Tricky family situation...is there anything we can do here? Long

[UncleEJ]

My family and I are in a tricky situation with my brother and I thought maybe someone here might have some insight or advice. (Sorry, it's long!)

 

My brother (who I will call J) is 24 years old and is a relationship with a girl (who I will call M) who is 22. They have been together for four years now but it has always been rocky. At the time they meet, they lived in the same town, but two years ago J and our dad moved about four hours north of were M lives. At the same time M went off to college not terribly far from J's home. About twice a month J would go pick up M from college on the weekend and she would stay with him for couple days. During this time they were sexual active.

 

In oct/nov of that first year M was in college, she found out she was pregnant. It was unexpected and a huge surprise. A few months later she admitted to J that she had slept with a couple other guys while at college and she wasn't sure that J was the father. But the timing of the pregnancy lined up with when they had been together. She claimed that the encounters she had with other guys were all while she was drunk and she claimed she has little memory of the events (nobody, including J, believes this story. I personally feel like she was taking advantage of the fact she was able to have a boyfriend and sleep around at the same time.) Anyway, J is obviously very upset and doesn't know what to do. He ends up deciding to stay with M at least until they find out if the baby is his.

 

Fast forward to the baby's birth. Based on blood types, there is no way baby L is J's son. Again J is distraught. And again he decides to stay with M and claim baby L as his own. Now this is were the real trouble starts. M's parents are awful to J. They do not respect him at all. J will never be good enough for them. M's dad is an ER Dr and he has an attitude that he is far superior to just about everybody. Her family's opinion of my family (J included) is that we are straight up white trash (not true!) They believe that he will never be able to support M and baby L. Now J has a good paying job, his own apartment, brand new truck, pays all his bills and good easily support M and L. He is just as well off as DH and myself were when we had our first child.

 

After M found out she was pregnant, she dropped out of college and moved back to her parents house. Her parents have COMPLETE control over everything she does, with herself and her kid. Because she lives in their house, they can control her. And if she were to move out, they would cut her off. M grew up with money and I think she is afraid to lose that (J makes good money, but definitely not a dr wage).

 

For the past two years, J has tried to be a good boyfriend to M as he can. And also to be a father to L, although her parents basically will not allow it. J and M are barely able to see each other and when they do her parents sabotage it. J and M fight all the time. J can be kind of controlling and M is stubborn as all get out. This doesn't make the greatest combination. Just seeing them together, one can tell, it's not a good match. Plus, J is miserable. He recently moved back to M's home town to be closer to her and L. This has only made things worse. They fight even more and her parents hate of J is even more evident. One would think that the fact he stuck with her even though she cheated on him and gave birth to a child that was not his, would be enough to say he is a good guy. But no, they don't seem to think so.

 

The rest of the family (me, my mom and step-dad, my dad and step-mom, DH) are at our outwits end. J is so very obviously miserable with M, but he still loves her and L. Every week it is something else that they are fighting about or her parents have said or done. None of us can see any path for them that leads to happiness. But what can you say? He has come close to breaking it off with her a number of times but changes his mind. I believe that no one can tell other person that they shouldn't be with someone. But is there anything we can say or do? Besides just keep on supporting him? It is getting so hard to see him hurting and hear about everything over and over. J is a pretty sensitive guy and doesn't take criticism very well at all. He get very defensive, very quickly.

 

Sorry this got so long! Anyone have any words of wisdom?

[BigMamaBird]

I'd get a lawyer involved and arrange for visitation or partial custody.  If a judge says he is entitled to X amount of time, the girl's family can't say boo.

[Anne in CA]

I am sorry, but he is going to have to walk though this and bear the hurt that these people are determined to inflict on him. He sounds like a great guy, but too easy to manipulate. He really needs to talk to someone outside the family with perspective. Right now the worst thing that could happen is that he marry this girl, but it sounds like that won't happen. If he allowed himself to be put on the birth certificate he may end up paying a boat load of child support with interest some day when this girl does end it with her parents, because that is how this girl is going to operate based on the limited info I have from your post. When I was his age I almost married the wrong person, but some random people on a train managed to make me see reason. It this day I thank God for those people, they were guardian angels. They were wise and had personal experience and kept me from marrying an alcoholic. But friends and family who told me the same things just did not make sense to me at that time. They were too close to me and I didn't respect them as much as I should have.

