to the brain. Or, if not by directly 'relating to' God, then by the words and actions of another human person, who themself is under the transformation and inspiration that comes from relating to God... Or even with more links in that chain.

 

As for concrete physical things, I've mentioned that I think God is involved in below-the-radar manipulation of coincidences: facilitating various things, smoothing paths, redirecting problems. This could involve nudging people (not in ways that violate their agency) or some inatimate molecule manipulation.

 

I hope your questions are curious, not fight-picking. It can be hard to tell, but I have answered in good faith with this accurate description of what my thoughts are. I really hope this doesn't get out of hand.

[CAMom]

I'm not surprised it sounds like this to some. It must put some people in a very uncomfortable spot. I'm asking a question that is difficult if not impossible to answer. At least, in my opinion it is impossible to answer. But others are quite confident in their opinions and so it is those ideas I'm seeking - the ones I am not familiar with. 

 

I thought you used to be a Christian? Or did I mix you up with someone else? Wouldn't you, then, know the answer to the question? 

 

The question doesn't put me in an uncomfortable spot at all. It is not difficult nor impossible to answer.

[albeto.]

I thought you used to be a Christian? Or did I mix you up with someone else? Wouldn't you, then, know the answer to the question? 

 

The question doesn't put me in an uncomfortable spot at all. It is not difficult nor impossible to answer.

 

I didn't know the answer, and comforted myself by saying it's a mystery. 

[Stacia]

I'm the one who started the Charleston prayer/good thoughts thread.

 

Personally, I'm agnostic, & have no idea if/why/how prayer might or might not work. But, since I love the people & the city of Charleston & this tragic event happened at a church, I included 'prayer' as the first part of the request because it seems fitting for the victims & survivors of the shooting (& their families), along with being a practice that many around the world (& on this board) practice.

 

In this case, to me, asking for prayer seemed like a fitting request for those who do practice prayer & appreciate prayers said on their behalf. I hope it can offer comfort in that way, regardless whether or not I personally practice it myself (if that makes sense). Maybe it is also a hope to remain open-hearted & empathetic to our fellows?

[albeto.]

 I really hope this doesn't get out of hand.

 

Me too. Thank you for your reply. I have to run the dog to the vet so I'll be gone a bit. I didn't want you think I was ignoring you.

 

:)

[Catwoman]

Me too. Thank you for your reply. I have to run the dog to the vet so I'll be gone a bit. I didn't want you think I was ignoring you.

 

:)

I hope your dog is OK, albeto, and that this is just a routine checkup or something.

[fraidycat]

In my opinion and experience, prayer does ...nothing. It's one of the many varied reasons I no longer take part in any religion.

 

I do kind of believe in the power of positive thought/good energy, but not in any way that I could articulate. It doesn't involve asking anyone for anything or assuming any outcome is because of such thoughts.

 

I also think prayer can help a person feel like they have some control in an uncontrollable situation, of that makes sense. There's nothing I can do, but I can do this.

[Amy in NH]

Makes the pray-er feel better.

[Carol in Cal.]

This makes it sound as if God knows the best thing to do, but ignores or refuses to do it until/unless people can convince him otherwise (through proving their loyalty through obedience).

 

 

I said nothing about obedience, and I find your reading that into what I did say very telling.

 

I'm written all I plan to about this topic--once my words get distorted this way, it's easy to see that there is no point in further engagement.  Peace to you.

[fraidycat]

I said nothing about obedience, and I find your reading that into what I did say very telling.

 

I'm written all I plan to about this topic--once my words get distorted this way, it's easy to see that there is no point in further engagement. Peace to you.

Your first words are "prayer obeys God".

 

That is not "nothing about obedience". She did not distort those words, they are right in front of her eyes. And mine. And anybody else reading.

[Guest]

I pray because God commands it and prescribed it, specifically, as one of two means of communication in the relationship of a believer to him. The other means is through the study of and meditation (intense thinking and memorizing) upon Scripture. If God is outside and independent of time as the creator of it, it stands to reason that prayer would bridge that gap because he created it to be so. I don't know the exact mechanism because I'm not God, and he didn't see fit to describe the details to me. But the command is clear, obeying is straightforward, and the blessing for myself and those I pray for has been assured, even if I never understand how it all comes to fruition in my lifetime.

