What else can I do to help dd sleep on a regular sleep schedule?

[Ameena]

DD has always had issues sleeping. Even as a newborn she just didn't sleep enough - she never napped but would sleep from around 9pm til 7am or so. Fastforward to now, she is 7 and gets maybe 6-8 hours a night on a good night. Normally she sleeps from 2-3am until anywhere from 9am to noon. With her waking so late, it means nothing gets done - by the time she wakes up, eats breakfast & we do school the day is pretty much over with. That is with taking melatonin - without it she will stay up all night & just nap a few hours in the morning. She takes 1/4 of a 3mg Melatonin tablet. Prior to using melatonin, we used benedryl at bedtime. We've tried increasing activity - all it did was make her wired & irritated. I've tried cutting out caffeine for her - no effect.

 

Is there anything else I can safely try to get her onto a regular sleep schedule? I'm at my wits end.

[Ellie]

:grouphug:

 

It doesn't help to put her to bed earlier and wake her up earlier? Or to wake her up even when she doesn't actually fall asleep for a long time?

[candicane]

Have you tried slowly pushing back the time she goes to bed and waking her up earlier? Like say one week go to bed at 1am get up at 11am, then 12am get up at 10am, 11pm, get up at 9am and so on.

[Ameena]

:grouphug:

 

It doesn't help to put her to bed earlier and wake her up earlier? Or to wake her up even when she doesn't actually fall asleep for a long time?

 

Not really. Putting her to bed earlier is an exercise in futility. You can put her in bed, but getting her to stay is impossible. She will play possum until she hears me go to bed {thinking she is asleep}, then get up & play all night in her room.

 

Waking her early is sometimes possible if I can catch her when she is less deeply asleep - KWIM? Otherwise it's pretty much impossible as she is a very very deep sleeper once she is asleep. But the times I have managed to wake her early it did not improve her sleep schedule at all - if anything it made it worse. When she gets over-tired, she gets very irritable and wired instead of sleepy.

[Lieutenant Stranger]

When you say more exercise-- what did you do? One of my children has insomnia problems- but not this severe.

[Ameena]

When you say more exercise-- what did you do? One of my children has insomnia problems- but not this severe.

 

Well, on a regular day she gets quite a bit of walking. Not sure exactly how much, but the walk just from our house to the bus is .5 mile each way, and she regularly walks / runs it. She also plays outside a lot, normally running / jumping mostly.

 

I have tried taking her to the park & letting her have a good hour or two of free play in addition to the walking, which for her means lots of climbing on the jungle gym, slides, etc.

 

We have not done any "formal" exercise. I have considered putting her in something like Karate, but she does not do well in a classroom setting & I don't feel she is ready for that maturity-wise.

[prairiewindmomma]

Take her camping for a week. For real. No flashlights at night...

[Lieutenant Stranger]

Things like walking/biking don't really work for my child, unless I make it really strenuous uphill, which really isn't fun for any of us. What has helped is swim team-- lap swimming helped immensely! We had a break in swimming for awhile and I saw it all go downhill so fast-- the inability to fall asleep, staying up until 2am, crying BECAUSE she couldn't fall asleep...I felt so bad for her. 

 

While we still have some stay up late nights (more on the nights when there isn't swim) it has definitely helped. My child never napped either, even as a baby, and would always fight sleep as an infant. (Seriously, a 3-month-old shaking her head back and forth to stay awake!)

[Gentlemommy]

Ugh. I've had my share of sleep issues with my kiddos, so I feel your pain. The lack of good sleep makes mine wired and crazy, and that makes it harder for them to get to sleep, and it's a never ending cycle. My 3 year old was going to bed later and later, and waking up more and more. Posted here about her. On a good night, she was getting 8 ish hours. Of interrupted sleep. For months. It was crazy making. What helped the most was radically switching her bedtime. I didn't even work up to it. I went from fighting with her to get to bed at 10/11 pm, to dosing with melatonin at 7:30. My dd gets .75 mg, which is approximately what your dd is getting....so I'd up her dose for a while. When you give her melatonin, does she fall asleep within 10-15 minutes? Because if not, she can power through it and it will leave her wired. What I've done is put window coverings in her room, and after her melatonin, all lights upstairs go off, everyone whispers, and I move slowly and calmly. I read her are books, massage her in the dark room, and leave quietly. She's out in ten minutes. She is still waking 1-2 times a night, but it's much easier to get her back to sleep.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Vitamin D and melatonin.

 

When my daughter's D was fixed, her body regulated sleep with no effort on our part. She sometimes takes melatonin because she'll get into a book and read beyond her sleep signals.

