S/O Doing Enough- Are expectations too high?

[Soror]

Hunter said, 

Current general expectations are higher than are possible for most families. For most families they will never feel like they are doing enough, even when they are doing too much. 

 

 

So, now I'm curious do most feel that current expectations are higher than they can reasonably achieve? 

 

 

[Farrar]

I think current timetables of expectations are pretty high in the early grades. I was always in gifted programs and there are skills, particularly in K-3rd, that are now standard expectations for all kids that no one ever expected for me at those ages, particularly in math and writing. I think most of us would agree that the expectation that a child be reading easy readers pretty fluently before they turn six is too high, but it is, in fact, enshrined in standards at this point. And while homeschoolers tend to take a more slow and steady path, I see it affecting them too.

 

For later... I don't know. It's so mixed. I think some people have unrealistic expectations of output for the upper grades. In schools, there's such an odd divergence where at the top, it boggles the mind how high expectations are for kids to carry huge academic loads and succeed at all kinds of extracurricular stuff. But on the other end, we're turning out classes and classes with of kids who can barely write, can't do higher math, and can decode but can't read higher level texts for understanding, in part because they have learned so little content for context.

[wintermom]

I'm not exactly sure whether expectations in schools and with parents are higher across the board or just different.  Perhaps there is a higher expectation in our society that students should all learn to read, write and do math, but the practicality of achieving this in the school system is completely ineffective. The result is that schools inflate their grades, allow students to continue to the next grade when they aren't ready, and use different teaching or evaluation methods to make it look like students are doing better.

 

Rote learning (memorizing math facts, verbs conjugations) is rejected at a lot of schools now in favour of other methods - methods I'm not sure have the same success rate in the long run or are just a lot easier for the teachers to implement with the students.

 

Grades and achievement are not as recognizable. Schools have "leave no one behind" policies, so that students are never repeating grades. If students can't keep up with the material, the requirements are lowered so that everyone in the group "passes."

 

Teachers highly encourage students to ask other students if they have problems. "Ask 3 before me," is a new initiative in one local high school which means that a student with difficulties should ask 3 other students before coming to the teacher for help. The teachers just don't have the time or energy to actually help all the students who need help, so they "farm out" the questions to other students in the class.

 

Working in groups is forced on students more and more. It's supposedly valuable in preparing students for common practices in the work force, but often leaves certain students doing all the work and others doing very little. 

 

 

[Jackie]

Hunter said,

 

So, now I'm curious do most feel that current expectations are higher than they can reasonably achieve?

Whose expectations? Parents' expectations? Teachers' expectations? Common Core's expectations?

 

My very general answer is, no, I don't think they're too high. I think that as a educational system, we don't allow for enough variation. Those that don't keep up get labelled negatively and are frequently doomed from an early age to be left behind forevermore. Those who are too far ahead are ignored because there's a belief that they don't need anything special and will be "just fine" in the end. This isn't new; it was the situation when I went through the school system 20-30 years ago and it remains the situation now.

[silver]

I think self-impossed expectations are what's hardest for many homeschool moms. The ones created by combining everything they see others doing. Maybe they see one mom who has kids 2 years ahead in math. And they see another who has their children learning an instrument and participating in 2 sports each. And they see another that goes really in depth with history, reading lots and lots of living books. And they see another doing science demonstrations with her preschoolers every week. Each of these moms has one or two areas where they are going above and beyond. And somehow, all these moms get mixed into one "ideal". And so, to the mom observing all of this, she feels she has to accelerate math, get her children in several outside activities, make history a huge focus of her homeschool (without neglecting any other subject), spend lots of time with her preschoolers, make all her meals from scratch each day, read aloud to her children for 3 hours every day, etc. But it doesn't work like that. You can't take 20 mothers, combine everything that each one does best, and do it as one person.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I haven't read the original thread yet, i will go do that but what came to mind when I saw this thread title was very personal.  Yes,  *my* expectations are often too high for my children.  This is a constant consideration for me.  I've never taught 7th grade before, I have no idea (other than indirect research, informal conversations) what actually goes on in a 7th grade classroom.  I don't know what is being asked of  other kids.  I don't know exactly what my kid should be doing and exactly what the developmental trajectory should be for each subject.  So yeah, I tend to expect too much - this is my personality/temperment - and then have to ratchet back, meet her where she actually is, and find a path that works to move forward.  Case in point right now is writing - my kid can have deep and analytical conversations about the topic we study, but she can't go off and write about them.  Based on her level of understanding demonstrated by discussion, I thought this would be easier for her.  But, no, apparently I"m going to have to teach her how to do this.  Ok, so another unrealistic expectation shot, so back to the drawing boards.

 

I don't necessarily think it's bad to have high expectations, but I realize that I have to really pay attention, be realistic, and meet my kid where she is.  

 

And yes, I do battle the feeling that silver articulated - it's too easy to put together a composite perfect homeschool in your head, and then feel that you fall short.  I do some things really well, but others I don't even touch.  My kids are not doing multiple foreign languages, music, art, logic, latin, or sports.  There are lots of extras they'd like to do, but we don't have time or money.  I have to keep my eye on and our focus on the basics, and the development of the skills of how to read, study and learn that my kids will then be able to apply to their interests later.  Nobody can do everything.

[musicianmom]

I come up short because I compare myself to the best private schools in the city. I arrogantly thought I could give my kids that kind of education. Now that I realize it's impossible, it's too late to go back and make the changes that would allow the kids to attend the top-notch private schools. And so we are destined for the very mediocrity which I began homeschooling to avoid. At least we avoid all the bureaucratic nonsense, age-inappropriate expectations, and bullying of the public schools.

