Religious question (NOT a debate!!)

[OnTheBrink]

I'm going to preface this, so people know exactly where I'm going and what my intention is for asking, because I am not trying to stir the pot, or make anyone feel defensive or judged. I'm genuinely curious about this and have pondered it myself and can't really come up with a reason, so I'm going to ask here, and hope that those who respond will be assured there's no hidden agenda in my question. And, obviously, no one is required to answer if they feel this is too personal. :)

 

Ok, here it is: I've seen people post here (and in other places) that they used to be Christians, but aren't because of other Christians--what they've done or said or their political leanings. My question is, Why? Is there more to it than that? Because, in my head and heart, no one can make me change my beliefs because of their behavior, so it befuddles me when I see that happen. Again, I'm NOT chastising or judging, I'm just trying to understand. For me, it's like sewing. I like to sew, but I know some other sew-ers who are just jerks. Stuck up, snobs, show-offs, but I'd never quit sewing because of them. I guess it's the same with homeschoolers. I know some great ones and some who should just put their kids in school and slowly back away, but I'd not give up homeschooling because of them. I don't even know if these analogies are accurate, so I thought instead of assuming, I'd just ask and hope for the best. LOL

 

*nervously wringing hands, hoping no one thinks I'm going to thump them with my Bible*

[saw]

the type of behaviour that is "objectionable" is done in the name of Christianity? And the response is then to wish to distance oneself from that "label"? Just thinking outloud (or should that be online? on keyboard?), not trying to pick a fight.

[Guest Amy in MS]

Good mornin'!

For me, I understand your hesitation in posting, but I'm glad you did.

 

That said. I'm a Christian, but a much different one than I was a couple of years ago. In fact, if the Me-of-5-years ago could see the Me-of-today, I probably would say the Today-Me wasn't a Christian. But I am.

 

I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I'll draft something up later.

 

My shift comes from many things, and none of it is personal. It's been a complete schematic shift. It's political. It's intellectual. It's just "where I'm at".

 

Let me tell you what has changed, and letter I'll tell you why.

 

I used to: (things that have changed)

Be a Young-Earth Creationist

Believe that Christians had a monopoly on spiritual truth.

Believe that people who weren't Christians had a spiritual "disability" for lack of better words.

Take every single word of the Bible literally.

Be absolutely convinced that people who weren't Christians were going to Hell.

 

 

 

I still:

Believe that Jesus is God's Son and died for me.

Go to church every Sunday with my family, and have my children in Awanas and pray, sing hymns and study Bible with them in the morning before homeschooling.

Wear a headcovering and dresses (!)

Have Jesus as my perfect role-model.

 

Maybe people who have never been Christians will look at this list and wonder where the big shift happened, and if it really could have been all that big.

 

Well, it was!

 

More later,

 

Amy

[Sue G in PA]

I've heard the same comments from numerous people (many dear friends of mine IRL as well as on the board) and it grieves me. And, it scares me b/c I know that I am soooo not the perfect Christian. I say things, do things, think things that are so completely opposite of what a Christian "should" say/do/think that I worry about my witness. I love the bumper sticker that says, "I'm not perfect, just saved". Jesus is the only one who led that perfect life and we are simply to try our best to be like Him. But, we are ALL sinners saved by grace. None are righteous, says the Bible. For people who are looking to us as an example of what Christianity is all about...it can be rather difficult b/c no one will be perfect as Jesus was. Just as some people now look at ALL Muslims in a negative light b/c of 9/11 some look at Christians through that negative lens b/c of of 1 Christian they knew who didn't act accordingly, KWIM? I guess the one thing that I, as a Christian, want my non-Christian friends to know is that I'm no different from them. I am a sinner. I make mistakes (many mistakes). I'm not perfect. I'm going to continue to mess up and say dumb things, preach when I should just shut up, hurt feelings, act holier than though when all I really want to do is show them the way to Christ, etc. I want them to know that *I* am not Christianity. Jesus Christ IS Christianity. What makes me different? I've accepted His free gift of salvation offered to all. I'm saved b/c I simply said, "Yes, Jesus, I believe in You, what you did for Me. Wash me clean, forgive my sins. Be a part of my life." No preaching. No Bible thumping. Just wanted to say that I do understand why some turn away b/c of other people and I just keep praying that my walk and my witness don't turn them away b/c that would just devastate me. I'm so broken only JESUS can put me back together!

[OnTheBrink]

the type of behaviour that is "objectionable" is done in the name of Christianity? And the response is then to wish to distance oneself from that "label"? Just thinking outloud (or should that be online? on keyboard?), not trying to pick a fight.

 

Ok, I can see that. There are definitely people who wear the Christian label I like to avoid.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I've found that in my post-Christian circles, people who left Christianity because of other Christians seem to need some excuse or another to justify their departure, and that one makes as much sense to them as any. It seems easier for them to spout and be bitter about others' shortcomings and their role in the unbeliever's departure from either faith or organization than to simply say, "You know, I just don't believe that anymore." It's certainly more socially acceptable. People do not believe me when I say that. They assume I must have been in the wrong church, that I wasn't a "real" Christian, or that someone deeply offended me or led me astray. And If Only I could find the right path and stop looking at the failings of other Christians (because, you know, they're only-human-and-you-need-to-fix-your-eyes-on-Jesus-not-people), all would be clear.

 

Blaming someone else is always easier than figuring out the truth or illogic of it for yourself. A shorter cut from point A to point B.

