Not Accepting Violence Against Women --- Dating Warning Signs

[unsinkable]

In my circle, I advocate a "one strike" rule. If any of these or similar signs occur while dating, I consider it reason enough to end the relationship immediately.

 

I have come to believe in being ruthless about it, no second chances. End the relationship as soon as a red flag warning sign occurs. No minimalizations, no excuses.

 

It has to be crystal clear that these things are never acceptable and won't ever be acceptable.

 

Checking cell phones, emails or social networks without permission

Extreme jealousy or insecurity

Constant belittling or put-downs

Explosive temper

Isolation from family and friends

Making false accusations

Erratic mood swings

Physically inflicting pain or hurt in any way

Possessiveness

Telling someone what to do

Repeatedly pressuring someone to have sex*

 

*No...this should be "pressuring someone to have sex." One time is too many.

 

http://www.breakthecycle.org/warning-signs

[SparklyUnicorn]

Seems like a good list.  I only dated one questionable person, and I promptly got the hell away from him.

 

 

[kiana]

Yep. I should have looked at that before I got into my last serious relationship.

[Tanaqui]

Also, it should be mentioned that violence or threatened violence against possessions or pets (or children!) is also a huge warning sign.

 

There are two things that aren't mentioned on that list which really should be, not because they're unacceptable in and of themselves but because they are common among abusers.

 

The first is moving "too fast". Some people move fast in a relationship because that's how they are. There's nothing wrong with that if everybody's okay with it. But if the guy you're with wants to go from three dates to moving in together, that's something you should note. Abusers often have an unusually short relationship before getting more serious. And if you say no to taking the next step, whatever that step is, and they pressure you, or get upset - that's big. Even if that "next step" doesn't involve sex, per se.

 

The second is "failing to take responsibility for their emotions". Normal people say things like "you make me happy!" and they're just being sweet. Abusers say it and they really mean it - and for them, it's no stretch from "you make me happy" to "you made me so mad!" or "you know what it does to me when I see you dressed like that". (Abusers also are strongly predisposed to pinning the responsibility for their bad behavior on alcohol, stress, "just a joke" and so on. Now that's just not cool.)

 

It's not terribly uncommon for an abuser to come on strong, move fast in a relationship, say things like "I didn't really have the money, but I had to get this necklace when I thought how good you'd look in it", shower their partner with gifts in the early stage of the relationship, or during the "honeymoon phase" after an outburst. This can be very flattering and overwhelming - wow, this great guy, he's so in love, it's one for the playwrights! And thoughts of those good times can make it easier for an abuse victim to rationalize or downplay the bad times.

 

A different list that focuses on the start of an abusive relationship can be found here. And of course, if you find yourself in an abusive relationship, that's not because you're stupid or weak. That's the abuse talking. There's nothing to be ashamed or embarrassed about, your focus should be on surviving and escaping, not on blaming yourself.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Surely this must be much more subtle than this sometimes though.  Some of these things are so outrageous I can't believe I'd get past a hello with a person who did most of those.  So do they start out nice and slowly do these things? 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

Surely this must be much more subtle than this sometimes though.  Some of these things are so outrageous I can't believe I'd get past a hello with a person who did most of those.  So do they start out nice and slowly do these things? 

 

Oh yeah. As stated in my link, it's common for them to be super nice in the first few weeks or months, especially in public, to load their partner up with gifts (especially expensive or difficult-to-get gifts that will create a sense of obligation), to shower them with compliments from the banal (unless you know the code) "You make me happy" to the creeptastic "I don't know what I'd do without you".

 

So when they first call their partner a s*** or they first scream and throw her favorite ceramic cat at the wall, and then they cool down later and get her flowers and say "I was so mad, I was drunk, it'll never happen again" it's hard to reconcile the person they saw then with the one they think they see every day.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Honestly, I think the first sign is in how a man approaches you. Does he touch you? Does he try to hold you there when you try to walk away? Does he insist that you should talk to him because he is a nice guy? Does he imply that you'll be a mean bitch if you don't at least give him a chance?

 

Don't date that guy.