[Crimson Wife]

In several of the heated debates on this forum, many posters have taken the position that parents who do not do a high school program that prepares a child for a selective 4 year university (e.g. not community college) are failing their children. I'm sorry, but if the parent has given the child a solid education in literacy and math through algebra, the responsibility for getting the student from community college to the 4 year school should be the child himself/herself. Young adults need to start taking responsibility for themselves rather than whining about what their parents did or didn't do for them. In my state, it is actually EASIER to win a transfer acceptance to the state flagship (UC Berkeley) than it is to win freshman admission (26% acceptance rate for transfers vs. 21% for freshman).

 

Now if HSing parents CHOOSE to do an Ivy prep secondary program, that is absolutely their prerogrative. I don't know yet whether a 4 year college is a realistic goal for my youngest given her disability, but my older two are on that track.

[mommymilkies]

I do think this can be an issue for some people.  I'm one of them. I'll admit I compare too much.  I look up school schedules and curriculum for some of the best schools and stupidly hold myself accountable for that.  Also, dh is way not interested in homeschooling methods or day to day stuff, but he overreacts at things that I tell the kids to do.  After so much school work, I tell them to take a break.  Breaks are good.  But he'll freak out if they're playing Legos when they still have part of an essay to write.  Yesterday he freaked out telling them that kids in public school would still be working.  Yes, but this is NOT public school.  This isn't husband bashing.  I've seen this attitude from many people.  When we go out for walks, field trips, or library during school hours, in particular.  That's grounds for being grilled on exactly what we have accomplished in our entire school careers.  It gets tedious.  But the biggest problem would be me for taking some of this to heart and holding myself to standards that are impossible (like dd's desired French or UK Boarding school hopes). ;)

[Soror]

It is interesting to see where this conversation has went, I'm glad I left it open.

 

Her comment coupled with an article I seen posted locally yesterday spurred me to post. The article was along the lines of anything you do is better than public schools, which is a common thought here. Where I live I think it is more common for people to chide others for doing too much than too little. 

I think self-impossed expectations are what's hardest for many homeschool moms. The ones created by combining everything they see others doing. Maybe they see one mom who has kids 2 years ahead in math. And they see another who has their children learning an instrument and participating in 2 sports each. And they see another that goes really in depth with history, reading lots and lots of living books. And they see another doing science demonstrations with her preschoolers every week. Each of these moms has one or two areas where they are going above and beyond. And somehow, all these moms get mixed into one "ideal". And so, to the mom observing all of this, she feels she has to accelerate math, get her children in several outside activities, make history a huge focus of her homeschool (without neglecting any other subject), spend lots of time with her preschoolers, make all her meals from scratch each day, read aloud to her children for 3 hours every day, etc. But it doesn't work like that. You can't take 20 mothers, combine everything that each one does best, and do it as one person.

I do certainly see this and have been guilty myself. I wonder how this is irl, what my question was originally is if you believe the expectations for your local community are too high for hs'ers. 

[kiana]

Yes and no.

 

I think that expectations of output are far too high in the early grades, period.

 

I think that high school expectations for the brightest students are too low in terms of thought required and too high in terms of busywork required. 

I think that high school academic expectations are WAY too bloody high for non-academically inclined students, whereas I think "common sense" and vocational training expectations are far too low.

 

I'd love to see a real vocational system where you could take high school courses and still graduate with an LPN, or a CDL, or a cosmetologist's license, or training necessary to get an entry-level job as an auto mechanic, throughout the US. It exists in some places but it should be available everywhere. Would the academic courses for this diploma necessarily be college-prep? Probably not. That's what community colleges are for. 

 

ETA: I guess I misread the OP's intent, because I was thinking about the educational system in general and not just homeschooling.

 

In some circles, academic pressures are absolutely far too high. But in other ones (not so much on THIS board) I see people whose neurotypical children are doing 3rd grade math in high school or not at all being told that they're doing just fine and life happens etcetera. This is not cool. 

 

I am not saying that everyone needs to be prepared to go to college regardless of interest. But I think if your neurotypical child is leaving high school under 8th grade level, you're doing them a major disservice. (This is not to say that the public schools in all areas do better. I am aware that many don't. Even the community colleges are not well equipped to deal with students at this level, and adult basic education is being cut more and more. If they're at the 8th grade level in reading and math, they can go to community college and catch up if they change their mind later.

 

That being said, I think attempting to be better at EVERYTHING than the public schools can be equally disastrous. Part of "rabbit trails" is that they're not going to be achieving at the same level in all subjects. You may have to drop something back in order to make room for others. You may end up with a child who could easily have done calculus as a 9th grader doing algebra 1 instead because their real passion is linguistics and they're working on their 7th language, and that's Just Fine. 

[Farrar]

This is an interesting discussion. I find it hard to generalize about homeschoolers - some have expectations that are too low, others that are too high and everything in between. But the expectation that I've seen from a few homeschoolers that I find the most unrealistic is the people who want to beat the public schools at their own game, meet all the classical style rigor expectations, and somehow have a relaxed, time for rabbit trails, etc. approach and reap all the benefits of that type of open ended homeschooling. Oh gosh. Those are such different approaches and require that you do such different things. There are only so many hours in the day. I don't doubt that you can blend them, but you're not going to be able to do them all.

 

I suppose that's similar to what Silver said. I just see that not only is it nigh on impossible to go above and beyond for everything, but that sometimes the things people seem to want are at odds with each other. Unless you have a brilliantly gifted kid who is also a compliant, fast worker, keeping a kid above grade level with challenging coursework is at odds with giving a kid lots of open ended free time or being willing to pause to explore rabbit trails all the time.

 

In total agreement with others that the key is not that we prepare students to go into selective four year colleges, but rather that we do enough to leave the door open for college, community college being one great route.

 

I think the benefits of homeschooling shouldn't have to be judged by the same yardsticks as school to have been successful. There are a lot of elements to education - leadership, confidence, self-motivation, technical skills, etc. - that can be just as important to success in life and in which homeschooling can have an edge.