[bettyandbob]

Does M's parents know the baby is not Js?

 

Is J listed as the father on the birth certificate?

 

Longterm does J want to be the father of this child whether or not he is with M? I do not see from the description how he can have a longterm relationship with M. She sounds way to immature and if she broke off from her parents she might still not handle the relationship with J appropriately. 

 

If J is only trying to be a father to the baby so he can be in a relationship with M, then I think he needs to step back. I think he needs to end his relationship with M. And I think he needs to get legal help ending his relationship and responsibility to the baby.   If he has the DNA testing he should be able to do this. He needs to do that now--the longer it goes on the worse it will be. 

 

 

[Jennifer3141]

There needs to be a paternity test NOW. It's time your brother asserted his rights as a father if he is a father to the child. Otherwise, it's time for him to walk away.

[Tap]

Honestly, it doesn't matter how good of a person Either of them are.  It doesn't matter if they are both amazing parents.  If the relationship isn't working, it isn't working!  The child isn't his and while he can play part time daddy, it isn't the bio parent and has no legal claim to the child.

 

It sounds like they do love each other, or else they wouldn't still be together after all of this drama, but love doesn't make a healthy relationship by itself.  I am sorry, but I would urge your brother to move on if he is willing to. 

 

The parents of the girl may be seeing the socioeconomic differences, but honestly that can be just one of the reasons.  The 4 years of a bad relationship and personality differences make me suspect that the family is pushing for the breakup more due to those, than finances.  Who wants that kind of a relationship for their child and grandchild?

[UncleEJ]

There needs to be a paternity test NOW. It's time your brother asserted his rights as a father if he is a father to the child. Otherwise, it's time for him to walk away.

At birth his and the baby's blood types were incompatible. About a year later they did a paternity test and he is most definitely NOT the father.

[Spryte]

Who is the father, then? Don't they think that baby L deserves to know? And the bio father, too?

 

In some states, if a man assumes responsibility for a baby for long enough, it essentially becomes legal. Something to consider.

[UncleEJ]

Does M's parents know the baby is not Js?

 

Is J listed as the father on the birth certificate?

 

Longterm does J want to be the father of this child whether or not he is with M? I do not see from the description how he can have a longterm relationship with M. She sounds way to immature and if she broke off from her parents she might still not handle the relationship with J appropriately.

 

If J is only trying to be a father to the baby so he can be in a relationship with M, then I think he needs to step back. I think he needs to end his relationship with M. And I think he needs to get legal help ending his relationship and responsibility to the baby. If he has the DNA testing he should be able to do this. He needs to do that now--the longer it goes on the worse it will be.

Yes, M's parents know that J is not the father. He is not listed on the birth certificate. And a paternity test was done. In fact, before the paternity was know, J wanted to be put on the birth certificate and M's parents flat out refused to let it happen. Even if the baby would have been his.

 

I think that long term he would love to be the father of the baby, with or without M. But I truly believe that would be impossible. He has no legal rights and her parents would never allow that (and she won't stand up to them). I think that he is staying with her mainly because he wants to be a father to the baby, not the other way around. He truly loves that little boy.

[hillfarm]

J needs to step back and allow L's father to man up to help care for the child he created. He also needs to realize that loving someone sometimes means  the heart wrenching work of doing what's best for them, not what we would prefer to do. J can't fix M's relationship with her controlling family. He can't make her love him. He can't make L be his biological child (if he isn't). He needs to back off. I'm sorry that he will experience a broken heart, but unfortunately, there is nothing he can do to fix things.

 

It would be wonderful if love was enough. But sad to say, it is not. J made a bad choice and now he is having to experience the consequences. Pray for him, come along side him with love and support, introduce him to as many nice women as you can. But tell him straight up that the only thing ahead for him in his current situation is a lot of heartache. And probably not just for him, but for all involved. It would likely be kinder to the child to let the real father come into his life and to stop trying to force a relationship guaranteed to cause more conflict in the child's life.

[alef]

At birth his and the baby's blood types were incompatible. About a year later they did a paternity test and he is most definitely NOT the father.

Is he or is he not listed on the birth certificate?