 

Personally, I miss being aligned with other Christians. They were my tribe. I don't have a tribe anymore. And it's lonely. I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

[Kelli in TN]

I don't know how to answer your question, but I do know that it scares me enough to make me watch myself. I am very, very concerned about whether or not I am an embarrassment to the Kingdom. I am grieved, I mean deep in my heart grieved, when I act the fool and make Christians look stupid or arrogant or self-righteous or judgemental.

 

I fail far more than I succeed, when it comes to representing Christ in this world, and it just breaks me to know that. I have never brought anyone to a belief in Christ, but I have probably contributed to conversations that caused people to turn away from Him.

[GothicGyrl]

And I will preface this by saying "You asked". And the "you" in my post is the general you, not YOU or anyone particular posting.

 

For me, there are many reasons, and I am perfectly capable of finding friends outside of a church. There is so much more to life than that, church should not be your only existence. I have friends from all walks of life, some Christian, some not. In fact, my very best friend in the world is Christian.

 

For me, it boils down to: I prefer company where I'm not always defending myself, not having to listen to bigoted, hatefilled discussions about how everyone is going to hell for not following your breed of faith, etc... Fortunately, so far, I've always been in a position to just walk away. But my kids miss out on a LOT of homeschool group activities because like you, I choose not to subject my children to the negativity that is being spouted. I am sick and tired of hearing "He's gay? OMG he's going to burn in hell!!" and other various exclamatory comments.

 

If we can have a discussion about politics, religion and the like WITHOUT that, then I count you amongst a friend. Otherwise, you are not worth my time.

 

Now, I'm just pulling quotes from various posts and adding on to them. I am neither agreeing or disagreeing but extrapolating on what they say.

 

Perhaps it's because

the type of behaviour that is "objectionable" is done in the name of Christianity? And the response is then to wish to distance oneself from that "label"?

 

Hence why I no longer participate in any homeschool function. Everything is done "in the name of Jesus" while the leader spouts "But we accept all kinds of people and beliefs". It's a load of bullhockey and she knows it. And I'm sick of walking in to a functin having to justify why I allow my daughter to listen to that "ebil goth music" or wear black (BECAUSE SHE CAN!! AND I AM her mother not you). There has been so much more that is worse, done "in the name of" than there has been good. You ask any former and they'll tell you everything I've said and then some. You WILL get the answer to your question.

 

Pam will be the only one I address by name:

I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

 

I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that, I got a full and wide range of friends from all walks of life that also feel free and not limited.

 

Of course I realize you(now I'm back to the general you) might come back and say "I feel free, I do all sorts of things within the Church". That, to me, is still confinement. I refuse to have my style of clothes, my music, my bedroom, my life dictated to me by anyone. And I know realize that that is exactly what Christianity is. It's a dictatorship-- "Believe in me and you will be free--but ONLY if you dress this way, believe this way, follow this way"... no, sorry. My life is so much more than that and I enjoy it very much. This causes so many people grief because they all feel they have to "save me". Sorry-- ***I AM NOT*** the one who needs saving. My life is just fine, dandy and satisfying the way it is.

 

Yes, i walked away due to the behavior of some. But I was hesitant to join in the first place. I did so for my kids. And when I saw them turning into little bigoted, hatefilled, monsters-- that was enough. I will NOT have my children walking around proclaiming everyone is going to hell because of what they choose to do in their bedroom and with whom. I was raised to love everyone, no matter what their sexual orientation is, I was raised to respect everyone, no matter their race or color and I was raised to enjoy my life.

 

The whole "love the sinner not the sin" is a lie to me. You can't say "I love you" then add a "but" at the end. It's either you do or you don't. It's that simple. I will not put conditions on love, kindness, or charity. And that's what I see the church doing--"Oh sure, we'll baptise your baby, but you must join us first".. whatever happened to "Jesus loves ALL the little children, not just the members of your congregation"?

 

Am I bitter? Doubly NOT. I've always believed like this, even when I was "saved". I just realized now and opened my eyes wider to the fact that I want ZERO part of ANY(let me stress that, ANY) organization that does not practice what they preach.

 

Disclaimer: Only one person has been named, everything is the general you, I realize "ebil" is not a word so don't waste my time, this is only my opinion--she DID ask Why and I told her. Of course I realize some might not be that way, but you are not in my life outside of this message board and even then, some of you DO act like this and that burns me, although to be fair, I've not seen it since we switched boards. This is all my OWN opinion, I am not bitter or angry, just Open Minded and finally aware. This is all my own opinion and I am simply answering the OP's question. If you are going to sling neg rep at me, have the guts to sign your name, otherwise you prove every point I've made.

 

whew....

[OnTheBrink]

Thank you all for your responses. :)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I do quite well, thank you very much. Which is another reason I chose to back away from Christianity. I am tired of all the restrictions and the assumptions that I must be one way and only one way and I can't possibly be a Christian if I'm not that way (to stress, I realize YOU didn't say this). Which is why I do quite well. I am not limited to "only" Church, I go ALL over, to many places some here would drive by crossing themselves. :) I go clubbing, I drink, I socialize with my friends, I get out of the house all the time. Church is not the end all be all of socialization and because I realize that, I got a full and wide range of friends from all walks of life that also feel free and not limited.

 

 

Well, good for you.

 

Don't know why I got a "...thank you very much," but okay.

[*anj*]

"You know, I just don't believe that anymore."...People do not believe me when I say that. They assume I must have been in the wrong church, that I wasn't a "real" Christian, or that someone deeply offended me or led me astray....