[Miss Tick]

Soror, I was struck by that same quote from Hunter, and I wondered what she was referring to and if it did or did not apply to me. I am a textbook victim of Silver's "amalgamated ideal homeschool mom". My dc are not doing literature at the level of 8's dc, or writing like Rose's or doing science like Lewelma's, they aren't bilingual, self-motivated or world travellers. I regularly have to evaluate these internalized "standards" and decide if they are rational or reasonable for my dc, otherwise I get depressed and we miss an opportunity to meet reasonable goals at a level that WE are capable of.

 

The article was along the lines of anything you do is better than public schools, which is a common thought here.

I hear this comment occasionally irl, but I feel like I rarely hear it here. Even less so as the discussion moves out of the primary grades.

 

As to what local schools are doing, and whether their standards are reasonable I feel like I have no way to tell. My state requires me to share nothing with them, but in turn, they share nothing with me - no list of textbooks or online list of available courses. All I see is the electronic sign advertising their high rankings, super (unbelievably?) high graduation rates, and plethora of extracurriculars.

 

I circle back to Arctic Momma's point about the family ties we are building on top of trying to achieve the highest academic levels we are capable of in all we have chosen to do.

 

Are standards too high? I don't know, I can only affect my own.

[Crimson Wife]

 what my question was originally is if you believe the expectations for your local community are too high for hs'ers. 

 

OK, I thought you were asking about Hunter's comment in the other thread regarding selective 4 year university vs. community college as a goal. That is something that has come up a number of times on this forum, typically in the threads on the "Quiverfull" movement and that "Coalition for Responsible Home Education". That's where I thought you were going with this thread.

 

In my neck of the woods, there is a real split. On the one hand, you've got the "unschooling" crowd. Some of the "unschoolers" have high academic aspirations for their children but there are also lots who strike me as being anti-intellectual and discouraging of higher education (even trade school or community college). On the other hand, there are a lot of parents who are super-concerned about meeting the state and now Common Core Standards and basically replicating PS at home. I've been shocked at the number of HSers I've met who use all PS textbooks in all subjects. Maybe it's because most families do not HS for high school but rather send their kids to public or private school or early college at the CC.

 

So I don't think the expectations are too high, just very different from my own goals regarding education. I have no interest in replicating PS or in "unschooling" so sometimes I feel like the odd one out.

[Farrar]

I come up short because I compare myself to the best private schools in the city. I arrogantly thought I could give my kids that kind of education. Now that I realize it's impossible, it's too late to go back and make the changes that would allow the kids to attend the top-notch private schools. And so we are destined for the very mediocrity which I began homeschooling to avoid. At least we avoid all the bureaucratic nonsense, age-inappropriate expectations, and bullying of the public schools.

 

When I read this, I think I pictured someone with older kids, looking back, but then I saw your sig. Your oldest is 9! And is doing a solid schedule of stuff. Do you really think he's mediocre? Or that you can judge now what his path is going to be?

 

I guess... when people embark on homeschooling with the idea that "anything I do is better than public schools" then I think they are bound to be disappointed when their kids begin to look at opportunities in life that depend on academics. But there are so many ways for us to prepare kids with a really solid education. Maybe it's not exactly the same as an expensive private school but I don't think following a WTM style education measures up as mediocre.

[Wildiris]

"Doing enough" is subjective. I suppose that is where standards come from. Folks need a common language when discussing what a_____grade should know. The idea that those standards are national and do not vary from state to state and district to district is one way of ensuring all students are "Doing Enough" no matter where they live in the US.

 

Should homeschooler adhere to these standards? Maybe, maybe not.

 

The homeschooler vs the public schooler is a tired comparison. I do not think anything a homeschooling family does is necessarily better than what a public school does with its students.

 

Are expectations too high? No. But just because a public school or a homeschooler has high expectations does not necessarily mean that they can always meet those expectations. Kids come to homeschool and public school with learning strengths and weaknesses. At least with homeschooling a parent has more of an opportunity to challenge a student's' strengths and and build up a student's weakness.

 

Not all public schools are good at addressing student learning styles. Some public schools are asked to do a lot of extra social work in addition to academics. 

 

 

 

 what my question was originally is if you believe the expectations for your local community are too high for hs'ers. 

Community wise, expectations are too low. Yikes, anything goes.

[MysteryJen]

In reading Hunter's statement, I didn't think of homechoolers, per se, but rather what parenting has become. Especially in upper middle class areas. I am in a unique position, in that we live in a lower income area and yet, most of my time (due to swim team) is spent in a fairly wealthy town. In the wealthy town, the schools are very good, yet have, imho, developmentally inappropriate expectations. Especially for writing, but I have come to see, for math as well. These expectations create a miasma of anxiety around school. These are good kids, smart kids with highly educated parents, and the expectation is that they will all make A's, all the time. Homework can take hours, but extracurriculars (not uncommon to hear about college applications with 6th grade parents) must go on. On top of that, dinner must be healthy, organic, and made from scratch. 

On the other hand, the parents in the area where I live just try to do their best. The kids usually do one sport. Only a few do music outside of the opportunities the schools provide (which is great in some schools, non-existent in others). These are the parents running in with a McDonald's bag in the space of the pickup between work and activities. Yet, the anxiety about their kids future is lower. They are much more willing to have them go to CC and figure it out themselves. Many of these parents did not go to college, or went later in life. Are these parents' expectations too low? I don't think so. 

I know that I have fairly high expectations for my kids. But they are tempered by reality. Not every kid is going to make all A's, be a musical genius, a gifted athlete. Having expectations of all those things is crippling not just for the child, but the parents as well.

[regentrude]

So, now I'm curious do most feel that current expectations are higher than they can reasonably achieve? 

 

No, I do not. I come from a country where academic expectations in public school are significantly higher than they are in the US (and where, at the same time, students interested in a career that does not involve higher education receive a thorough vocational training for pretty much any kind of job as part of the mandatory schooling.)