 

So I do it. By faith and with full peace and confidence that comes from knowing it is right, good, pure, and holy, even if the specifics are beyond my understanding. So much of the universe is, why should prayer cause me strife where the suspension of planets in space or the particle behavior of light doesn't? My soul is content with the explanation in scripture and the follow through, I don't need to see it from the divine side to know it is commanded and does what God explicitly says it does in scripture.

[fraidycat]

I actually have sort of a spin-off question that I've been mulling over for a couple weeks, but am having trouble with wording so as not to sound like a d-bag when I ask it. I'm out the door now, but hopefully can use the momentum and answers within this thread to find the right words.

[JoJosMom]

Sounds like you are trolling.   Are you expecting to find the scientific evidence for God's work on this forum? What is the purpose of these questions, and then why bring in the SC tragedy. Is this a sympathetic and sincere post? 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I find this latest post particularly nasty given the call to prayer by board members who are facing extremely difficult personal situations. Given this poster's history, I am highly skeptical that the she has suddenly become open-minded and wants to learn about prayer.  Just more of her nasty mocking disguised as a "discussion."

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't find the question uncomfortable at all, and am a little offended that you think silly, weak people of faith can't help getting all squirmy in the face of someone else's doubts or questions, Albeto. Obviously, except for those reared in the Bible Belt who never even enjoyed a prodigal era, people who are religious now once weren't. And becoming religious doesn't mean you have no further questions or doubts for the rest of your life.

 

So I'm not cringing or cowering at the question but I'm not answering it, either. Wrong end of the stick. My reasons for praying won't make you believe in my God. If you knew my god you'd know why I talk to him, but my talking to him doesn't make the two of you acquainted, does it?

[fraidycat]

I don't find the question uncomfortable at all, and am a little offended that you think silly, weak people of faith can't help getting all squirmy in the face of someone else's doubts or questions, Albeto. Obviously, except for those reared in the Bible Belt who never even enjoyed a prodigal era, people who are religious now once weren't. And becoming religious doesn't mean you have no further questions or doubts for the rest of your life.

 

So I'm not cringing or cowering at the question but I'm not answering it, either. Wrong end of the stick. My reasons for praying won't make you believe in my God. If you knew my god you'd know why I talk to him, but my talking to him doesn't make the two of you acquainted, does it?

Well, given that she asked a question and has been accused of trolling, distorting direct quotes, and stirring the pot - it shows that people DO in fact get squirmy, uncomfortable and downright nasty in the face of someone else's doubts and questions. There is direct evidence right here in this thread.

[fraidycat]

 

:iagree:

 

I find this latest post particularly nasty given the call to prayer by board members who are facing extremely difficult personal situations. Given this poster's history, I am highly skeptical that the she has suddenly become open-minded and wants to learn about prayer. Just more of her nasty mocking disguised as a "discussion."

She specifically asked what prayer will do for those people. How does praying help them? What does it DO? It's a valid question.

 

It's not nasty mocking. It's a real question. One that has not yet been answered, though the OP has been directly attacked by a handful of these "love and pray" type people, including yourself.

 

WWJD? He Sure as hell would NOT call anyone nasty and mocking!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Well, given that she asked a question and has been accused of trolling, distorting direct quotes, and stirring the pot - it shows that people DO in fact get squirmy, uncomfortable and downright nasty in the face of someone else's doubts and questions. There is direct evidence right here in this thread.

What about the majority of us Christians who express understanding and kindness toward other faiths or no faith in this thread, on the op's rather incessant religion threads, and all over these boards on a near daily basis? Are we so normal and rational that we mustn't be allowed to represent Christianity to people who would rather see religious folk as superstitious cowards?

 

Or must it be taken as read that because a few people accuse Albeto of trolling, Christians can't handle questions?