[gardenmom5]

while I do think the list is good - I have a concern that those behaviors don't usually manifest until a relationship has become established, by which time someone in that situation may not even recognize the behavior for what it is because they are so used to rationalizing things.  they may not even "register" in their head that that list refers to THEM and their situation.

 

I think for the benefit of those on the receiving end - you should expect to give clarification.

 

eta: I would like to point out that "if you leave me I'll kill myself" may or may NOT be manipulative in origin. It could also be the sign of someone in great mental health distress/depression trying to hang on to sanity (but dont' know how) who desperately needs mental health care far more than a significant other.

 

 

[sunflowerlady]

Yes, they often start out seeming like just the kind of partner one would dream of. Well mannered, attentive, kind. They give compliments and behave in a romantic , loving way. They might be protective and jealous but it starts out seeming innocent and can make the victim feel loved and desired.

 

Then it starts to slowly change.

[Okra]

while I do think the list is good - I have a concern that those behaviors don't usually manifest until a relationship has become established, by which time someone in that situation may not even recognize the behavior for what it is because they are so used to rationalizing things.  they may not even "register" in their head that that list refers to THEM and their situation.

 

I think for the benefit of those on the receiving end - you should expect to give clarification.

 

eta: I would like to point out that "if you leave me I'll kill myself" may or may NOT be manipulative in origin. It could also be the sign of someone in great mental health distress/depression trying to hang on to sanity (but dont' know how) who desperately needs mental health care far more than a significant other.

 

 

I agree with this.  The list from the OP is excellent.  But, control manifests itself sometimes in sneaky and surprising ways.  It doesn't start off bad.  

 

Nevertheless, the conversation is important to have with our children BEFORE they find themselves in a relationship with these issues.

[unsinkable]

while I do think the list is good - I have a concern that those behaviors don't usually manifest until a relationship has become established, by which time someone in that situation may not even recognize the behavior for what it is because they are so used to rationalizing things. they may not even "register" in their head that that list refers to THEM and their situation.

 

I think for the benefit of those on the receiving end - you should expect to give clarification.

 

eta: I would like to point out that "if you leave me I'll kill myself" may or may NOT be manipulative in origin. It could also be the sign of someone in great mental health distress/depression trying to hang on to sanity (but dont' know how) who desperately needs mental health care far more than a significant other.

I agree with this. The list from the OP is excellent. But, control manifests itself sometimes in sneaky and surprising ways. It doesn't start off bad.

 

Nevertheless, the conversation is important to have with our children BEFORE they find themselves in a relationship with these issues.

I did it wrong!I'm trying to help and I DID IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I SHOULD FIX IT!!!!!!!!!It's all my fault! I'm part of the problem.

[Mrs Mungo]

eta: I would like to point out that "if you leave me I'll kill myself" may or may NOT be manipulative in origin. It could also be the sign of someone in great mental health distress/depression trying to hang on to sanity (but dont' know how) who desperately needs mental health care far more than a significant other.

Honestly, either way? I would encourage my child to extricate themselves from a situation like that.

[Okra]

I did it wrong!I'm trying to help and I DID IT WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I SHOULD FIX IT!!!!!!!!!It's all my fault! I'm part of the problem.

 

????

[SparklyUnicorn]

Honestly, either way? I would encourage my child to extricate themselves from a situation like that.

 

Yup and the excessively jealous type.  My sister dated one of those.  Nice guy.  I don't think he was abusive exactly, but he had some screws loose or something.  He was so ridiculously jealous it took on comical proportions.  My sister got away from him.

[unsinkable]

????

I'm just falling on my sword before I'm stabbed to death.

[gardenmom5]

Honestly, either way? I would encourage my child to extricate themselves from a situation like that.

 

I can agree with that's a relationship they don't need to be in - but the reasons are different.  a manipulator needs to be left in their dust because they're dangerous.  someone mentally unstable needs mental health care and is not in a position to be in a relationship.  if they get mentally healthy, they might be able to have a relationship. later.

[Mrs Mungo]

I can agree with that's a relationship they don't need to be in - but the reasons are different.  a manipulator needs to be left in their dust because they're dangerous.  someone mentally unstable needs mental health care and is not in a position to be in a relationship.  if they get mentally healthy, they might be able to have a relationship. later.