 

I think expectations here are too low for many students. In my capacity as a college instructor I encounter many young people who made it through high school without ever having to make a serious effort or encountering a challenge; they enter college without the skills necessary to succeed because they have never been taught to study or do anything that does not come easy. Our nation is doing the bright young people a disservice by letting them coast through a school system where expectations are geared towards the mediocre. These kids are smart - but they have been led to believe that everything is easy and that struggling must mean they are stupid.

(One the flip side, some expectations towards the low performing students are ridiculously unrealistic).

 

ETA: And the biggest problem in this country is that it is all backwards: young kids are pushed towards academic skills they have trouble mastering and 5 year olds are expected to put in 7 hour school days- while OTOH students in the middle grades are parked in a limbo with pretty much nothing being taught in grades 5 through 8. Elsewhere, it is exactly the opposite: young kids start gently, with half days at school, and in 5th grade expectations are building up.

[8filltheheart]

Focusing on the intent of your question, homeschoolers known IRL, my response is no, they do not expect too much. I do not know many homeschoolers IRL who are at all like the avg posters on these forums. (Kathy and I are friends and used to live near each other until we moved. She is the exception and far from the rule of the homeschoolers I know.) Most homeschoolers I know IRL fall into 2 categories: realistic expectations or below avg. expectations.

 

The typical trends I have seen over the yrs are too high expectations for primary grades, realistic expectations for elementary/lower middle school, and below avg expectations for high school.

 

FWIW, I don't have across the board expectations for all my kids other than mastering material at the highest level they are capable of achieving personally. Those levels are definitely child dependent and do not resemble one another. My kids are also expected to help guide their high school courses toward their long term objectives. I think the high achievements of a couple of my kids tend to overshadow the very avg achievements of my other kids even though both are very real outcomes here.

[regentrude]

Focusing on the intent of your question, homeschoolers known IRL, my response is no, they do not expect too much. I do not know many homeschoolers IRL who are at all like the avg posters on these forums. (Kathy and I are friends and used to live near each other until we moved. She is the exception and far from the rule of the homeschoolers I know.) Most homeschoolers I know IRL fall into 2 categories: realistic expectations or below avg. expectations.

 

The typical trends I have seen over the yrs are too high expectations for primary grades, realistic expectations for elementary/lower middle school, and below avg expectations for high school.

 

My personal experience with IRL homeschoolers is the same.

I do not know anybody who has unrealistically high expectations for their kids, but I know several who expect far less than their kids would be capable of.

[SkateLeft]

I have no idea what my community expects of homeschoolers. I don't really pay much attention to what other people expect anymore.

[Farrar]

ETA: And the biggest problem in this country is that it is all backwards: young kids are pushed towards academic skills they have trouble mastering and 5 year olds are expected to put in 7 hour school days- while OTOH students in the middle grades are parked in a limbo with pretty much nothing being taught in grades 5 through 8. Elsewhere, it is exactly the opposite: young kids start gently, with half days at school, and in 5th grade expectations are building up.

 

I agree. This is part of why I'm always hesitant to say, "expectations are too low," because somehow, in the US, this seems to mean, "therefore, we need to start them on calculus by age 7 or they'll be behind forever," or some similar nonsense. To me, expectations are just all wrong at every level.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I agree. This is part of why I'm always hesitant to say, "expectations are too low," because somehow, in the US, this seems to mean, "therefore, we need to start them on calculus by age 7 or they'll be behind forever," or some similar nonsense. To me, expectations are just all wrong at every level.

 

:iagree:

[Kidlit]

Focusing on the intent of your question, homeschoolers known IRL, my response is no, they do not expect too much. I do not know many homeschoolers IRL who are at all like the avg posters on these forums. (Kathy and I are friends and used to live near each other until we moved. She is the exception and far from the rule of the homeschoolers I know.) Most homeschoolers I know IRL fall into 2 categories: realistic expectations or below avg. expectations.

 

The typical trends I have seen over the yrs are too high expectations for primary grades, realistic expectations for elementary/lower middle school, and below avg expectations for high school.

 

FWIW, I don't have across the board expectations for all my kids other than mastering material at the highest level they are capable of achieving personally. Those levels are definitely child dependent and do not resemble one another. My kids are also expected to help guide their high school courses toward their long term objectives. I think the high achievements of a couple of my kids tend to overshadow the very avg achievements of my other kids even though both are very real outcomes here.

Here's my question, which may be off topic-- how do I know what my child's "highest level of achievement" is?

[texasmama]

ETA: And the biggest problem in this country is that it is all backwards: young kids are pushed towards academic skills they have trouble mastering and 5 year olds are expected to put in 7 hour school days- while OTOH students in the middle grades are parked in a limbo with pretty much nothing being taught in grades 5 through 8. Elsewhere, it is exactly the opposite: young kids start gently, with half days at school, and in 5th grade expectations are building up.

I agree with this.  I am aghast at the output expected of the early elementary grades in public school.   I don't know that pretty much nothing is being taught in grades 5-8, but your point is well-taken that a different approach would be better. 

[Arcadia]

Here's my question, which may be off topic-- how do I know what my child's "highest level of achievement" is?

 

I can't even tell my own even though I was labeled underperforming by the school psychologist and teachers.

I do believe in stretching my kids and not bother knowing where their "ceiling" is. What my hubby commented was that our kids try more things because they haven't been told it's too hard.

[Jackie]

Homeschoolers in my area cover a very wide range. On the one hand, I live in a state with no regulations and it is not uncommon for parents with zero intention of educating their children in any way to declare they are homeschooling them, essentially creating elementary-aged dropouts. On the other hand, this is a college town; several of the professors homeschool and have very high standards and easy connections for their children to take advantage of. And there's a lot of middle ground.