Blaming someone else is always easier than figuring out the truth or illogic of it for yourself. A shorter cut from point A to point B.

 

I can really identify with what Pam said here.

I am a Christian, and a Protestant. But I was formerly Catholic. I had been very actively involved in my parish, very friendly with the priest, etc. So when I left the Catholic church, some people were very confused. My leaving was a process that took place over time, but obviously you don't share every little personal tidbit with everyone in your circle. Anyway, after I left, there were people who were convinced that someone had hurt me or that I didn't like the new priest, or that something must have "happened." Nothing "happened", except I looked at the church's teachings with new eyes and no longer believed them. That was it. And I know that some people will say that I must have never truly believed or understood the church's teaching on xyz, but that isn't true. I was a very well educated and very well informed Catholic. I was fervently pious. It's just that over time I began to question many things and one by one I lost belief in them.

One woman even said "Your leaving makes me wonder why I am still here. What do you understand that I don't? And why don't I understand it?"

 

I don't know.

One more thing: I really struggled with whether or not to say "I was in a certain church..." instead of naming the church. I sincerely hope that any Catholics who may be reading won't be too hurt by what I've said. I wasn't trying to be divisive. And I know how I used to feel about former Catholics...

But I decided to name the church for the sake of clarity, and so that people don't have to sit in their houses wondering "Was she Catholic? Was she Mormon? Was she Jehovah's Witness?" etc.

[GothicGyrl]

Well, good for you.

 

Don't know why I got a "...thank you very much," but okay.

I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

 

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

 

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

 

So what did I do wrong now?

[OnTheBrink]

GothicGyrl,

 

Wow. I am sorry you've had those experiences. I've never felt I had to defend my choice of friends, or dress, or activities in my church and if I had to, I'd be pretty ticked about it.

 

I appreciate your and the other responses and the honesty. And, I truly hope I've NOT come across as holier-than-thou or judgmental here. I certainly don't *feel* that way, that I'm better than anyone or that I am judging them.

[GothicGyrl]

There are a select few on this board who have acted the way I said, but as I also said--to be fair--I've not seen it lately. So I don't know if that means they didn't make it over to the new board or what.

 

Well, some of them must be here judging by my neg rep comments, but as I said before--if you can't leave your name, it isn't worth my time.

 

And don't be sorry for me, Sola. It's just how it is. There are many like me who feel like I do and have been treated the same. We just grow up, out and move on. :)

[Kate in Arabia]

I was raised Christian and converted to Islam as an adult (some fifteen years ago). I didn't leave Christianty because of anyone, nor did I choose Islam because of anyone. I get that question *a lot* -- "did you convert for your husband?" It was a long process for me (years) and did not involve the good or bad actions of anyone from either faith.

[Amy in NH]

Toni,

 

I believe Pam is of the used-to-be variety, and really truly is feeling lonely and isolated not knowing how to find a good community of IRL friends outside of a church setting. Maybe it would be helpful to her (and me) to hear about how you find friends IRL, because people I can really relate to IRL are few and far between.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I am pretty sure I am confused, but (Pam) are you coming from an "I AM a Christian" or "I think I am" or "I was but now I'm just searching" or something else?

 

Because your last statement the one about not being able to understand how we socialize outside of church, is what brought my "thank you very much" on. It came across as a "I can't fathom any other way so they must not be getting any if they aren't getting it from church".

 

And I'm also not sure why the venom in your post towards my response to you as I was just answering what I perceived that statement to mean.

 

So what did I do wrong now?

 

You didn't read my post. Simply that, I think. And I answered your question directly about a week ago. No, I'm not a Christian.

 

Good for you, that you know how to do it. (That's venomous? Hmmm. My apologies. I'm not sure how to say good for you in a way that could be taken as anything but as pleased that you have such great social skills even thought I don't. Sorry that was venomous, and I guess I should stop and try another day.)

 

How's this: I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

 

I hope that was less venomous.

[Storm Bay]

So I've been on a few sides of this. I was a devout young child and even helped teach Sunday School when I was 14 (I volunteered--no one would have thought to ask me because I certainly didn't fit the stereotype of teen helper!!!). I left at 15 for many reasons. For one, I thought it was hypocritical to go to church every Sunday but do nothing else with it. I went to an Anglical church and the minister at that time was a lot like the first one described in Anne of Green Gables--old, monotone voice, no life to it.

 

I searched many, many placed for answers. Spiritualism, Buddhism and a number of others. I had my own very strong ideas that I developed. When I went to university I found that nothing I studied fit together when I examined it.

 

In the end, I became a very biblically based Christian, but I accept only what I can see from Scripture, not tradition. I am far from perfect, but this is all that makes sense when I really examine it closely. I have many interesting discussions with many people who don't all think the same way as me because I truly believe that everyone has free will.

 

I have seen some people be very, very hurt by people in the name of Christianity, and even left a church that had become abusive (started off wonderful.) I have seen people very, very hurt, including me. But not everyone in that church was abusive and there are still some wonderful people there. The reason I still believe what I do is that I put my trust in God, not in people. You can't find any perfect people.

 

One of the most welcoming people in my first homeschooling group was Nadia, who is Muslim. She is kind, gracious and very much given to that Danish hospitality. Another was a Christian in a different denomination than me with some very different theological beliefs. Nadia and I have each moved, but here she is on this board.