I absolutely agree.

[gardenmom5]

anyone who makes the hair on the back of mom's head stand up .  . . . .

[Sdel]

Good list.....but I'd also add overly flattering as a red flag too (personal experience with that one....)

 

Stefanie

[Okra]

I'm just falling on my sword before I'm stabbed to death.

 

I thought your list was great!  I was not trying to be critical.  I have been in a relationship with some of these red flags, but the control happened so subtlely that it was really difficult to see the red flags while in the midst of the relationship.  It all crept up on me.  If a guy was that creepy on a first date, he would probably scare people off.

 

But, yes, a list is probably a good idea.

[gardenmom5]

you know - it's really sad that my abusive/manipulative grandmother made me so cynical I would see manipulation even when it wasn't there.  (you're being nice.  what do you want?)  but, salesmen hate me because I'm impervious . . . . .

[unsinkable]

I thought your list was great! I was not trying to be critical. I have been in a relationship with some of these red flags, but the control happened so subtlely that it was really difficult to see the red flags while in the midst of the relationship. It all crept up on me. If a guy was that creepy on a first date, he would probably scare people off.

 

But, yes, a list is probably a good idea.

Thanks.

[Rosie_0801]

Surely this must be much more subtle than this sometimes though.  Some of these things are so outrageous I can't believe I'd get past a hello with a person who did most of those.  So do they start out nice and slowly do these things? 

 

I think it is more that none of the things seem like much as individual incidents, and it is not until a long time later that you realise a pattern developed.

 

Are you going to fault someone for being tired? Is saying "it'll be better next year when I've finished uni" really unreasonable?

[Sdel]

Surely this must be much more subtle than this sometimes though.  Some of these things are so outrageous I can't believe I'd get past a hello with a person who did most of those.  So do they start out nice and slowly do these things? 

 

Yes and no.....a lot of it has to do with the style of the abuser and the vulnerability and inexperience of the target.  I was in two different abusive relationships (I know, slow learner) and each one used the same tactics for different results.  The first was my first relationship when I was 18 and he was a pedophile.  He skirted the edge of legality by only dating 18 year olds, but he was definitely a predator seeking out young (specifically young looking) vulnerable just turned 18 girls while he was older.  He gave away other clues and comments too and I found a very horrible image that I wish I could burn out of my brain on the computer once.  He was very subtle, until the very end and his game was designed to drive people away when he was done with them.  The other guy, well, I admit I wasn't in my best place mentally, but looking back, he was very overt and I think the reason for being so overt was to keep me off kilter. 

 

Stefanie

[LucyStoner]

Someone can be mentally ill and also an abusive, toxic partner. My brother is both with addict layered in. He has just enough charm though that he has no shortage of women willing to be with him, even when he is blatantly ringing serious alarm bells. His most recent girlfriend, weeks in to their flirtation, bailed him out of jail on a DV charge against his wife and moved him in with her. She then perjured herself telling the civil court he never uses drugs, rarely drinks and is a great dad (her word didn't carry any weight). The fact that TWELVE different people have obtained restraining orders or DV protection orders against him also didn't matter to her- he was just misunderstood, yanno? To say nothing of the multiple recent police reports and arrests. The mind boggles. I get the rationalizations from a woman with an established relationship, it's part of the abuse cycle but it defies all logic that anyone new would think he was a catch.

[Joker]

I think the list is good. I always thought this wouldn't be a conversation I had to have with my dds until they were well into high school and starting to date, but I actually had to have it two years ago when my oldest had just turned 13 years old. She has guy friends and they text. I could tell one was starting to like her as more than a friend. He invited her to a party but she was the only girl invited and it was a pool party, so she told him she couldn't attend (her choice, she felt uncomfortable as she didn't know all the other boys). He responded in text by calling her a bitch. His temper came out of nowhere and she came to me because she had no idea what to make of it. We had a long talk then about a lot of the things on that list. It was a wake up call to have those types of discussions earlier than I had anticipated.

