S/o: Family Research Council (FRC).

[Tanaqui]

Well, according to today's secularists, true.  But marriage was defined by Jesus for biblical adherents.

 

...you do realize that Christianity has ALWAYS coexisted with other religions, don't you? It's not just "secularists" who say that Christians are not the only people allowed to decide what marriage is.

 

And, yet again, MANY CHRISTIANS ARE OKAY WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE. Many Christians consider that there is no rational Biblical basis against it. You do not get to singlehandedly decide who is and isn't Christian, and I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.

 

[Slartibartfast]

...you do realize that Christianity has ALWAYS coexisted with other religions, don't you? It's not just "secularists" who say that Christians are not the only people allowed to decide what marriage is.

 

And, yet again, MANY CHRISTIANS ARE OKAY WITH SAME SEX MARRIAGE. Many Christians consider that there is no rational Biblical basis against it. You do not get to singlehandedly decide who is and isn't Christian, and I'm pretty sure that's in the Bible.

I am a Christian. There is nothing in the Bible that preaches against same sex marriage, there is much that preaches against fornication so I believe it is important that they should be able to marry.

[Slartibartfast]

Culturally, that is true in ancient times, for a variety of reasons, many of which were financial or tribal.

 

Jesus defined marriage as a man leaving his father and mother and clinging unto his wife and the TWO shall be one flesh. And other NT provisions talk about a man being the husband of one wife, etc.

That quote is about divorce, it is a falsehood to try to say it is about same sex marriage. I don't find it appropriate to use one small scripture out of context, that is putting words in Jesus' mouth and that is against a commandment.

 

 

 

19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;

 

2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.

 

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

 

4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

 

5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

 

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

 

7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?

 

8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

 

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

 

10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.

 

11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.

 

12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

[Pam in CT]

I would just like to reiterate at this time that I am totally out of likes. There are lots of posts I would be liking, if I still had likes. I'm just stating it for the record.

Gah, this is such a stressful issue.  I appear still to have a few left... but I can't work out if that means I've been stingy and I'm leaving likes on the table.... or if I'm succeeding in Just Right Budgeting.  Cuz the system does seem to be Use It or Lose It, KWIM?

 

I wish there were a meter count of Remaining Likes.

 

 

 

 

...I don't like to fight with folks.  I don't enjoy a "good debate".  To me, that is an oxymoron.  ;)  But I really enjoy and appreciate reading the opposing viewpoints.  I want to understand other people's views and why they have them.  I understand my own and also those of the really "conservative" folks because I've BTDT so I read with great interest the views of the "liberal" folks (sorry for the sucky labels - don't know how else to put it).  I kind of don't fit into any of the categories any more, but I have found some kindred souls here.  And I've learned some stuff.  I'm better for it.  Sometimes my feelings get hurt.  That is a natural risk of putting yourself "out there".  (My little feelings are very sensitive, which is why I don't like to fight with folks.)

 

Most people are not nasty.  The latest spate of threads has been very civilized, IMO.  There have been times I have been gobsmacked by people's internet rudeness, though, and I feel quite sure that if we were all sitting around in a living room that things would not deteriorate so badly, so quickly.

 

I dunno.  I think we just keep talking.  Maybe we will all get better at it. :)

:iagree: Especially, I hope and pray, to the bolded.

 

 

 

People get old. Power shifts generations.

 

In the US, if only those under 30 had a vote (not that I support voting on civil rights) gay marriage would be legal pretty much everywhere. This is not an issue on which people tend to go from the affirmative to the negative position. Nearly 8 in 10 people under 30 support gay marriage. Even a majority of young conservatives support gay marriage. The ship has sailed.

 

Right.  And sometimes people in generations even older than me -- which makes them, believe me, OLD  :lol: -- shift.  My parents have.

[Cindy in FL.]

