Repercussions of Common Core - Pushing Alg I back to 9th grade

[Arcadia]

Conversely, how do you believe that most AoPS students would perform in the other student's place?

They probably slept/daydream in class and after school math. Or doodle like ViHart :lol: It is hard to get a GIEP. I managed to get a personalised/advanced learning plan for my boys only because we use an online public charter and some use independent study public charters for their asynchronous kids. My district offered a grade skip which wasn't something I wanted.

 

There are plenty of math after schoolers in Silicon Valley, some taking the online AoPS classes. The public libraries have the AoPS books from prealgebra to calculus.

Whether that is a reflection of the quality of high school math teachers here is any one's guess. I am assuming Jniter is a math tutor using AoPS for tutoring. Kids in school (and their parents) should not have to dole up cash to get a good math education :(

 

Free summer math classes at public schools are for remedial/credit recovery. The math for credit classes to skip to higher math are by the private schools and cost a lot.

[amsunshine]

I read this article linked above, and I encourage you to read it too. It seems not much has changed since 2011. Why America produces so few engineering students has a lot to do with how high school math is sequenced, but it also has a lot to do with content and developing the background for higher level math.

 

 

After reading that article, it sounds a lot to me like the problem is not necessarily the difficulty of the material being taught, but the teachers.  The teachers don't understand the material they are supposedly teaching.  

 

My dd has a girlfriend who spent the day at our house doing her homework on what was an independent study day for her, while I homeschooled my dds.  At one point, dd's friend was having trouble with her 7th grade math problems and I volunteered to help.  The topic was finding the area of a parallelogram.  The assignment was to draw parallelograms and label the bases and heights of the parallelograms.  She showed me her work that had been completed during a tutoring session with her teacher.  On none of her previous drawings had she correctly identified the height of the parallelogram.  Yet the teacher had marked those drawings all as correct.  I asked dd's friend a few questions about whether she understood how to identify the height of a parallelogram, and she could not do it.  I was mortified.  This poor girl was being tutored by her math teacher, supposedly because her parents felt she needed extra help (and she did), but she was not getting that help.

[regentrude]

Perfect?   Out of that number of kids, none are gifted and talented enough to be accelerated?  Do you think gov't schools should provide services for disabled students?  If so, is only the kids who are on the low side and the middle of the bell curve that have the right to an appropriate education?  I guess the smart kids don't have the same rights all other students.

 

Of course, if people started advocating that disabled students lose their services, there would be a ***justified*** outcry.  Gifted and talented students really do deserve the same consideration.

:iagree:

Liking this was insufficient. It can't be said often enough.

Gifted kids have special needs, too.

[regentrude]

 

Calc 1 is Calc 1. I've never heard of my FIL saying he was going to make his Calc 1 class harder just because he found out the students already took Calc 1. A class is a class and the material is the material.

 

This is not correct. "Calc1" is not equal to "Calc 1". A course using a mainstream formulaic textbook (like Stewart) is not the same as a course using a more theoretical approach. My DD's school has three different levels of "calc 1", designed for students approaching the calc 1 course with different prerequisites.

 

Of course a teacher would, and should, tailor the course to his audience.

I teach physics. There is not "physics" and "class is a class" and "material is material". Even with the same textbook, I can adjust the level of the course to my student population- by selecting different problem, discussing or omitting certain complex topics, composing different exams. And then you can use different texts. The calculus based physics course I teach with a main stream textbook to a mixed audience at a public U where 20% never had any physics and 20% had some sort of calc based high school physics is absolutely not the same as my DD's freshman physics that is taught to a class where every student in the course had calculus based physics before and a student without that would fail miserably.

 

 

Honestly, I don't even know why AP Calc AB was ever offered. It should be BC or nothing. One semester of college Calc spread over an entire HS year (well...until the AP exam in May) is *not* a "college experience" and does the students a disservice. They are not truly experiencing how compact the material is supposed to be at a college level.

 

I disagree. Just because the course does not have the same pace as a college course does not mean students should not be exposed to the material. And then there are majors that only require calc 1, and a student who covered this and did well on AP AB would have mastered the material required for her major. Math is not a race, and I do not see any virtue in working faster.

 

It is up to the college to award credit or not - but taking calc AB over one year is a great learning opportunity for high school students.

[Wildiris]

After reading that article, it sounds a lot to me like the problem is not necessarily the difficulty of the material being taught, but the teachers.  The teachers don't understand the material they are supposedly teaching.  

 

My dd has a girlfriend who spent the day at our house doing her homework on what was an independent study day for her, while I homeschooled my dds.  At one point, dd's friend was having trouble with her 7th grade math problems and I volunteered to help.  The topic was finding the area of a parallelogram.  The assignment was to draw parallelograms and label the bases and heights of the parallelograms.  She showed me her work that had been completed during a tutoring session with her teacher.  On none of her previous drawings had she correctly identified the height of the parallelogram.  Yet the teacher had marked those drawings all as correct.  I asked dd's friend a few questions about whether she understood how to identify the height of a parallelogram, and she could not do it.  I was mortified.  This poor girl was being tutored by her math teacher, supposedly because her parents felt she needed extra help (and she did), but she was not getting that help.