[Rosie_0801]

Oh Rosie, so true. I think hindsight is truly 20/20. This is where having people who love us enough to be truthful, even when we don't went to hear it, can help immensely. But even that doesn't catch all the creeps and psychos. Some women and men just hide it too well, or are very, very subtle. It's like throwing a frog into boiling water versus turning up the heat slowly. Too many people are on a light simmer and don't realize it until way down the road.

 

That is one down side to being an introvert. People who lead quiet lives may not have many people around, or may not see them often enough that the "truthful words" are actually true. I did listen to people who expressed concerns, but either their concern was not valid, or if I was on the fence a bit, they never followed up months later with a casual "you, know, I'm still concerned about this" so their original concern was no longer on my radar. I don't know what I would have done in the latter scenario, and I won't because it never happened.

[Joanne]

It's an important conversation, and a great start to it.

 

I'd add that when *I* talk about it, it is primarly from the male on female abuse. I know that female to male abuse occurs, but I know less about the dynamic and the abuse is not completely overlapping in terms of pattern and issues.

 

For example, for this thread, I'd add that women are socialized to "be nice." We are, as children, encouraged, expected, and rewarded for being sweet and nice. We are told to kiss Uncle Joe or Grandpa good bye. Later, when we act in bold or assertive ways, we are called a bitch. We are rarely celebrated when we are strong.

 

Male abusers play on that; we learn to "be nice" and to ignore the stuff that might be screaming in our head about people.

 

Empower your daughters to be strong, powerful, and not nice.

[MomatHWTK]

And if one of your relatives decides to cling to an abuser, teach your children that it's not OK.

[Garga]

It's an important conversation, and a great start to it.

 

I'd add that when *I* talk about it, it is primarly from the male on female abuse. I know that female to male abuse occurs, but I know less about the dynamic and the abuse is not completely overlapping in terms of pattern and issues.

 

For example, for this thread, I'd add that women are socialized to "be nice." We are, as children, encouraged, expected, and rewarded for being sweet and nice. We are told to kiss Uncle Joe or Grandpa good bye. Later, when we act in bold or assertive ways, we are called a bitch. We are rarely celebrated when we are strong.

 

Male abusers play on that; we learn to "be nice" and to ignore the stuff that might be screaming in our head about people.

 

Empower your daughters to be strong, powerful, and not nice.

I teach my sons not to be nice, too. My homeschooled boys are naieve and don't understand people who are not nice. They think everyone is kind and good. I have to tell them that some people are bad and they do NOT have to do anything they don't want to do just to be nice.

 

I have told them a number of stories of when I was a teenaged girl where men asked for things I didn't think were appropriate and I flat out said, "No" without any other explanation.

 

One was a man who was going door to door selling something. I was home with my boyfriend (I was 17, boyfriend was only 16), but we were alone and both very young looking. My (stupid!) boyfriend answered the door and told the man his parents weren't home. (!?!? Stupid boyfriend!) The man said, "May I use your bathroom?" I said, "No." My boyfriend looked surprised at how rude I was being. The man looked taken aback. "But I really need to go. Can't I just use the bathroom?" "No." Why would a grown man think that 2 alone teens would be allowed to let him into the house? Someone who wouldn't understand that kind of boundary doesn't need to be in the house with two teens.

 

The other time was a man (single, church member and 20 years my senior) who asked me (18 at the time) for a ride home when we left church. He'd hung around until I was one of the last two people left in the parking lot. I said, "No." He said, "But it's just down the road..." "No." I wasn't getting in a car with a man I barely knew. Why didn't he ask the pastor for a ride? Or another man? Why'd he wait until I was one of the last two there? Nope, not getting in my car, buddy. And not getting into an argument about it either. Just, "No."

 

I've told my sons that if they are not comfortable with a situation, even if it turns out they were wrong and the situation was fine, they are allowed to say "No" and just "No" without providing an explanation. Any time things don't add up for them, "no" is absolutely appropriate no matter how much the other person splutters or how "mean" it makes them appear.

[SKL]

Yeah, the last guy I dated did most of those things.  Funny thing is that I was more interested in him than the other way around at first.

 

My first clue that he was dangerous *should* have been the way he acted like a victim all the time.  That was his way of getting me to do what he wanted - to prove I wasn't trying to hurt him.  Crazy that I let that go on as long as I did.  It got crazier by the day.

