Help me define and heal from this church experience

[JenniferB]

I'm looking for input from folks who have had extensive experience and participation in a church which welcomed, encouraged, or pressured/pushed cult-like influences in their programming or para-church activities, lifestyles, book choices & studies, group-think conferences, counseling techniques, etc.

 

Having left a situation like this just over 2 years ago, I'm becoming more clear of mind that the programs and influences which were welcomed and used in this church had undue influence on me. Though I'm not ready to call these influences cults, they are cult-like and the after effects feel similar to leaving a cult. They employ the same techniques that real cults use to establish and solidify group-think. A good deal of my childhood and teenage years were spent in a cult and when I left it felt similar to how I've felt over the last two years. Somehow though this feels harder and a more damaging experience to heal from. I have many friends in this environment. Some have delved into these influences, as I did, and have integrated the cult-like teachings into their homes. Some are less likely to take these influences to heart. The tricky thing for me and the thing that makes this really hard to work through is that it's not "a cult" cut and dry. All the influences that I find now to be cult-like were "optional" to church member participation. The unspoken group-think is almost universal in the church, but it's not something black and white that you can say, "ah-ha, that's unbiblical!"

 

Where I'm at now is in a stage of healing and sorting these things out. I am banished and shunned by many from that church, but not all. I don't get invited much to social activities from those who didn't shun me. The social invites I send out are often ignored by them or declined, but not so obviously that I can say with confidence, "they have shunned me." It's so darn slippery and tricky and subtle that I have had a difficult 2 years trying to find a new normal.

 

I'm hopeful that this next school year will lead me and our whole family to more normalcy. I'm anticipating involvement in a new co-op, secular, so that it will be safer feeling for me. I'm looking forward to making new friends for the kids and I. So, things are looking up.

 

If there are resources for dealing with exits from cult-like situations or a blog or something written by someone dealing with an exit from a regular church where the shunning and group think mentality was so cunning and tricky you can't even put your finger on it, please advise. Or if it's ok with the moderators, we can exchange and chit chat about experiences here on TWTMF, if anyone else finds themselves in a similar place. There's a lot to my personal story that I may share if it seems appropriate as to why I'm in a healing stage, but for now I will just see if anyone else has had a similar experience and if this conversation / thread goes anywhere.

 

BTW - I have no desire to shame or bash or gossip about my former church. My experience with everyone before I started questioning the beliefs was positive and everyone is no doubt sincere in following these teachers, who seem cult-like to me. I don't think any of my former congregants, well most, have a mean bone in their bodies. There were many hurtful things that happened to us, but I want to make it clear that I don't think it was done, for the most part of them, on purpose. I fault these controlling influences more than anything and the idealism that somehow replaced common courtesy.

[Liz CA]

A book by Stephen Arterburn may help sort things out: "Toxic Faith." Arterburn is definitely Christian. He outlines what is toxic and what the myths are.

[sunflowerlady]

There is also a book called "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". I highly recommend it.

 

I'll get back to the thread when I have more time

[JenniferB]

I know I said I wanted book recommendations, but after reading the book descriptions I'm feeling jittery and untrusting toward these authors. I have a probably illogical feeling that they want to control me and pressure me to think like them. I didn't expect this reaction to reading book descriptions. So, I'm altering my request. I don't want to tackle this by reading a book. Talking/typing it out, sharing, caring, etc. is more comfortable to me. Please excuse my waffling.

[Starr]

Since you were raised in a cult maybe you are initially drawn to similar groups without realizing it.  I wouldn't know where to begin but you might want some professional help in continuing to recognize these situations. I would think a clean break and fresh start would be helpful.  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[scholarly]

This is a timely post for me and I hope you get some good information. I have been struggling with feeling that the movement of which my church is a part is problematic. I, too, an not ready to label it a cult, but I really feel there is undue pressure about things that make me uncomfortable. I'm not sure what I want to do about it and am hoping the responses to your post will help me as well. At any rate, you are not alone.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I have no advice but I have a lot of empathy for you.  We had issues with a church in which we were quite involved. We left four years ago. For the most part, we were shunned.  We've bounced from church to church since, a year here, a year there.  I still have strong feelings for "our" old church, although I know we could never, would never, go back.  My husband doesn't know what it will take for him to ever really trust a church again. 