[Joyofsixreboot]

First off, I had one who didn't sleep.  He eventually needed his adenoids and tonsils out and his sleep problems disappeared.  He evidently had apnea which was keeping his sleep from getting deep.  Just a thought.

Secondly, I'm a firm believer in LOTS of exercise.  Like running that mile 2 or 3 times/day and soccer and free play.  No electronics or tv to amp them up. I also found a couple weeks of our local park day camp (all day sports and swimming) with an early start "reset" their clock. I got the troublesome ones up early whether they slept or not.

Thirdly, none of the above was "punishment" we just couched it as this really fun stuff we're going to do to be healthy.  YMMV

[Amy in NH]

Our pediatrician told us that cognitive-behavioral therapy is the most effective means of treating insomnia in the long-term.  There are sleeping meds out there that you can try until you find one that works (most often people will try one and give up if it doesn't work), but research has shown that CBT and mindfulness therapy are better than the best medication.

[Pippen]

Have you had a sleep study done?  Sometimes there are issues such as Restless Leg Syndrome or mild seizure activity that disrupt sleep cycles, and that most kids aren't able to describe.

[Tohru]

NM

[gardenmom5]

I'll be she's terribly overtired.

 

start with a bedtime routine an hour before you want her to go to sleep (at least eight hours before you want her up).  and things need to be calm.  the routine is imperitive as it will help get her adjusted that it's time to start shutting things down.  don't allow computer or tv in the evening.  they stimulate the brain.  she's probably overstimulated at this point.

because she is so used to going to be so late, start with a bath first

a snack, a drink

story (I would do this IN her bed - with no other siblings around. no music, etc. quiet.)

some snuggle,

then leave and turn off the lights.

do not allow her out of her room.  (one bathroom trip.)

 

 

in the morning - wake her up when you want her to get up.  help her body get on the schedule it needs to be. 

 

I rarely have to wake-up dudeling anymore because he wakes by himself after a good night's sleep.   some kids do not produce enough melatonin, and that can make a huge difference in how they feel and sleep.  (start with 1/2 mg.)  dudeling wouldn't ever take supplements, medicine, etc.  he ASKED for melatonin the second night. (learned to swallow pills at six) and he reminded me if I didn't automatically give it to him.  he went from sleeping no more (and frequently less) than eight hours to sleeping 11 hours.  huge difference in how he functioned too.  he rarely takes it anymore.

 

 

 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Have you had a sleep study done? Sometimes there are issues such as Restless Leg Syndrome or mild seizure activity that disrupt sleep cycles, and that most kids aren't able to describe.

Agreed.

 

I forgot to mention in my post that both of mine have had studies and I know for sure what I'm working with medically.

[indigomama]

My son was diagnosed with severe insomnia at age 6. All the dr told us was to give him benadryl before he went to sleep and everytime he woke up. It took us two months to reset his clock and lots of Benadryl. 

 

We also, made sure he was getting lots of exercise during the day, we upped his vitamins and supplements, and paid very close attention to his food (making sure it was a balance of fats,carbs, protein, and limited sugar or caffeine.

 

We would also spend a good portion of before bedtime going over his day, his worries (his insomnia was largely due to his anxieties), just basically emptying his mind, so that he could rest his brain and body. 

[Tiramisu]

I had horrid sleepers, so I sympathize. If by age 7 a child is still having such difficulties despite your best efforts. I would talk to your pediatrician. Get bloodwork to check vitamin d levels, thyroid, a full workup really. Then I'd get a sleep study. And, very gently, maybe a psychological evaluation with someone with a very good reputation if none of the medical stuff is useful. There are developmental and mental health issues that cause people to have difficulty sleeping. Covering all those bases should yield some helpful information. 

 

I had a friend with a four or five year old who hardly slept. No one would believe her about how bad it was. Then the father got cancer and friends came in to help her, staying overnight, and they saw the reality and became very sympathetic. There are medical, developmental, and mental health issues in the family history.

[prairiewindmomma]

I forgot to add earlier--the reason I mention camping is a sleep study done by University of Colorado, Boulder? in which they measured sleep times and melatonin levels after a week without artificial light (camping). Whether you were naturally a nocturnal beast or an early riser, everyone slept more and had healthier melatonin levels after a week without artificial light.

 

We have had more than our fair share of sleep issues here.  We've given melatonin supplements here, but the neuro-oncologist who worked with us said that we should limit the use of supplements to less than 6 weeks as the body can then start to suppress what little generation it was providing.  We ended up weaning off beforehand as melatonin caused crazy nightmares here.  For my other three kids--vitamin D, fish oil, exercise, and magnesium have helped...but keeping wake times the same, heavy exercise, and a nighttime ritual have also been key.  We go camping to get things kick-started and to re-set as needed. 