 

I do believe he has mental problems.  However, his mental problems are way above my pay grade.  Being with him was likely to give me mental problems (along with every other kind of problem).

 

I have talked to my girls a little bit about what not to put up with.  I will continue to do so as they grow.  But considering my own experience, I'm not sure my talking will do any good.  I still can't believe a person with my brains and experience would have tolerated what I tolerated.

[Jasperstone]

In my circle, I advocate a "one strike" rule. If any of these or similar signs occur while dating, I consider it reason enough to end the relationship immediately.

 

I have come to believe in being ruthless about it, no second chances. End the relationship as soon as a red flag warning sign occurs. No minimalizations, no excuses.

 

It has to be crystal clear that these things are never acceptable and won't ever be acceptable.

 

Checking cell phones, emails or social networks without permission

Extreme jealousy or insecurity

Constant belittling or put-downs

Explosive temper

Isolation from family and friends

Making false accusations

Erratic mood swings

Physically inflicting pain or hurt in any way

Possessiveness

Telling someone what to do

Repeatedly pressuring someone to have sex*

 

*No...this should be "pressuring someone to have sex." One time is too many.

 

http://www.breakthecycle.org/warning-signs

 

Ohhhh, thank you for this!!!!!

 

How did you know I need this for someone close to me? :crying:

 

I will call her *Sam* to protect her identity......

 

Anyway this weekend Sam had a fight with her boyfriend over his insecurity over a job she did. She had to stay back an extra hour or so, as it wasn't finished on time, and he didn't like it one little bit. The next day at his place he started fighting with her arguing about the job.... and there was lots of yelling and stuff. He went for her phone, and ended up knocking his elbow hard (accidentally :confused1: ????) onto the side of her head leaving an egg and a decent bruise. She thinks she was knocked out- but can't totally recall from the shock/ fear and blow to her head etc... He is quite strong....

Anyway, she grabbed her phone and rang for the police. The neighbours had already done that when the first lot of yelling happened anyway.

 

Now Sam is trying to reason with her friends that he is really a top guy.... and is not like this normally. We have seen other warning signs though.

 

They are having a break (his terms) as he is mad that the police were involved. She is ringing him, saying she is sorry for that, and not to keep punishing her with the emotional withdrawal that he is doing to her. Obviously she loves him, but her friends and I just want her to see it's not a healthy relationship. I don't know how to handle this, so thank you for the list. I sent it to her. :sad:

 

 

[Jasperstone]

Yeah, the last guy I dated did most of those things.  Funny thing is that I was more interested in him than the other way around at first.

 

My first clue that he was dangerous *should* have been the way he acted like a victim all the time.  That was his way of getting me to do what he wanted - to prove I wasn't trying to hurt him.  Crazy that I let that go on as long as I did.  It got crazier by the day.

 

I do believe he has mental problems.  However, his mental problems are way above my pay grade.  Being with him was likely to give me mental problems (along with every other kind of problem).

 

I have talked to my girls a little bit about what not to put up with.  I will continue to do so as they grow.  But considering my own experience, I'm not sure my talking will do any good.  I still can't believe a person with my brains and experience would have tolerated what I tolerated.

 

This is EXACTLY it! Both the bolded is so true about Sam's relationship!!!! He plays the victim well!

 

Love is blind, hey!

 

[Catwoman]

I teach my sons not to be nice, too. My homeschooled boys are naieve and don't understand people who are not nice. They think everyone is kind and good. I have to tell them that some people are bad and they do NOT have to do anything they don't want to do just to be nice.

 

I have told them a number of stories of when I was a teenaged girl where men asked for things I didn't think were appropriate and I flat out said, "No" without any other explanation.

 

One was a man who was going door to door selling something. I was home with my boyfriend (I was 17, boyfriend was only 16), but we were alone and both very young looking. My (stupid!) boyfriend answered the door and told the man his parents weren't home. (!?!? Stupid boyfriend!) The man said, "May I use your bathroom?" I said, "No." My boyfriend looked surprised at how rude I was being. The man looked taken aback. "But I really need to go. Can't I just use the bathroom?" "No." Why would a grown man think that 2 alone teens would be allowed to let him into the house? Someone who wouldn't understand that kind of boundary doesn't need to be in the house with two teens.