 

It was painful. It is painful.  I know we did the absolutely right thing, yet I still am protective of our old church family.

 

I can only look to the positive, that my kids haven't been poisoned by outside influences  that would have compromised their faith.  And when it gets down to it, THAT is the most important thing, and I can live with the choices we've made.  It's very lonely. It's just very lonely.  I really miss that closeness.

 

:crying:

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[Cricket]

I don't have any advice to give but :grouphug: .  My parents and grandparents spent years under a very controlling ministry.  (Doesn't help when the head of that ministry is your father/grandfather.)  They left it behind about 45 years ago and my dad still receives contact from people trying to recover from that ministry.  It is a long process.  Honestly, what helped my father and grandfather move on was studying the Scriptures for themselves and reading serious theology books (for them it was mostly Puritan writers--probably not helpful to you as Orthodox!), not books about spiritual abuse.  They also had each other which was huge.

[Rosie_0801]

:grouphug:

 

Kudos to you for recognising and acknowledging your discomfort. Trust in yourself is something to cultivate. :)

[kbutton]

The unspoken group-think is almost universal in the church, but it's not something black and white that you can say, "ah-ha, that's unbiblical!"

 

There were many hurtful things that happened to us, but I want to make it clear that I don't think it was done, for the most part of them, on purpose. I fault these controlling influences more than anything and the idealism that somehow replaced common courtesy.

 

:grouphug:

 

I would never say my old church is a cult, but it felt exactly the way you are describing. It's taken two years to feel better about the whole experience, and I still have moments when I have a 180 degree different experience in my new church and think, "gee, if they could see this, would they see how it's different from what they are doing and change, or would they pull in and criticize what my new church is doing (both churches have nearly identical beliefs)?" Sad to say, I think they wouldn't see the difference, and that's why it seems cult-like to me. Not that their beliefs are totally out of whack but that they are clueless about what could be different, and different is a threat. Different must be labeled and explained away. Different must submit to authority whether or not there COULD be a different way of looking at things because we must preserve unity at all times. (Now we're getting closer to cult-like, but it's still not mandatory or coercive in a detectable way to most.) I think the people involved were simply heavily invested in their ideas and saw pitfalls on all sides. I don't think they were malicious. I think they may have been overcorrecting for things they've had bad experiences with in the past.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You experienced legalism.  The cure for legalism is grace.  

[Juniper]

I know I said I wanted book recommendations, but after reading the book descriptions I'm feeling jittery and untrusting toward these authors. I have a probably illogical feeling that they want to control me and pressure me to think like them. I didn't expect this reaction to reading book descriptions. So, I'm altering my request. I don't want to tackle this by reading a book. Talking/typing it out, sharing, caring, etc. is more comfortable to me. Please excuse my waffling.

I can recommend The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I think it may be just what you are looking for. It comes at it from the Psycholigical aspects more than any particular spiritual approach. It shows how particular verses get twisted without having to go into theology (again it stay pretty firm in psychological). There may be a few exceptions, but it is the best resource I have discovered for dealing with this.

 

 

(((((Hugs)))))

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I am still pretty new around here, so forgive for asking, but do you have a new church home or are your currently free from all religion? I noticed your signature says you're Orthodox, which makes me wonder whether or not you have spoken to a priest about this. Is there a priest you know and trust that you could talk to if you haven't already? I know my own priest had to get out of a cult-like religion in his youth which means he would have a very good perspective... I imagine many others would, too. (((Hugs)))

 

Edited for clarity.