 

Now that my oldest is well into the throws of puberty, he is sleeping all of the time. As a baby, he didn't nap at all, and rarely got more than 5 hours of sleep a night. My kids all are naturally not morning people, but they do get normal amounts of sleep at night, once they settle in.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I forgot to add earlier--the reason I mention camping is a sleep study done by University of Colorado, Boulder? in which they measured sleep times and melatonin levels after a week without artificial light (camping). Whether you were naturally a nocturnal beast or an early riser, everyone slept more and had healthier melatonin levels after a week without artificial light.

 

We have had more than our fair share of sleep issues here.  We've given melatonin supplements here, but the neuro-oncologist who worked with us said that we should limit the use of supplements to less than 6 weeks as the body can then start to suppress what little generation it was providing.  We ended up weaning off beforehand as melatonin caused crazy nightmares here.  For my other three kids--vitamin D, fish oil, exercise, and magnesium have helped...but keeping wake times the same, heavy exercise, and a nighttime ritual have also been key.  We go camping to get things kick-started and to re-set as needed. 

 

Now that my oldest is well into the throws of puberty, he is sleeping all of the time. As a baby, he didn't nap at all, and rarely got more than 5 hours of sleep a night. My kids all are naturally not morning people, but they do get normal amounts of sleep at night, once they settle in.

This study is our rationale for the very limited screen time/light stuff when ours get out of whack.  Going camping would be easier because it's just not there.

[Pronghorn]

How dark is the child's bedroom? I had severe insomnia for years and thought I simply had lost the capacity to sleep without meds. Then Superstorm Sandy knocked out all the electric and I found that I am capable of natural sleep under the right light conditions. I now use a sleep mask and a nightlight that has lower levels of blue light. And I wear blue light filtering glasses for two hours before bedtime. Reading before bed helps too. One place to get products to help is lowbluelights.com. I have no stake in the company, but its products are what enabled me to go off sleep meds. Now I have occasional insomnia. Before I had it every single night.

[sheryl]

ok, I read only the first 2 replies and they are right on.  

 

as a sleep patient, I would recommend (even for a 7 yo):

 

1.  remove napping except for extreme, strenuous activity (hiking)

2.  slowly go to bed earlier and wake up earlier...."wean" her into this cycle.  it will NOT happen overnight, but maybe take several weeks/months to FULLY gain the benefit.

3.  remove ALL caffeine sources (dark and some blonde pops, chocolate, iced tea, etc)

4.  make sure she gets appropriate activity.  too much before bedtime is a big no-no. ....it always works as a stimulant.

5.  considering 4 above, they say early morning sun helps in the sleep process. 

6.  warm milk

7.  warm bath/shower before bedtime and NO stimulation afterwards

8.  imo, she should not have electronic games, etc after her bath

9.  after her shower/bath, play a game of cards (tv would not be good here), soft music, talk, let her read and/or write in a journal, draw a picture.  what you are doing is trying to accomplish a "transition".

10. they sleep people say "routine" is important.  be ready and get in bed at the SAME TIME EVERY NIGHT. 

 

I would start now or as soon as you can this summer while she is on break.  I'd wake her at the time you feel she should wake and STICK TO IT.  Do not let her nap and be ready for several weeks to keep her awake during the day.  Back time when you want her to go to sleep to allow time for bath and transition activities.

 

Also, it truly sounds like she needs a sleep study.  She may have sleep apnea or some other untreated issue. 

 

Melatonin is fine and even 1-3 mg. would be fine based on my sleep doctor and dd's neurologist.

 

 

HTH!

[Kevin'sMom]

I have had more than 150 foster children since 2005, and they almost always come with sleep issues, but they never leave with them. Everyone under 12 goes to bed at 8PM (big shock to some of them---the ones who stayed up half the night). Everyone over 12 goes to bed at 9PM. This includes weekends, because getting off a sleep schedule two days a week is not helpful with this issue). There are just no exceptions to this rule. It takes a couple of weeks, sometimes more, to adjust to this, but it works. I do let them have the radio on, if they must. That is all I do, and it works. Well, not quite all. I start winding things down an hour before (no TV, which is overstimulating just before bed), and no one gets a bedtime snack with sugar in any form. Also, I NEVER, repeat NEVER let kids have any drink with caffeine. It stays with them a very long time, and is a big enemy of proper sleep. (I feel like the Great Oz, who has spoken. Sorry :)

[KidsHappen]

I have chronic, severe insomnia and have had it for 10 years now. I was an awesome sleeper for the first 40 or so years of my life. I could fall asleep at the drop of a hat and enjoy a deep, uninterrupted 10 hours of sleep and sometime take 2-3 hour naps as well. My first two children took after me and were excellent sleepers as well. I had absolutely no understanding of sleep problems.