 

I've been hearing that in a few threads here lately, that tone of, "I know you've probably never considered these very deep and uncomfortable probing questions that you can't handle." It's presumptuous and rude. People don't live by their faith, any faith, for decades without having heard it all - often from their own mouths. And most of the questions aren't even deep. They're just some new variation on "I don't believe in God, so since you're not busy prove why you do." Well, faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen. Any religious person offering more proof than that is selling something.

 

It's disrespectful to start a thread about the foolishness of religion every single time the religious folk comfort one another by mentioning the shared tenet of prayer. That's why people use the troll epithet. I don't think it's trolling; that's an unkind and unreasonable accusation. I do find it wearying as these are classical Ed forums and educated people know that some form of religion has always been and will always be part of the human experience. It's not some current phenomenon to constantly put under the microscope at every expression of it. Just my opinion.

[goldberry]

My ideas around prayer somewhat revolve around the concepts of agency and consent.

 

 

 

I found your reply to be very thoughtful and similar to my own opinions.  Thanks for sharing that.

[Anne in CA]

If this creative spirit exists, could one see it objectively ever? Or does it require belief to see?

 

And if it cannot be seen objectively and only through belief, does that mean all beliefs contain this creative power, or only certain ones? 

I believe that the creative spirit could be seen objectively through the evidence of the things it does. For instance, the studies where some hospital patients are prayed for and some are not and the ones who are prayed for get better more quickly. Those are not large studies, but I believe that there is plenty of physical proof to be studied objectively, and that anyone could see it.

 

I do believe that all beliefs contain creative power, not just my own. That said, I believe that SOME of my own beliefs contain truth that other beliefs do not. The truth beliefs contain tell whether or not good things happen as a result of those beliefs. I want to make it clear that I don't know all truth. I know a very little piece. God is so much bigger than me that there is no comparison I could make as far as what I know of God or how spiritual principals work..

[raptor_dad]

I'll take a stab at this... I don't self identify as Christian, though DW and the kids are regular church goers.

 

I think viewing prayer as a mindfulness/meditative practice is great. God can manifest his will through the works of the faithful. James 2:17 speaks to this. Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus shows that altering a person's inner state through prayer or divine intervention can have profound effects[1]. If praying for Charleston leads the prayer to be more empathetic or to become active in a social justice movement... that has profound ramifications in the real world regardless of whether it was a result of some sort of mindfulness or God's grace or whether those two are actually the same thing.

 

As to prayers for the sick.... if the recipient knows about those prayers, I tend to think of it as a version of the placebo effect. This sort of psychosocial intervention is certainly real... Is it God's work... I guess that depends on whether it is a faith healer, witch doctor, or little red pill...

 

I do not believe generic prayers for say earthquake victims in Nepal have any effects unless it is through some direct human agency on the prayer's part.

 

So can prayer work... sure. Is it due to a direct Godly intervention? I'm not personally convinced.

 

[1] ETA: I view Paul's conversion as an epileptic seizure or similar... The fact that it triggered a conversion event speaks more to Paul's internal state than some direct intervention by God for me.

[goldberry]

Well, I believe that prayer works because when God made people (maybe even Adam in a garden, lol), he "breathed" his spirit into people, giving people a small part of what makes God, God. When I pray, whether or not I pray in Jesus name and even if I do not realize I am praying, but merely focusing on something with my words/ thoughts, I release the same unknown creative power that God used to create the world I live in. When a group of people does this I have experienced it to be very powerful. 

 

Now, my belief is that even an "unbeliever" has a spirit, and they hold as much creative power as a believer. I think that you, Albeto, can focus on something and release as much spiritual power into the universe as I can as a Christian if you want to, or even if you do not know or believe that you are doing it. I believe that the advancement of physics will explain how this works to a point, but that only God knows how it really works inside and out.

 

I my prayers have been answered for better or worse in many, many different ways, I can't reduce God to a formula. There probably is an exact science to how prayer works, but modern science is a long way from figuring that out.

 

This is a very interesting explanation!  I will be thinking about it...

[AlmiraGulch]

 

It's disrespectful to start a thread about the foolishness of religion every single time the religious folk comfort one another by mentioning the shared tenet of prayer. That's why people use the troll epithet. I don't think it's trolling; that's an unkind and unreasonable accusation. I do find it wearying as these are classical Ed forums and educated people know that some form of religion has always been and will always be part of the human experience. It's not some current phenomenon to constantly put under the microscope at every expression of it. Just my opinion.