[Juniper]

Have you let yourself get angry at them yet? Not just at the mindset, but at the people that embraced them and still embrace them? You do not have to stay in anger and it is not a sin, but it is a part of the path to forgiveness, healing and peace. It is very difficult to heal from what we don't forgive and it is impossible to forgive what we do not accept as a wound. It is okay to feel the anger.

 

 

Now, you may have already gone through that phase. For me, the next phase was prompted by my Priest. I confessed that I was stuck, I had forgiven the wound and could even find blessing in it, but I was still stuck. He quietly mentioned that it might be time to forgive myself. Ugh, that was two years ago. Next phase.....honestly? ......forgiving God. I can tell you that I finally got there 3 months ago.

 

8 yrs. it has taken me 8yrs to get to a place where I feel *healed* (from a specific traumatic wound) and hopeful.....excited......free. Intellectually I had worked through things years ago, but I could not connect my mind to my heart.

 

I also do not want to make it sound like it was 8 yrs of bitterness and pain. It wasn't. There were beautiful moments mixed in and they even outweighed the bad. For the first time I remember the hopefulness and excitement I felt when I first decided to go to seminary......and I feel that again. Not a desire to go to seminary, but the hope, confidence and Joy in life with a Good God.

[JenniferB]

I am still pretty new around here, so forgive for asking, but do you have a new church home or are your currently free from all religion? I noticed your signature says you're Orthodox, which makes me wonder whether or not you have spoken to a priest about this. Is there a priest you know and trust that you could talk to if you haven't already? I know my own priest had to get out of a cult-like religion in his youth which means he would have a very good perspective... I imagine many others would, too. (((Hugs)))

 

Edited for clarity.

I do have a wonderful priest. He knows all the painful things and he even went through them with us and counseled us along the way. At the time I thought it was just a painful situation we were going through at their hands. He has helped a lot. I think I'm experiencing a new layer of the onion being peeled away. I'm not sure how to involve my priest, but I'll consider that.

[JenniferB]

Have you let yourself get angry at them yet? Not just at the mindset, but at the people that embraced them and still embrace them?

No, not really.

[Little Nyssa]

Nothing helpful to say here... But just wanted to give you a ((hug))

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Do you think that the pain is mostly centered on the feeling of being shunned and rejected by people you thought of as friends?

[JenniferB]

Yes. The shunning, perceived by some - obvious by others, is the ongoing thing.

[LucyStoner]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck.

 

Sometimes the key to healing is coming to terms with, and being brutally honest with yourself about, what they are and did. The fact that they are "nice people" doesn't make them uncultish.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

Yes. I know the feeling all too well. My experience is more centered around a charismatic, narcissistic personality that has been very successful at gaining sympathy from many people I was once close to. It's very difficult to build a new circle of friends where this person has no influence, but in small towns the popular person has many *fans* and I refuse to feed the beast so I just quietly let people think what they want. It's a terrible feeling to be abandoned by those you once loved dearly. This is the issue I bring to confession most often-the desire to be vindicated.

[Alenee]

Yes. The shunning, perceived by some - obvious by others, is the ongoing thing.

 

It may be that I just worked a 12 hour shift but and am exhausted, but I'm tearing up as I read your post and the replies.  I deal with the feelings of loss, anger, bitterness, loneliness, etc. every day.  Especially this year as my sweet younger dds don't seem to have any friends anymore.  Not much more to add at this hour of the night, er, morning.  I'll probably write more tomorrow.  Love to you!

[shanvan]

I can recommend The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. I think it may be just what you are looking for. It comes at it from the Psycholigical aspects more than any particular spiritual approach. It shows how particular verses get twisted without having to go into theology (again it stay pretty firm in psychological). There may be a few exceptions, but it is the best resource I have discovered for dealing with this.