 

Two of the last four had severe sleep issues. I am ashamed to admit that I probably did not handle it in a way that was best for them.  

 

Then about 10 years ago I developed sleeping problems. I have tried everything and nothing works consistently but I can tell you what doesn't work for me or my kids and a few things that I have found that helps. 

 

Spending hours in bed when you are not sleeping actually makes things worse. It causes physical pain from laying for so long when your muscles are not relaxed. It is frustrating and makes bed an unpleasant experience which causes a rise in stress hormones which makes going to sleep even harder.  

 

I have also found no success in adjusting bedtimes for either my children or myself. I believe that circadian rhythms are hard wired and not easily adjustable. I get most of my sleep between 2:00 AM and 12:00 PM.

 

Melatonin causes nightmares here. Bendryl only works when taken intermittently. Sleepiness is a side effect that wears off over time when taken on a regular basis. If you take it regularly for allergies it probably won't be that effective for sleep. 

 

One of my girls used to take regular release Adderall in the morning and she had difficulty falling asleep at night. The sleep problems predated the Adderall and the med didn't seem to make any difference but then they changed her to ER Adderall and she suddenly started having an easier time falling asleep.

 

Both of the girls that have trouble sleeping can not fall asleep without a tv on. The doctor's theory on this is that they need to keep their mind busy and distracted in order to fall asleep. So they watch they watch low excitement shows that they have seen a hundred time before to lull them to sleep. 

 

I don't get in bed until I am pretty sure that I will fall asleep. They say that you shouldn't have any lights in your room but I have to have a clock in my room so that I am aware of what little sleep I do get. So if I look at the clock a 2:00 and then again at 4:00 and I realize that I wasn't aware of anything between those two times then I can surmise that I probably at least dozed off for awhile. Whereas, if I don't have a clock then I would just assume that the awake periods were evenly spaced and that I didn't get any sleep. The awareness of how much sleep that you are actually getting does have an effect on how you feel. 

 

Finally, is it possible that she is just a short sleeper and only needs 5-6 hours of sleep? My husband and MIL are like that. 

[freesia]

I, too, would say no caffeine at all.

 

Also, don't try to put her to bed early right away, slowly move the bed time earlier--10 or 15 minutes as mentioned by a pp. At the same time wake her up 15 minutes earlier. This will take a while. I don't know how long you've tried before, but give it time.

 

Tell her if she wakes up, she may read in bed but not play. I read once that reading for 10 minutes if you wake up can help, and that is definitely true for me.

 

I agree with block out shades, but open them when you get up.

 

Try no screen time at all for a while and then see if there is a time after which it effects her.

 

Regular routine every day.

 

She sounds over tired and wired--that makes it harder to sleep.

[KungFuPanda]

If you can't give up screens entirely, I'd definitely eliminate them after dinner.

[kroe1]

What is wrong with not sleeping if one doesn't need it? After one practices decent sleep hygiene and still doesn't sleep well, then so be it. Make sure her room and activities are safe, then let her body tell her when she needs sleep.

 

I hate giving meds to children, melatonin included. It interferes with the body's own feedback loop so that less is produced by the body naturally. Melatonin also does not work if there is any light hitting the eyes.

 

Bottom line, if one enters the bed, it is dark, and there is no external stimulation, yet sleep does not occur, then get up and try again later.

 

We are a family of shift workers who are insomniacs. We have dark rooms, good blinds on the windows, stay away from caffeine (sort of), no external stimulation before attempted sleep, etc. We are all lucky to get 4 or 5 hours within a 24 hour period. No one stresses about it. It is what it is. When DD was born and only took a one hour nap a day along with the inability to sleep through the night before age 5, I knew she would fit into our family just fine. She is now 13 and does well on 4 to 6 hours of sleep a day.

[kiwik]

Some people don't need much sleep it is TRUE but a lot of people don't get as much sleep.as they need. It is a problem for the op because the child is working on a completely different schedule to the rest of the family. Unfortunately I don't have an answer but I do agree that you may have to start waking her (if you wait she will come up enough to be woken at some point). She may simply have gotten into a habit that can be reset. We aren't born with a sleep at night, wake in day habit. I have one who would like to sleep midnight until midday but work and school start at 9 am.