 

The other time was a man (single, church member and 20 years my senior) who asked me (18 at the time) for a ride home when we left church. He'd hung around until I was one of the last two people left in the parking lot. I said, "No." He said, "But it's just down the road..." "No." I wasn't getting in a car with a man I barely knew. Why didn't he ask the pastor for a ride? Or another man? Why'd he wait until I was one of the last two there? Nope, not getting in my car, buddy. And not getting into an argument about it either. Just, "No."

 

I've told my sons that if they are not comfortable with a situation, even if it turns out they were wrong and the situation was fine, they are allowed to say "No" and just "No" without providing an explanation. Any time things don't add up for them, "no" is absolutely appropriate no matter how much the other person splutters or how "mean" it makes them appear.

I think you have made such an important point.

 

Often, these discussions focus on men victimizing women, but it can most certainly go the other way around as well, and we need to give our sons the same warnings that we give our daughters.

 

Let's face it, the vast majority of our sons will never become abusers or rapists; they will grow up to be fine young men, and as the parent of a son, I don't want to see him In a relationship with some manipulative, abusive woman any more than the parents of daughters want to see them dating manipulative, abusive men.

 

I think the OP's list is excellent, and that it can apply equally to both sexes.

[Joanne]

And if one of your relatives decides to cling to an abuser, teach your children that it's not OK.

I may be reading the short post wrong, and if so, please forgive me.

 

Women stay for reasons related to the abuse dynamic. I understand the use of the word "cling" here, but stand alone it does not speak of the abuse dynamic which is created by the abuser. What is "not okay" is the abuse and the trap it sets.

 

Talk to your children about that!

[Laurie4b]

It's an important conversation, and a great start to it.

 

I'd add that when *I* talk about it, it is primarly from the male on female abuse. I know that female to male abuse occurs, but I know less about the dynamic and the abuse is not completely overlapping in terms of pattern and issues.

 

For example, for this thread, I'd add that women are socialized to "be nice." We are, as children, encouraged, expected, and rewarded for being sweet and nice. We are told to kiss Uncle Joe or Grandpa good bye. Later, when we act in bold or assertive ways, we are called a bitch. We are rarely celebrated when we are strong.

 

Male abusers play on that; we learn to "be nice" and to ignore the stuff that might be screaming in our head about people.

 

Empower your daughters to be strong, powerful, and not nice.

 

Since I have sons, I"m interested in whether there is a list of red flags of female abusers, or a book you'd recommend. We also suspect this with a couple we know in terms of emotional abuse.

 

[Tanaqui]

Let's face it, the vast majority of our sons will never become abusers or rapists; they will grow up to be fine young men, and as the parent of a son, I don't want to see him In a relationship with some manipulative, abusive woman any more than the parents of daughters want to see them dating manipulative, abusive men.

 

And of course, abuse can happen in same-sex relationships as well, an issue which presents its own problems.

 

[Joanne]

And of course, abuse can happen in same-sex relationships as well, an issue which presents its own problems.

 

http://tcfv.org/pdf/Updated_wheels/LGBT.pdf

[Nan in Mass]

Laurie4b-

I have sons. One was in an abusive relationship with a woman. I'd have to say the warning list went something like this:

Extreme jealousy or insecurity
Picking a fight in order to receive compliments and reassurance
Not believing the other person when they say I love you
Making false accusations
Erratic mood swings
Possessiveness
Telling someone what to do
Moved way too fast

Son was old enough that I have no idea what else might have been involved. This is the part we (parents and brother) saw (small house). I think the rest of unsinkable's list would have manifested over time. My son recognized that this was a bad situation fairly early on but was trapped by his sense of honour. He had to wait until she "broke up" with him. She was mad at him for going out with his friends and picked a fight and despite all his reassurances, said she guessed this was the end then, thinking he would promise it would never happen again. Instead, he said ok and then ignored a year of texts and phone calls.

