ITBS test scores came back...math woes

[MusicMama]

Having her tested this year was really important to my husband.  He is incredibly supportive and encouraging, he just wanted to see %'s. No matter what she got, he would still be supportive of our homeschooling journey.  Just wanted to throw that out there.   ;)

Babs is my oldest, my guinea pig.  Overall, Babs did really well.  78% on the complete composite.  But her math computation scores were 25%. This was the timed section of addition and subtraction questions.  :001_unsure: She completed all the questions, but wasn't very accurate.  I encouraged her to go back and review her work because she still had time left.  She saw no need to do so.  :001_rolleyes: (We didn't do any test prep. I hate the idea of taking time off of REAL work to do test prep.  I know having low math scores stems in part from this being her first exposure to standardized testing.)   I KNEW her mathematical comprehension and confidence were low.  She still really relies on the Cuisenaire rods to do all of her math work. She is only 6 (7 next month), a young first grader.  She is only six...I'm repeating that a lot.  

We have been using Miquon; she has completed the Orange book, and half of the Red.  When she gets stumped with the Miquon, I go back and spend time reviewing concepts with Singapore.  So, in first grade we did the second half of Miquon Orange, followed by Singapore Kindergarten B Book, then the first half of the Miquon Red book, followed by most of Singapore 1A.  We also use Education Unboxed games, which she enjoys.  But I'm already seeing her get stressed out by the problems in Singapore 1A.  Sometimes, when I verbally ask her questions like "What is 6+2", she will respond "4".  She will have used the manipulatives and everything.  She just can't remember the difference between + and -.  I calmly remind her that + means putting numbers together so the result is larger, and minus means finding the difference between two numbers and the answer will be smaller. This doesn't happen all the time, but enough to really drive me BATTY.  A question like "What is 10+4" might get the answer "8".  No reason, she just threw the answer out there.  But she loves the game Go to the Dump, and knows all the number combinations for ten, and will tell me things like "8+2=10, and 9 is one more, so 9+2 must be 11"  

I feel confused.  Sometimes, she shows complete ineptitude.  Other times, she shows really creative mathematical thinking.  Is this due to normal immaturity or am I not teaching things clearly? Or is there something I'm missing? At this point, I feel like scrapping everything and starting at the very beginning.  Go back and redo the Miquon Orange book. She would love it. She loves easy math problems. :tongue_smilie:   

[freesia]

Was this the ITBS? If so, and her other scores were fine, I wouldn't worry about it. Especially not at 6. Taking timed tests can definitely be a maturity issue. My best math student (presently doing Geometry as an eighth grader) was in the 30% on the math computation section at 8. He just could not deal with the time issue and would not check his work, either.

 

Just keep on doing what you are doing. It sounds fine.

[Snickerdoodle]

I think you are both doing great.    She is only 6.  She is showing understanding the concepts.   Learning is not always linear.  It's a lot of things to pull together all at once.   

Sometimes, when I verbally ask her questions

 

Does she do better when she sees the problem visually?   When you sit down to work with her, perhaps reading the problem while she looks at a visual representation will help solidify the nomenclature.

 

I feel confused.  Sometimes, she shows complete ineptitude.  Other times, she shows really creative mathematical thinking.

 

Let me let you in on a little secret.    This will never go away and I'm talking about all aspects of life.   Sometimes the kiddos blow you away with their ingenuity.  Other times, you think there is no hope.   LOL

 

In fact, the other day, I had a spectacular senior moment.     It happens. 

[MusicMama]

Thanks, guys.  The encouragement and perspective really help.  I just went to the source (Little Miss Babs) and asked her if she liked her math work.  She made a sour face and firmly shook her head "No". I asked her what she would like instead.  She told me "Easier questions and more games". Well, I can do that.  Let's see if it helps her in the long run!

[RootAnn]

At 6 (not-quite-7), I would have NO problem with what your daughter is showing. Games, reinforcement of concepts (Education Unboxed), lots of work with manipulatives, and talking with the "real math names" will all be helpful in providing that solid base. It is possible that Singapore isn't really her thing - or that you intro'd it too early. 

 

I wouldn't do ITBS testing until 3rd grade, but I understand the wishes of father needing to be met. You might see if he'd be okay with something more like Let's Go Learn Math and Reading assessment. Taking these once a year will give you both a better understanding of what skills she's gained and where she is with these two foundational subjects. They are more helpful, IMO, than traditional standardized testing. (Many schools are moving toward computer 'adapting' tests like this - where the test changes based on how they answer questions.)

 

But, overall, I'd echo what you said, "She is only six."

[Pronghorn]

My daughter was hopeless in math at six and in the year or two after that. I thought she'd never learn her math facts. Now she is twelve and she does fine at math. I believe that you have a maturity issue more than a math issue. Give her time.