[UncleEJ]

There needs to be a paternity test NOW. It's time your brother asserted his rights as a father if he is a father to the child. Otherwise, it's time for him to walk away.

They did a paternity test and he is not the father. Sorry I forgot to make that clear above.

[UncleEJ]

Is he or is he not listed on the birth certificate?

No, he is not on the birth certificate.

[poppy]

Listen, be supportive and step back. He is an adult and is making reasonable choices in a non-abusive relationship. Respect him enough to not interfere or judge.

 

Now I do think it sounds like an unwise relationship to pursue, don't get me wrong! But he has to figure that out on his own. If he was taking good advice, he wouldn't be where he is right now. My suspicion is that he's in for a lot of heartbreak ahead. The girl won't break with her family for his sake, even though they are not good to him, and that speaks volumes. He will need a neutral party to comfort him through this more than he needs anything else you can offer. Is my guess.

[UncleEJ]

Who is the father, then? Don't they think that baby L deserves to know? And the bio father, too?

 

In some states, if a man assumes responsibility for a baby for long enough, it essentially becomes legal. Something to consider.

No one knows who the biological father is. Either she truly doesn't know or she is keeping very quiet.

[UncleEJ]

Listen, be supportive and step back. He is an adult and is making reasonable choices in a non-abusive relationship. Respect him enough to not interfere or judge.

 

Now I do think it sounds like an unwise relationship to pursue, don't get me wrong! But he has to figure that out on his own. If he was taking good advice, he wouldn't be where he is right now. My suspicion is that he's in for a lot of heartbreak ahead. The girl won't break with her family for his sake, even though they are not good to him, and that speaks volumes. He will need a neutral party to comfort him through this more than he needs anything else you can offer. Is my guess.

Thank you. This is what we have been doing so far. It's so hard to see him hurting. Ugh :-(

[Spryte]

No one knows who the biological father is. Either she truly doesn't know or she is keeping very quiet.

Oh, how sad. I'm sorry they are all in this position.

[Jean in Newcastle]

He can't make himself the father of a child that is not his.   He can try to be in M and the child's life but if M (whether with input from her parents or not) doesn't want him in her life, then he cannot force himself on them.  I agree with the advice to support him emotionally but to allow him to learn from the situation on his own.

[Liz CA]

I am wondering if there are issues with your brother? A hisotry of co-dependency, perhaps? He sounds like a young man who desperately wants to love someone and be loved - even in the face of despicable treatment. I am wondering why it is so difficult for him to cut ties with such toxic people? It may get worse if the child and he form a bond and then he is yanked out of their lives because of the mother, her family and who knows what circumstances. Time to move on and find a girl with whom he has a chance at a future. I do think he could benefit from some mentoring by an older man or even a counselor.

 

Having said all that, since he is an adult, all you can do is wait until he asks you for advice or your opinion and then gently tell him how toxic the whole relationship is.

[UncleEJ]

I am wondering if there are issues with your brother? A hisotry of co-dependency, perhaps? He sounds like a young man who desperately wants to love someone and be loved - even in the face of despicable treatment. I am wondering why it is so difficult for him to cut ties with such toxic people? It may get worse if the child and he form a bond and then he is yanked out of their lives because of the mother, her family and who knows what circumstances. Time to move on and find a girl with whom he has a chance at a future. I do think he could benefit from some mentoring by an older man or even a counselor.

 

Having said all that, since he is an adult, all you can do is wait until he asks you for advice or your opinion and then gently tell him how toxic the whole relationship is.

There very well may be some issues with him. He has always been the type to try and make friends at whatever cost. He has always had friends that walked all over him and talked him into anything. I am not sure where this comes from with him. My parents divorced when he was young? I don't know.

[Trish]

There is a biological father out there, he should be found in case he wants involvement, and so he can fulfill any legal obligations. I'd work on seeing what comes of that before trying to cement this as One Big Unhappy Family.

[Liz CA]

There very well may be some issues with him. He has always been the type to try and make friends at whatever cost. He has always had friends that walked all over him and talked him into anything. I am not sure where this comes from with him. My parents divorced when he was young? I don't know.

 

Can you think of an older man with similar interests as your brother? Are you involved in a church, group activities, clubs? If he received some encouragement and mentoring, he would perhaps feel loved and more worthy and then examine some decisions in the new light of self-respect.