 

 

(((((Hugs)))))

:iagree: I can also recommend the book.  I rarely agree with every viewpoint presented in a book, and I'm sure that is true of this book as well, but it definitely helped me to feel sane when we were leaving our church for reasons similar to those you mentioned.  It is taking us a long time to get over our experiences at our old church.  Recently I took my Dc to a funeral there b/c we just had to honor the memory of the woman who died, but it opened everything up again, and we definitely experienced some shunning and cold shoulders, which hurt me especially for my Dc.  One thing the funeral did for me, though was to reaffirm our decision to leave.  Since we had been gone so long, it was easier for me to see the legalism (as Jean mentioned).  

 

I do believe there are many sincere Christian people at the church, but sadly we cannot stay involved with them b/c to be 'Christian' has come to equal believing and  following whatever the pastor says in his sermon.  They did wage a minor campaign to get us to go back to church there.  I was so relieved when the phone calls and postcards stopped.  

[Beth in OH]

The book I'm going to recommend comes at this from a different angle.  The book is called The Search for Significance, which is a study on who we are in Christ.  You read a chapter in the first half of the book and then work through the corresponding study in the 2nd half.  A counselor recommended this book to me when I was in an emotionally destructive situation, and it helped me work through some things inside me that contributed to how I reacted to and felt about the situation.  I couldn't control or change the situation, but I could control whether I grew and healed apart from it.  

 

I'm also going to recommend the book The Emotionally Destructive Relationship, by Leslie Vernick.  This is also a Christian book, and she has a  website as well.  She is very empowering about helping a person look at the destructive relationship, see the destructive sin patterns for what they are, and make empowered choices about what to do.   Her voice is one that is often lacking in the Christian counseling world--perhaps it would resonate with you.

 

Healing is a journey, and it's not only about getting over something.  It's also about learning so that the same patterns don't repeat themselves.  I wish you peace.

[Juniper]

The book helped me call a spade a spade.

 

 

Forgiving myself was a different matter. You see.......I stayed. I stayed in a church that was devastatingly damaging. I stayed even when I felt the horrible shame of being forced too choose between my sexual independence and wanting to keep my world intact (relationships, income).......and chose to try and keep my world intact.

 

Then there was the realization that I had dragged my kids through it along with me. I had taught them an unhealthy extreme of respect, demanded an unrealistic form of obedience, projected fears and motivations onto them that they were never meant to carry. Led them into relationships that were then ripped from them. Those are the broad strokes, there are so many layers to the way in which I parented.

 

I re-share my journey to tell you this. You are right where you need to be. You are right it is layers.....and layers....and layers. What happened to you was real. It was not right. Yes, you had some wonderful support in your priest walking the path with you, but the hooks were in deep,and the wound is deep. It is okay to lance the wound, to cry, to grieve what was lost. It is suffering in a healthy way.

 

And it is ok to forgive yourself. You know how in EO we hear priests talk about penance on rare occasion? How the goal is to be united with the church and the penitent member has usually punished themselves enough by the time they confess the situation to the Priest? In a sense, this is what I was doing to myself in grieving and feeling shame, but after awhile I needed to forgive myself. To rest in the grace and mercy of God and know that he can heal all wounds.....even those I walked myself into. My priest was able to see that I was punishing myself and it was time to forgive me.

 

God is with you as you grieve the loss and he is with you as continue to heal. You don't have to hold it altogether, you do not have to handle yourself according to their standard of what is appropriate and Godly.....your job is to get yourself to a safe place and heal. (By the way, I think you are already doing that) ;)

 

 

(((((Hugs Dear One)))))) you and your family are in my thoughts. Also please feel free to completely ignore anything I say that does not seem to fit your situation. You will not offend me :)

[ThisIsTheDay]

Have you let yourself get angry at them yet?

 

For me, I just feel overwhelming sadness for them.  They made the wrong choice by continuing.