 

I do have very high standards. I coasted all the way through school, was never challenged, and made excellent grades in "advanced" classes. I attended an academically rigorous liberal arts college, where I changed my major because when I found I had to work in the classes I assumed it was because the subject was not a good fit for me. That was a stupid decision, which likely would not have been made if anyone had ever once presented me with the idea that I was *supposed* to work hard. I'm determined that my daughter will have to *work* at learning. Academics already come easy for her, so I suspect this course load will look insane at some point. I expect I will have to reevaluate at times to find that balance between challenge and enjoyment. But I'm glad about the higher standards on this board because they help me set my own goals.

[texasmama]

I think that my expectations for myself as a parent-teacher are too high.  My expectations of my kids are generally pretty appropriate.

[8filltheheart]

Here's my question, which may be off topic-- how do I know what my child's "highest level of achievement" is?

 

My simple philosophy is that I expect my kids to perform at the level where I know they can thrive with effort but not wilt under the challenge.   I interact with my kids so much that I can basically "read" that point in their work.  

[Kidlit]

My simple philosophy is that I expect my kids to perform at the level where I know they can thrive with effort but not wilt under the challenge. I interact with my kids so much that I can basically "read" that point in their work.

I think I usually know this, too. For my eldest, it's the point of slight frustration that forces her to try a little harder. It's a fine line, though.

[ocelotmom]

I think current timetables of expectations are pretty high in the early grades. I was always in gifted programs and there are skills, particularly in K-3rd, that are now standard expectations for all kids that no one ever expected for me at those ages, particularly in math and writing. I think most of us would agree that the expectation that a child be reading easy readers pretty fluently before they turn six is too high, but it is, in fact, enshrined in standards at this point. And while homeschoolers tend to take a more slow and steady path, I see it affecting them too.

 

I'm working through Khan Academy currently to be prepared for whatever the kids run into with it. There's stuff in 4th grade that I'm pretty sure we never touched on before high school, and I was in advanced classes.

 

I don't necessarily think it's too difficult for a 4th grader, but the expectations are definitely different.

[8filltheheart]

It's definitely not going to be perfect, I'm sure we'll have gaps here and there, but we are creating memories and I'm satisfied with that.

I think this is where being 99.9% stubborn is helpful. :P I don't worry about gaps and I am perfectly OK with it not being perfect. I am satisfied with what we do accomplish. That is what matters to me. What we don't do or get to, it is what it is.

 

I guess that is why not worrying about history rotations or following typical lit studies, etc just doesn't bother me in the slightest. My dd has spent months on Russian history as a high school student. Should she be focusing on Western civ or world history in order to have a better, generalized overview? Maybe, but the difference it doesnt bother me one iota. ;) And she loves what she is studying.

[musicianmom]

When I read this, I think I pictured someone with older kids, looking back, but then I saw your sig. Your oldest is 9! And is doing a solid schedule of stuff. Do you really think he's mediocre? Or that you can judge now what his path is going to be?

 

I guess... when people embark on homeschooling with the idea that "anything I do is better than public schools" then I think they are bound to be disappointed when their kids begin to look at opportunities in life that depend on academics. But there are so many ways for us to prepare kids with a really solid education. Maybe it's not exactly the same as an expensive private school but I don't think following a WTM style education measures up as mediocre.

 

A list of curriculum does not a WTM education make. The SotW and Apologia are pretty much bare bones because she goes to a 1x/week tutorial, and they don't make a lot of demands there.  LA, foreign language, and math are about all I can manage with her at home after dealing with the little ones.  I work part-time so there's not much extra time.

 

She'll be old enough for the "dream school" next year, and I'm going to be mourning that it's impossible to send her.  She is a very social kid, and would thrive in a classroom of other smart kids where education really is an atmosphere, rather than trying to concentrate on math while her siblings are going bananas.  

 

Another week is over, and once again I did not get to science with the little ones.  I have Elemental Science Intro to Science, which is about as easy and age-appropriate as it gets.  But my executive functioning skills are pathetic, so we're scrambling to get the basics done every day.

[Arcadia]

She'll be old enough for the "dream school" next year, and I'm going to be mourning that it's impossible to send her.

Just curious why not?

 

My boys started math and science classes at a private center and it was helpful for their social needs foremost and doing fun science labs. It wasn't cheap but it was affordable.

[musicianmom]

Just curious why not?

 

My boys started math and science classes at a private center and it was helpful for their social needs foremost and doing fun science labs. It wasn't cheap but it was affordable.

Thirty-five miles away through nightmarish traffic. And $23K/yr tuition.

[ErinE]

Another week is over, and once again I did not get to science with the little ones. I have Elemental Science Intro to Science, which is about as easy and age-appropriate as it gets. But my executive functioning skills are pathetic, so we're scrambling to get the basics done every day.

Gently, your oldest is nine, your youngest two are six and four. All high school science starts at the beginning. Your children aren't missing out on anything if you skip a science program when they are young. Take a walk, observe some bugs, visit museums. I guarantee those experiences will be more meaningful and memorable than a formal curriculum.

 

My sixth grader is reading an introductory geology text for science while watching documentaries, participating in a MOOC, and generally making observations about our area. Other than reading easier books, dd8 is doing the same (Coursera's Dinosaur 101 is excellent, BTW).

 

After using and discarding many science curriculum, I've come to trust that this method works. Over the years, I've had multiple people praise my kids' scientific knowledge and neither DH nor I are scientists. In high school, science will be more formal, but I've let my kids explore their interests and remain curious while keeping my sanity (at least in regards to science).

[Arcadia]

Thirty-five miles away through nightmarish traffic. And $23K/yr tuition.

Sorry, I assume it was a public lottery school. Basis Silicon Valley is tempting but the $25k/yr tuition makes me feel like taking my kids traveling around the world instead.

For science, my kids mainly did "kitchen science" and "catapult science". My older dislike the smell of vinegar but love the vinegar-baking soda experiment.

Back in Singapore, science isn't started until 3rd grade. K to 2nd just focus on two languages and math. My kid's assigned public school barely did any science all year.