 

I am not a good math teacher, so I am chained to a solutions guide/TE, but what you described is sad and yes, the problem may not be "the difficulty of the material being taught, but the teachers.  The teachers don't understand the material they are supposedly teaching. " Sadly, I might be one of those teachers.

[Lawyer&Mom]

But why mulched? Why would the prof bother to change the lecture, the book, the test questions, etc. just because half the room said they got a 5 on their AP exam?

 

I'm sure the teaching would have been just as abysmal regardless of the make

[Lawyer&Mom]

But why mulched? Why would the prof bother to change the lecture, the book, the test questions, etc. just because half the room said they got a 5 on their AP exam?

 

This was a difficult class with a truly abysmal professor. (In addition to having the fives raise their hands, he also told us on the first day that he didn't want to be teaching the class. Yay for us!) I think the course was designed to be sink or swim, and I think the kids with AP Calc under their belts had much better odds of swimming. These classes and these professors exist, and taking AP Calc in high school is therefore prudent.

[amsunshine]

I am not a good math teacher, so I am chained to a solutions guide/TE, but what you described is sad and yes, the problem may not be "the difficulty of the material being taught, but the teachers.  The teachers don't understand the material they are supposedly teaching. " Sadly, I might be one of those teachers.

 

I'd be willing to bet you aren't!  

 

[Guest]

This is a personal opinion, informed by what I was told by admissions counselors and the my son's high school college prep advisor:

 

Topline:  MOST colleges care far more THAT students have had 4 years of math than the specifics of what the math courses were.  In this scenario, AlgI, Geom, Alg2, PreCalc is a completely respectable math sequence.  That allows for starting AlgebraI in Grade9.  

 

The counselor told me that some colleges PREFER this sequence because the students have started upper math at a mature age, and have been more likely to have grasped it.  That Calculus takes 2 years to complete, anyway, at the high school level, and that even so, most college freshmen have to take it again anyway.

 

The problem that can arise with starting AlgebraI too early is two-fold:  1) Some students are too immature.  and 2), Some students burn out of math too soon, which leaves them without *four years* (as in the four recent years) of high school math.  Some schools are really unimpressed with a no-math year in the senior year...even if the student got through Calculus by his/her junior year.  

 

When you are making a path, do what is right for your student; there is plenty of time to complete a respectable math sequence, and perhaps even a preferable one, even if a student starts AlgebraI in the 9th grade.  

 

 

[amsunshine]

This is a personal opinion, informed by what I was told by admissions counselors and the my son's high school college prep advisor:

 

Some schools are really unimpressed with a no-math year in the senior year...even if the student got through Calculus by his/her junior year.  

 

When you are making a path, do what is right for your student; there is plenty of time to complete a respectable math sequence, and perhaps even a preferable one, even if a student starts AlgebraI in the 9th grade.  

 

Totally agree that the math path needs to be tailored to the student!

 

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road.

 

eta:  I went back and re-read the post because this was so puzzling for me.  I realized that the counselor you were speaking to might not have been educated enough about the possibility of further studies in math after high school calculus.  There are a myriad of options, and the argument that taking calculus junior year would leave a student with only 3 years of math is specious.

[Arcadia]

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!? Never heard of that.

I agree.

Whatever years left after taking Calculus BC and AP Stats would be DE for my district. There need to be math for all four years of public high school (probably A-G requirement, ETA: not A-G but my district just offers 4 years).

I even asked a private high school what if someone did Calc in 9th grade and their reply was three years of DE math from 10-12th grade. They had a lady high school graduate who did that.

 

This article is worth reading regardless of whether your (general) child stop at algebra, PreCalc or calc in high school. Especially the part about knowing how to ask for help in college.

"What I’ve Learned from Many Years of Teaching Calculus to First-Year College Students"

 

http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/~joer/2005-prep-for-college.htm

[regentrude]

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road.

 

But it may be the end of what the school is offering. I doubt most high schools offer math post calculus. In fact, some schools do not even offer calculus and have trig as the top math class- students who need more are just out of luck. Community college is not available everywhere, and it is not free either.

[amsunshine]

But it may be the end of what the school is offering. I doubt most high schools offer math post calculus. In fact, some schools do not even offer calculus and have trig as the top math class- students who need more are just out of luck.

 

But, dual enrollment?  Isn't that always a possibility?

[regentrude]

But, dual enrollment?  Isn't that always a possibility?

 

Dual enrollment at a community college or university?

No, that is NOT always possible. First, college is not available everywhere, especially in rural areas. If available, requires student to have independent transportation, since school bus does not go there. Second, college costs money which the family may not have and the school does not pay.