 

[Impish]

Honestly, I think it's a MYOB situation. He's an adult, and the choices are his alone to make, and the consequences his to deal with.

 

You can be a shoulder for him, but stepping back is really all you can do, b/c there's 0 way you have of impacting the situation. And, any comments you might make, for or against the situation, may come back to bite you in the butt.

[elfgivas]

how very hard!  i'm sorry.

 

"just because you love someone doesn't mean you can live with them."

 

if he can read a book on boundaries and come to see how setting healthy boundaries could help everyone, then that might help? 

 

in our family, my brother and i would talk things thru, and i would make suggestions, including councilling for help to see if there is something he could try that might help.

then, i'd follow up once a week for a few weeks to see if he had made an appt.

then, if he hadn't, the next time he started to talk about it, i'd close it down. 

 

this is not hypothetical.  my brother was engaged to a person with borderline personality disorder.  i was supportive until i met her.  then i said to him that i was sure she had good parts to her, but that watching the manipulation broke my heart, and i couldn't support it, but i loved him.  fast forward a year.  at the critical moment he hears my voice saying, "watching her manipulate you breaks my heart.  you are a good guy.  you deserve a healthy relationship".... and he walked.  it might not have ended that way, but i didn't want to have to be explaining to him years later why i hadn't said something earlier.

 

ymmv,

ann

 

 

 

[elfgivas]

the story of the frog in the water might help you both have language to talk about it.

http://www.lessons4living.com/wmaz_week200.htm

 

he is in this position in part because he is a good guy, and made one choice and then another choice and then another choice....

and the water that was once lovely is now really pretty hot. 

 

good luck!

ann

[UncleEJ]

There is a biological father out there, he should be found in case he wants involvement, and so he can fulfill any legal obligations. I'd work on seeing what comes of that before trying to cement this as One Big Unhappy Family.

I would tend to agree with you, but from what I understand, M and her family have absolutely zero desire to figure out who the guy is. It is almost as if her parents her relieved that they don't know because then they can have that much more control.

[UncleEJ]

how very hard! i'm sorry.

 

"just because you love someone doesn't mean you can live with them."

 

if he can read a book on boundaries and come to see how setting healthy boundaries could help everyone, then that might help?

 

in our family, my brother and i would talk things thru, and i would make suggestions, including councilling for help to see if there is something he could try that might help.

then, i'd follow up once a week for a few weeks to see if he had made an appt.

then, if he hadn't, the next time he started to talk about it, i'd close it down.

 

this is not hypothetical. my brother was engaged to a person with borderline personality disorder. i was supportive until i met her. then i said to him that i was sure she had good parts to her, but that watching the manipulation broke my heart, and i couldn't support it, but i loved him. fast forward a year. at the critical moment he hears my voice saying, "watching her manipulate you breaks my heart. you are a good guy. you deserve a healthy relationship".... and he walked. it might not have ended that way, but i didn't want to have to be explaining to him years later why i hadn't said something earlier.

 

ymmv,

ann

Thank you.

[Danestress]

<<<One would think that the fact he stuck with her even though she cheated on him and gave birth to a child that was not his, would be enough to say he is a good guy. But no, they don't seem to think so.>>>
 

 

Not at all.   Good and bad people both are capable of behaving this way - wanting to be with someone despite the fact that they have cheated.  It takes so much more than that to be a "good guy," which isn't to say that your brother isn't a good guy.  I believe you that he is.  But making a decent living and sticking with an unfaithful woman aren't really enough, and would not be anywhere *near* enough for me to think a guy was good enough for my daughter.  In fact, it would make me a bit worried in this case, because I would not want her to think that her past mistakes make her beholden to a young man, or that she should settle for the wrong person because she is vulnerable and he's offering her and the child a home.  I would not want the man in my daughter's life to feel that he gets some extra credit just for being with her and having a job.

 

The bottom line is that this girl is making choices.  She is choosing to live with her parents.  She is choosing to depend on them economically. She is choosing not to move in with your brother or marry him, assuming he has even offered.  She is the parent here, and apparently the only one on the scene.  She has to do what is best for her child, and no one would think that a miserable, argument filled relationship is the right place to raise this child.  Perhaps she actually thinks the child is better of living with her parents.  Maybe she is choosing economic dependency on her parents rather than dependency on your brother. Or maybe she is afraid to make choices, and living with her parents just feels like something temporary to fall back on, rather than a real decision. 