At the time, we all (small house, remember?) thought of the relationship as a problem of very different family styles. Then we had to deal with another person with a similar style, recognized it, and relabeled people like this as crazy-makers. Some does have to do with a more open, expressive family style, but not all of it. Being trapped by one's sense of honour and distinguishing different-family-culture from true crazy-making are things that could happen to anyone, male or female, in any sort of relationship, but I thought perhaps a real-life example might make a starting point when talking to your sons. For what it is worth, we (the rest of the family) recognized that this was not a normal relationship after listening to son's end of only a few phone calls.

The speed with which the relationship developed should have triggered warning bells but didn't because it was a long-distance relationship for the most part. That allowed us to see more of the relationship that we normally wouldn't have, as well, since much of it took place via skype or phone.

My son's assessment of the young woman is that she meant well but had no idea what part she was supposed to play in a healthy relationship and was too emotionally unstable to be able to play that part, even if she had known. I would concur.

We are the parents who raised our son to be nice, honest, and honourable. Our son needed us, his parents, to tell him that he had extracted himself from a bad situation as honourably and nicely as possible.

Hope this helps, Laurie.

Nan

[TracyP]

Since I have sons, I"m interested in whether there is a list of red flags of female abusers, or a book you'd recommend. We also suspect this with a couple we know in terms of emotional abuse.

 

 

I know a man who was the victim of a female abuser. It was mostly verbal abuse, but became physical at the end of their marriage. I suspect the lists look the same. I will highlight the red flags that she exhibited just a month or so into the relationship.

 

...

Checking cell phones, emails or social networks without permission

Extreme jealousy or insecurity

Constant belittling or put-downs

Explosive temper

Isolation from family and friends

Making false accusations

Erratic mood swings

Physically inflicting pain or hurt in any way

Possessiveness

Telling someone what to do

Repeatedly pressuring someone to have sex*

 

*No...this should be "pressuring someone to have sex." One time is too many.

 

http://www.breakthecycle.org/warning-signs

 

And, yes, the relationship moved incredibly fast.

 

The man gave her a pass all the time. "She is jealous/checks my emails because her ex cheated on her." "She is working with her doctor to get a handle on her out of control hormones." "Her family has a different way of expressing themselves." This kind of stuff sounded legit to him. IMO, no matter their gender, if someone is exhibiting even one of these, they have at best some issues that should be worked out before starting a relationship.

[gardenmom5]

I teach my sons not to be nice, too. My homeschooled boys are naieve and don't understand people who are not nice. They think everyone is kind and good. I have to tell them that some people are bad and they do NOT have to do anything they don't want to do just to be nice.

 

I have told them a number of stories of when I was a teenaged girl where men asked for things I didn't think were appropriate and I flat out said, "No" without any other explanation.

 

One was a man who was going door to door selling something. I was home with my boyfriend (I was 17, boyfriend was only 16), but we were alone and both very young looking. My (stupid!) boyfriend answered the door and told the man his parents weren't home. (!?!? Stupid boyfriend!) The man said, "May I use your bathroom?" I said, "No." My boyfriend looked surprised at how rude I was being. The man looked taken aback. "But I really need to go. Can't I just use the bathroom?" "No." Why would a grown man think that 2 alone teens would be allowed to let him into the house? Someone who wouldn't understand that kind of boundary doesn't need to be in the house with two teens.

 

The other time was a man (single, church member and 20 years my senior) who asked me (18 at the time) for a ride home when we left church. He'd hung around until I was one of the last two people left in the parking lot. I said, "No." He said, "But it's just down the road..." "No." I wasn't getting in a car with a man I barely knew. Why didn't he ask the pastor for a ride? Or another man? Why'd he wait until I was one of the last two there? Nope, not getting in my car, buddy. And not getting into an argument about it either. Just, "No."

 

I've told my sons that if they are not comfortable with a situation, even if it turns out they were wrong and the situation was fine, they are allowed to say "No" and just "No" without providing an explanation. Any time things don't add up for them, "no" is absolutely appropriate no matter how much the other person splutters or how "mean" it makes them appear.

one thing I'd like to add to this  -

 

teaching kids to listen to their guts.  I remember a guy in high school I was not comfortable with when we met.  there was just something  . . . .  but we "gave him another chance" and he joined our friend group.  my friend's mother kept going on about how "he's a nice boy".  actually, we saw a side she didn't - and it would have been better to have never allowed him in the group in the first place.