[GothicGyrl]

The I owe Pam and Amy in NH an apology. I am sorry I took your post Pam, wrongly. :(

 

How's this: I am so pleased that you know how to navigate socially and have a great circle of friends even though I have not figured this out yet. Which is what I thought I said in my first post. Everyone else seems to know how to do this and I don't and that makes me sad. For me, though, not for them. Good for others that they "get" how to do it.

 

This is why I took it so wrong--I did not get that in the original post. So that's why I apologize. :(

 

As for helping you find IRL friends outside of church--I don't know that I can. As I said, I've got a very select group of friends (only select in activity, not personality), and I am not so sure that is what you want. I kind of think it's cliche for anyone to say "Go clubbing", :) because that really isn't for everyone. (And I think I've used up all four smilies, so just insert a smiley wherever).

 

Is it that you can't make friends because you don't get out or don't know where to go, or that you go to those places and people don't seem to want to make friends beyond idle chit chat?

 

If it is the second one--for me, I'd say "sod off then". Because anyone who is worth a friendship, WILL come to you (and likewise you will show up for them at the right time). It'll just happen.

 

If it is the first, in that you just don't know where to go-- umm, hmm.... again, I'm not sure my kind of places are your kind. I do Ybor City (which is tons of clubbing and nightlife), and I have a network of friends from there, message boards we are all on. I do bowling, which means I join adult leagues and I've made one good friend that way. To me, even one friend is the best friend ever.

 

If I knew more of what you like, I could give ideas. But for me, it's all about the dancing, music, dressing up and weirdly and having fun. It's just what I do.

[j.griff]

Wow. I am Christian, but I have walked away from church for many of the reasons GothicGyrl posted. I don't feel a need to "join" a group of people to be "saved". I want to love everyone, and not judge them for anything. That doesn't mean I'll Like everyone, LOL- but I can choose to accept people as they are. I would much rather be a spokesperson for Christianity by LIVING the Truth instead of preaching it at people. And I surely don't want to be a "member" of a group of people that just don't have beliefs that line up with mine- and who are unaccepting of people who disagree (you don't agree with the sermon x gave this morning? why? you must not understand what he was saying, you must need an elder to counsel you, surely there is some way we can brainwash you into seeing it OUR way, because OUR way is THE way). <sigh>.

Now I can't stand how other "Christians" judge me for not attending church (IMO church is the place where people give their tithes, and that money is used to build bigger buildings, pay for the current building, put new carpeting in the sanctuary, etc- but it is NOT used to HELP the needy, because the needy aren't members of that church).

Okay, so that is MNSHO, and I don't want to debate with anyone about it LOL, and I don't want/need anyone to tell me that I am wrong or misguided. :)

[GothicGyrl]

Now I can't stand how other "Christians" judge me for not attending church (IMO church is the place where people give their tithes, and that money is used to build bigger buildings, pay for the current building, put new carpeting in the sanctuary, etc- but it is NOT used to HELP the needy, because the needy aren't members of that church).

 

This is another real beef of mine. Where are all the people who are called by God, in the bible, to help out the poor, the needy, the elderly, the alone and pregnant, etc...? It becomes a "not unless you are a member" game. I was told in my former church (evangelical, I know I know) that it IS "all about the numbers". If you tithed this much this week, "Tithe MORE. We need more!!"

 

One of my very biggest upsets is abortion clinics. Ok--you are pro-life, I'm seriously not knocking you for that, honestly. But umm, that clinic you are protesting and working to keep women from having one in--what do you do after you "Win"? Do you actually HELP that woman (who may very well be having one because she simply and honestly can NOT take care of it, and for whom adoption is not the answer as it isn't for most) take care of that child? Do you direct her to services for medical? Housing? Substance abuse?

 

Or you do stand there and count the win? :( Sadly, I can also answer this, they stand there and count the "win". I was flat out told "It is not my job to help them, only to stop them from killing their child, that's more important than anything else".

 

So is food, basic shelter.. what if she really does not have that? "Doesn't matter, the child lives".

 

See where I'm going with this? Where is the True Christian love, kindness, charity?

[Rich with Kids]

I kinda "lost my innocence" with religion recently. I am a member of a large baptist church and I am fed up with the church politics and hypocrisy. I still attend this church because the children's program and the youth program are outstanding. S.S., AWANAS, Upward Basketball, VBS, summer camp, mission trips...that's just a partial list! As an adult, though, I see so many people that put on their "church face" and it's sickening. So, for me, our church is mostly socialization. I try my best to keep my personal relationship with Christ on track by being accountable to my dh (and him to me) and working in the Children's ministry. I'm not a church hopper, so we are trying to stick it out, hoping things change.

 

edit- I am accountable to God. DH and I help each other stay that way.

[Mekanamom]

And I can relate to both Pam and Anj...

 

I'm not going to name my former church. ;) But there is an assumption that I (or anyone who leaves) did so because someone "offended" me. (Or because I was too lazy to follow the teachings and wanted to sin. LOL, that's assumption #2.)

 

It wasn't the people in the church, or the way the church was run that made me leave. Everyone was very nice, actually. I just simply didn't believe that the teachings were true. That's really all there was to it. And no... people, especially those who still belong to that particular church, don't often believe me when I say that. There is a widespread assumption that people leave "because of other people" (or because they gave in to the temptation to sin), even when it really isn't the case.

 

Anyway. It doesn't answer the question of why a person would leave an entire belief system simply based on the behavior of other people... and I have no answer for that... well, other than people come and go in social groups all the time. But moving from one group to another isn't the same as abandoning a belief system entirely.