[amsunshine]

Thank you, regentrude.  In our district, dual enrollment is paid for by the district.  Four years of math is generally required for graduation, so dual enrollment is a given in our district for advanced students.  I was under the impression this was the general rule in most districts, but I see that may not be the case everywhere.

[Farrar]

Totally agree that the math path needs to be tailored to the student!

 

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road.

 

eta:  I went back and re-read the post because this was so puzzling for me.  I realized that the counselor you were speaking to might not have been educated enough about the possibility of further studies in math after high school calculus.  There are a myriad of options, and the argument that taking calculus junior year would leave a student with only 3 years of math is specious.

 

I didn't have to take math my senior year in high school. The school required algebra I and geometry and three credits. I had that. And more, actually. I *did* take more math, because... duh. I took statistics though, because I loathed all the calculus teachers and wanted to do anything I could to avoid them. Probably just as decent a path for a liberal arts major anyway.

[Arcadia]

Four years of math is generally required for graduation, so dual enrollment is a given in our district for advanced students.

I just check my district says two years including algebra 2 for high school graduation and the A-G requirements says three years of math but four recommended. Kids typically take AP stats at 12th though if they are done with Calc at 11th. We are probably in the same county but different district.

 

ETA;

My district goes by A-G or high school requirement whichever higher. So students are suppose to fulfil both requirements.

[MarkT]

I struggled with whether to advanced my mathy ds, but ultimately decided not to and we are happy with that decision.

 

Here is an older essay to ponder on the subject: http://www.thedailyriff.com/articles/can-america-figure-out-math-43.php

That is a great article - spot on ! :iagree:

[Arcadia]

For those areas where community colleges are near to high schools, do you think it make more sense for public school kids to take Calc at CC instead of taking AP Calc?

Or for all the PS kids to take the CC accuplacer test after their Algebra 2 course just before summer break so they know how they do/where they place?

 

ETA:

I'll have friends kids entering 9th grade in the local high school in Fall so vested interest.

[RootAnn]

Re:   no math senior year

 

I live in the boonies. Our state doesn't have specific requirements as far as math graduation requirements. Graduation requirements are set by each school district. I believe our local school district only requires math three years of high school math, including Algebra 1 & Geometry. They can take Algebra I in 8th & it counts for one of those years. Lots of kids, including those who are considered 'top students' (locally) don't go beyond Algebra 2. So, a handful of kids don't take any math junior or senior year. Boggled my mind when I learned it, but true locally.

 

For further info on our local schools ... Just this year, they upped the science graduation requirement to three years from 2 1/2. 

We've only had four kids in the last five years get a 32 or above on the ACT & have not had a National Merit Finalist in the 11+ years we've been here, to my knowledge. Oh, and they claim to be the #15 high school in the state.  :coolgleamA:

[regentrude]

For those areas where community colleges are near to high schools, do you think it make more sense for public school kids to take Calc at CC instead of taking AP Calc?

Or for all the PS kids to take the CC accuplacer test after their Algebra 2 course just before summer break so they know how they do/where they place?

 

That depends entirely on the CC. The calc course may be rigorous and more than equivalent to the AP, and the strong math DE students may be in their own class - or it may be calculus light and they could be in a class of mainly underperforming students who should not attend college in the first place.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I didn't take any math my senior year. I took algebra in 8th*, geometry in 9th, algebra 2 in 10th, and analytical geometry/trig in 11th. As a non-STEM student, I didn't need calculus, and at the time I took all I needed to graduate (and maybe more? with honors even) in Texas. I took all honors or AP, whichever was the highest level offered, in what I did take, but I didn't love math and it wasn't necessary for my future plans. Plus, I saw so many who graduated before me taking it again in college anyway, so I figured why bother? I always think it is funny the way so many people on this board seem to get as pigeon-holey as PS parents. All rigor or no future! I went into a social science field and had a master's at 23. I certainly wasn't held back by my lack of calculus... I am looking forward to taking it for the first time through AoPS...in a few years, still in my 40's hopefully!!! :D

 

*I actually started algebra in 6th, with a wonderful teacher at a DoD school in Germany, but when I moved before 7th grade, a sustaining track wasn't offered at my new school in Alabama, so I basically simmered, bored for years. And after my 6th grade teacher, I never—not once!—had a halfway decent math teacher ever again.

[RootAnn]

 All rigor or no future! I went into a social science field and had a master's at 23. I certainly wasn't held back by my lack of calculus

 

My sister dropped out of Pre-calc after one semester of her senior year. Her guidance counselor told her she'd regret it later, but since my mom signed the form, he had to let her drop. She never regretted it & the only math she had to take in college was some sort of business math / accounting class. She's a successful business owner & does language arts-y (writing) type stuff. So, I agree with you here! I'm just surprised by the kids who want to go into a STEM major who stop taking math so early.

 

Me, I horrified the very same guidance counselor because I refused to take a semester of Composition senior year.  :lol:  I didn't need it & have never regretted not taking it. (I took three semesters of LA senior year, just not Comp!)

[amsunshine]

 I went into a social science field and had a master's at 23. I certainly wasn't held back by my lack of calculus...