 

both boys and girls have 'warning guts' - but kids/adults are often taught to 'ignore' those warnings because they aren't always rational or logical, and we're being too harsh if we wont' let them near us.  we must be nice - like you said.  sometimes - just say "no".  in those situations, there is no explanation required.  though adding "if you don't leave I'll call 911" might prompt them to hightail it out of there.

 

 

[SKL]

Thinking more about my personal nightmare, I'd add one more thing - threatening you with harm to your friends and family (this grew out of his paranoia that if they weren't already out to get him / his, they would be someday).  For me, this ended up being essentially blackmail.  I made the mistake of telling him a dirty secret when times were good.  I lived in fear that he would use that publicly to hurt my loved ones.  Even after I left him, I continued to tread softly because of that.  For years.

[Nan in Mass]

Yes, damage from a past abusive boyfriend was the reason for the extreme doubting and distrust.  We believe that probably it was a real reason and not a fake excuse for bad behavior, in my son's friend's case, but that didn't make it any easier for my son to deal with it.  This is part of why my son was trying so hard to act honourably and nicely.  There is probably always a REASON for someone's bad behavior but as an adult, I think it is important to recognize which people you can fix and which ones are beyond your ability to fix.  When the "abuser" is young, the difference between knee-jerk reactions to past abuse and ingrained crazymaking is difficult to define.  I think in young adults, this makes recognizing abusive situations especially difficult.  I'm not saying it isn't important to get out of the situation, just that it is hard to tell a things-will-be-ok-when-we-get-to-know-each-other situation from a things-will-get-worse-no-matter-what situation.  We all come to relationships with damage from past relationships with siblings, parents, and friends.

 

Nan

[FaithManor]

Since I have sons, I"m interested in whether there is a list of red flags of female abusers, or a book you'd recommend. We also suspect this with a couple we know in terms of emotional abuse.

 

 

I can tell you that our 17 year old had a close call, and I was ever so thankful he felt empowered to "not be a gentlemen" and shove the girl away from him and then come and find us.

 

He was at a science event when a young lady introduced herself to him. The conversation began innocently enough...just two teens talking about their hobbies, science, etc., and then she began flirting really shamelessly, just practically throwing herself at him. He tried to extricate himself from her, but she began following him everywhere he went, and so he told her to please go away because he wasn't interested. Next thing he knew, she was standing right behind him groping his rearend. He hurled around, grabbed her arm, told her no and walked away. By then some people had noticed and were starting to stare so there were witnesses to the next event. She grabbed him and tried to kiss him. At that point, a couple of chaperones of the group grabbed her.

 

We had a terrible time. She managed to find out who he was on facebook from some other students, and we had to block her. Then she found our home phone. At that point, Dh got a hold of her parents and told them they better get her under control and cease and desist all contact or we would pursue harassment charges on his behalf. That ended it. What really upset us was the dad admitted this was common behavior for her and really didn't think it was a big deal!

 

She's a stalker dude...what do you think comes of this??? Nothing good for certain.

 

So, while not as common, yes there are girls and women out there that engage in the abuse dynamic, and we need to remind our kids that there is a line, a clear line, where personal safety always, always, always trumps manners and niceness. Our boys do not always have to be gentlemen. They get to protect themselves as well. Make sure they know this too.

[gardenmom5]

Although it's very true that abusive people often go out of their way to charm new people, doing their best not to show any red flags, warning signs can often still be found. Progressing to new stages of a relationship that require commitment (living together, marriage, etc) usually fast CAN be a warning sign, for instance. 

 

I found safety expert Gavin de Becker's book "The Gift of Fear" to be extremely useful. He walks readers through many non-obvious warning signs. 

 

(No, I am not doing a stealth marketing campaign for Gavin de Becker here, but I do recommend his books as often as I can. They are THAT useful.)

 

the flags are usually more subtle than the original list - but yes, they are there.  I haven't read his book - but believe I'm familiar with the concept addressed by it.  yes - we need to listen to our warning system.  even when it's "not popular".