That quote is a part of His teaching about divorce. First He talks about the uniting of the man and woman (that's the marriage part) and the He says let no man put that marriage asunder (that's the breaking apart of the marriage). Not taken out of context at all. There can't be a divorce if there wasn't a marriage first.

 

That quote is about divorce, it is a falsehood to try to say it is about same sex marriage. I don't find it appropriate to use one small scripture out of context, that is putting words in Jesus' mouth and that is against a commandment.

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

That quote is a part of His teaching about divorce. First He talks about the uniting of the man and woman (that's the marriage part) and the He says let no man put that marriage asunder (that's the breaking apart of the marriage). Not taken out of context at all. There can't be a divorce if there wasn't a marriage first.

But it isn't preaching against any particular type of marriage. That is what was used in Genesis to describe marriage but then later in Genesis some people had multiple wives. So now what about Abraham?

 

There are many quotes in the Bible supporting polygamy (and many against it) but if one uses only that quote to define marriage that isn't exactly correct is it?

 

If one uses a a small part scripture that directly relates to another part scripture but doesn't include them both then that isn't the whole story. He spoke about a cleaving to his wife but at the time there was no same sex marriage (even in areas where intimacy between same sexes was encouraged) so why would that be part of his answer to the Pharisees?

[Joanne]

Right.  So one group's definition cannot take precedence over another's definition.  They must co-exist. 

 

Yes, exactly why the law disallows businesses from discriminating on that basis.

 

If you allow a business owner who sells to the "general public" to say no to a cake for one wedding but bakes for another, you are putting "precedence over another's definition."

[Scarlett]

When you say homosexuality is wrong, you tell people like my daughter that her identity and her very existence are wrong, mistakes, evil. Regardless of your intention, she hears that as hateful.

I don't believe her existence, identity etc are mistakes or evil.. And yet I believe that engaging in homosexual activity is wrong. I believe she could have a very real attraction to other females but I believe acting on that is a choice. Other people are free to have their own belief about that. Just as she is free to view me as hateful because I do not approve of her actions.

[Joanne]

No, outside those parameters it isn't a conservative Christian marriage.  Christians and the bible do not have a monopoly on marriage.

 

Heck, Christians can't agree on it themselves.

[Joker]

I don't believe her existence, identity etc are mistakes or evil.. And yet I believe that engaging in homosexual activity is wrong. I believe she could have a very real attraction to other females but I believe acting on that is a choice. Other people are free to have their own belief about that. Just as she is free to view me as hateful because I do not approve of her actions.

 

So, she's supposed to live her entire life without a partner/spouse? She's supposed to never have children or a family of her own? I couldn't force myself to like another female enough to marry or live that kind of life with her, so I can't expect those who are naturally drawn to the same sex to choose to be with the opposite. I'll be honest and say it seems cruel to think that's what others should choose, especially when it's not something you haven't chosen to do (be celibate, not have children, no family of your own, etc.). You, yourself, haven't lived that kind of life to know what it's like but you're telling others that's what you think they should choose. I really just don't get it (and I am a Christian).

[Scarlett]

I'm not particularly charming and I find that discussions like this put me in tears of rage, fear, and sorrow because I wish my daughter didn't live in a world where so many people feel justified in denying her rights and do not have any qualms about expressing their disapproval of her existence as a queer person.

You understand I hope that what happens on these boards is not a representation of real life interactions? I am not going to, unless asked, walk up to your dd or anyone like her and say, I believe homosexuality is wrong."?

 

It seems to me that what you want is total acceptance of her and her lifestyle and opinions or belifs that differ really REALLY anger you.

 

A lot of people disagree with my beliefs. I mean A LOT. I am not all torn up about it. Conviction of beliefs requires a strength to not take every dissenters opinion so personally.