 

But, is Calculus even necessary in social science?  I ask this not to be snarky, but because I am truly interested.  My girls are interested in biological and computer sciences.  I'm assuming that those interested in the sciences (aside from social sciences) need more math, generally.  They like math, at any rate, so it doesn't seem to make sense to limit their math education, regardless.  Still, I'm interested in knowing what all the different paths are to Rome.

[Arcadia]

. My girls are interested in biological and computer sciences. .

For computer science courses, discrete math was more useful than calculus. However people I knew who took discrete math had taken calculus of some form in high school.

I don't know anything about biological science since I wasn't keen on premed. Hubby was keen on medicine and didn't take Calc BC but he had Calc which was useful since his 2nd choice was electrical engineering. I was one track mind to engineering then postgrad to comp engineering. Went for MBA when I was working and didn't need to study for statistics to ace it because my engin statistics course was a killer.

[Alte Veste Academy]

But, is Calculus even necessary in social science?

 

No. (ETA: Not for my field.) That was my point. :) I didn't even have to take it in college. I needed statistics though (which I thoroughly despised), but not until college, as a requirement for my major. I also tested out of a class called Mathematics for Social Sciences, which was basically precalculus.

 

I'm assuming that those interested in the sciences (aside from social sciences) need more math, generally.

 

Yes, me too. It is logical. :D

[LaughingCat]

I did the 8th grade Algebra through Trig in 11th grade -- and then skipped 12th grade math (which wasn't calc anyway at my small town school but 'advanced math' - a place holder class for those who took 8th grade algebra).  Dual enrollment wasn't an option. 

 

And I have 2 STEM B.S degrees.  

 

(OTH, yes it would have served me a lot better to have taken calc in high school first if that had been available)  

[HSmomof2]

No. That was my point. :) I didn't even have to take it in college. I needed statistics though (which I thoroughly despised), but not until college, as a requirement for my major. I also tested out of a class called Mathematics for Social Sciences, which was basically precalculus.

 

 

Yes, me too. It is logical. :D

The university I attended offered a BA in psychology geared towards students not continuing into grad school or heading to a counseling Masters program. The BA required Statistics but not Calculus. They also offered a BS in psychology for those students heading towards a PhD/research program. The BS required Calculus.

So, I don't think it's imperative for a non-STEM student to take Calculus in high school. It can be taken in college if needed, and many of us have gone on to have successful, fulfilling lives without ever taking Calculus. 😉

[Arcadia]

For something lighthearted about Calculus. This teenager aced stuff but had a B for Calc which didn't hurt his scholarship chances and his admission into Air Force Academy :)

 

"He had perfect scores on his ACT and SAT, is captain of the Grissom academic team, is captain of the national champion cybersecurity team and has part-time job. You and I flipped burgers or mowed lawns. He's working at Dynetics.

 

"In my every day activities, I do a lot of dumb things that make everybody look smart." Calculus, for instance. It's his Kryptonite. He misses problems "on a frequent and recurring basis." He even made a B in the class last report card.

 

Brahm calls himself "a total nerd," saying, "I don't take myself very seriously. That's a big mistake a lot of people make. They are so particular about their self-identity they don't allow for flexibility, and that just causes stress and makes people unhappy."

 

News link http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/05/james_brahm_column.html

[Tsuga]

No. That was my point. :) I didn't even have to take it in college. I needed statistics though (which I thoroughly despised), but not until college, as a requirement for my major. I also tested out of a class called Mathematics for Social Sciences, which was basically precalculus.

 

 

Yes, me too. It is logical. :D

 

Okay... but... I needed calc and linear algebra to be able to do my job with statistics.

 

It depends if you're doing the qualitative side of the research, in which case, many life sciences and even chemistry don't need calc or linear algebra if they have good software.

 

But in order to develop the statistical methods for developing the science you absolutely do need calculus to understand economics and statistics.

[8filltheheart]

I dont see the issue as offering cal vs. no cal in high school.  The issue I see is putting every single student on the exact same level. It doesn't happen with my own kids in my own house being taught by the same teacher.  No way the ps position is representative of anything close to reality.

[Guest]

Totally agree that the math path needs to be tailored to the student!

 

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road.

 

eta:  I went back and re-read the post because this was so puzzling for me.  I realized that the counselor you were speaking to might not have been educated enough about the possibility of further studies in math after high school calculus.  There are a myriad of options, and the argument that taking calculus junior year would leave a student with only 3 years of math is specious.

The counselor I spoke of has seen it all.

 

The point I was trying, but failed, to make, is that for SOME students, Algebra I in 9th grade may be the most appropriate course for them...because they are not calculus students...and colleges know this, andreally don't hold it against them...the college care more that they stayed current in mathing from 9-12 and are primed for math at whatever level they enter in college. 

 

This will vary by intended major, I know that.  

 

:0)

[Guest]

Totally agree that the math path needs to be tailored to the student!

 

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road.