[Sue G in PA]

I just wanted to say that b/c I don't choose my friends based on religion. There are so many Christians I simply would not choose to be my closest friends. And, there are an equal number of non-Christians that I consider some of my best friends. Gothic Gyrl, I've been blessed by so many of your posts and by everyone else who has posted. Honestly, until now, I didn't know where many of you stood on religious matters. I am a Christian, a young earth Creationist, a conservative republican, etc. BUT, I am a woman, a mother, a wife, a homeschooler, a friend, etc. just like all of you (unless you are a guy and then not, LOL!). A Christian cannot "convert" someone else to a belief in Christ w/out the power of the Holy Spirit. AND, a Christian cannot convert someone else to a belief in Christ by judging, coming down on how they dress, how they talk, how they act, what they watch on TV or listen to on the radio, how they raise their kids, whether they smoke, drink, curse or whatever. Jesus didn't do that! He LOVED! EVERYBODY! He didn't judge! He never looked down His perfect nose on anyone and thought, "what a scum.". This is getting long, but really, I just wanted to say that there are Christians who think it their job to single-handedly "change the world". It's sad. When we point a finger, there are 3 more pointing back at us. Jesus said that we can't see clearly enough to "take the speck out of somebody else's eye" until we can "take the PLANK out of our own (my wording). I am too imperfect, too broken, too much a sinner, etc. to judge anyone else. My heart is for ALL to come to Christ, it is true,...but I realize my job is only to LOVE...not to be judge and jury. That's God's job. You ALL are such amazing people. I LOVE the diversity on this board and learn something new every day. I've been so blessed by so many encouraging words when I felt like just throwing in the towel. I'm not trying to put an end to this post...it is very interesting. Just know that I love you all and appreciate you all regardless of your religious choice. If I have come across wrong...forgive me.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The I owe Pam and Amy in NH an apology. I am sorry I took your post Pam, wrongly. :(

 

I'm sorry it wasn't more clear, then. No worries.

 

I'm friendly. I make friends. I'm old, though, and perpetually the new girl because we moved every 1-3 years. People already have their networks and communities and "tribes." With church, it's just an extended family everywhere you go. The idea of going clubbing at my age makes me guffaw, really.

 

I'm tired and PMS-y today. Tomorrow I'll be fine and all will be well again. Mostly I was just feeling sorry for myself, which is actually pretty dumb. I'm just feeling keenly, like Max the King of All Wild Things, the need to jump in the boat and sail in and out of weeks and through a day and go where they love me best of all. At least my supper is usually hot in the lonely place.

 

(Pitiful. Pathetic, even. Ignore at will.)

[Night Elf]

I question truth because of the thoughts I have from watching other people with the same set of beliefs. Oh my, this is hard to explain. I had a firm belief for the longest time but I hear one thing preached, see another practiced, read another thing on my own from the Bible, etc. Things can be interpreted in different ways and if Person A is so adamant that Truth is one thing while Person B is just as adamant that Truth is something else, then I can't help but wonder who is right, who is wrong, or if there is no Truth at all. It would be much easier to believe in one thing done one way. But I find it very difficult to believe when there are so many different versions of Truth around. What I'm left with is the feeling that the original Truth has been so distorted over time that it's unrecognizable. I'm literally afraid to believe for fear that I'm believing more in man than in God.

 

Hope that helps.

[amyinva]

Aww, Pam.. We love you. Move back to Cville. :)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

That would work. ;)

 

And I do feel loved. I'm just having a bad day.

[Melinda in VT]

Add me onto the Pam, Anj, and Mekanamom list.:D

 

I've participated in Internet boards for people who have left my particular religion, and quite a few of us talk about feeling like we need classes in how to get along socially in the real world. It's interesting to note that it's not unique to our denomination.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

And I can relate to both Pam and Anj...

(Or because I was too lazy to follow the teachings and wanted to sin. LOL, that's assumption #2.)

 

Ha! I *know* there's a lot of "I wonder what Pam's sin was" speculation. It's pretty funny.

 

Yeah, sure, I just wanted to go wallow in mire and self-destruct. That was it. :D

[GothicGyrl]

Pam, if you lived here, we'd be friends. It's that simple. I'm actually better friends with people older than me, than I am with some my age. Almost all of my club friends are older. :) Feel pms-y and worn out- you are allowed to feel that way any time you (or anyone else wants), it's what helps us live. :)

 

And to be honest, I question everything. Nightelf brought up that she questioned the truth of it. So do I. A man in a whale? 968 years old? Umm, if you didn't want them taking fruit from that forbidden tree, why was it there in the first place and why lable it "tree of knowledge" if we were never meant to have any?

 

I honestly do resepect others belief systems and I usually don't engage in any discussion of said systems, unless I am provoked into doing so. And that respect is a two way street, if you want me to respect your faith, please respect my non-faith. It doesn't work that way all the time, which is why, I suspect, some feel those of us who have "fallen" are bitter and angry, when we truly are not.

 

And contrary to popular belief (in general, not here) I DO have morals, I DO have beliefs, I DO follow a set of "rules". I just don't do those things based on what someone tells me they should be. I follow man's laws, I listen to my elders and I have respect. Most of us like me, do. Just because we don't have "faith" like you do, doesn't mean we lack morals, rules, beliefs, or anything else.