[Mrs Mungo]

So, she's supposed to live her entire life without a partner/spouse? She's supposed to never have children or a family of her own? I couldn't force myself to like another female enough to marry or live that kind of life with her, so I can't expect those who are naturally drawn to the same sex to choose to be with the opposite. I'll be honest and say it seems cruel to think that's what others should choose, especially when it's not something you haven't chosen to do (be celibate, not have children, no family of your own, etc.). You, yourself, haven't lived that kind of life to know what it's like but you're telling others that's what you think they should choose. I really just don't get it (and I am a Christian).

To be fair, Scarlett herself didn't choose to remain unmarried after her divorce even though some Christians think it is sinful to remarry. That means there are people who think she is equally wrong in her actions. That obviously doesn't stop her from living her life. As long as people aren't working to make same sex marriage illegal or discriminating against same sex couples, then I *do* think people have the right to believe whatever they want, even if it is against the actions of other people...hopefully that make sense to other people.

[Scarlett]

So, she's supposed to live her entire life without a partner/spouse? She's supposed to never have children or a family of her own? I couldn't force myself to like another female enough to marry or live that kind of life with her, so I can't expect those who are naturally drawn to the same sex to choose to be with the opposite. I'll be honest and say it seems cruel to think that's what others should choose, especially when it's not something you haven't chosen to do (be celibate, not have children, no family of your own, etc.). You, yourself, haven't lived that kind of life to know what it's like but you're telling others that's what you think they should choose. I really just don't get it (and I am a Christian).

Many many people live without a partner or children. Some by choice, some not. Some are furious at it and some find joy in life beyond a partner or children.

[Cindy in FL.]

I agree with this. Well said, Scarlett.

 

You understand I hope that what happens on these boards is not a representation of real life interactions? I am not going to, unless asked, walk up to your dd or anyone like her and say, I believe homosexuality is wrong."?

 

It seems to me that what you want is total acceptance of her and her lifestyle and opinions or belifs that differ really REALLY anger you.

 

A lot of people disagree with my beliefs. I mean A LOT. I am not all torn up about it. Conviction of beliefs requires a strength to not take every dissenters opinion so personally.

[Mrs Mungo]

You understand I hope that what happens on these boards is not a representation of real life interactions? I am not going to, unless asked, walk up to your dd or anyone like her and say, I believe homosexuality is wrong."?

And I hope YOU understand that there ARE people who walk up to couples and tell them how wrong and sinful they are? You might not, but some people do. And I hope you understand that when you (general you) discuss it in public, that there are likely people overhearing you (general you) when you're talking about them.

[Veritaserum]

And I hope YOU understand that there ARE people who walk up to couples and tell them how wrong and sinful they are? You might not, but some people do. And I hope you understand that when you (general you) discuss it in public, that there are likely people overhearing you (general you) when you're talking about them.

Yes, they do. It's why I had to pull her out of school.

[Scarlett]

And I hope YOU understand that there ARE people who walk up to couples and tell them how wrong and sinful they are? You might not, but some people do. And I hope you understand that when you (general you) discuss it in public, that there are likely people overhearing you (general you) when you're talking about them.

I know that from these boards. I think that is horrible. Unkind, un empathetic, etc.

[Cindy in FL.]

I am divorced and remarried. There were people who told me that because I was divorced marrying again was not a possibility. People who were my friends at the time and remained my friends. I didn't agree with their view of the matter, but our relationships were bigger than that.

 

To be fair, Scarlett herself didn't choose to remain unmarried after her divorce even though some Christians think it is sinful to remarry. That means there are people who think she is equally wrong in her actions. That obviously doesn't stop her from living her life. As long as people aren't working to make same sex marriage illegal or discriminating against same sex couples, then I *do* think people have the right to believe whatever they want, even if it is against the actions of other people...hopefully that make sense to other people.

[Mrs Mungo]

I am divorced and remarried. There were people who told me that because I was divorced marrying again was not a possibility. People who were my friends at the time and remained my friends. I didn't agree with their view of the matter, but our relationships were bigger than that.