 

When I first read your post, my initial thought was that the girl's parents and your family are really on the same page.  None of you think this couple should stay together.  The only difference is that your family thinks it is because she is a cheating, greedy, stubborn girl, and her family thinks .... well, who knows what they really think about your brother and why they don't like him. 

 

And I wonder if maybe your brother is stuck here because he feels that ending the relationship would confirm that her parents are right - that he is a loser and a jerk.  He might need to hear from people in his life that breaking up with a girl is ok - it doesn't make a guy a jerk. Even if the girl and her parents are upset and angry, it's still ok.  Good men break up with women.  Good men break women's hearts sometimes.  It's ok.  You don't stay together or marry the wrong woman because you are afraid of the judgment of others AND when you do break up with a girl, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her.  I actually think sometimes it's harder for a guy to break up with a woman when his family has disliked that woman, because it feels like saying,  "You were right.  She really was a mistake."

 

Also, having a child there makes this harder.  Your brother would have no legal leg to stand on regarding this child.  He isn't the bio Dad, he isn't on a birth certificate, the child has not lived with him or considered him a Dad.  So if he breaks up with the Mom, he is going to lose the child too, and he may be very sad about that, and also may feel like it's giving up an image he really wanted. Perhaps he really wanted people (especially her parents) to recognize that he could be a great Dad.  Perhaps he is afraid that if he ends the relationship, people will say to M, "See, we told you he didn't really love L and wasn't ready to be a father."  So he is in a really tough position. 

 

I do also want to say (regarding the bio Dad) that it makes sense to me that a women who hooks up with a  couple of young guys might choose to "not know" who the Dad is.  Obviously we all feel like a child has a right to know both of his parents, but as a young woman, I can see it.  I can see choosing to just not put it out there - feeling that seeking child support might open me up to custody or visitation obligations to a man I might really not want my child to be around.  I might believe that if my own father were willing to support us financially, it would be better to just "not know" which man is the Dad, so that I don't have some guy in my life trying to parent my child.  I am not saying this is the right thing to do, but I I understand the temptation.  If she hooked up with some drunk kid as a frat party, you can be pretty sure she didn't see the side of him that would give her confidence in his ability to co-parent the child.  

 

Anyway, I feel for you.  You may not have any power here, but it's still hurts to see a sibling suffer. 

 

[Mama Geek]

My guess is he knows that you all think he would be better off leaving the relationship for good.  I would suggest telling him that you love him and that you can no longer want to be involved in hearing about the problems with him and M.  His problems that he is choosing to have don't have to become your problems too.  

 

My brother was in a very bad marriage.  Everyone but him could see there would be problems long before they got married.  We did finally tell him that we didn't want to hear about it anymore.  He has come to the realization on his own that it is not going to work out.  As soon as he has enough money, he is filing for divorce.  You can't fix problems that are not yours and this something he is going to have to figure out.  

[Alicia64]

There needs to be a paternity test NOW. It's time your brother asserted his rights as a father if he is a father to the child. Otherwise, it's time for him to walk away.

 

I'm just looking at it this way: I wouldn't want one of my sons involved in something so unhealthy. If the girl was raised w/ a snooty dad who has money -- she'll eventually turn on your brother for not providing to her standards. It may not happen now, but it's a strong possibility for the future. I grew up in a "princess" environment w/ other princesses. Not healthy for the princesses' boyfriend or husband. They spend their entire lives trying to make the princess happy. I'm in princess recovery, but my princess tendencies still kick in at times.

 

If it were one of my sons going through something so awful I'm betting I'd plan a well organized intervention -- possibly with a therapist. In this case, a male therapist. Somebody your brother can look up to. Not somebody your brother will roll his eyes at.

 

Remember, he's attached to this girl. In his mind he loves her. Plus s*# is involved -- that's bonding for a young man. (For any of us.) So tread carefully.

 

Plenty of vulnerability on your part might help him also be vulnerable and talk.