[Catherine]

Agreeing that age is probably a big factor here. I also wanted to chime in about math programs. I used singapore for my two oldest, who are math whizzes and did fine with it. Youngest, not so much. At 6, 7, and 8, he hated math very much, to the point of tears. I switched to Rightstart when he was halfway through first grade and clearly not retaining anything, plus, showing some real signs of weakness in basic stuff like numeration.

 

Rightstart is a very conceptual program, and you add in as much drill as you think the student needs. Ds needed A LOT. Waaaay more than my other kids. And frequent cycling back to retain. However, at just 13, we have finished pre-algebra, he totally gets math, and actually admits to liking it now!

 

I'm saying all of this because I think it's important to find a program that allows the child to really, deeply grasp the mathematical concepts. It had never occurred to me that there is a conceptual leap in understanding subtraction, but for some students, there most definitely is. And making that leap is very important to actually deeply understanding the operation.

[Ellie]

She's only six? ONLY SIX? Girl, you're putting way too much thought into this! :chillpill:

[Joker]

She is six! Do not worry!

 

Timed tests were the big reason I decided to home school. My oldest did not do well under pressure at a young age (she was almost failing public school math in 2nd grade). Fast forward to now and we just received her scores for her end of course exam for Algebra I (she just finished public school 8th grade). We received a lovely note from her teacher because she only missed three questions on the entire exam.

 

Keep at it and I bet it will get better as she ages.

[kiana]

I wouldn't be excessively worried about that. Obviously she needs more work and practice, but it will come with time. I'd worry more if she were a middle schooler with that sort of disparity.

[LinRTX]

I will tell you a little of my math journey. I have been schooling a long time. Most of the programs being used here I did not know about when I started 24 years ago.

 

My oldest did Miquon and excelled at it. I was certain it was the absolute best program. (In kindergarten, we did a workbook called one digit addition and subtraction that used the cuisinaire rods).

 

A few years later I started my second child along the same path. She did fine in K and was totally confused by Miquon. At the end of her first grade year she had trouble doing what she had easily done at the end of K. I jumped ship and bought the (new at the time) Saxon grade 2. She thrived. Math has never been her strong point, but she did go on to completer math through calculus and even did well in her calculus classes in college.

 

She was young for her grade also (August birthday). In hindsight I wish I would have kept doing Miquon and added some more straight forward method such as Saxon, Rod and Staff, or just simple workbooks. I panicked, however, when we seemed to be regressing.

 

With my youngest (now starting in high school) we did do a combination of Miquon and Saxon.

 

Your daughter is young. These concepts will come.

 

Hope this helps

Linda

[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  Just to encourage you, standardized test scores aren't even counted by schools until students are at least 3rd grade, and don't really begin to be "meaningful" until about 5th grade.

 

The reasons for this are that the brains of early elementary students typically develop unevenly -- spurt ahead in one area such as reading or math, while the motor "idles" in another area. And, VERY typically, girls develop the math portions of the brain later (about 3rd grade), while developing the language arts areas of the brain much earlier. Typically for boys, it is the reverse -- early math development, later language arts development. (And, of course, there are always lots of exceptions and variations ;) .)

 

Also, young students tend to develop in "spurts" and "plateaus", and standardized test scores aren't designed to reveal meaningful data from that type of development within a single year of schooling. Rather, the testing is meant to compare development (or lack of development) over a number of years. Most students don't really settle down into a steady brain development until grades 4-5, so it's really kind of pointless to test until you can get a reliable baseline in the older elementary grades (unless you just want your child to practice the process of testing). The data from standardized testing is usually most helpful when comparing grades 4-8. (Usually high school students move away from standardized tests toward other types of national testing -- AP, PSAT, SAT, ACT…)

 

Also, you can go through a test booklet with your student in the months in advance of the test (a page or two several times a week), to practice and get familiar with types of questions, the test format, and any test answering tips.

 

 

At this stage, just put any tests away and don't give it another thought. By 3rd-5th grade you will likely see a change in DD's abilities, and settling into more parallel development of math and language arts. At that stage, testing will be more useful.  Enjoy your homeschooling journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm really ornery, so here goes.  First, does the ITBS (which is a very fine, thorough test btw) give you scores for *conceptual* math as well as computation?  A *gap* there is noteworthy.  I'm not quite of the test scores don't matter at this age opinion.  I think they need to be put in context, but they DO show you something, as these are.  My dd, for many years, had a gap between conceptual and computation scores.  (very high conceptual, much, much lower computation, despite lots of work on it)  Turns out there were reasons for that gap, things we later ended up doing evals for.  So the scores I saw at 7 and 8 definitely were showing stuff that was going on.  It's just a matter of putting it in context.