And how would you feel if they were writing letters, demonstrating, etc to make sure that you couldn't get married again because it didn't fit with their Biblical views? What if they were regularly posting anti-second-marriage stuff on their Facebook? If they were casually making jokes about people on their second marriages? Do you think at some point it would be too much for you to remain friends?

[Scarlett]

Yes, they do. It's why I had to pull her out of school.

I saw that in an earlier post. That sort of meanness is beyond my comprehension. I wasn't a bully as a teen and I have never felt the need to be one now. I would rain down holy heck on my son if he was EVER unkind to anyone like you have described your dd endured.

[Veritaserum]

I am divorced and remarried. There were people who told me that because I was divorced marrying again was not a possibility. People who were my friends at the time and remained my friends. I didn't agree with their view of the matter, but our relationships were bigger than that.

 

 

And how would you feel if they followed you around all day telling you how much they disagreed with your choice, how your lifestyle is evil, how you don't deserve to have love and happiness?

[Veritaserum]

I saw that in an earlier post. That sort of meanness is beyond my comprehension. I wasn't a bully as a teen and I have never felt the need to be one now. I would rain down holy heck on my son if he was EVER unkind to anyone like you have described your dd endured.

I doubt the parents of the kids that harassed her have any idea what their kids are saying and doing to LGBT kids. I would hope that if they knew, they'd attempt to correct it. I know some of the parents would approve, however. They say the same sorts of things themselves.

[Scarlett]

And how would you feel if they followed you around all day telling you how much they disagreed with your choice, how your lifestyle is evil, how you don't deserve to have love and happiness?

 

Here is the problem. There is a difference between disagreement and bullying. Your dd can't expect everyone to approve of her choices...but she can expect basic kind treatment.

[Scarlett]

I doubt the parents of the kids that harassed her have any idea what their kids are saying and doing to LGBT kids. I would hope that if they knew, they'd attempt to correct it. I know some of the parents would approve, however. They say the same sorts of things themselves.

It is hard to keep up with teens....it is one of the reasons I homeschool. I am sorry your dd has been bullied and harassed. Truly I am.

[texasmama]

In a second marriage here, too, and I caught a bunch of crap for it from some folks. I was excommunicated from the church I belonged to (prior to even filing for divorce) and lost most of my Christian friends.  My experience is partially what drives me to not do the same to others.  There are other factors, too, including one of my very best friends from high school being gay and having family members who are gay.  I am also a social worker/therapist.  In any case, my heart goes out to people who are just trying to have a life and meeting daily obstacles to doing what I can do easily.  And being remarried is not something I have to let people know unless I choose to.  I can go about with my dh and people can assume he is the only man I have ever been married to. 

 

People can't always be what we want them to be.  We can't even do it ourselves (be what we want to be and do what we think we should - and the Bible talks about that, as well), however much we want to think we can.  Grace and kindness are appropriate. 

 

The state is free to recognize any marriage it sees fit, and I am great with that.  The state does not determine my religion.  It is as it should be.  Gay people being married does not harm me or change my religion.

 

 

[Scarlett]

The thing about the state is they make laws about all sorts of things with which I do not agree. So why would I pick on how marriage is defined? I don't care. I'm am not involved in politics and I leave the out working of it all to God.

[Corraleno]

I promise though that those who feel justified in denying her rights and who disapprove of her existence are on the losing side of history. The world our grand kids inherit will be much more accepting. Thank goodness.

 

:iagree:

 

From the Pew Research Center:

 

% in favor of same-sex marriage

Ages 18-33   68%

Ages 34-49   55%

Ages 50-68   48%

Ages 69-86   38%

 

And what's even more significant is that those numbers represent an average gain of around 20 percentage points across all age groups, just in the last decade. In 2004, only 44% of 18-33 year olds and 18% of 69-86 year olds supported gay marriage. If the trend continues, the percentages among existing age groups will continue to climb, and as the next generation — my children's generation — comes of age, the percentages will be even higher to start with. 