 

That's the route I'd take. Spiritually, I believe we're all here to learn certain lessons. He may be on the precisely right path for him. You may just need to let him walk through the fire. I'm so sorry. I'd start w/ an intervention w/ an awesome therapist.

 

:grouphug:

 

Alley

[katilac]

<snip>

 

If it were one of my sons going through something so awful I'm betting I'd plan a well organized intervention -- possibly with a therapist. In this case, a male therapist. Somebody your brother can look up to. Not somebody your brother will roll his eyes at. <snip> 

 

Alley

 

I would consider this an incredibly intrusive violation, and distance myself from family members who consider it acceptable to stage an intervention of my love life. He's a grown man! We all hate to see loved ones suffer, but every person needs to live their own life. 

 

OP, I think all you can do is hope for the best. He's an adult, and we all have the right to make our own mistakes. Personally, I wouldn't be willing to listen to him complain over and over - it serves no purpose other than feeding into to his personal addiction to the drama.  He knows what she's like, he knows what her family is like. It's up to him to make a change if that's what he wants. 

[Alicia64]

I would consider this an incredibly intrusive violation, and distance myself from family members who consider it acceptable to stage an intervention of my love life. He's a grown man! We all hate to see loved ones suffer, but every person needs to live their own life. 

 

OP, I think all you can do is hope for the best. He's an adult, and we all have the right to make our own mistakes. Personally, I wouldn't be willing to listen to him complain over and over - it serves no purpose other than feeding into to his personal addiction to the drama.  He knows what she's like, he knows what her family is like. It's up to him to make a change if that's what he wants. 

 

Good point. It's the OP's brother, but I did say, "if it were one of my sons. . ." meaning I don't think I'd easily watch my son doing something like this.

[lavender's green]

I basically agree with most people here, but I wanted to add that sometimes people in these situations make the relationship work out their personal and interpersonal problems, get married, settle down, and build a family.  And you can't ever take back words you once said about their spouse.  People have very long memories where their spouses are concerned.  Now, I don't actually think this will happen; I'm just pointing out the possibility, because I've seen it happen.

 

I really hope this guy sees the light and moves on.  There's so much unhealthiness going on.  And I hope he moves on before the child builds a strong bond with him, because he has absolutely no legal standing and it'll break the kid's heart if the mother's family tells him to get lost for good.

[UncleEJ]

I basically agree with most people here, but I wanted to add that sometimes people in these situations make the relationship work out their personal and interpersonal problems, get married, settle down, and build a family. And you can't ever take back words you once said about their spouse. People have very long memories where their spouses are concerned. Now, I don't actually think this will happen; I'm just pointing out the possibility, because I've seen it happen.

 

I really hope this guy sees the light and moves on. There's so much unhealthiness going on. And I hope he moves on before the child builds a strong bond with him, because he has absolutely no legal standing and it'll break the kid's heart if the mother's family tells him to get lost for good.

We have all tried to be really careful what we say about her when the subject comes up. I have tried to phrase things like " how she acts..." Or "her family..." Not things like she is awful, but talking about her actions.

[UncleEJ]

 

If it were one of my sons going through something so awful I'm betting I'd plan a well organized intervention -- possibly with a therapist. In this case, a male therapist. Somebody your brother can look up to. Not somebody your brother will roll his eyes at.

 

 

:grouphug:

 

Alley

This is what I REALLY want to do. In fact my mom mentioned it. But ultimately I know that it is not the right thing to do. I think he will feel betrayed and defensive.

[UncleEJ]

<<<One would think that the fact he stuck with her even though she cheated on him and gave birth to a child that was not his, would be enough to say he is a good guy. But no, they don't seem to think so.>>>

 

 

And I wonder if maybe your brother is stuck here because he feels that ending the relationship would confirm that her parents are right - that he is a loser and a jerk. He might need to hear from people in his life that breaking up with a girl is ok - it doesn't make a guy a jerk. Even if the girl and her parents are upset and angry, it's still ok. Good men break up with women. Good men break women's hearts sometimes. It's ok. You don't stay together or marry the wrong woman because you are afraid of the judgment of others AND when you do break up with a girl, it doesn't mean there is anything wrong with her. I actually think sometimes it's harder for a guy to break up with a woman when his family has disliked that woman, because it feels like saying, "You were right. She really was a mistake."