[PixieKris]

I am there with the "I just didn't believe the teachings were true." We still go to the same church (sometimes) still visit our friends churches, still skip church at the same frequency as we did before I grew away from the teachings. We're still teaching our daughter to question everything, and though you might not agree with someone's belief, we can all still learn from each other. Sometimes you learn things you want to imitate, and sometimes you learn things you do not, but a deep and empathetic understanding of humanity is vital. We teach that we all have beliefs, and spirituality is part of the human condition, defined differently by different people. (And, the actual defintion is a challenge... assuming you have the same definition as another is not an assumption that should be made lightly.)

 

We were fortunate. When I was growing up, my social world was our chuch. My daughters social world is her homeschool community. We were very lucky (blessed :) ) to find a homeschool community with such diversity and vitality. I realize that communities such as ours do not exist everywhere, and finding and making friends with similar values can be a challenge. SolaMichella - I greatly enjoyed reading this thread, (studying spirituality is a hobby and love of mine) and have enjoyed reading all of the responses. Thank you for your bravery in posting. :)

[Free Indeed]

I just wanted to say that b/c I don't choose my friends based on religion. There are so many Christians I simply would not choose to be my closest friends. And, there are an equal number of non-Christians that I consider some of my best friends. Gothic Gyrl, I've been blessed by so many of your posts and by everyone else who has posted. Honestly, until now, I didn't know where many of you stood on religious matters. I am a Christian, a young earth Creationist, a conservative republican, etc. BUT, I am a woman, a mother, a wife, a homeschooler, a friend, etc. just like all of you (unless you are a guy and then not, LOL!). A Christian cannot "convert" someone else to a belief in Christ w/out the power of the Holy Spirit. AND, a Christian cannot convert someone else to a belief in Christ by judging, coming down on how they dress, how they talk, how they act, what they watch on TV or listen to on the radio, how they raise their kids, whether they smoke, drink, curse or whatever. Jesus didn't do that! He LOVED! EVERYBODY! He didn't judge! He never looked down His perfect nose on anyone and thought, "what a scum.". This is getting long, but really, I just wanted to say that there are Christians who think it their job to single-handedly "change the world". It's sad. When we point a finger, there are 3 more pointing back at us. Jesus said that we can't see clearly enough to "take the speck out of somebody else's eye" until we can "take the PLANK out of our own (my wording). I am too imperfect, too broken, too much a sinner, etc. to judge anyone else. My heart is for ALL to come to Christ, it is true,...but I realize my job is only to LOVE...not to be judge and jury. That's God's job. You ALL are such amazing people. I LOVE the diversity on this board and learn something new every day. I've been so blessed by so many encouraging words when I felt like just throwing in the towel. I'm not trying to put an end to this post...it is very interesting. Just know that I love you all and appreciate you all regardless of your religious choice. If I have come across wrong...forgive me.

 

I very much agree with this post. I teach my children that we are to love others- all people- but that does not mean we agree with all their choices just as they do not believe in all of ours. That said there was a very interesting article written by Michael Pearl that if you have time to read and comment on as unbelievers (or believers :D )I would love to hear your thoughts- on this article not on their child rearing beliefs which I know is a hot topic (said with a big smile). It is here: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/topics/bible-teaching/article-display/archive////learning-from-the-atheists/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPID%5D=3

[mcconnellboys]

I think people often get hurt, and sometimes by their church community, and so they withdraw from that. I think perhaps if that sort of thing happens to them more than once, they may just withdraw into themselves and decide that they won't try any more. I don't even necessarily think that they become so embittered that they actually don't believe in God anymore, I think they may just label themselves as "not" Christian because they are not in community with other Christians in an organized group of some sort - and some folks think that in order to *be* Christian, that is a necessity.

 

I think Barna's book, "Revolution", is making some rethink what it means to be a Christian and "in community" (through his reporting of a phenomena already in progress), but I think maybe the process of change will be slow and drawn out for a while before it gains enough momentum for folks to truly see it happening around them. Maybe as folks begin to be able to redefine for themselves what it means for them to "be Christian", some who now label themselves as "not" will again be able to label themselves as "back in the fold"....

 

Conversely, I also know people who have never in their lives really been in community and who have always considered themselves staunchly Christian. They don't feel that they require any form of organized religion whatsoever in order to fit within that description. I'm not entirely certain they are correct, either, but a lot of how we choose to label ourselves depends on our own understanding of the world - and, hey, perception is everything....

 

Regena

[Diana in OR]

I question truth because of the thoughts I have from watching other people with the same set of beliefs.... What I'm left with is the feeling that the original Truth has been so distorted over time that it's unrecognizable. I'm literally afraid to believe for fear that I'm believing more in man than in God.

 

 

You have to hold actions up against Scripture. That's the only way. It took me years to delineate my lifestyle with my Christianity. It's very freeing. I know a lot of people who do/don't do certain things because of their Christian beliefs. That's their choice. But, for example, if someone tells me they don't (insert vice here) because Christians aren't supposed to, I can simply say, "Show me that in the Bible, please." If it's in the Bible, great, and I should be behaving accordingly myself. If it's not in the Bible, then it's a choice. Period.

[Kelli in TN]

think Barna's book, "Revolution", is making some rethink what it means to be a Christian and "in community" (through his reporting of a phenomena already in progress), but I think maybe the process of change will be slow and drawn out for a while before it gains enough momentum for folks to truly see it happening around them.

Regena

 

Could you tell me about this book?

[PiCO]

 

Personally, I miss being aligned with other Christians. They were my tribe. I don't have a tribe anymore. And it's lonely. I haven't one good clue as to how someone finds a network of IRL friends outside a church. It perplexes me how to navigate society.