 

eta:  I went back and re-read the post because this was so puzzling for me.  I realized that the counselor you were speaking to might not have been educated enough about the possibility of further studies in math after high school calculus.  There are a myriad of options, and the argument that taking calculus junior year would leave a student with only 3 years of math is specious.

Calculus is PAST the end of the road for some students.  Colleges care more that they have stuck with the math they can do, and have done 4 years.  The "blank" senior year is a red flag to some colleges, more so than a PreCalc in the senior year.  

 

Not all schools have a lot to offer after calc.  My son's school did, and even so, they were careful to tailor the math sequence to the student and to make sure that the student had 4 years of math.  

 

Alg I, Geom, Alg II, Precalc was a better sequeence for college acceptance than PreCalc, Calc AB, Calc BC, Nothing for the big name colleges.

 

This is the practice from a cream-skimming (very high capability student), BlueRibbon School, with a 99% college acceptance rate--and 75% of those schools are in the top 100 lists.  The school was a wonder in that it took students where they were--all high achievers, but not in the same discipline.  Not all the 98%ile are mathists.  The school knew this, and they guided the students accordingly.  I will never stop being grateful to them.  

 

I'm really not trying to be a know-it-all; just trying to pass on info for which I paid dearly.   It is my hope that people will gain some hope and reduce their college anxiety re: their own personal students.  Not evfery kid is mathy.  There are multiple ways to succeed...and for once I am not talking out of my hat.  This is info from people a lot more experienced than I, more knowledgeable about the range of possibility and of students than I.  "We've seen this rodeo before."  I had one kid...they had seen hundreds...thousands.

 

I'm sounding defensive...and I really don't mean to.  What I want to say to moms who are worried about their kids is that there is a lot of room...more than you know...for how your kid will find his way in this life.  My own kid has found a way that I never would have thought of, and one that had me paralyzed with fear and disappointment less than a year ago.  I wish I had listened better to those who had seen more than MY kid.  

 

Anyway, relax.  The point is that your kid does the math s/he CAN DO, for 4 years of high school.  Don't worry as much about the level of accomplishment.  

 

I also want to say that my dh is a math major and he completely concurs.  He was a GT kid, and did all the math there was at an advanced high school .  And when he went to college, the calculus he had to take was light years ahead of his high school classes.  He has become a MAJOR advocate of being SOLID rather than FAST in math.  

 

Kind regards to you all.  I will tell you that my own hopes and dreams for my son ended in ashes...but my son is the Phoenix arising from them...  It's not an easy road.  

[Arcadia]

I think that the problem with cutting algebra in middle school in the SF Bay Area is that it gives parents an extra push to switch to private. I have neighbors on the fence earlier this year switching their kids to private in Fall since school year is ending anyway in end May/beginning of June.

 

It is an emotionally charged topic among neighbors on the fleeing from the local assigned public schools to private schools and public charters. The school district spokeswoman says the district is providing an adequate education to all students but did not define what it means by adequate.

 

I do think common core is just being used as an excuse to stop offering algebra 1 in middle school. What I do see possibly happening is a social divide.

[wapiti]

Speaking of statistics, AP stats is a math option for senior year for those not wanting to take calc.

 

(I still have a hard time imagining what is taught in a college statistics course that is not calc-based, but that's another thread...)

[Mabelen]

All our high schools in the district have AP Cal BC and AP Stats at minimum. I know several have other courses beyond that but I haven't checked out what.

[FO4UR]

This is a personal opinion, informed by what I was told by admissions counselors and the my son's high school college prep advisor:

 

Topline:  MOST colleges care far more THAT students have had 4 years of math than the specifics of what the math courses were.  In this scenario, AlgI, Geom, Alg2, PreCalc is a completely respectable math sequence.  That allows for starting AlgebraI in Grade9.  

 

The counselor told me that some colleges PREFER this sequence because the students have started upper math at a mature age, and have been more likely to have grasped it.  That Calculus takes 2 years to complete, anyway, at the high school level, and that even so, most college freshmen have to take it again anyway.

 

The problem that can arise with starting AlgebraI too early is two-fold:  1) Some students are too immature.  and 2), Some students burn out of math too soon, which leaves them without *four years* (as in the four recent years) of high school math.  Some schools are really unimpressed with a no-math year in the senior year...even if the student got through Calculus by his/her junior year.  

 

When you are making a path, do what is right for your student; there is plenty of time to complete a respectable math sequence, and perhaps even a preferable one, even if a student starts AlgebraI in the 9th grade.  

 

 

Calculus is PAST the end of the road for some students.  Colleges care more that they have stuck with the math they can do, and have done 4 years.  The "blank" senior year is a red flag to some colleges, more so than a PreCalc in the senior year.  

 

Not all schools have a lot to offer after calc.  My son's school did, and even so, they were careful to tailor the math sequence to the student and to make sure that the student had 4 years of math.  