[justamouse]

No, I do not. I come from a country where academic expectations in public school are significantly higher than they are in the US (and where, at the same time, students interested in a career that does not involve higher education receive a thorough vocational training for pretty much any kind of job as part of the mandatory schooling.)

 

I think expectations here are too low for many students. In my capacity as a college instructor I encounter many young people who made it through high school without ever having to make a serious effort or encountering a challenge; they enter college without the skills necessary to succeed because they have never been taught to study or do anything that does not come easy. Our nation is doing the bright young people a disservice by letting them coast through a school system where expectations are geared towards the mediocre. These kids are smart - but they have been led to believe that everything is easy and that struggling must mean they are stupid.

(One the flip side, some expectations towards the low performing students are ridiculously unrealistic).

 

ETA: And the biggest problem in this country is that it is all backwards: young kids are pushed towards academic skills they have trouble mastering and 5 year olds are expected to put in 7 hour school days- while OTOH students in the middle grades are parked in a limbo with pretty much nothing being taught in grades 5 through 8. Elsewhere, it is exactly the opposite: young kids start gently, with half days at school, and in 5th grade expectations are building up.

 

 

I agree. This is part of why I'm always hesitant to say, "expectations are too low," because somehow, in the US, this seems to mean, "therefore, we need to start them on calculus by age 7 or they'll be behind forever," or some similar nonsense. To me, expectations are just all wrong at every level.

:iagree: 

 

 

I have very high expectations of my own children. It is a family joke now that when my Dd 19 used to come in with a 96% on a test, I would ask where the other 4 were--it was just four...  She was totally capable of that. When I put her back in public school I saw how dumbed down the work was, and I expected her to not let herself sink to that level. 

 

That  contrasted with the mothers having anxiety attacks because their 4 year olds can't add and read, the whole thing is screwed up. 

 

[8filltheheart]

A list of curriculum does not a WTM education make. The SotW and Apologia are pretty much bare bones because she goes to a 1x/week tutorial, and they don't make a lot of demands there. LA, foreign language, and math are about all I can manage with her at home after dealing with the little ones. I work part-time so there's not much extra time.

 

She'll be old enough for the "dream school" next year, and I'm going to be mourning that it's impossible to send her. She is a very social kid, and would thrive in a classroom of other smart kids where education really is an atmosphere, rather than trying to concentrate on math while her siblings are going bananas.

 

Another week is over, and once again I did not get to science with the little ones. I have Elemental Science Intro to Science, which is about as easy and age-appropriate as it gets. But my executive functioning skills are pathetic, so we're scrambling to get the basics done every day.

I'm not sure how serious the tone in this post is or if it is more just venting. However, if you are questioning whether or not you are ruining your dd's future bc nine she isn't doing daily science, I want to echo Arcadia and ErinE's posts.

 

I see by your siggie that your dd is advanced in math, using Saxon 7/6. I have a few different thoughts, feel welcome to ignore.

 

First, Erin is completely correct in that all science starts at an introductory level both at the high school AND the university level. Not having daily science at 9 will not impact her ability to do science in the future. It might impact her love of science or her desire to pursue science, but it certainly will not impact her ability to study science.

 

My kids do not follow the prevailing wisdom "on the best approach to science" presented on these forums. Since before the WTM was printed and before these forums existed, my older kids were doing science the way I approach it with my younger kids approach it today, they read books

on science topics. They read through stacks of books on whatever science topic they want.

 

We don't do experiments. We don't spend hours hands on. We don't do huge science projects or enter science fairs. They read. Every other week or so they write a report on a science topic that I have pulled out from their reading that I want them to read more about and remember.

 

I don't control what they read. I don't require a rotation through topics. I don't attempt to "balance" their selections. I don't make them memorize any terminology.

 

Why am I sharing all of that? Bc all 3 of my homeschool grads (not including our 4th who is a completely dependent Aspie) have pursued STEM oriented careers and all have been more than prepared academically for the college level coursework. Our recently graduated high schooler, who couldn't even read on grade level until he was older than your dd b/c he is dyslexic, never touched a science textbook until 8th grade. Between 8th and 12th he took physics, chemistry, astronomy 1, AP chem, astronomy 2, cal physics 1&2, an independent study on dark matter and black holes, modern physics, and mechanics (a 300 level physics class), and biology. That is 11 science credits! And it was all built around math (he had completed math through AoPS alg 3 in 8th grade), not science exposure from when he was little. He loves math and his passion is physics. But the only exposure he had to physics prior to 8th grade was reading a few books on the topic when he was in 5th-7th grades.

 

And,you know what, no school, no matter how top notch, could have offered him what he was capable of accomplishing and ultimately DID accomplish. He is an extreme extrovert (never stops talking!!) but we found lots of social opportunities for him (having nothing to do with academics, but he had fun.)

 

Your younger kids won't be young forever. Your homeschool evolves. You find your groove. Your children get older and help direct their studies due to their own interests. You provide them the resources to feed those interests and help them explore the options. But......at 9, they are 9. It doesn't have to happen today. A world of learning takes place between 9 and 18.

 

I am not sure how you went about choosing the curriculum that you did. If you are happy with those selections, forge forward and know your dd will be fine. If you think they aren't the best options, consider supplementing or perhaps move to alternative selections. (I am only sharing that bc 7/6 for an advanced math student might not be the best fit. Saxon would drive my kids crazy.)

 

The best education for our kids doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to come in a traditional classroom form. It doesn't have to be presented by experts. (Ironically, I know nothing about physics at all!)