 

I take it some of her other scores were very high?  Given her general discomfort, have you considered a grade adjustment?  It would be one alternative in your situation.  No one mentioned it, so I will.  July b-days are hard.  You're really close to the cut-off, and that's what you're seeing.  I was just talking with a teacher who says she wishes they'd make JUNE the cut-off, across the board, for everyone.  

 

The things she's comfortable with are K5 skills.  If you had tested her as a K5er, she'd be whiz bang right now, right?  Would her percentiles at that point match what you expect compared to who she is as a person?  

 

You could think up other options.  You could tell her to answer the social question of the grade she's in by answering with her age and then say 1st grade for math, 2nd grade for everything else.  Or she could say she's 1 st grade and a half, then in January move up and call her 2nd.  You could tell her the truth, that you'll teach her where she's at in each subject and then when she turns 12 you'll evaluate whether to call her rising 7th or wait another year..

 

Another thing you could do, since testing is important to your dh, is see if you can find someone to administer the WJIII (Woodcock Johnson III).  It has no ceiling, is administered one on one, and gives actual grade levels instead of percentiles.  The test you did gives stanines and percentiles but doesn't actually tell you where she's AT.  If you can get the WJIII, you'll see if her work is at grade level or not.  This will let you make more informed decisions.  Sometimes you can find tutors who administer it for a reasonable fee.

[hellen]

I have a young first grader who will turn 7 next month also. She shows the same moments of ineptness and great math thinking. She scored quite low on math computation because she is really slow. She answered each one correctly but only finished half. We've worked really slowly through math this year because it's taking her extra time to really get it. She just started Singapore 1B. She did part of Miquon Orange when Singapore was getting too hard.

 

My vote is for immaturity as well. I do want to add that slowing down can be a good thing. I have another one in Singapore 4 so I can see where things are going and why. Hindsight has taught me it is worth it to slow down where needed. It can be harder to that with the eldest child.

[vonfirmath]

Ok, I'm really ornery, so here goes.  First, does the ITBS (which is a very fine, thorough test btw) give you scores for *conceptual* math as well as computation?  A *gap* there is noteworthy.  I'm not quite of the test scores don't matter at this age opinion.  I think they need to be put in context, but they DO show you something, as these are.  My dd, for many years, had a gap between conceptual and computation scores.  (very high conceptual, much, much lower computation, despite lots of work on it)  Turns out there were reasons for that gap, things we later ended up doing evals for.  So the scores I saw at 7 and 8 definitely were showing stuff that was going on.  It's just a matter of putting it in context.

 

I take it some of her other scores were very high?  Given her general discomfort, have you considered a grade adjustment?  It would be one alternative in your situation.  No one mentioned it, so I will.  July b-days are hard.  You're really close to the cut-off, and that's what you're seeing.  I was just talking with a teacher who says she wishes they'd make JUNE the cut-off, across the board, for everyone.  

That would have made things much more difficult for my son (An August birthday)

High on Math. High on Reading. (He just started reading The Lion The Witch and the Wardrobe this week. it's slow going but he's past the beavers already and seems to be understanding it) Struggles with Writing and staying on task!

[MusicMama]

Ok, I'm really ornery, so here goes.  First, does the ITBS (which is a very fine, thorough test btw) give you scores for *conceptual* math as well as computation?  A *gap* there is noteworthy.  I'm not quite of the test scores don't matter at this age opinion.  I think they need to be put in context, but they DO show you something, as these are.  My dd, for many years, had a gap between conceptual and computation scores.  (very high conceptual, much, much lower computation, despite lots of work on it)  Turns out there were reasons for that gap, things we later ended up doing evals for.  So the scores I saw at 7 and 8 definitely were showing stuff that was going on.  It's just a matter of putting it in context.

 

I take it some of her other scores were very high?  Given her general discomfort, have you considered a grade adjustment?  It would be one alternative in your situation.  No one mentioned it, so I will.  July b-days are hard.  You're really close to the cut-off, and that's what you're seeing.  I was just talking with a teacher who says she wishes they'd make JUNE the cut-off, across the board, for everyone.  

 

The things she's comfortable with are K5 skills.  If you had tested her as a K5er, she'd be whiz bang right now, right?  Would her percentiles at that point match what you expect compared to who she is as a person?  

 

You could think up other options.  You could tell her to answer the social question of the grade she's in by answering with her age and then say 1st grade for math, 2nd grade for everything else.  Or she could say she's 1 st grade and a half, then in January move up and call her 2nd.  You could tell her the truth, that you'll teach her where she's at in each subject and then when she turns 12 you'll evaluate whether to call her rising 7th or wait another year..