 

Alg I, Geom, Alg II, Precalc was a better sequeence for college acceptance than PreCalc, Calc AB, Calc BC, Nothing for the big name colleges.

 

This is the practice from a cream-skimming (very high capability student), BlueRibbon School, with a 99% college acceptance rate--and 75% of those schools are in the top 100 lists.  The school was a wonder in that it took students where they were--all high achievers, but not in the same discipline.  Not all the 98%ile are mathists.  The school knew this, and they guided the students accordingly.  I will never stop being grateful to them.  

 

I'm really not trying to be a know-it-all; just trying to pass on info for which I paid dearly.   It is my hope that people will gain some hope and reduce their college anxiety re: their own personal students.  Not evfery kid is mathy.  There are multiple ways to succeed...and for once I am not talking out of my hat.  This is info from people a lot more experienced than I, more knowledgeable about the range of possibility and of students than I.  "We've seen this rodeo before."  I had one kid...they had seen hundreds...thousands.

 

I'm sounding defensive...and I really don't mean to.  What I want to say to moms who are worried about their kids is that there is a lot of room...more than you know...for how your kid will find his way in this life.  My own kid has found a way that I never would have thought of, and one that had me paralyzed with fear and disappointment less than a year ago.  I wish I had listened better to those who had seen more than MY kid.  

 

Anyway, relax.  The point is that your kid does the math s/he CAN DO, for 4 years of high school.  Don't worry as much about the level of accomplishment.  

 

I also want to say that my dh is a math major and he completely concurs.  He was a GT kid, and did all the math there was at an advanced high school .  And when he went to college, the calculus he had to take was light years ahead of his high school classes.  He has become a MAJOR advocate of being SOLID rather than FAST in math.  

 

Kind regards to you all.  I will tell you that my own hopes and dreams for my son ended in ashes...but my son is the Phoenix arising from them...  It's not an easy road.  

 

 

Thank you for posting Patty Joanna.  This was a timely bit of perspective for me. :001_smile:

 

 

 

I started Alg 1 in 8th and went through Calc in Sr Yr.  I did not need Calc for my major, and I did not understand Calc when I took it. The class was too large, and the teacher focused on about 8 (truly) math-gifted kids.  I would have been better off being in the Top of the Class in pre-calc.  No doubt about it!  So...here I sit as a HS mom with a kid who shows a lot of potential, desires a STEM career, and yet doesn't always love the daily grind of math lessons. Your posts are encouraging to me. Thinking of Alg 1 in 9th is a relief.  (And, if he leaps over this next year and is ready in 8th, we'll roll with that....but I won't be pushing.)

 

 

 

 

As a side note to this thread:  What happens in math from K-8th matters, makes a huge difference in what our students are ready for in 9th.  Kids who are pushed into high-level maths in K-3 (at the detriment of learning to +-x/) are at a severe disadvantage. A later start (Finland starts at 7yo.) and a narrow scope and sequence in the early years builds a foundation that middle/high school kids can build upon.  It's as if the USA can't admit we were wrong in one thing, and so we keep adjusting the standards, making things worse, trying to cover up the latest mistake.  Those standards drive the classroom...it's a downward spiral we are on.

 

Back to Algebra....the K child who has a basic 1-1 correspondence can master K-3 math, the 4th grader who can +-x/ with conceptual understanding and ease can master middle school math, and the child who has truly mastered all arithmetic (with both conceptual understanding and fluent application) will be well prepared for Algebra and beyond.  Any breakdown along the line is bound to create problems.  

 

PS should strive to have a well-plotted path through the math sequence, with allowances for individual pace.  The evidence is there.  Many wonderful school models have been documented worldwide.  (Time to lay down our Educational Hubris and learn from others who are more successful!)  We throw plenty of $$$ into our education system.  We have many dedicated teachers.  The problem lies elsewhere...and at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I have to wonder (b/c the answers seem truly simple to me) if the choke-hold on the PS system isn't purposeful.

[Caroline]

Speaking of statistics, AP stats is a math option for senior year for those not wanting to take calc.

 

(I still have a hard time imagining what is taught in a college statistics course that is not calc-based, but that's another thread...)

 

Me, too.

[Arcadia]

(I still have a hard time imagining what is taught in a college statistics course that is not calc-based, but that's another thread...)

My friend's Bachelor in Business Administration business stats course was more of learning to use SPSS and SAS. Very procedural course on statistics which suits her.

I learned SPSS 10 to help her with how to do her homework.

[MinivanMom]

The counselor I spoke of has seen it all.

 

The point I was trying, but failed, to make, is that for SOME students, Algebra I in 9th grade may be the most appropriate course for them...because they are not calculus students...and colleges know this, andreally don't hold it against them...the college care more that they stayed current in mathing from 9-12 and are primed for math at whatever level they enter in college. 

 

This will vary by intended major, I know that.  

 

:0)

 

I think the problem we are coming back to, though, is that many high achieving districts have made Algebra in 8th standard to the point where only remedial Algebra I is offered at the high school level. You aren't going to get a solid foundation taking Algebra I - Precalculus in high school if you are taking it in a remedial environment (whether the school officially labels it that way or not).