 

I understand the history of the posting.  I do not think that this particular post is trolling or unkind.  It's a legitimate question, one that I've had myself many times, as I know others have as well.  

 

It has been established that most people understand how prayer can impact the pray-er, but only a couple here have bothered to even try to answer what it does for the person/people/institution/whatever is being prayed for.  

 

Do people think that prayer can save lives?  If so, how?  Is it because it is thought that prayer can directly influence God?  I've seen one answer here that seems to specifically say no, and yet another that seems to say that yes, it can.

 

If one is of the belief that prayer directly influences God, then what about when it doesn't? Because in my own experience, it seems that's when the mysteries of faith, and the fact that God has a better plan, are referenced.  But if that's the case, and God already knows His plan, then I'm back to questioning the usefulness of the prayer in the first place, except to bring comfort to the pray-er and the prayed for, and also because the Bible says that believers should pray.   I'm not implying that comfort is a bad thing (obviously it isn't), or that one should not follow the directives of one's Holy Book. The question here is around the physical impact on an outcome.  Does prayer have the ability to impact that? 

 

And I'm asking none of this to be disrespectful or rude or hateful or unkind, and I'm certainly not a troll.  I am, however, someone who has always wondered if people actually believed that their prayers could shift an outcome, and, if so, but the outcome is not what was desired....what then?  What does that mean?

[CAMom]

She specifically asked what prayer will do for those people. How does praying help them? What does it DO? It's a valid question.

 

It's not nasty mocking. It's a real question. One that has not yet been answered, though the OP has been directly attacked by a handful of these "love and pray" type people, including yourself.

 

WWJD? He Sure as hell would NOT call anyone nasty and mocking!

 

But, knowing how Christian faith has been handled by albeto makes one believe that once they put out there what prayer does, one will be called foolish, uneducated, not a respecter of science, suffering from cognitive dissonance,  etc. 

 

Why would one share such an intimate thing as prayer when it has been proven that one will not be taken seriously?

[Minerva]

Yes!

 

 

It seems obvious to me that God does none of these things. Otherwise I'd have a hard time accepting that the Jews in the holocaust simply did not pray sincerely enough or that there weren't enough requests. So, it clearly does not work this way.

 

I believe in the internal effects of prayer on the praying person, and on the effects of communal prayer as a very powerful connecting experience - but either of those effects could be achieved by similar means for non-believers without invoking a deity. For believers, connecting with their deity plays an important role, of course.

 

My personal view is that praying about a decision clarifies the person's thoughts, crystallizes the important aspects, does something in their mind to come to a conclusion. Non-believers might be meditating about the decision and accomplish the same through connecting to their inner wisdom. Even when I was Christian, I could never believe that God grants wishes if I just pray hard enough - this did not mesh with my experience of people undergoing horrible suffering. (ETA: In my decade of religious instruction in my church, the pastors also never claimed that this was how prayer worked. )

 

You specifically asked about praying for somebody/something: I think it helps the people who receive those prayers if they know others share in their pain. I do not believe that praying for somebody who does not know about it accomplishes anything.

 

ETA: Ritual is important in spirituality, whether within a religion or without, and prayer is part of the rituals of religion. There is something comforting and nurturing about rituals, and reciting the Lord's Prayer in time of crisis is helpful to the praying Christian. A pagan friend of mine found comfort, sustenance, and a feeling of support and connection when she was almost dying from massive blood loss during her miscarriage by chanting a song that held spiritual meaning for her. I think the mechanisms through which both work are similar.

 

[albeto.]

Praying for events involves requesting that (a) people who are open to having interior working the Spirit would recieve it, even if that isn't where their mind is at right now, and ( b ) that various kinds of co-incidence and acts of personal good will would be supernaturally enhanced and extra effective. So, I think that that is what it 'does'.

 

This is a very helpful explanation. Thank you for taking my question in the vein with which it was intended. 

 

I hope you don't mind if I ask some follow up questions later.

 

[albeto.]