 

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here. My mom has often said that she thinks he stays with her to prove her dad wrong. He is the type of person who hates to be proven wrong and has a deep need to be accepted and loved.

[albeto.]

We have all tried to be really careful what we say about her when the subject comes up. I have tried to phrase things like " how she acts..." Or "her family..." Not things like she is awful, but talking about her actions.

 

Gently, I would encourage you to stop doing that. He knows what you think of her. He knows what your family thinks of her. Having to field not-so-subtle hints during a time like this is just adding to his emotional and mental burdens. If you want to help him and support him, stop talking about this altogether. Stop talking with your family behind his back. Stop giving him advice. Let him know that whatever decision he comes up with you'll support (if in fact you will). Eventually he'll figure out that he's got to wait for her to make a choice - her parents or him. He's not in control here, and none of his family can help him get in control. This decision is hers to make, and it is completely out of his control. Comments that suggest to him what he should know or do aren't helpful; they're divisive. You're pitting his loyalty between her and you, and I'm not so sure that's the message you want to send. 

[UncleEJ]

 

"just because you love someone doesn't mean you can live with them."

 

 

 

ymmv,

ann

This! My dad was in a relationship with a women after he and my mom divorced. They were madly in love but horrible for each other. It was a very toxic relationship and they ended up breaking it off. It took about ten years. My brother witnessed all of this and my dad has very gently tried to talk to him about it. He has said that sometimes there are people in you life that will fall in love with but you are not meant to be with them. It is like my brother is in the exact same situation.

[UncleEJ]

Gently, I would encourage you to stop doing that. He knows what you think of her. He knows what your family thinks of her. Having to field not-so-subtle hints during a time like this is just adding to his emotional and mental burdens. If you want to help him and support him, stop talking about this altogether. Stop talking with your family behind his back. Stop giving him advice. Let him know that whatever decision he comes up with you'll support (if in fact you will). Eventually he'll figure out that he's got to wait for her to make a choice - her parents or him. He's not in control here, and none of his family can help him get in control. This decision is hers to make, and it is completely out of his control. Comments that suggest to him what he should know or do aren't helpful; they're divisive. You're pitting his loyalty between her and you, and I'm not so sure that's the message you want to send.

This is good advice, thank you.

[bolt.]

I'm on the "don't involve yourself" side of things, as expressed by previous posters. You really have far too much invested in the situation, and you are basically a spectator. It's like getting caught up in a dramatic TV show: to some degree you can't help thinking about things and hoping they go well -- but you aren't able to have any actual effect on the drama. It's best to focus on toning down the intensity of your own feelings. You will rightly be sympathetic to the suffering of a brother... you aren't a cold person... but sympathy is enough.

 

If he seeks you as an advisor, the only advice I'd give in your shoes is this:

 

In order to navigate such a tricky situation, he really needs to be at his best: strong, smart, emotionally healthy, etc. Therefore I'd suggest that he see a qualified therapist in order to gain that kind of strength and stability quickly and efficiently, with minimal bother about "self help" -- It's like an athlete seeking a coach or a personal trainer. They do it because that person is a pro who knows how to get the most out of someone... quickly. People can do it alone, but it can be a bit pokey about it. He probably doesn't really want to take the pokey path with so much at stake and so much complexity to work through.

 

Other than that, my comments would be of the, "Gee, that sounds tough" // "You sound (insert emotion here)." // "Have you had any ideas yet?" -- variety.

[HS Mom in NC]

Your brother needs to consult a lawyer who specializes in family law.  It will clarify for him what he is legally entitled to.  When you are not a biological or legally adoptive parent, you may not have any legal recourse at all.  Then he will know for sure what his options are-if any.

Then he needs to talk to a counselor who specializes in family issues.  If he has some sort of legal standing in this situation, then he needs professional help with establishing boundaries, realistic expectations and interacting with this bunch.  If not, then he needs to hear that his expectations about continuing a relationship may be unrealistic and that it's time to move on.

 

You need to encourage him to seek out help listed above. When he vents frustration, just say, "That really sucks." You don't need to get into the details or advise him unless he specifically asks you to give him advice and phrases it explicitly like, "What advice do you have for me?" Otherwise, stay out of it.