 

What I have found with my kids is that education needs to be owned by the student. The motivation needs to come from inside. The resources need to fan the flame for a love of learning which motivates them to always want to pursue more and have success in the process. They don't have to have textbook labels or vocabulary/short answer/tests assignments. The successes are measured according to their abilities, not according to any other outside standard. And those successes and the interests end up becoming so much more....college majors, careers, and thriving adults,

 

I have no idea if any of that makes sense or if it even fits any of your interior conflict (if that even exists.) I just didn't want you to feel like somehow your dd was going to miss out on "life" b/c she can't go to a dream school. There are many paths to the same end. What I shared is just ours.

[Violet Crown]

Just wanted to reiterate a point 8 makes above. Great Girl likewise is in an honors STEM program, but we did very little science. Around middle school age she read through a series of British general science texts, and she played a lot with a good chemistry set. I have no science education at all; I had to give up on BFSU for Middle Girl because I couldn't grasp concepts intended for first-graders. I teach our children the humanities; dh teaches them math. And strong math, not at all early science, is what prepared Great Girl for where she is now.

I don't think that parental expectations of their own homeschooled children are too high, if that's what the question is.  I've found that homeschoolers are all over the map.  I'd be hard pressed to come up with a single expectation that applies to all or even most homeschoolers.  If anything, there's the common expectation that homeschooling will be better for their children than some aspect of public school.  Maybe that aspect is Math, or overall academics, or maybe it is the ability to be on a competitive gymnastics team, or to train for the national spelling bee.  Maybe it is character education, or lack of bullying or maybe it is the self-development that unschoolers crave.

 

And, as far as expectations the public school have, they are neither too high nor too low, in my opinion, they are just wrong:  the expectation is that their students will score a certain level on standardized, multiple choice tests in reading and math, and nothing else really matters.  My personal expectations have little to do results on such tests.

[texasmama]

What I have found with my kids is that education needs to be owned by the student. The motivation needs to come from inside. The resources need to fan the flame for a love of learning which motivates them to always want to pursue more and have success in the process. They don't have to have textbook labels or vocabulary/short answer/tests assignments. The successes are measured according to their abilities, not according to any other outside standard. And those successes and the interests end up becoming so much more....college majors, careers, and thriving adults,.

I appreciated all of your post, but this paragraph is especially helpful to me at this stage, particularly the piece about the education being owned by the student. 

 

[Crimson Wife]

  Basis Silicon Valley is tempting but the $25k/yr tuition makes me feel like taking my kids traveling around the world instead.

 

FWIW, I've heard through the grapevine that the $25k/yr tuition is a "teaser" rate to fill the school and that the tuition will eventually go up to $40k/yr. Makes me furious that my friend who lives in AZ gets to have a tuition-free BASIS charter school for her kids, but the only one here in CA is a pricey private school.

 

[wapiti]

From reading through this thread, it sounds like most or all would agree that expectations ideally would be tailored to the individual and that the difference between the custom-fit expectations of the homeschool and the one-size-fits-all expectations of the PS will naturally vary over the years.

 

My simple philosophy is that I expect my kids to perform at the level where I know they can thrive with effort but not wilt under the challenge.   I interact with my kids so much that I can basically "read" that point in their work.  

 

Just to emphasize this - IMO this is one of the most significant advantages of homeschooling.

[Chrysalis Academy]

I have to confess, I checked out a local accelerated middle school charter this morning - not to send my kids! but just to see what they are doing in 7th-8th grades.  I found that what we were doing met or exceeded what they were doing across the board, as well as having the benefit of being tailored to my dd's interests (i.e. she gets to read books she's interested in, rather than picking them off a booklist).

 

Does it matter?  I guess not.  But I do hold myself to the standard that what we do at home has to be at least as rigorous as the most rigorous affordable local option ( I don't try to hold us to the standard of the local $25k IB private schools, for example.  That wouldn't be an option for us anyway).  That's just me, based on my own goals for my kids re: keeping doors open for college/STEM careers.  Now, how we go about meeting the expectations is totally different, but yeah, I admit that I do pay attention and hold what we do up to the public/charter schools as a floor/minimum.

[Kidlit]

I'm not sure how serious the tone in this post is or if it is more just venting. However, if you are questioning whether or not you are ruining your dd's future bc nine she isn't doing daily science, I want to echo Arcadia and ErinE's posts.

 

I see by your siggie that your dd is advanced in math, using Saxon 7/6. I have a few different thoughts, feel welcome to ignore.

 

First, Erin is completely correct in that all science starts at an introductory level both at the high school AND the university level. Not having daily science at 9 will not impact her ability to do science in the future. It might impact her love of science or her desire to pursue science, but it certainly will not impact her ability to study science.

 

My kids do not follow the prevailing wisdom "on the best approach to science" presented on these forums. Since before the WTM was printed and before these forums existed, my older kids were doing science the way I approach it with my younger kids approach it today, they read books

on science topics. They read through stacks of books on whatever science topic they want.

 

We don't do experiments. We don't spend hours hands on. We don't do huge science projects or enter science fairs. They read. Every other week or so they write a report on a science topic that I have pulled out from their reading that I want them to read more about and remember.

 

I don't control what they read. I don't require a rotation through topics. I don't attempt to "balance" their selections. I don't make them memorize any terminology.

 

Why am I sharing all of that? Bc all 3 of my homeschool grads (not including our 4th who is a completely dependent Aspie) have pursued STEM oriented careers and all have been more than prepared academically for the college level coursework. Our recently graduated high schooler, who couldn't even read on grade level until he was older than your dd b/c he is dyslexic, never touched a science textbook until 8th grade. Between 8th and 12th he took physics, chemistry, astronomy 1, AP chem, astronomy 2, cal physics 1&2, an independent study on dark matter and black holes, modern physics, and mechanics (a 300 level physics class), and biology. That is 11 science credits! And it was all built around math (he had completed math through AoPS alg 3 in 8th grade), not science exposure from when he was little. He loves math and his passion is physics. But the only exposure he had to physics prior to 8th grade was reading a few books on the topic when he was in 5th-7th grades.