 

I ran into a former close (church) friend last week.  He told me about the troubles they've had with their son (which I already knew through FB). Ny instinct is to say casually , Oh, I'm so sorry.  I have a guardedness that I can't shake.  But I laid it out and said, "My heart just breaks for you. I can't imagine how painful this has been," because that is so true. But we could see this coming by what was playing out, and that's why we left. At the time, they said they shared our concerns, but they decided to stay.

 

I still think about these families a lot, because I honestly am so SAD for all of them, even the ones who shunned us. It's been four years.

[Juniper]

For me, I just feel overwhelming sadness for them. They made the wrong choice by continuing.

 

I ran into a former close (church) friend last week. He told me about the troubles they've had with their son (which I already knew through FB). Ny instinct is to say casually , Oh, I'm so sorry. I have a guardedness that I can't shake. But I laid it out and said, "My heart just breaks for you. I can't imagine how painful this has been," because that is so true. But we could see this coming by what was playing out, and that's why we left. At the time, they said they shared our concerns, but they decided to stay.

 

I still think about these families a lot, because I honestly am so SAD for all of them, even the ones who shunned us. It's been four years.

Yeah, I am there ....... Now. Sometimes, I still cycle a bit through the phases of grief, but the anger has been replaced by a sense of bewilderment.

 

I think how much anger we end up dealing with is in relation to how violating the experience was. Did it occur in part in the home? When that happens you cannot even look at where someone was sitting without a memory (although they mercifully fade:)) Things like that. Sometimes it takes awhile to see how deep the wound went.

 

((((Hugs)))) I always feel for people who go through these things, but there is also an exquisite beauty that comes out on the other side.

[ThisIsTheDay]

I think how much anger we end up dealing with is in relation to how violating the experience was.

 

I am sure you are right.  We saw things early on and got out, were only affected peripherally, not personally.  I don't have a reason to be angry.

 

JenniferB, Juniper, and the others here who have been hurt-- :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

[elegantlion]

In my case, the hurt was not directed at me, but I fell under the "leadership charm" of  - trying to be tactful here - someone who was not as they seem. Most of this happened after my family had moved but I was still in contact with many people from there. When it all fell apart and I asked someone who I had spent years trusting, they led me to believe a lie, it was implied and intentional. I didn't believe it at the time because this person had been my child's authority in church and in my gut I knew better. Once I found out the truth, it hurt deeply. Because I spent years with this person that lied to me, trusting them and I knew what I was being told was not the truth. They had chosen sides. As I looked back at the events, certain things stood out, and, honestly, it made much of my devotion I had to the church (yes the group, not to God) seem like a well-crafted illusion, one that many of us were led to carry out. 

 

At this point, I'm pretty much done with organized religion - this was a step in the process not the entirety of it. I have since moved back to the area and drive by the building where the church was housed (it's a different church now) quite often. I feel anger and betrayed. I spent many years in volunteer work there, helping in ministry, at times I was at church 4-5 time a week. I am not angry at God. I am angry at my ex-friend who has no clue how her deceiving me violated everything I thought we both held dear. I feel angry for those that were directly hurt in the process. I feel like I wasted years of my life doing something simply because I filled a box not because it's what I should have been doing. The system was set up so that one man had too much power and many were deceived and betrayed in the process. It ended up hurting an entire community and it was wrapped up in pretty paper and a bow.  

[J-rap]

I'm sorry you're going through that.  A close relative of mine is going through something similar.  She really gave so much to her church (I mean, lots and lots of volunteer hours, etc.), but the church just seemed to get more and more caught up with legalism and authority.  If you questioned the leaderships' decisions, then your faith was questioned.  I will say that the congregation has a lot of  sweet, good people.  But, the authority thing can be dangerous, and I think a weird type of pride enters in.

 

This relative left the church, and even though she knows she did the right thing, she feels badly that no one is making the effort to reach out to her or try and get her to come back or even talk to her about it.  But, she was pretty outspoken so they are probably relieved.  :)