 

Gay rights is one of the most important issues among Millennials — so much so that a large percentage say they consider it a make-or-break issue when voting for political candidates. I really think that those who are campaigning so vehemently against gay rights are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot because they are alienating a large and increasingly politically active percentage of the American population. Not to mention the fact that future history books will likely portray them in the same light as those who fought against desegregation.

 

[LucyStoner]

Gallup has support for gay marriage in people under 30 at 78%

 

At no point in the 18 years they have polled on this has approval declined. It's risen rapidly.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Gallup has support for gay marriage in people under 30 at 78%

 

At no point in the 18 years they have polled on this has approval declined. It's risen rapidly.

 

DH and I work with a lot of teens, and while this isn't a topic we bring up (has no relation to the activity) we are around the kids (mostly boys) a lot and over hear their conversations.  We have been doing this for over 17 years, and I can tell you that the attitudes in that age group have shifted dramatically, and this is in a very conservative area.

 

I probably shouldn't do this, but I do ugly laugh a little at those who are OUTRAGED that they are now being prevented from discriminating.  Deep down they know the fight is lost but they will kick and scream to the end.

[Catwoman]

And how would you feel if they followed you around all day telling you how much they disagreed with your choice, how your lifestyle is evil, how you don't deserve to have love and happiness?

What kind of horrible people would do that? Why didn't the school administration take action against them? How old was your dd when all this happened? No one should have to endure that kind of treatment!!!

 

Have you ever considered moving to a place that is more tolerant?

[LucyStoner]

For the curious, the Gallup figures:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reaches-new-high.aspx

 

The chart by age now shows that a majority of those under 50 support gay marriage and nearly 1/2 of those 50-64 support it (48%).

 

Clearly a lot of people have changed their minds on this.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

For the curious, the Gallup figures:

 

http://www.gallup.com/poll/169640/sex-marriage-support-reaches-new-high.aspx

 

The chart by age now shows that a majority of those under 50 support gay marriage and nearly 1/2 of those 50-64 support it (48%).

 

Clearly a lot of people have changed their minds on this.

 

DMIL is a member of a fairly conservative Christian denomination.  She is 78 and lives in a rural area.  On a recent family visit out of nowhere she says she doesn't get the fight over gay marriage and that why believes the Bible is against it, if two people love each other then it doesn't matter what others think.  I am positive that is not something she would have ever said 10 years ago,

[mamajag]

Could somebody tell me if all Catholics consider non-Catholics to not be married but in civil unions? IOW, is this a CrimsonWife thing or a Catholic thing?

 

What about non-Catholic Christians? Are they also considered by Catholics to be not married before God (in spite of vows and all)?

It's a CrimsonWife thing. The Catholic Church makes a distinction between sacramental marriages and non sacramental marriages but uses the term marriage for both. Non-Catholic Christians are assumed to have sacramental marriages in the vast majority of cases. In fact, despite my DH and I being atheist when we married, the fact that a minister performed the ceremony made it a valid sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Church.

[Tanaqui]

DMIL is a member of a fairly conservative Christian denomination.  She is 78 and lives in a rural area.  On a recent family visit out of nowhere she says she doesn't get the fight over gay marriage and that why believes the Bible is against it, if two people love each other then it doesn't matter what others think.  I am positive that is not something she would have ever said 10 years ago,

 

And people coming out of the closet - both about being LGBTQ or about being a straight supporter - is how others change their minds. The more you get to know actual gays and people who accept them, the harder it is to see them as aliens and monsters.

 

That goes for other things as well. The biggest factor in whether or not somebody gets a solar panel on their roof is whether or not a neighbor has one. People who see breastfeeding in their daily lives - even if it's the same person breastfeeding every time! - are more likely to breastfeed and support it in public than people who don't. If your friends all quit smoking, odds are you'll quit too.