 

I know what you mean. When I was young and single, I joined a liberal church singles group to meet men who weren't after "one thing" (or at least didn't assume I was.) I did end up being introduced to my dh by a woman I met at church, so that worked out very well even though I was raised an atheist (and dh was atheist as well.)

 

-Still Searching for my Tribe

[PariSarah]

Sure, if you met Pam and developed a close and abiding friendship with her, you would treat her with respect regardless of her belief or non-belief in God.

 

But her problem is, I think, how does one meet and develop close and abiding friendships with people when one major--before this century, really the major--avenue for doing that has been blocked?

 

The two primary forums (fora?) in which people develop close friendships are work/school and religious congregation. It's not just that they meet people there, but that what they do together there gives them something to talk about, to be friends over. Pam has a non-traditional status both at school and at her place of worship. So she doesn't have that automatic connection that is the usual beginning place of close friendships.

 

I am one of those people with a strong belief in the sacred worth of all human beings, with a strong commitment to being in communion with people who are different than me. Even with that strong commitment, guess what? Most of my good friends either go to my church or to my school. It's not because I'm a bigoted jerk. It's because that's how life . . . I don't know, pushes you? Guides you? That's how you form the bonds that are necessary for friendship, and it's difficult to form real friendships in other ways.

 

I think that's Pam's point, GG. Not that people don't like her because she's not religious.

[PariSarah]

Good to "see" you!

 

I don't know if you've been here for awhile and I've just missed you, but you were on my "I wonder where _____ is" list.

[Scarlett]

A few thoughts, all of which are not related to OP's question/comment.

 

My experience and observation tells me that humans have an overwhelming need to belong. Everyone wants a tribe. Well, I'm sure not everyone, but usually they have issues if they just want to be alone all the time.

 

I think we were created to belong to a tribe. That is not to say we should all like pink, long hair, brussel sprouts, and good shoes. But basically, we all just want to fit in. I know *I* feel the best when I am with the group of people who believe most of what I believe about everything...not just religion....but everything.

 

I've observed though, that in the absence of religion, people create some sort of other tribe. I've been amused to watch this play out with Biker types when I've gone to watch my BIL play in his band at such functions. I feel as if I am watching from afar at those events because I have Absolutely Nothing in common with Anyone there. Yet, I can see the warm feeling (ok, maybe that is the rum they are drinking) they all feel toward each other because they are in the same club--so to speak.

 

So I would say to people (myself included) to seperate out the need for a tribe from searching for religious/Biblical/Godly Truth. I've asked myself before, 'If everyone I love was suddenly dead, would I still be worshipping this way?' Because what other people do or say or believe cannot determine what Truth is.

[PiCO]

Good to "see" you!

 

I don't know if you've been here for awhile and I've just missed you, but you were on my "I wonder where _____ is" list.

 

 

Well, thanks for saying "hi!"

 

I'm still getting used to the new forum format:confused:, but I'm still here.

[j.griff]

I think you need to figure out what your interests are, and pursue them- then you will meet people with similar interests. Do you quilt? Get on yahoo groups and look for a quilting group in your area, or just join a big one and see if there's anyone on there that's from your area, look on google and see if there are any quilting classes- even though you may already know how to do it, you could go for social reasons and help others there (if you have the time and the funds, and you NEED to make the time and funds for SOMETHING for yourself a priority) and just share the joy of the hobby with the people there (this includes the teachers/instructors). Whatever you like to do, or want to do, just go out and do it. Don't dismiss others because they don't agree with you on everything, people with differing opinions can be the most wonderful friends. If you don't want to hang out at a bar, hang out at a coffee house or something, go to a bookstore where they have "entertainment" (Our Borders has local performers on the weekends, and they have board games set up all the time where people can come in and play against each other and enjoy a cup of coffee). Start your own group (I know it can be hard to get one up and running, but it's worth a try isn't it?) if there's not any group that interests you in your area. :D

To meet people at church, you have to GO to church, and you have to TALK to people there ;)

It's the same concept for meeting people any where else.

[Jenny in Atl]

A few thoughts, all of which are not related to OP's question/comment.

 

My experience and observation tells me that humans have an overwhelming need to belong. Everyone wants a tribe. Well, I'm sure not everyone, but usually they have issues if they just want to be alone all the time.

 

I think we were created to belong to a tribe. That is not to say we should all like pink, long hair, brussel sprouts, and good shoes. But basically, we all just want to fit in. I know *I* feel the best when I am with the group of people who believe most of what I believe about everything...not just religion....but everything.

 

I've observed though, that in the absence of religion, people create some sort of other tribe. I've been amused to watch this play out with Biker types when I've gone to watch my BIL play in his band at such functions. I feel as if I am watching from afar at those events because I have Absolutely Nothing in common with Anyone there. Yet, I can see the warm feeling (ok, maybe that is the rum they are drinking) they all feel toward each other because they are in the same club--so to speak.

 

So I would say to people (myself included) to seperate out the need for a tribe from searching for religious/Biblical/Godly Truth. I've asked myself before, 'If everyone I love was suddenly dead, would I still be worshipping this way?' Because what other people do or say or believe cannot determine what Truth is.

 

Ditto, much better said that I could have.

[*anj*]

Sure, if you met Pam and developed a close and abiding friendship with her, you would treat her with respect regardless of her belief or non-belief in God.

 

I think that's Pam's point, GG. Not that people don't like her because she's not religious.