 

We are on 4x4 block scheduling in our district so a student starting with Algebra in 9th is required to double up their freshman year with Algebra 1a fall & Algebra 1b spring. Their only option is to then enroll in regular track Geo in 10th, because they have not yet covered enough Alg I (according to the district) to go into H track Geo. Regular track Geo feeds into regular track Alg II. Regular track Alg II does not cover all of Alg II, so students must take a class called "Advanced Functions and Modeling" in 12th grade to cover the remainder of Alg II rather than going straight into Pre-Cal. So their sequence ends with less than a full Pre-Cal course their senior year. I have known of students coming in from other districts (or from a homeschool environment) who have found that they can't recover from starting Alg I in 9th, because there is no way to get back on anything resembling a college-prep sequence. I don't doubt that admissions officials are happy to accept students from rural or inner-city districts with Pre-Cal as their highest course, but I can't imagine they are okay with students from our urban, high achieving district applying with no Pre-Cal on their transcript.

 

We simply need more paths through high school to meet the needs of various students. One size does not fit all, whether we're trying to turn all students into STEM majors by forcing them into Alg in middle school or trying to give them all a "foundation" by forcing them to wait to take Alg in high school. We need more flexibility.

[Alte Veste Academy]

(I still have a hard time imagining what is taught in a college statistics course that is not calc-based, but that's another thread...)

 

Maybe that explains why I hated it. LOL I didn't know there was a difference: calculus-based vs non-calculus-based. Apparently there is. I know calculus was not a prerequisite for my college stats class because I never took it, just precalc. I tested out of statistics for my master's program based on what I learned in undergrad, so I imagine that one wasn't calculus based either. ETA: Looking at my program's plan, I see two additional advanced stats courses listed. I imagine those were for a different track than I took (direct practice).

 

Here's an article from the Statistics gurus saying there has been an effort at foot to strip calculus from statistics for introductory courses...for 20 years. I took stats in undergrad in 1994.

[snowbeltmom]

 

 

As a side note to this thread:  What happens in math from K-8th matters, makes a huge difference in what our students are ready for in 9th.  Kids who are pushed into high-level maths in K-3 (at the detriment of learning to +-x/) are at a severe disadvantage. A later start (Finland starts at 7yo.) and a narrow scope and sequence in the early years builds a foundation that middle/high school kids can build upon.  It's as if the USA can't admit we were wrong in one thing, and so we keep adjusting the standards, making things worse, trying to cover up the latest mistake.  Those standards drive the classroom...it's a downward spiral we are on.

 

Back to Algebra....the K child who has a basic 1-1 correspondence can master K-3 math, the 4th grader who can +-x/ with conceptual understanding and ease can master middle school math, and the child who has truly mastered all arithmetic (with both conceptual understanding and fluent application) will be well prepared for Algebra and beyond.  Any breakdown along the line is bound to create problems.  

 

PS should strive to have a well-plotted path through the math sequence, with allowances for individual pace.  The evidence is there.  Many wonderful school models have been documented worldwide.  (Time to lay down our Educational Hubris and learn from others who are more successful!)  We throw plenty of $$$ into our education system.  We have many dedicated teachers.  The problem lies elsewhere...and at the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I have to wonder (b/c the answers seem truly simple to me) if the choke-hold on the PS system isn't purposeful.

I agree that our kids need to have a strong foundation laid in the elementary years.  I don't think Finland's success can be attributed to a later start.  I think Finland's success is due to the fact that the elementary teachers are competent in math, something that is sorely lacking in the US.

 

I wish the US system would allow for individual pace, but, at least in my neck of the woods, that will never happen. 

[MinivanMom]

 

 

I read this article linked above, and I encourage you to read it too. It seems not much has changed since 2011. Why America produces so few engineering students has a lot to do with how high school math is sequenced, but it also has a lot to do with content and developing the background for higher level math.

 

 

Great article!

 

One of the complaints I'm hearing locally (from parents with math/engineering backgrounds) is that the new CC courses are covering wildly advanced topics that their kids aren't prepared for while neglecting to teach foundational Algebra skills. I have a friend (with a strong math background) who as been complaining about Pre-Cal concepts being taught in her daughter's Alg I class. I had another friend (without a math background) bragging to me about the difficult statistical concepts being covered in her daughter's 5th grade math class. She figured it must all be wonderful and rigorous, because the math is too hard for her (the mother) to understand or help her daughter with (since the daughter is completely lost).

[Alte Veste Academy]

The university I attended offered a BA in psychology geared towards students not continuing into grad school or heading to a counseling Masters program. The BA required Statistics but not Calculus. They also offered a BS in psychology for those students heading towards a PhD/research program. The BS required Calculus.

 

Interesting. I got a BS, no stats required. Not in psychology though. I was on a direct practice track though, for both my BS and MS, so in retrospect I'm sure that figured into my requirements.