 

 

[LucyStoner]

DMIL is a member of a fairly conservative Christian denomination. She is 78 and lives in a rural area. On a recent family visit out of nowhere she says she doesn't get the fight over gay marriage and that why believes the Bible is against it, if two people love each other then it doesn't matter what others think. I am positive that is not something she would have ever said 10 years ago,

My grandmother was well into her 80s when she died in 2010. She became accepting of gay marriage before she died, probably more accepting of gay marriage than divorce. Though she also accepted that 6 of her kids divorced and remarried and that 2 of her grandkids divorced. She was devoutly Catholic.

 

I've concluded that while people rarely change, their opinions can and do.

[Rosie_0801]

So she can believe her religious beliefs. She just can't voice them? 

 

She can under certain circumstances and can't under others. We've already spoken about this. She can say she's not down with gay marriage as often as she wants. She'll be in trouble with the law if she says "My wedding cake business won't make you gay people a wedding cake."

 

But you already know how it works and are just messing with me, aren't you?

[LucyStoner]

To the cake question, I find this interesting. Black Americans are less likely than white Americans to support gay marriage but far more likely than whites to say that wedding related businesses should be required to provide service to gay couples.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/07/blacks-are-lukewarm-to-gay-marriage-but-most-say-businesses-must-provide-wedding-services-to-gay-couples/

[Pam in CT]

To the cake question, I find this interesting. Black Americans are less likely than white Americans to support gay marriage but far more likely than whites to say that wedding related businesses should be required to provide service to gay couples.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/07/blacks-are-lukewarm-to-gay-marriage-but-most-say-businesses-must-provide-wedding-services-to-gay-couples/

 

I thought this was striking as well.  It speaks to the metaphor that LaurieB made in a different thread last week, of how of some people look through a wide-lens that takes in patterns; vs. the close-up lens that only looks at single events in isolation...

 

... the strong implication being that blacks may not "like" gay marriage, but they make a connection to a pattern of what society looked like when individual shopowners / restaurants / businesses made decisions on whom to serve and whom to decline based on their personal beliefs.

 

It's already been posted, but the Green Book demonstrates what that society looked like.  Market pressures did NOT self-correct.

 

It's debatable, whether civil rights legislation changed people's hearts and minds about race.  It's not debatable that roadside diners now serve all comers.  

 

 

 

 

ETA: "shopowners," not "shipowners."  Oy.   :lol:     (Visual of huge container cargo ship at dock, with owner perched on top, making a list and checking it twice, trying to find out who's naughty or nice...)

[zoobie]

So she can believe her religious beliefs. She just can't voice them?

She can voice them while she's making the cake. She can put Westboroesque signs in her front windows. She can preach at people. She can lecture them. As long as she makes the cake. (Obviously inciting violence or threatening people and bullying behaviors are still restrictions by law.) Now SHOULD she? I personally don't lecture people on what I believe they're doing wrong in their lives. I think that would be a fairly self-isolating habit. And once she shares her opinion, don't be surprised that a counter-opinion is shared. Sometimes counter opinions take the whole thing public, which I believe you would characterize as Them trying to shut the Christian business down. Pesky thing that free speech--it works both ways.

[Veritaserum]

What kind of horrible people would do that? Why didn't the school administration take action against them? How old was your dd when all this happened? No one should have to endure that kind of treatment!!!

 

Have you ever considered moving to a place that is more tolerant?

The school said the comments and questions were to be expected since she chose to come out. They put the burden on her to deal with it. It was too much. She couldn't focus on learning. She was depressed and moody and felt emotionally unsafe at school. The staff had no idea how to deal with this appropriately and they didn't want to learn. So I pulled her out.

 

Unfortunately, moving is not an option. The city an hour north of us is LGBT friendly and has has an excellent university. I'd love for her to go there or somewhere else affirming.

[Tanaqui]

To the cake question, I find this interesting. Black Americans are less likely than white Americans to support gay marriage but far more likely than whites to say that wedding related businesses should be required to provide service to gay couples.