 

Very well said, Sarah.

And I highlighted those parts above because I think that Pam is a perfect case in point. Pam is a great person. She is a great board-mate and I've actually had the pleasure of meeting her in person and she is just as warm and funny and smart in person as she is on the board. And she's not a Christian. And I am. And, so what?

 

And as Sarah said above, in a situation like Pam's it's hard because she is non-traditional both at school and at the church that she attends. It's kind of like if you are the first one in your crowd of IRL friends to get married and have kids and you find that you don't click as well with your friends because your priorities and interests have changed. Also, you just don't have the same amount of time to devote to nurturing the relationships as you once did.

 

I've often thought that if my husband died I'd probably just stay single because I would have no idea how to go about meeting someone else.

[mcconnellboys]

George Barna is a writer of seminal Christian works from way back. He's been a pollster for years. He's been doing research on how the face of Christianity is changing and he's found that, in fact, Christianity is changing down to its very core. His book, Revolution, is a short, easy read.

 

In it, he talks about how some are embracing the idea of *being* the church, rather than just attending church, and are actually leaving organized religion behind, or combining services offered from multiple churches, rather than being "members" of only a single denomination. He talks about how this will change the face of Christianity completely within the next few decades if the trend continues.

 

Some churches have actually begun offering group studies of this book (trying to skip the parts they don't like, I suppose), rather like they did with Purpose Driven Life, etc. I guess they think the best offense is a good defense, I don't know....

 

Very interesting read. I recommend it,

 

Regena

[Night Elf]

You have to hold actions up against Scripture. That's the only way. It took me years to delineate my lifestyle with my Christianity. It's very freeing. I know a lot of people who do/don't do certain things because of their Christian beliefs. That's their choice. But, for example, if someone tells me they don't (insert vice here) because Christians aren't supposed to, I can simply say, "Show me that in the Bible, please." If it's in the Bible, great, and I should be behaving accordingly myself. If it's not in the Bible, then it's a choice. Period.

 

Except it's also hard to believe in the Bible itself. Even different denominations disagree. I grew up Catholic thinking The Bible was The Bible the same all around the world. Except then I started going to a Baptist church with my aunt and I learned that The Bible didn't include some of the Books that my Catholic Bible had. Later I learned that the King James Version was authorized by King James in the early 1600s, meaning there was another version of the Bible before that. I now think of the Bible as a work of man about God. I just don't believe it is the true word from God. I really believe that it might have been something True at one time but it's been so distorted by man (probably for reasons that relate to power and authority) that it's lost it's Godliness. Then of course there are all the different stories of creation and of a flood in so many different cultures. I used to believe that they were all adopted from THE TRUTH, except then I learned (where I don't remember) that some of these stories predated the Bible!

 

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions. And I honestly believe, yes I'll admit this aloud, that if I believe in the Bible then I'm allowing someone to influence me away from God. I really don't have a religious label at all. I do pray and talk to God all the time and I believe I am guided by Him in some way that is only known to Him. But I do not go through anything physical, whether man or book, to get to God. If that makes sense.

[Amy in NH]

Yes! Yes!

 

I completely agree. :D

[melissel]

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions. And I honestly believe, yes I'll admit this aloud, that if I believe in the Bible then I'm allowing someone to influence me away from God. I really don't have a religious label at all. I do pray and talk to God all the time and I believe I am guided by Him in some way that is only known to Him. But I do not go through anything physical, whether man or book, to get to God. If that makes sense.

 

Oh Beth. I've never heard anyone else sum up exactly how I feel about this, but that's what you just did. I've been doing a lot of soul searching about this recently, and what you just said is exactly the place I've come to. Thanks for saying it for me!

 

And this has been a wonderful and thought-provoking thread. Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to share their thoughts.

[GothicGyrl]

I very much agree with this post. I teach my children that we are to love others- all people- but that does not mean we agree with all their choices just as they do not believe in all of ours. That said there was a very interesting article written by Michael Pearl that if you have time to read and comment on as unbelievers (or believers :D )I would love to hear your thoughts- on this article not on their child rearing beliefs which I know is a hot topic (said with a big smile). It is here: http://www.nogreaterjoy.org/topics/bible-teaching/article-display/archive////learning-from-the-atheists/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPID%5D=3

Free Indeed--No offense, but I would never recommend ANYthing by the Pearl's for either Christian or Non-Christian. I won't go in to detail, you can research yourself, but the Pearl's are the last person I'd ever recommend for any kind of advice. It is neither good nor prosperous. And once I got to the part about him equating my beliefs with that of a child molester, he lost me (Pigs in Space). The Pearl's are just not a reference tool that is legit in any way. How's that for an answer?

 

I didn't mean to imply that no one likes Pam because she isn't a Christian, I don't know how that came about. I just said that as a way to cheer her up. I've had and met people on message boards that told me they'd love to be my friend IRL and once they met me (as if my telling them how different I was wasn't enough), they ceased all contact with me due to those differences. They didn't realize "I was telling the truth and that they just didn't expect such difference".

 

So I no longer believe that a son of God, a Saviour, has come to earth. If He had, I believe there wouldn't be so much division now. There are just too many contradictions.

This pretty much sums it up. Too many contradictions, no one can agree on even one thing, everyone fights over these things, too much hypocrisy, etc... It just isn't worth believing in any more.

[Jenny in Atl]

And it's not just the Christian faith that has this... Jews, Buddhist, Muslims, etc all have factions fighting over who has it right.