 

And,you know what, no school, no matter how top notch, could have offered him what he was capable of accomplishing and ultimately DID accomplish. He is an extreme extrovert (never stops talking!!) but we found lots of social opportunities for him (having nothing to do with academics, but he had fun.)

 

Your younger kids won't be young forever. Your homeschool evolves. You find your groove. Your children get older and help direct their studies due to their own interests. You provide them the resources to feed those interests and help them explore the options. But......at 9, they are 9. It doesn't have to happen today. A world of learning takes place between 9 and 18.

 

I am not sure how you went about choosing the curriculum that you did. If you are happy with those selections, forge forward and know your dd will be fine. If you think they aren't the best options, consider supplementing or perhaps move to alternative selections. (I am only sharing that bc 7/6 for an advanced math student might not be the best fit. Saxon would drive my kids crazy.)

 

The best education for our kids doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to come in a traditional classroom form. It doesn't have to be presented by experts. (Ironically, I know nothing about physics at all!)

 

What I have found with my kids is that education needs to be owned by the student. The motivation needs to come from inside. The resources need to fan the flame for a love of learning which motivates them to always want to pursue more and have success in the process. They don't have to have textbook labels or vocabulary/short answer/tests assignments. The successes are measured according to their abilities, not according to any other outside standard. And those successes and the interests end up becoming so much more....college majors, careers, and thriving adults,

 

I have no idea if any of that makes sense or if it even fits any of your interior conflict (if that even exists.) I just didn't want you to feel like somehow your dd was going to miss out on "life" b/c she can't go to a dream school. There are many paths to the same end. What I shared is just ours.

Thank you for this, 8.

[SarahW]

 Other than reading easier books, dd8 is doing the same (Coursera's Dinosaur 101 is excellent, BTW).

 

OFF TOPIC

 

Your 8yo is doing Dino 101? Does she just watch the videos? Are the videos interesting?

 

CP loves Dinos and knows all sorts of facts about them, and I'm running out of documentaries and books that have info he doesn't already know. Just wondering if this will be a good fit for him. hmmm.....

[SarahW]

ON TOPIC

 

I know when my expectations are too high, CP will just not do anything.  :smash:

 

lol

 

He was going well with a set of cursive writing sheets, so when he was done with them, I started with the next level up. They didn't have that many more words to write, really, but I guess they looked like they did. After two hours of him dropping his pencil on the floor, standing on his head (literally), and talking about various random topics, I figured out that I should just remove that cursive program.

 

He's doing an entirely different one, now, and he is actually doing it. Maybe we'll do the other one later?

 

Imo, kids will tell you that something is too hard, but they won't say it. It's not entirely unlike learning how your baby communicates.  :D

 

 

Oh, and yeah, I mentioned on an entirely different thread recently, but I suppose it fits here too - I think the hs world (and probably our broader culture in general) does have an issue with providing so much Enrichment! curriculum for early elementary, so that that if you aren't dropping serious $$$ teaching your kid colors and shapes you're doing something wrong, but there is less attention paid to middle school and higher. It seems really backwards to me. Maybe parents get so burnt out (and poor) from the early grades they can't do anything but just limp along after that?

[wapiti]

A list of curriculum does not a WTM education make. The SotW and Apologia are pretty much bare bones because she goes to a 1x/week tutorial, and they don't make a lot of demands there.  LA, foreign language, and math are about all I can manage with her at home after dealing with the little ones.  I work part-time so there's not much extra time.

 

She'll be old enough for the "dream school" next year, and I'm going to be mourning that it's impossible to send her.  She is a very social kid, and would thrive in a classroom of other smart kids where education really is an atmosphere, rather than trying to concentrate on math while her siblings are going bananas.  

 

Another week is over, and once again I did not get to science with the little ones.  I have Elemental Science Intro to Science, which is about as easy and age-appropriate as it gets.  But my executive functioning skills are pathetic, so we're scrambling to get the basics done every day.

 

Take the words of wisdom of 8 and the other PPs to heart.  You are just getting started and there will be time to give your kids the education you have in mind.  Set priorities, different priority subjects at different stages (at their ages, science would not figure highly on my list).

 

FWIW, my experience is very limited, but when I pulled my dd out to homeschool at 9, my expectations were along the lines of high challenge/low volume - relatively deep for math, Latin and writing/grammar/vocabulary but history and science were just reading and discussing textbooks, and barely.  This was due to a number of factors, which of course included her individual ability level, learning style, stubborn personality, etc.  I emphasized quality over quantity, or maybe her resistance to quantity left me no choice :tongue_smilie:.

 

When my dd went off to private school for 6th, the curriculum was a different balance - more volume, more memorization - and she complained that I had been too tough on her.  7th was a mixture of challenge and volume.  Now in 8th, her school's curriculum finally turns much more toward deeper thinking/lower volume and dd has come to appreciate our prior homeschooling efforts so much more.  (She's even talking about starting Latin again in high school rather than continuing with the Spanish that she's been learning in middle school - not sure how that happened, LOL).

 

I would try to focus less on what you can't give your dd ("dream school") and more on what you can - homeschooling is a great chance to tailor her education to her needs and ability level in ways that won't be available at any school.  Moreover, by eliminating the things she doesn't personally need (e.g., fluff and excessive volume), you may give her the best gift of all, extra time to pursue her own interests in high school, interests that not only develop who she is but also may set her up as an especially-unique candidate should she have the ability and desire to apply to selective colleges.

[Jackie]

OFF TOPIC

 

Your 8yo is doing Dino 101? Does she just watch the videos? Are the videos interesting?

 

CP loves Dinos and knows all sorts of facts about them, and I'm running out of documentaries and books that have info he doesn't already know. Just wondering if this will be a good fit for him. hmmm.....

My (advanced) 4yo is doing Dino 101. She insists on doing the quizzes, but we just high five over correct responses and ignore incorrect ones. The videos are interesting; we're watching them as a family during mealtimes.