I hope your dog is OK, albeto, and that this is just a routine checkup or something.

 

Thank you, Cat. She's quite fine. My husband found her as a puppy walking along the streets in a neighborhood in which she would have surely been put to terrible use. So he brought her home. We've been finding, and cleaning, various health conditions ever since. This was to check and see if the treatment for mange is working. It's going very well so far. :)

[*Lulu*]

I think that prayer has a strong effect on the one who prays, including the possibility of learning, changing or being influenced towards actions and attitudes that are part of a strategic response by God.

 

My ideas around prayer somewhat revolve around the concepts of agency and consent.

 

I believe that God does nothing to compromise human agency without the consent of that person. However, if a person asks for help (open ended or specific) or if a person is willing to be helped, and someone else asks on their behalf -- that a lot of good can be done.

 

I also think that God is willing to manipulate a lot of coincidences into good shapes if people request it, and if it doesn't involve interfering with the agency of other people.

 

Praying for events involves requesting that (a) people who are open to having interior working the Spirit would recieve it, even if that isn't where their mind is at right now, and ( b ) that various kinds of co-incidence and acts of personal good will would be supernaturally enhanced and extra effective. So, I think that that is what it 'does'.

 

I don't think God wais for enough requests, or the right kind. I think God works where God is wanted, and that the prayers of the people are a part of that: not in terms of quantity, but more of a kind of participation or co-work.

 

This idea is tied to my concept of the 'image of God' -- that humans have a role to represent and mediate God's providence in creation. That a lack of prayer interferes with God's plan to care for all things well via human involvement -- that if humans don't want to be involved, God may refrain from leapfrogging the role (and agency) he has assigned us.

 

I don't think God moves things or brain molecules directly, usually. (I do think miracles are real, just that they are rare and providence is more normal as a general expectation.)

 

As such I think humans recieve comfort/peace from God by relating to God. I think that the shift would happen in the ordinary ways that relationships and communication between people makes changes to the brain. Or, if not by directly 'relating to' God, then by the words and actions of another human person, who themself is under the transformation and inspiration that comes from relating to God... Or even with more links in that chain.

 

As for concrete physical things, I've mentioned that I think God is involved in below-the-radar manipulation of coincidences: facilitating various things, smoothing paths, redirecting problems. This could involve nudging people (not in ways that violate their agency) or some inatimate molecule manipulation.

 

I hope your questions are curious, not fight-picking. It can be hard to tell, but I have answered in good faith with this accurate description of what my thoughts are. I really hope this doesn't get out of hand.

There are many things in this post that resonate with me and I am going to have to spend some time considering them.

 

Personally, I am a Christian who has an uneasy relationship with prayer. I am still breaking down the teachings I grew up with and seeking a way to reconcile my experience with tradition and teaching.

 

My opinion about a whole lot of what Christians do is that it is more frequently cultural expectations, personal preferences, or us vs them thinking than following Christ's teachings. Prayer included.

[Catwoman]

Thank you, Cat. She's quite fine. My husband found her as a puppy walking along the streets in a neighborhood in which she would have surely been put to terrible use. So he brought her home. We've been finding, and cleaning, various health conditions ever since. This was to check and see if the treatment for mange is working. It's going very well so far. :)

I'm glad to hear she is fine. :) It sounds like she was very fortunate that your dh found her before someone else did!

[albeto.]

I said nothing about obedience, and I find your reading that into what I did say very telling.

 

I'm written all I plan to about this topic--once my words get distorted this way, it's easy to see that there is no point in further engagement.  Peace to you.

 

This comment confuses me. I'm sorry you feel I'm trying to trick you, but I'm simply curious what people think prayer does - how it works - what the mechanism of change is.

 

In reply to your first statement, you did say that prayer obeys God, who tells us to pray without ceasing. These were your exact words. They were followed by the comment that these prayers influence him, and he tells you that he changes his mind based on some prayers. The two concepts were one after the other, so I think it's understandable that I would interpret obedience to be related to his changing his mind. If I'm misunderstanding, or if I made erroneous conclusions, I don't mind being corrected. I'm curious, that's why I asked.