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/10/07/blacks-are-lukewarm-to-gay-marriage-but-most-say-businesses-must-provide-wedding-services-to-gay-couples/

 

Probably because black people aren't dumb, and recognize the risky legal precedent when you allow businesses to discriminate against certain people.

 

[Catwoman]

The school said the comments and questions were to be expected since she chose to come out. They put the burden on her to deal with it. It was too much. She couldn't focus on learning. She was depressed and moody and felt emotionally unsafe at school. The staff had no idea how to deal with this appropriately and they didn't want to learn. So I pulled her out.

 

Unfortunately, moving is not an option. The city an hour north of us is LGBT friendly and has has an excellent university. I'd love for her to go there or somewhere else affirming.

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[umsami]

The school said the comments and questions were to be expected since she chose to come out. They put the burden on her to deal with it. It was too much. She couldn't focus on learning. She was depressed and moody and felt emotionally unsafe at school. The staff had no idea how to deal with this appropriately and they didn't want to learn. So I pulled her out.

 

Unfortunately, moving is not an option. The city an hour north of us is LGBT friendly and has has an excellent university. I'd love for her to go there or somewhere else affirming.

 

The school is evil.  They need to address this because you and I both know that your DD is not the only GLBQT student there.  Wake up people. 

 

You did the right thing.  I hope she can go to the university an hour north of you when it's time. 

 

:grouphug:

[*Lulu*]

That is nice.

God's word, little "w", the Bible, was used to shame me about my abuse.

God's Word, big "W", Christ, is why I have not walked away from Christianity.

  

PEOPLE shamed you for the abuse, misusing God's word/scriptures (I won't call it "yours" because you don't want it ,didn't ask for it, and should not carry the scars of it).  .  And they should be ashamed of themselves.  How dare they? 

 

Reminds me of Romans 2:

 

21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.â€

 

Don't even get me started on Priests/Pastors/leaders who abuse scriptures and their position for their own gain or purposes. 

 

And I'm really sorry for what you have experienced.

  

And now, in present day America, PEOPLE who align themselves with the term Christian have a disagreement about what scripture says on the topic of homosexuality.

The bulk of the people who applied scripture to me and my life circumstances did so from a sincere and deeply held belief that they were correctly interpreting scripture and being kind to me by confronting me with my sin.

You say they were wrong.

The bulk of people who apply scripture to homosexuals and thier life choices do so from a sincere and deeply held belief that they are correctly interpreting scripture and being kind by confronting homosexuals with thier sin.

I say they are wrong.

There are many who claim the name of Christ who say sexual orintation is part of how we are hard wired, created, and is not sinful when it falls outside the heterosexual default.

Why is your rebuke of scripture's "misuse" in my case more valid than my rebuke of scripture's "misuse" by conservative Christians?

  

I really cannot respond to anything about your situation without any facts at all (and I'm not asking you) from any biblical perspective at all.   I don't know you, what happened, or what the people in church did.    I'm sorry that people hurt you though. 

 

I never "confront anyone with their sin", though I am happy to examine these things on a forum.  God didn't give me the job of being everyone's Holy Spirit.      If someone asks my perspective on a matter in real life, I will answer as to my perspective and that will be influenced by scripture. 

 

I do not see multiple ways to interpret the abject proscriptions against homosexual behavior in Leviticus and Romans 1.    One may legitimately argue that it's what he wants to do, or that what the Bible says about it is irrelevant, or any other honest position, but one cannot contend legitimately that there are no proscriptions.

 

 

 

.  People can believe whatever they want, but they can't support whatever they want biblically.

 

  

I've already shared that I was repeatedly raped. If you need more information than that to determine if the shaming that was done to me was scriptural......I just don't have words. I really hope I am misreading that.

 

Then why the desire to make the law of the land take that job?

If the only objections you have to same sex unions are based on your religious beliefs doesn't it follow that it is wrong to force others to follow your religious convictions?