 

Another thing you could do, since testing is important to your dh, is see if you can find someone to administer the WJIII (Woodcock Johnson III).  It has no ceiling, is administered one on one, and gives actual grade levels instead of percentiles.  The test you did gives stanines and percentiles but doesn't actually tell you where she's AT.  If you can get the WJIII, you'll see if her work is at grade level or not.  This will let you make more informed decisions.  Sometimes you can find tutors who administer it for a reasonable fee.

Thanks for being "ornery". :) Your comments really helped!  

 

Yes, there was a large difference between the math problems, math concepts, and math computation section. The math problem score was 75%. Math concepts was 53%. Math computation was 25%. 

 

As far as grade levels, I would just do a first grade math curriculum with her, possibly going back and redoing Miquon Orange, but keeping her progressing to 2nd grade.  Her reading is extremely good.  She just finished Matilda, and has read and reread D'Aulaire's Greek Myths. Her reading total on the ITBS was 93%. Science was 91%, all the other subcatagories were in the 70-80 range. 

 

If you don't mind sharing, what helped close the gap between your dd's math concepts and computation, and what seemed to be the issue? 

[PeterPan]

Teaching Textbooks and time to mature, time for some therapies (vision, etc.) to kick in, etc.  But seriously, TT.  I wouldn't do TT super early.  We didn't even start it till what late 7th?  I'm just saying when we did it pulled everything together.

[Arcadia]

This was the timed section of addition and subtraction questions.  :001_unsure: She completed all the questions, but wasn't very accurate.  I encouraged her to go back and review her work because she still had time left.  She saw no need to do so.

 

 

 

 The math problem score was 75%. Math concepts was 53%. Math computation was 25%. 

 

 

She is very likely not used to a timed test and she may be just bored with the concepts and computation section.   if you have a copy of the test script and her answers, just count how many you think are due to carelessness and how many your child may really forgot how to compute or forgot the concept.

[Doodlebug]

I'm not testing my son until the end of third grade to ensure reliability. Testing at his current developmental stage would most likely yield results reflecting his ability to sit still and focus. I'm pretty clear where we are on that... :D

 

But, your daughter performed so well on other areas of the test that I don't think this is a reliability issue, at least from the angle Im seeing it. It would certainly have me scratching my head.

 

I would put the test away because I would initially take the results way too personally. Something about time, and just letting the issue roll around in my head for a few weeks, usually yields better "big picture" conclusions for me than intense evaluation. And for a six year old, I think thoughtfulness is needed, not an educational overhaul. (Which would be my dramatic tendency). ;)

 

Peace,

Stella

[ktgrok]

Teaching Textbooks and time to mature, time for some therapies (vision, etc.) to kick in, etc.  But seriously, TT.  I wouldn't do TT super early.  We didn't even start it till what late 7th?  I'm just saying when we did it pulled everything together.

 

My son also had the big gap between problem solving and computation. it turned out to be a working memory thing...he just didn't have his facts solidified so it slows him down. He also had issues with reversing signs, etc. Spiral math helped tremendously....TT first, then CLE. For a young kid CLE would be very good, lots of review, lots of drill on facts. The one thing that TT did that CLE won't is that it told him every time he got a problem wrong, right away, so he could fix it right away. That stopped careless mistakes, but if careless mistakes aren't the problem then that wouldn't matter. 

[MrsMe]

Anyone that uses timed tests for a six year old is just plain stupid.

 

Sheesh.  No worries. 

[Tidbits of Learning]

If you are using a conceptual math program then those are going to be high scores.  If you are using a drill and kill math program then computation are going to be high scores.  Over time, no matter which you use it evens out.  Kids that start out drill and kill hit conceptual later in the middle to high school maths.  Kids who start out conceptual/abstract (singapore/miquon/asian style math) will over time memorize the facts without the drill and kill. 

The ITBS is a good test, but the math sections can be hard especially with the time limits.  My ds7 who is finishing 1st grade did not score well on the ITBS on different sections that I thought he was pretty decent at in his in real life work.  We chose to do another test with no test prep.  He took the online CAT and scored so much better.  I am talking went from being in the low stanine to high/advanced stanine.  The format of the online test worked better for him.  1 questions at a time and no bubble sheet to get bored or off track with filling in the bubbles.  

I went from being devastated by his test scores to feeling elated in a matter of a few weeks.  What it taught me was don't base anything on one test.  

[TKDmom]

:grouphug:

 

I got our Stanford test results back recently and nearly had a heart attack! My ds8 got 12th% in math procedures. And I consider him a strong math student. He just gets stuff intuitively. I was totally baffled, but dh was surprisingly supportive and we decided it all came back to test prep (or lack thereof).

[MistyMountain]

.