 

Okay... but... I needed calc and linear algebra to be able to do my job with statistics.

 

It depends if you're doing the qualitative side of the research, in which case, many life sciences and even chemistry don't need calc or linear algebra if they have good software.

 

But in order to develop the statistical methods for developing the science you absolutely do need calculus to understand economics and statistics.

 

Well, if students needs calculus, linear algebra, and a higher level of statistics to do their job, then they should learn it. Obviously some career fields dig more deeply and get into more complex stats, so naturally those courses are available to them. It is probably even built into the prerequisite/requirement track. 

[FO4UR]

I agree that our kids need to have a strong foundation laid in the elementary years.  I don't think Finland's success can be attributed to a later start.  I think Finland's success is due to the fact that the elementary teachers are competent in math, something that is sorely lacking in the US.

 

I wish the US system would allow for individual pace, but, at least in my neck of the woods, that will never happen. 

 

 

I think it's both/and.  There is a world of difference when starting with a group of kids who are at least 85% all ready for the level of work.  It's easier to differentiate instruction, for both the bottom and the top achievers, when there are fewer children who need have the need.  Waiting a year or two for natural childhood development (and stimulating that natural development via play) has real benefits in the classroom.  Pair ready kids with a competent teacher, and you have some education happening. 

 

In the USA, we lack on both ends.  

[amsunshine]

I think it's both/and.  There is a world of difference when starting with a group of kids who are at least 85% all ready for the level of work.  It's easier to differentiate instruction, for both the bottom and the top achievers, when there are fewer children who need have the need.  Waiting a year or two for natural childhood development (and stimulating that natural development via play) has real benefits in the classroom.  Pair ready kids with a competent teacher, and you have some education happening. 

 

In the USA, we lack on both ends.  

 

Not sure about the issue of delayed start, but I think Finland's system is so different from our own that it's difficult to compare.  I seem to recall something about how Finland's teachers are not only highly educated and highly paid, but the same teacher stays with his/her group of students from elementary through either junior or high school.  There is something about having the same teacher educating a student year after year, I think, that has a tremendous impact on that student's growth and development academically.

 

At any rate, back to the OP, having algebra delayed for every student until 9th grade doesn't seem wise.  As previous posters have said, one size does not fit all, and this does a disservice to those who are ready earlier and capable of moving at a more accelerated pace.  Does this mean all students are ready for algebra prior to 9th?  Absolutely not.  Does it mean that all students who start Algebra prior to 9th will learn it well and deeply?  No.  But this likely due to a variety of factors, many of which have nothing to do with whether a student is "ready", and more to do with things like the anti-education culture in our country, the constant changing of standards, the use of sub-par materials and teachers who don't know how to teach math.  

[Mabelen]

Once upon a time there was a naive mom who thought math teachers were for the most part knowledgeable and competent and that the curriculum used was at least adequate and effective. My oldest had a mix of good, so so, and excellent teachers. She also had one down right incompetent. She was academically gifted although math was not her strongest area and I was hands off for the most part with her except that I required summer math review even if the school didn't. Now I am resolved to afterschool my younger daughter long term because I cannot simply leave her math education to chance. She is receptive although not often enthusiastic but we keep going.

[vonfirmath]

Totally agree that the math path needs to be tailored to the student!

 

However, I was surprised to hear a reference to a "no-math" year senior year?!?  Never heard of that. I've always assumed that students who finished Calculus junior year would go on to study something more advanced senior year.  Assuming a student is math-adept enough to take calculus junior year, why would that student take a year off of math?  That seems so crazy to me.  There is so much more math out there to learn...calculus is not the end of the road..

 

In my case? i had taken every math class the high school had and my parents couldn't afford tuition for me to take another class at Blinn or the university. (some of the other seniors took classes off campus)

 

I graded Calculus homework for the teacher to try to keep my hand in.

 

I, too, was in Texas. (College Station, home of Texas A&M University. So going to school with professor's kids, a lot of them).  Took Algebra 1 in Houston, 8th grade. (GT math).  Then Algebra 2 in 9th, Geometry in the summer, Analytic Geometry/Trigometry in 10th, AP calculus BC in 11th.... and ran out of math. I would have LOVED to have taken a higher class. But nothing was available.

 

I did take Honors Physics (which was very math based) that year too.

 

[amsunshine]

In my case? i had taken every math class the high school had and my parents couldn't afford tuition for me to take another class at Blinn or the university. (some of the other seniors took classes off campus)

 

I graded Calculus homework for the teacher to try to keep my hand in.

 

Love it!

[mamakelly]

 

Topline:  MOST colleges care far more THAT students have had 4 years of math than the specifics of what the math courses were.  In this scenario, AlgI, Geom, Alg2, PreCalc is a completely respectable math sequence.  That allows for starting AlgebraI in Grade9.  

 

 

 

Yes this. My DS got into every college he applied for, including SDSU which only takes about 15% of applicants. The "slower" track didn't seem to hinder him at all.