How is that any different from any other religion trying to make one of their mandates/beliefs the law?

Conservative Christians would raise holy hell if that shoe were on the other foot.

 

Except they do. All the time. History is full of examples.

Certain sects of the American Evangelical movement have practically made it into an art form.

 

More than 24 hours have passed.

 

I would very much like to know if I misunderstood you.

[*Lulu*]

The school said the comments and questions were to be expected since she chose to come out. They put the burden on her to deal with it. It was too much. She couldn't focus on learning. She was depressed and moody and felt emotionally unsafe at school. The staff had no idea how to deal with this appropriately and they didn't want to learn. So I pulled her out.

 

Unfortunately, moving is not an option. The city an hour north of us is LGBT friendly and has has an excellent university. I'd love for her to go there or somewhere else affirming.

That is vile.

 

(((Hugs)))

 

I am so sorry that your family, most especially your daughter, have had to face this hatred.

[sunflowerlady]

I have been close to tears more than once while I read these threads. Thinking of how these kids are treated and what they go through is heartbreaking.

[FaithManor]

I have been close to tears more than once while I read these threads. Thinking of how these kids are treated and what they go through is heartbreaking.

 

I wasn't comfortable "liking" your post, but I absolutely agree. It's gut wrenching...humankind's inhumanity to humankind. Gut wrenching. I do not understand the desire to cause suffering.

[TranquilMind]

        

 

More than 24 hours have passed.

 

I would very much like to know if I misunderstood you.

I don't understand your question.

I am not sure how one could use scripture to shame the VICTIM (you) of multiple rapes.  That is what I mean by saying I do not know what happened;  I don't understand how anyone could justify that scripturally, and I'm fairly well versed in the Bible. 

 

I'm not justifying them!  I hope you didn't misunderstand me.  I cannot fathom that situation so I am trying to envision how such a thing can happen. The only thing that comes to mind is the situation of the priests raping kids and justifying it to the child as somehow something that "God" wanted and it should remain secret (sick, sick, sick). 

 

That's what I am saying here about how I don't know what happened, meaning how whoever was in your environment could justify such a thing against you using scripture.  Can't be done. 

 

I don't care if OTHERS follow my religious beliefs.  They can do what they want, and approve what they want.    But *I* (or this cake maker, or anyone else) should be free to follow them. 

[TranquilMind]

She can voice them while she's making the cake. She can put Westboroesque signs in her front windows. She can preach at people. She can lecture them. As long as she makes the cake. (Obviously inciting violence or threatening people and bullying behaviors are still restrictions by law.) Now SHOULD she? I personally don't lecture people on what I believe they're doing wrong in their lives. I think that would be a fairly self-isolating habit. And once she shares her opinion, don't be surprised that a counter-opinion is shared. Sometimes counter opinions take the whole thing public, which I believe you would characterize as Them trying to shut the Christian business down. Pesky thing that free speech--it works both ways.

Do you actually WANT someone being forced to provide a wedding-related service for you?  I don't. 

I don't ever lecture anyone, but I should be free to operate my business according to my conscience, and accept those events that do not violate it, as should this cake maker.  In practice, he could merely have said he was booked, and I am sure in retrospect, wishes he did, if he really believes making a cake to celebrate a ssm would violate his conscience. 

[Tanaqui]

TranquilMind, I don't know what happened to her, but consider the thread on rape right now. In there we have people arguing that some forms of rape aren't really rape. I know people who have left religious fundamentalism who heard the same message - it doesn't "count" as rape if she "led him on", she "should not have done that", there's "guilt on both sides", it's not "really" rape if you orgasmed or got pregnant (neither of those is remotely true), it would never have happened if she "hadn't put herself in that position", she must not have "fought hard enough".

 

Add that to abstinence only messages about girls who have had sex, even once, being like "used chewing gum" and you have an environment where young women can have a hard time even working out if they were raped or not.